How to discern truth from fiction when discussing God and the Bible

[jerry63935]

That still makes your denomination disobedient

these kind of remarks creates sparks . me personally i do not agree with infant baptism or children that has no idea what salvation is about. the Body of Christ has many members Christ prayed for us to be one in him john 17 the true lords PRAYER

 

[GodsGrace]

There have been quite a few who viewed my post but nobody engaged with me. Perhaps it's too complicated.

In an endeavour to find truth, can we agree with the first 3 points?

1. There are self-evident truths (e.g., "I exist," "Logic applies to reality").
2. Truth corresponds to reality.
3. Truth is knowable (all other views are self-defeating).

Do you agree or disagree with any of these points? Perhaps you would like to examine them one point at a time.

Or, is this too heave of a topic that doesn't interest most folks on CFnet?

Any comers?

Oz

Hi Oz,

It's not difficult...I just don't understand why you posted this thread.
It would seem to me to be more suitable to atheists than theists.

What was your reason?
I just saw it now.

 

[daninthelionsden]

OzSpen, I would really like to know your take on the Machievellien honesty/morality test on another thread. I know the Kingdom of God works inverse from the kingdom of man and that scoring highly on such a test is indicative of one's failure to value truth or moral absolutes. For this, I believe is the reason "Some who are last will be first and some first will be last" (paraphrase). Earthly leaders tend to score high while meek/humble tend to score low. But, we know the meek shall inherit the Earth. You seem to value Truth. What do you think such a test reveals?

 

[Avigdor]

There have been quite a few who viewed my post but nobody engaged with me. Perhaps it's too complicated.

In an endeavour to find truth, can we agree with the first 3 points?

1. There are self-evident truths (e.g., "I exist," "Logic applies to reality").
2. Truth corresponds to reality.
3. Truth is knowable (all other views are self-defeating).

Do you agree or disagree with any of these points? Perhaps you would like to examine them one point at a time.

Or, is this too heave of a topic that doesn't interest most folks on CFnet?

Any comers?

Oz

I have a bit of a disagreement on point three. When we are speaking of the truth in the Bible, and specifically that the Bible is the word of God and the truth about who Jesus is and what He accomplished, that cannot be known by anything but faith. Thus the expression saving faith. Only a faith given by the Holy Spirit can ever consider the things in the Bible (with the exception of historical proven facts) to be truth.

 

[OzSpen]

I have a bit of a disagreement on point three. When we are speaking of the truth in the Bible, and specifically that the Bible is the word of God and the truth about who Jesus is and what He accomplished, that cannot be known by anything but faith. Thus the expression saving faith. Only a faith given by the Holy Spirit can ever consider the things in the Bible (with the exception of historical proven facts) to be truth.

Avig,

Let’s use this example: ‘I can't tell you much for you must discover the whole truth for yourself’.

What does truth mean in that sentence?

‘Truth’ here means ‘the fact of the matter, what actually happened, what really happened, the case … reality, real life’.

Jesus used this view of truth in the Gospel of John when he used a statement that appears frequently in that Gospel: “Truly, truly” (ESV) or “Verily, verily” (KJV) or “Very truly” (NIV). According to John 3:3 (NJB), ‘Jesus answered: In all truth I tell you [Nicodemus], no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above’.

Oz

 

[Avigdor]

Avig,

Let’s use this example: ‘I can't tell you much for you must discover the whole truth for yourself’.

What does truth mean in that sentence?

‘Truth’ here means ‘the fact of the matter, what actually happened, what really happened, the case … reality, real life’.

Jesus used this view of truth in the Gospel of John when he used a statement that appears frequently in that Gospel: “Truly, truly” (ESV) or “Verily, verily” (KJV) or “Very truly” (NIV). According to John 3:3 (NJB), ‘Jesus answered: In all truth I tell you [Nicodemus], no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above’.

Oz

I agree. I am having a bit of trouble trying to figure out where you are intending to go with this topic. What are you headed? And why? It all seems non specific and I don't know what to say. ?

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Oz,

It's not difficult...I just don't understand why you posted this thread.
It would seem to me to be more suitable to atheists than theists.

What was your reason?
I just saw it now.

wondering,

This is an apologetics' topic that is often understood as 'Jesus is the truth' (John 14:6). Is truth the Ultimate Truth of God's knowledge here or is it more than that?

Is there more to the meaning of truth in Jesus and in our cultures?

A recent survey bears this out. Of those surveyed, sixty-four percent of adults age thirty-six and over said there are no moral absolutes. And only twenty-two percent said there are any moral absolutes. But among respondents who are eighteen to twenty-five years old, the percentage of those who reject moral absolutes increased to seventy-five percent....

Humanism says man is the truth; pragmatism says whatever works is the truth; pluralism says everyone has a piece of the truth; relativism says each situation determines the truth; mysticism says intuition is the truth; skepticism says no one can know the truth; hedonism says whatever feels good is the truth; existentialism says self-determination is the truth; secularism says this present world is the truth; positivism says whatever man confesses is the truth. This is the world in which we live: the rejection of the truth.

The Greek aletheia (truth) means that which conforms with reality. The truth is that sexual promiscuity can lead to STDs, HIV/AIDS. It is true I have a large gum tree outside, but not far from, my back fence.

Applied to the things of God,

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse (Rom 1:18-20 NIV).

• The truth is that godless, wicked people suppress the truth about God.
• The truth is God's wrath is coming on such people.
• The truth is God's existence is plain to them.
• The truth is God has made it known through his invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature.
• The truth is God's attributes are seen clearly by wicked people who have seen them in the universe that God has made.
• Therefore, the truth is that these godless people will face God 'without excuse'.

The reason I raised this topic was:

1. Many Christians rattle off John 14:6 without examining the meaning of Jesus the Truth as meaning only the way to salvation.
2. The truth of God is confirmed in its correspondence with reality in our cultures.
3. Is it real and true my Mitsubishi car is in the garage? This truth corresponds with reality and is not speaking about Jesus, the ultimate Truth.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I agree. I am having a bit of trouble trying to figure out where you are intending to go with this topic. What are you headed? And why? It all seems non specific and I don't know what to say. ?

See post #27.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

This is an apologetics' topic that is often understood as 'Jesus is the truth' (John 14:6). Is truth the Ultimate Truth of God's knowledge here or is it more than that?

Is there more to the meaning of truth in Jesus and in our cultures?


The Greek aletheia (truth) means that which conforms with reality. The truth is that sexual promiscuity can lead to STDs, HIV/AIDS. It is true I have a large gum tree outside, but not far from, my back fence.

Applied to the things of God,

• The truth is that godless, wicked people suppress the truth about God.
• The truth is God's wrath is coming on such people.
• The truth is God's existence is plain to them.
• The truth is God has made it known through his invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature.
• The truth is God's attributes are seen clearly by wicked people who have seen them in the universe that God has made.
• Therefore, the truth is that these godless people will face God 'without excuse'.

The reason I raised this topic was:

1. Many Christians rattle off John 14:6 without examining the meaning of Jesus the Truth as meaning only the way to salvation.
2. The truth of God is confirmed in its correspondence with reality in our cultures.
3. Is it real and true my Mitsubishi car is in the garage? This truth corresponds with reality and is not speaking about Jesus, the ultimate Truth.

Oz

Good morning Oz,
The above post is more clear than the O.P.

Also, I like what you posted here:
Humanism says man is the truth;
pragmatism says whatever works is the truth;
pluralism says everyone has a piece of the truth;
relativism says each situation determines the truth;
mysticism says intuition is the truth;
skepticism says no one can know the truth;
hedonism says whatever feels good is the truth;
existentialism says self-determination is the truth;
secularism says this present world is the truth;
positivism says whatever man confesses is the truth. This is the world in which we live: the rejection of the truth.

I believe the O.T. contains SOME truth about God.
He certainly seems like a more primitive God because this is how those persons saw Him.
I believe Jesus clarified many aspects of God, and not only this, but Jesus was THE messenger from God so that God could be revealed even more and we could know HIS truth,,,which is NOT, for instance, the truth of relativism.

The absolute truth must exist or man has no compass.
God is the absolute truth, but as your above paragraph confirms,,,not everyone
believes in absolute truth. Right now I know that secularism prevails...every situation
demands a different set of truths. Which, of course, means there IS NOT TRUTH!
Truth is immutable.


So, the truth related to God.
Are you asking if the O.T. contains the truth and if the N.T. contains the truth?

And if so, what IS the truth?

As to John 14:6, that could almost be a separate thread.
Jesus is the truth.
Everything He said is the truth.
But did He mean it for those Africans that never heard of Him?
To me, this is a different topic.

The truth of GOD DOES confirm to reality.
When we follow His laws, we're better off for it.
When we do not, we suffer for it - not because He is personally chastising us, but because it's just the way the Laws of Nature work out - laws which God set into place.

Then you went ahead and posted these questions:

Applied to the things of God,

• The truth is that godless, wicked people suppress the truth about God.
• The truth is God's wrath is coming on such people.
• The truth is God's existence is plain to them.
• The truth is God has made it known through his invisible qualities - his eternal power and divine nature.
• The truth is God's attributes are seen clearly by wicked people who have seen them in the universe that God has made.
• Therefore, the truth is that these godless people will face God 'without excuse'.

1. Wicked people don't care about God. They'd love to get rid of Him, not only suppress Him.
2. God's wrath is coming upon them for the reason I stated above...it's the Law of Nature.
3. God's existence is not plain to everyone --- they refuse to look deeper.
4. This is true.
5. Answered in 1.
6. True

I think that's it.

 

[Avigdor]

See post #27.

Got it. Thanks.

 

[JLB]

Jesus Christ is the truth.

His words are truth.

His Gospel
His Doctrine
His Commandments


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


Thankfully, He dwells in us to lead us and guide us into the truth.





JLB

 

[Prycejosh1987]

Is this too difficult to comprehend? Do I need to break it down into a series of simpler points?

Simple enough to understand to me. I wish you best of luck in proclaiming the message.