How to discern truth from fiction when discussing God and the Bible

[OzSpen]

A couple years ago when I was preparing a curriculum for use in high school religious education about this topic, I wrote Norman Geisler Ministries for some suggestions. I was referred to Geisler's summary of the truth of Christianity, 'Reasoning from ground zero', in Wikipedia.

Geisler contended:

The first outline contained fourteen points of argument:

1. There are self-evident truths (e.g., "I exist," "Logic applies to reality").
2. Truth corresponds to reality.
3. Truth is knowable (all other views are self-defeating).
4. One can proceed from self-evident truths to the existence of God.
   1. The argument from Creation (proceeds from "I exist")
   2. The argument from morals (proceeds from "Values are undeniable")
   3. The argument from design (proceeds from "Design implies a designer")
5. God is a necessary Being (argument from being).
6. My existence is not necessary (evident from the definition of a necessary Being).
7. Therefore, theism is true (there is a necessary Being beyond the world who has created the contingent things in the world and intervenes in the world [chap. 3]).
   1. The objection from the problem of evil can be solved.
   2. The objection to miracles can be solved.
8. The Bible is a historically reliable document.
   1. History is an objective study of the past.
   2. There is great historical, archaeological, and scientific evidence to confirm the reliability of the Bible. (Corollary: The Bible gives a reliable record of the teaching of Jesus Christ.)
9. Jesus claimed to be both fully human and fully God.
10. He gave evidence to support this claim.
    1. The fulfillment of prophecy
    2. His miraculous and sinless life
    3. His resurrection
11. Therefore, Jesus is both fully human and fully God.
12. Whatever God teaches is true.
13. Jesus (God) taught that the Old Testament was the inspired Word of God and He promised the New Testament.
14. Therefore, both the Old and New Testaments are the inspired Word of God.

The overview of his system was later streamlined slightly into a 12-point schema. As of 1999, it could be summarized as follows:

1. Truth about reality is knowable.
2. Opposites cannot both be true (The Law of Noncontradiction).
3. It is true the theistic God exists.
4. If God exists, then miracles are possible.
5. Miracles performed in connection with a truth claim are acts of God to confirm the truth of God through a messenger of God.
6. The New Testament is historically reliable.
7. As witnessed in the New Testament, Jesus claimed to be God.
8. Jesus' claim to divinity was proven by miracles, especially the Resurrection.
9. Therefore, Jesus is God.
10. Because Jesus is God, whatever Jesus affirmed as true, is true.
11. Jesus affirmed that the Bible is the Word of God.
12. Therefore, it is true that the Bible is the Word of God and whatever is opposed to any biblical truth is false.

These same twelve steps served as the framework for the chapters of the highly popular book I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist in 2004 and for Geisler's 2012 e-book Twelve Points that Show Christianity is True.

Is this too difficult to comprehend? Do I need to break it down into a series of simpler points?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

A couple years ago when I was preparing a curriculum for use in high school religious education about this topic, I wrote Norman Geisler Ministries for some suggestions. I was referred to Geisler's summary of the truth of Christianity, 'Reasoning from ground zero', in Wikipedia.

Geisler contended:

The first outline contained fourteen points of argument:

1. There are self-evident truths (e.g., "I exist," "Logic applies to reality").
2. Truth corresponds to reality.
3. Truth is knowable (all other views are self-defeating).
4. One can proceed from self-evident truths to the existence of God.
   1. The argument from Creation (proceeds from "I exist")
   2. The argument from morals (proceeds from "Values are undeniable")
   3. The argument from design (proceeds from "Design implies a designer")
5. God is a necessary Being (argument from being).
6. My existence is not necessary (evident from the definition of a necessary Being).
7. Therefore, theism is true (there is a necessary Being beyond the world who has created the contingent things in the world and intervenes in the world [chap. 3]).
   1. The objection from the problem of evil can be solved.
   2. The objection to miracles can be solved.
8. The Bible is a historically reliable document.
   1. History is an objective study of the past.
   2. There is great historical, archaeological, and scientific evidence to confirm the reliability of the Bible. (Corollary: The Bible gives a reliable record of the teaching of Jesus Christ.)
9. Jesus claimed to be both fully human and fully God.
10. He gave evidence to support this claim.
    1. The fulfillment of prophecy
    2. His miraculous and sinless life
    3. His resurrection
11. Therefore, Jesus is both fully human and fully God.
12. Whatever God teaches is true.
13. Jesus (God) taught that the Old Testament was the inspired Word of God and He promised the New Testament.
14. Therefore, both the Old and New Testaments are the inspired Word of God.

The overview of his system was later streamlined slightly into a 12-point schema. As of 1999, it could be summarized as follows:

1. Truth about reality is knowable.
2. Opposites cannot both be true (The Law of Noncontradiction).
3. It is true the theistic God exists.
4. If God exists, then miracles are possible.
5. Miracles performed in connection with a truth claim are acts of God to confirm the truth of God through a messenger of God.
6. The New Testament is historically reliable.
7. As witnessed in the New Testament, Jesus claimed to be God.
8. Jesus' claim to divinity was proven by miracles, especially the Resurrection.
9. Therefore, Jesus is God.
10. Because Jesus is God, whatever Jesus affirmed as true, is true.
11. Jesus affirmed that the Bible is the Word of God.
12. Therefore, it is true that the Bible is the Word of God and whatever is opposed to any biblical truth is false.

These same twelve steps served as the framework for the chapters of the highly popular book I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist in 2004 and for Geisler's 2012 e-book Twelve Points that Show Christianity is True.

Is this too difficult to comprehend? Do I need to break it down into a series of simpler points?

Oz

There have been quite a few who viewed my post but nobody engaged with me. Perhaps it's too complicated.

In an endeavour to find truth, can we agree with the first 3 points?

1. There are self-evident truths (e.g., "I exist," "Logic applies to reality").
2. Truth corresponds to reality.
3. Truth is knowable (all other views are self-defeating).

Do you agree or disagree with any of these points? Perhaps you would like to examine them one point at a time.

Or, is this too heave of a topic that doesn't interest most folks on CFnet?

Any comers?

Oz

 

[LovethroughDove]

I LOVE post #2. I agree with all 3 of those.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I think Romans 1:20 sums it up nicely.

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Invisible qualities: His power, authority, creativity, beauty, love, mercy,........etc

Clearly seen: Nature, how our bodies function, healing, the planet, the galaxies, math equations, language, art, true love, mercy for the sick

I could go on and on with different invisible qualities and what we see everyday.

This is just a snippet of how I personally know the truth of God.

 

[Knotical]

More simply put, as long as you are using an accurate translation (personally use the NASB), if it is in the bible it is the truth.

 

[JohnDB]

There have been quite a few who viewed my post but nobody engaged with me. Perhaps it's too complicated

It's just a lot of stuff to think through at one sitting.
Granted you have stated these things in a compact manner but each one of these points needs to be fully explained and expounded upon so that the average "street" level reader can fully understand what each thing means. (Or at least what you mean by them)

 

[OzSpen]

I LOVE post #2. I agree with all 3 of those.

LTD,

Would you like to give a few examples of how truth corresponds with reality?

I'll start with an example:

Is the correspondence theory of truth optional for Christians? I don’t think so. The apostle Paul stated,

And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. (1 Cor. 15:14-15)​

Our belief in the resurrection is not true simply because it works for us (the pragmatic view) nor because it is consistent with our web of Christian belief (the coherence view). The Christian belief in the resurrection of Christ is true because it is an objective fact of history that corresponds with reality! Indeed, how could the early Christians point to the empty tomb as verifiable evidence of the resurrection unless, in fact, the tomb was empty?

Christian philosopher Douglas Groothuis concludes,

Therefore, the correspondence view of truth is not simply one of many options for Christians. It is the only biblically and logically grounded view of truth available and allowable. We neglect or deny it to our peril and disgrace (What is Truth? Stand to Reason).​

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

More simply put, as long as you are using an accurate translation (personally use the NASB), if it is in the bible it is the truth.

Knotical,

So is it truth or fiction that there is a monstrous gum tree adjacent to my back fence?

How would I demonstrate to a non-Christian that the Gospel truth corresponds with the capital punishment of a person on Golgotha, Jerusalem?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

It's just a lot of stuff to think through at one sitting.
Granted you have stated these things in a compact manner but each one of these points needs to be fully explained and expounded upon so that the average "street" level reader can fully understand what each thing means. (Or at least what you mean by them)

John,

Let's plan to do that, but it may take a few different threads.

Oz

 

[Knotical]

Knotical,

So is it truth or fiction that there is a monstrous gum tree adjacent to my back fence?

How would I demonstrate to a non-Christian that the Gospel truth corresponds with the capital punishment of a person on Golgotha, Jerusalem?

Oz

You wouldn't. There are a number of things that non-believers will never understand until they are quickened by the Holy Spirit and imparted the knowledge they need by God.

 

[OzSpen]

You wouldn't. There are a number of things that non-believers will never understand until they are quickened by the Holy Spirit and imparted the knowledge they need by God.

Knotical,

So don't you evangelise non-believers? Is apologetics not in your armoury?

Oz

 

[Knotical]

Knotical,

So don't you evangelise non-believers? Is apologetics not in your armoury?

Oz

Not directly. My denomination has never been strong in evangelizing to non-believers, however, for those who have been in the church and are starting to discover there is a disconnect between what their church is doing and what the bible teaches our doors are wide open. We are very strong in theology and church history for those who want to learn more.

 

[LovethroughDove]

LTD,

Would you like to give a few examples of how truth corresponds with reality?

I'll start with an example:



Oz

I would've used the example of the resurrection too! Very good. I'll take it even further to the ascension into heaven (Acts 1:11) because Jesus is a historical person in time and his bones are not on earth........like other historical people.

And we can prove him a true historical figure also by the way the world measures time. We have the year 2020 AD and before Jesus was born the years were BC

 

[jasonc]

Not directly. My denomination has never been strong in evangelizing to non-believers, however, for those who have been in the church and are starting to discover there is a disconnect between what their church is doing and what the bible teaches our doors are wide open. We are very strong in theology and church history for those who want to learn more.

Unless they are really open to talk ,I won't .
Quotes a few days ago about a church in ky holding in person service .or how it is judgment with covid

Pastors only want your money ,why do you think the fairy god is real?science will cure this

 

[OzSpen]

Not directly. My denomination has never been strong in evangelizing to non-believers, however, for those who have been in the church and are starting to discover there is a disconnect between what their church is doing and what the bible teaches our doors are wide open. We are very strong in theology and church history for those who want to learn more.

Knotical,

I'd like some clarification by you. Are you saying your denomination is not strong in obeying Jesus command:

'Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age’ (Matt 28:19-20 NIV)?​

Oz

 

[Knotical]

Knotical,

I'd like some clarification by you. Are you saying your denomination is not strong in obeying Jesus command:

'Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age’ (Matt 28:19-20 NIV)?​

Oz

Not at all. We most certainly perform baptisms, however, it is mostly done with infants. In the progression of Christians in their faith, it is rare that we get a new convert in our church. Usually, people will accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior at another church or some sort of revival. Once they have been attending for a while and start studying the bible on their own there are those who will gravitate toward reformed theology. They then discover that they are not really being challenged, theologically, at their current church and start seeking another. That is how we get many of our members, other than those who are already a member of a reformed church and happen to move into the area.

 

[OzSpen]

Not at all. We most certainly perform baptisms, however, it is mostly done with infants. In the progression of Christians in their faith, it is rare that we get a new convert in our church. Usually, people will accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior at another church or some sort of revival. Once they have been attending for a while and start studying the bible on their own there are those who will gravitate toward reformed theology. They then discover that they are not really being challenged, theologically, at their current church and start seeking another. That is how we get many of our members, other than those who are already a member of a reformed church and happen to move into the area.

Knotical,

That still makes your denomination disobedient to Jesus' command to make disciples and baptise those who are being discipled. That is not left to other denominations. It is the responsibility of all Christians.

Matt 28:19-20 NIV states that baptism is for those who are being discipled. I can't disciple an infant.

Oz

 

[Knotical]

Knotical,

That still makes your denomination disobedient to Jesus' command to make disciples and baptise those who are being discipled. That is not left to other denominations. It is the responsibility of all Christians.

Matt 28:19-20 NIV states that baptism is for those who are being discipled. I can't disciple an infant.

Oz

We are not "leaving it to other churches" it just happens that way.

 

[jerry63935]

discernment is not hard if you will listen to the Holy Spirit . i am able to walk into a church and after a period of time . sense some things not just are not right. other times i have sensed something not knowing and later find out . the Bible says have a unction that may know all things..

 

[jasonc]

We are not "leaving it to other churches" it just happens that way.

Often ,like in my church which is literally down the road from three churches this is the case.

I pass all of them to go to church .that's 5 as two more are near my house