How To Defend The Trinity!

[BeyondET]

Who here has the wisdom of God to know how to be slow to wrath, slow to speak and instead quick to hear ?

Almost but instead backwards, speak and wrath.

John 1:19
Know this, my beloved brothers. But let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow unto anger;

 

[Randy]

Do you worship the Lord Jesus Christ?
Is this against the 1st Commandment?
"I am the Lord They God, You shall have no other God before Me..."
Are you breaking the 1st Commandment?

The Holy Spirit is a Person because He has attributes like a person does.

1. He’s referred to as a Person (John 6:63; 14:26; Rom. 8:11, 16, 26; 1 John 5:6).
2. He speaks (2 Sam. 23:2; Acts 1:16; 8:29; 10:19; 11:12; 13:2; 21:11; 28:25–26; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb. 3:7–8; Rev. 2:7; 14:13; 22:17).
3. He witnesses (John 15:26).
4. He searches (1 Cor. 2:11).
5. He can be grieved (Isa. 63:10; Eph. 4:30).
6. He loves (Rom. 15:30).
7. He has a mind (Rom. 8:27).
8. He has intelligence (1 Cor. 2:10–11).
9. He can be tested (Acts 5:9).
10. He can be resisted (Acts 7:5).
11. He has a will (1 Cor. 2:11; 12:7–11).

source: https://get.tithe.ly/blog/characteristics-of-the-holy-spirit#:~:text=As the third member of,1 John 5:6).

God's Son made the universe.
Right.
This refers back to John 1
1In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2He existed in the beginning with God.
3God created everything through him,
and nothing was created except through him.
4The Word gave life to everything that was created,

You said this in your last paragraph: (highlighted by me)
He has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Who made the universe?
The Son whom you mention...
And the Word who John mentions created everything and John tells us He is God.
The Son and the Word are the same Person.
That Person is called God by John.

Should we trust John?

The Spirit only speaks what He hears. The Spirit of a person acts according to the will the mind of that person.
Those who listen and learn from the Spirit or those who listen and learn from the Father?
It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

The Spirit of God has "God's" nature. It is not bound to flesh. "Deity"
Singular
For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

If you believe God is a person then the Father has His own Spirit that is not another person.

In the last days I will pour out "My Spirit"....

Jesus- The Spirit of the Sovreign is upon me....(The one who sent Him)

And how can the Father live in the Son doing His work except by His own Spirit?

The Spirit proceeds from the Father in "Jesus's" name. Hence the Spirit of Christ. That Spirit in the believe would convey the will and presence of the Son in the believer from hearing the mind of Christ.

As has been shown the Father speaks of that Spirit as His own. Does Jesus?

The Father-pour out "My Spirit"
The Son-But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Acts 2 also states the Spirit Jesus sent, (and it was in His name) He received from the Father.

No mention of the Spirit as a person of honor in the God Head.
One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ.
To Him who sits on the throne and to the lamb.

Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God. Not the person of the Spirit as that Spirit is not a person. The Father is that person.

No mention of the Spirit
The only true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent.

Why the abilities of the Divine Spirit or eternal Spirit, and there is only one, may seem like an individual, the mind of God, the Father, is that person. Thats why the Honor given in regard to glory, honor and power as in worthy of worship makes no mention of the Spirit in that regard. Jesus prayed to the Father alone. The Spirit, though Mary conceived by that Spirit, is not who Jesus referred to as His God and Father because it is the Spirit of the Father. (God)

You are free to believe what you want but there is only one true God. The Father. It's His fullness that was pleased to dwell in His Firstborn Son. Col 1:19 The eternal life found in the Son is the Father. They are one.
God has tied our life to Jesus as in its through Him we live. So in a manner of speaking one could state My God and My Lord.
Jesus never dies as His Life source is God. Those that are found in Him never die as their life source is His Son by Gods will.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

And by His will all will declare Jesus is "Lord". As in one Lord Jesus Christ. What you should see is that God has exalted His Son.

Therefore God, (singular), exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father .(Singular)

In the past God,(singular) spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

Speaking of that Son who was as in the nature found in Him. That context.
Col 1:19 - All the fullness of God.
The word was God.
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.

Gods firstborn is before all things. God made the creation through that Son and by that Son and "For" His Son. And as previously stated by Gods will we live through that Son. Hence the Spirit was sent in His name. God has granted His Son to have life in Himself and to give such life to whoever He's pleased to give it to. And we know God, (singular), chose to reconcile all things to "Himself" (singular) through Jesus's blood shed on the cross. Col 1:20

Is Jesus God?
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

Now how can Jesus be begotten "from" another as a "Son" of that other if He has no beginning? Do you see coeternal or that everything Jesus has including His name He received from the Father? Why does Jesus call that other His God and His Father if He has no beginning as a Firstborn Son does? A beginning before all things.

If Jesus, the Son of Man is stated to have a rational Soul and a human body what part of Him is fully God apart from soul and body? I tell you the Son who was, His spirit, was in the body prepared for Him. And while the body is human, Jesus existed before man was made. But the Father as the only true God has the only Divine Spirit. Therefore the only Divinity read in the Son of Man is the Father living in Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Spirit only speaks what He hears. The Spirit of a person acts according to the will the mind of that person.
Those who listen and learn from the Spirit or those who listen and learn from the Father?
It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

The Spirit of God has "God's" nature. It is not bound to flesh. "Deity"
Singular
For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

If you believe God is a person then the Father has His own Spirit that is not another person.

In the last days I will pour out "My Spirit"....

Jesus- The Spirit of the Sovreign is upon me....(The one who sent Him)

And how can the Father live in the Son doing His work except by His own Spirit?

The Spirit proceeds from the Father in "Jesus's" name. Hence the Spirit of Christ. That Spirit in the believe would convey the will and presence of the Son in the believer from hearing the mind of Christ.

As has been shown the Father speaks of that Spirit as His own. Does Jesus?

The Father-pour out "My Spirit"
The Son-But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Acts 2 also states the Spirit Jesus sent, (and it was in His name) He received from the Father.

No mention of the Spirit as a person of honor in the God Head.
One God the Father and One Lord Jesus Christ.
To Him who sits on the throne and to the lamb.

Jesus cast out demons by the Spirit of God. Not the person of the Spirit as that Spirit is not a person. The Father is that person.

No mention of the Spirit
The only true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent.

Why the abilities of the Divine Spirit or eternal Spirit, and there is only one, may seem like an individual, the mind of God, the Father, is that person. Thats why the Honor given in regard to glory, honor and power as in worthy of worship makes no mention of the Spirit in that regard. Jesus prayed to the Father alone. The Spirit, though Mary conceived by that Spirit, is not who Jesus referred to as His God and Father because it is the Spirit of the Father. (God)

You are free to believe what you want but there is only one true God. The Father. It's His fullness that was pleased to dwell in His Firstborn Son. Col 1:19 The eternal life found in the Son is the Father. They are one.
God has tied our life to Jesus as in its through Him we live. So in a manner of speaking one could state My God and My Lord.
Jesus never dies as His Life source is God. Those that are found in Him never die as their life source is His Son by Gods will.
Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.

And by His will all will declare Jesus is "Lord". As in one Lord Jesus Christ. What you should see is that God has exalted His Son.

Therefore God, (singular), exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father .(Singular)

In the past God,(singular) spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

Speaking of that Son who was as in the nature found in Him. That context.
Col 1:19 - All the fullness of God.
The word was God.
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.

Gods firstborn is before all things. God made the creation through that Son and by that Son and "For" His Son. And as previously stated by Gods will we live through that Son. Hence the Spirit was sent in His name. God has granted His Son to have life in Himself and to give such life to whoever He's pleased to give it to. And we know God, (singular), chose to reconcile all things to "Himself" (singular) through Jesus's blood shed on the cross. Col 1:20

Is Jesus God?
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

Now how can Jesus be begotten "from" another as a "Son" of that other if He has no beginning? Do you see coeternal or that everything Jesus has including His name He received from the Father? Why does Jesus call that other His God and His Father if He has no beginning as a Firstborn Son does? A beginning before all things.

If Jesus, the Son of Man is stated to have a rational Soul and a human body what part of Him is fully God apart from soul and body? I tell you the Son who was, His spirit, was in the body prepared for Him. And while the body is human, Jesus existed before man was made. But the Father as the only true God has the only Divine Spirit. Therefore the only Divinity read in the Son of Man is the Father living in Him.

Too much Randy.
Could you break it down to one idea at a time?
Thanks

 

[Randy]

Too much Randy.
Could you break it down to one idea at a time?
Thanks

I don't think so as the idea is the trinity and relationship of God but it starts with the Spirit then the Son. If your interested, take your time and read through it. I used the understanding given from above, reasoning and the testimony given.

 

[Free]

Is Jesus God?
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

Can a woman be both pregnant and not pregnant at the same time?

Now how can Jesus be begotten "from" another as a "Son" of that other if He has no beginning? Do you see coeternal or that everything Jesus has including His name He received from the Father? Why does Jesus call that other His God and His Father if He has no beginning as a Firstborn Son does? A beginning before all things.

If the Son had a beginning, then John 1:3, 1 Cor 8:6, Col 1:16-17, and Heb 1:10-12 are false. If all things that ever came into being came into being through the Son, as those passages state, then doesn't that exclude the Son from ever having a beginning?

 

[Randy]

Can a woman be both pregnant and not pregnant at the same time?


If the Son had a beginning, then John 1:3, 1 Cor 8:6, Col 1:16-17, and Heb 1:10-12 are false. If all things that ever came into being came into being through the Son, as those passages state, then doesn't that exclude the Son from ever having a beginning?

Out of this only John 1:3 makes anything.
I would state just as its stated "everything" has been put under Him does not mean the one who put everything under Him that "everything" was created through Him does not mean His own Spirit.

Since He is before all things those things were created by God "through", "by" and "for" Him as was testified to. The one Jesus himself calls the only true God and His God and "Father"

So I agree in part.
Begotten from the Father alone before all worlds but not made.

 

[Free]

Out of this only John 1:3 makes anything.
I would state just as its stated "everything" has been put under Him does not mean the one who put everything under Him that "everything" was created through Him does not mean His own Spirit.

Since He is before all things those things were created by God "through", "by" and "for" Him as was testified to. The one Jesus himself calls the only true God and His God and "Father"

So I agree in part.
Begotten from the Father alone before all worlds but not made.

But that doesn’t really address the issue. Several passage clearly state that the Son existed prior to the creation of space and time, that everything that has come into being has come into being through him. That is an exhaustive statement; it precludes the idea that there was a time when the Son did not exist. It would be contradictory then to say that there was a time when the Son did not exist and all those verses would be teaching falsehoods.

 

[Randy]

But that doesn’t really address the issue. Several passage clearly state that the Son existed prior to the creation of space and time, that everything that has come into being has come into being through him. That is an exhaustive statement; it precludes the idea that there was a time when the Son did not exist. It would be contradictory then to say that there was a time when the Son did not exist and all those verses would be teaching falsehoods.

It states He is the firstborn of all creation before all things.
It states the "fullness was pleased to dwell in Him" -from the will of another

How can He be a begotten Son of another with a Father if He has no beginning? He has a Father and God.

Jesus calls the Father the only true God. If He always was and always was God how does this believe in one God for Jesus stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit "My Spirit"?

 

[BeyondET]

It states He is the firstborn of all creation before all things.
It states the "fullness was pleased to dwell in Him" -from the will of another

How can He be a begotten Son of another with a Father if He has no beginning? He has a Father and God.

Jesus calls the Father the only true God. If He always was and always was God how does this believe in one God for Jesus stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit "My Spirit"?

Like an octopus, with three hearts and nine brains.

 

[Free]

It states He is the firstborn of all creation before all things.

It states: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." Then it states:

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

First, it is very important to note that "For" links to what just preceded it; it is on the basis of verse 14 that Paul then states the things in the verses that follow. The Greek word is hoti and means "because." That is, he is said to be "the firstborn of all creation [because] by him all things were created." Therefore, the Son cannot be included in all things that were created.

Second, we know from Scripture that "firstborn" has the meaning of preeminence and the rights of a son who is firstborn. Based on verses 15-16 it cannot mean that he had a beginning, otherwise we end up in a contradiction. How do we then understand "firstborn" as it relates to the Son? We look to its other uses in Scripture.

Exo 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son, (ESV)

Psa 89:20 I have found David, my servant; with my holy oil I have anointed him,
...
Psa 89:27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. (ESV)

Jer 31:9 With weeping they shall come, and with pleas for mercy I will lead them back, I will make them walk by brooks of water, in a straight path in which they shall not stumble, for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. (ESV)

We see then that "firstborn" has meanings which are not literal. We know from reading the Bible that the firstborn had certain rights and privileges but we also see in the verses above that it seemed those whom God loved he called his firstborn, even though they were not in any literal sense his firstborn.

The use of firstborn can mean preeminence without the referent having actually been born. Looking at the significance of Psalms 89:27, it is a messianic Psalm where God says of David, "I will make him the firstborn." Here, firstborn clearly means that God will put him in a position of preeminence, "the highest of the kings of the earth." David is here the prototype of the coming Messiah, the "firstborn," and has nothing to do with David's being born or coming into being. This is almost certainly what Paul had in mind, and we see something similar in Romans:

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. (ESV)

Here it means the same--that Jesus would be the head of all believers. In relation to the Son then, we can understand that Col. 1:15 is speaking of Jesus's place of preeminence, his sovereignty, and his lordship, over all creation.

It states the "fullness was pleased to dwell in Him" -from the will of another

Where is "from the will of another" stated and what do you mean by it?

How can He be a begotten Son of another with a Father if He has no beginning? He has a Father and God.

A son is always the same nature as his father. If Jesus is truly the Son of God, then he must also be God in nature. And if he is God in nature, then he must have all the attributes of God, including absolute existence (eternal preexistence).

Jesus calls the Father the only true God. If He always was and always was God how does this believe in one God for Jesus stated on the cross, "Father into your hands I commit "My Spirit"?

None of that precludes Jesus from also being truly God; it can't because so many other passages clearly state he is God.

Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. (ESV)

First notice that eternal life is based on knowing both the Father and the Son. In other words, there is no salvation by knowing the Father only. Second, one has to presume unitarianism and disregard the idea that "God" can refer to the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, or the godhead as a whole, in order to use this verse to claim that Jesus isn't God. That assertion is circular. We see Jesus, the God-man who is living in submission to the Father (difference in function, not nature), praying to another divine person. We should fully expect that he would refer to the Father as "the only true God," to agree with the truth of monotheism; but that doesn't preclude himself from also being God.

 

[Randy]

It states: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." Then it states:

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

First, it is very important to note that "For" links to what just preceded it; it is on the basis of verse 14 that Paul then states the things in the verses that follow. The Greek word is hoti and means "because." That is, he is said to be "the firstborn of all creation [because] by him all things were created." Therefore, the Son cannot be included in all things that were created.

Second, we know from Scripture that "firstborn" has the meaning of preeminence and the rights of a son who is firstborn. Based on verses 15-16 it cannot mean that he had a beginning, otherwise we end up in a contradiction. How do we then understand "firstborn" as it relates to the Son? We look to its other uses in Scripture.

Exo 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, Israel is my firstborn son, (ESV)

Psa 89:20 I have found David, my servant; with my holy oil I have anointed him,
...
Psa 89:27 And I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. (ESV)

The Christ is the most exalted not David. God did not make David His Firstborn He appointed His Firstborn to David's line.
And I will appoint him to be my firstborn,
the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
Jesus, God'sChrist, is forever and fulfils Gods promise to David
I will establish his line forever,
his throne as long as the heavens endure.

Jer 31:9 With weeping they shall come, and with pleas for mercy I will lead them back, I will make them walk by brooks of water, in a straight path in which they shall not stumble, for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. (ESV)

Jesus is God's only begotten Son from the Father before all things- The Firstborn of all creation
The church holds He was begotten from the Father as a "Son" don't they? Jesus calls God His "Father" doesn't He?

We see then that "firstborn" has meanings which are not literal. We know from reading the Bible that the firstborn had certain rights and privileges but we also see in the verses above that it seemed those whom God loved he called his firstborn, even though they were not in any literal sense his firstborn.

I noted the context correctly. He is the beginning of the creation of God the Father

The use of firstborn can mean preeminence without the referent having actually been born. Looking at the significance of Psalms 89:27, it is a messianic Psalm where God says of David, "I will make him the firstborn." Here, firstborn clearly means that God will put him in a position of preeminence, "the highest of the kings of the earth." David is here the prototype of the coming Messiah, the "firstborn," and has nothing to do with David's being born or coming into being. This is almost certainly what Paul had in mind, and we see something similar in Romans:

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. (ESV)

Here it means the same--that Jesus would be the head of all believers. In relation to the Son then, we can understand that Col. 1:15 is speaking of Jesus's place of preeminence, his sovereignty, and his lordship, over all creation.

I disagree. Jesus is the beginning of the resurrection and the firstborn (first) from the dead,
Jesus is the beginning of the creation and the firstborn (first) of all creation.

Where is "from the will of another" stated and what do you mean by it?

"Pleased" to dwell -from another

A son is always the same nature as his father. If Jesus is truly the Son of God, then he must also be God in nature. And if he is God in nature, then he must have all the attributes of God, including absolute existence (eternal preexistence).

Jesus has the same nature because all the fullness of God was "pleased" to dwell "in" Him. He is not that deity. Who is him? The firstborn of all creation. The Father is that Deity. It doesn't dwell in Him it is Him.

None of that precludes Jesus from also being truly God; it can't because so many other passages clearly state he is God.

The passages deal with the nature of the Son. Col 1:19 In that context He is God. That does preclude from the singularity of the one true God. In the last days "God" has spoken to us by His Son. "God" has exalted Him to the highest place. To the glory of "God" the Father.

Joh 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. (ESV)

Yes, I note the Father, nothing in regard to the Spirit, as the One true God. And Jesus Christ my Lord.
Nothing in regard to the Spirit
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
Jesus is "Lord" and in Him as shown all the fullness of God dwells
Why the need?
Therefore God,(singular), has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

First notice that eternal life is based on knowing both the Father and the Son. In other words, there is no salvation by knowing the Father only. Second, one has to presume unitarianism and disregard the idea that "God" can refer to the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, or the godhead as a whole, in order to use this verse to claim that Jesus isn't God. That assertion is circular. We see Jesus, the God-man who is living in submission to the Father (difference in function, not nature), praying to another divine person. We should fully expect that he would refer to the Father as "the only true God," to agree with the truth of monotheism; but that doesn't preclude himself from also being God.

There is only one Jesus calls God and that is the Father. I follow Him. And per God's decree Jesus is Lord.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

Yahweh didn't retire? You missed the point. If He is the First and Last as in God there can be no other. If there are 3 Gods as you state is He mistaken or are you mistaken and there is only one true God (Yahweh)?
Is Jesus begotten or unbegotten like the Father?
From the Nicene creed
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only-begotten Son of God,
begotten of His Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;

Is Jesus of one substance with the Father or another God?

How many Spirits are their one or three?

Randy, your questions sound very familiar to me, since I asked many similar questions. Then, I was challenged to read the whole Gospel of John and see if John shows that the Father, Jesus, and the Spirit are each fully God and if they are one God.

Also, in my Bible studies, I used the commentary by a scholar who didn't believe that God inspired the Bible. His scholarly conclusion about John's gospel was that John believed in the Trinity.

To me, that testimony led me to read the gospel to see if he was right. My conclusion was that since I believe in God's inspiration of the Bible and John reveals the mystery of the 3-in-1 God, therefore, the Bible reveals that truth to us.

 

[Randy]

Randy, your questions sound very familiar to me, since I asked many similar questions. Then, I was challenged to read the whole Gospel of John and see if John shows that the Father, Jesus, and the Spirit are each fully God and if they are one God.

Also, in my Bible studies, I used the commentary by a scholar who didn't believe that God inspired the Bible. His scholarly conclusion about John's gospel was that John believed in the Trinity.

To me, that testimony led me to read the gospel to see if he was right. My conclusion was that since I believe in God's inspiration of the Bible and John reveals the mystery of the 3-in-1 God, therefore, the Bible reveals that truth to us.

I believe in a Son who is before all things and is the form of God. A Son who is Gods oldest "child"

A Son who receives all things from His God and Father.

About the SON not God.
Did you note the reasoning given? Isn't God love and one who is above all because He is God?
"You have loved righteoueness and hated wickedness therefore God YOUR God has set you above your companions.

The Son of Man returning with the clouds of heaven just as Jesus stated at His trial. The 2nd coming. The Ancient of Days is Yahweh on His throne not His Son coming before His throne. The one givening is the greater.
"GIVEN" -Why the need?
“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

He was chosen before the world began not at the incarnation.
Col 1:19 -From the will of another. A creation of God.

 

[Free]

Col 1:19 -From the will of another. A creation of God.

Then you do not have the Christ of Scripture, which is what happens when you take things out of context.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

This precludes the Son from being "a creation of God." It is a logical impossibility for the Son to be "a creation of God" and also the agent through whom "all things were created." If the Son is "a creation of God," then he cannot be the agent of the creation of himself; that would be nonsense.

That leaves you with two choices: 1) verse 16 is false--and also John 1:1-3, 10; 1 Cor. 8:6; Heb. 1:2, 10-12--and 2) your belief that the Son is "a creation of God" is false. If I were you, I would stick to what Scripture states and correct your belief.

 

[Randy]

Then you do not have the Christ of Scripture, which is what happens when you take things out of context.

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

This precludes the Son from being "a creation of God." It is a logical impossibility for the Son to be "a creation of God" and also the agent through whom "all things were created." If the Son is "a creation of God," then he cannot be the agent of the creation of himself; that would be nonsense.

That leaves you with two choices: 1) verse 16 is false--and also John 1:1-3, 10; 1 Cor. 8:6; Heb. 1:2, 10-12--and 2) your belief that the Son is "a creation of God" is false. If I were you, I would stick to what Scripture states and correct your belief.

God created all things through Him. God the Father is the one from whom all things come not His Son. His Son is Gods agent through all things come. But again, its the Fathers Deity in the Son doing His work.

My belief is correct Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God and the Firstborn of all creation. All that you read in the NT in regard to power and authority was given to Him by His God and Father. He is Christ, the Lord.

When you state He was a Son in the beginning do you belief He is Gods child?

 

[Free]

God created all things through Him.

This is false, according to your own position. I still don't know why you can't see the logical contradiction.

To say that the Son is "A creation of God" means that it is false that "God created all things through Him;" both statements cannot be true. It is irrational to claim that God created the Son through the Son, but that is what your claims lead to.

God the Father is the one from whom all things come not His Son. His Son is Gods agent through all things come.

Yes, exactly, which means that the Son cannot himself have been created, as you also claim.

But again, its the Fathers Deity in the Son doing His work.

It's the deity of the Son that is doing the work.

My belief is correct Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God and the Firstborn of all creation.

I know, but that clearly contradicts your claim that "God created all things through Him." Again, it is logically impossible for God to have "created all things through Him" and for the Son to also have been created.

All that you read in the NT in regard to power and authority was given to Him by His God and Father. He is Christ, the Lord.

Sure, but where do you read that? What is the context?

When you state He was a Son in the beginning do you belief He is Gods child?

The Son has always been the Son and the Father has always been the Father. The Son has always existed because he is of the same nature as his Father, which is precisely what we should expect.

 

[Randy]

This is false, according to your own position. I still don't know why you can't see the logical contradiction.

.

To say that the Son is "A creation of God" means that it is false that "God created all things through Him;" both statements cannot be true. It is irrational to claim that God created the Son through the Son, but that is what your claims lead to.

He's the beginning of the creation of God. You are correct in that that Gods Firstborn would be born from the Father alone before all other things.
Just as when it states all things were put under Him does not mean God Himself who put everything under Him.

So we agree in part "Born from the Father alone before all ages but not made"

Yes, exactly, which means that the Son cannot himself have been created, as you also claim.

He is a child of the Father as in born from the Father.

It's the deity of the Son that is doing the work.

Its the same Deity that was in the Son of Man doing His work.
Col 1:19 He was chosen before the world began not at the incarnation.

I know, but that clearly contradicts your claim that "God created all things through Him." Again, it is logically impossible for God to have "created all things through Him" and for the Son to also have been created.


Sure, but where do you read that? What is the context?


The Son has always been the Son and the Father has always been the Father. The Son has always existed because he is of the same nature as his Father, which is precisely what we should expect.

He was/is a born Son. God oldest child. He is the God and Father of the Son.
If He is a Son in any meaning of the word Son He is a child of the Father.

About that Son - why the need?
And again, when God brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

The body of Christ is the assembly or church.
Very specific language was used and it wasn't the church of Christ nor the Church of God but the church of the Firstborn.

Is Jesus God?
This answer is from my teacher
He never dies
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

Why would this reasoning even be used for Yahweh and why the need? And Yahweh is a God of Himself?
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of joy beyond your companions.

 

[Free]

He's the beginning of the creation of God.

Rev 3:14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation. (ESV)

"The beginning of God's creation" does not mean that he had a beginning himself. If it did, as you think it does, then that means was created. But that would contradict other things you say.

Why did you ignore the contradiction I pointed out? Here it is again:

Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

This precludes the Son from being "a creation of God." It is a logical impossibility for the Son to be "a creation of God" and also the agent through whom "all things were created." If the Son is "a creation of God," then he cannot be the agent of the creation of himself; that would be nonsense.

That leaves you with two choices: 1) verse 16 is false--and also John 1:1-3, 10; 1 Cor. 8:6; Heb. 1:2, 10-12--and 2) your belief that the Son is "a creation of God" is false. If I were you, I would stick to what Scripture states and correct your belief.

You are correct in that that Gods Firstborn would be born from the Father alone before all other things.

First, the Son wasn't "born;" he was generated. If he was born it would mean he was created. Second, you're doing what the Watchtower organization does in changing what the Bible clearly states. It is erroneous to add "other" in the phrase "all things." That completely changes what the Bible clearly states: "For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him" (Col. 1:16, ESV).

Just as when it states all things were put under Him does not mean God Himself who put everything under Him.

Of course, but how is that relevant?

So we agree in part "Born from the Father alone before all ages but not made"

No, we don't agree on that.

He is a child of the Father as in born from the Father.

Where does the Bible say that?

Its the same Deity that was in the Son of Man doing His work.

Which is the deity of the Son.

Col 1:19 He was chosen before the world began not at the incarnation.

No, that's a clear reference to the incarnation.

He was/is a born Son. God oldest child. He is the God and Father of the Son.
If He is a Son in any meaning of the word Son He is a child of the Father.

Yes, he's the Son--he has eternally been the Son because he is of the same nature as the Father. It cannot be otherwise.

About that Son - why the need?

He just is. Why does there have to be a need?

But this also brings up another serious problem with your position, which I have pointed out before: John tells us twice (1 John 4:8, 16) that "God is love." But love requires a subject and an object; true love, the highest form of love, is an action from one towards another (Mark 12:29-31; John 15:13). This is all the more important with John's statement, because it is a statement about the very nature of God--love is one of his necessary characteristics. That is only possible if there is more than one person within the one God. That means it necessarily follows that there must be at least two eternal persons within God.

The body of Christ is the assembly or church.
Very specific language was used and it wasn't the church of Christ nor the Church of God but the church of the Firstborn.

Right, but what does this have to do with anything?

Is Jesus God?
This answer is from my teacher
He never dies
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

And that is an irrational answer; you had a poor teacher. By definition, according to your position, he absolutely cannot be "all that the Father is," because he isn't eternal. So it becomes nonsense to say both that "Yes, He is all that the Father is" and say "No, He has always been the Son." He is either truly and fully God, and therefore actually is "all that the Father is," or is not God at all.

Your position is so contradictory and irrational. It's stunning that after so much discussion about this and pointing out the inherent contradictions in your position, that you still cling to it. Your teacher set you up for disaster and an inability to think well about Scripture.

Why would this reasoning even be used for Yahweh and why the need? And Yahweh is a God of Himself?
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of joy beyond your companions.

I don't know what your point is here.

 

[madharp]

You really can't defend the Catholic doctrine of trinity. It's tough when Jesus' own words throws equality under the bus.

 

[Free]

You really can't defend the Catholic doctrine of trinity. It's tough when Jesus' own words throws equality under the bus.

I find it’s rather defendable and straightforward when everything is taken in context. I have yet to find any words of Jesus that, when taken in context, throw equality under the bus.