[_ Old Earth _] How well do you actually know The Theory of Evolution?

[Doulos Iesou]

Coming to other conclusions is not denying the science that gathers the data but rather disagreeing with the conclusion.

That would be true, except Creationists deny some of very methods by which science is accomplished. Radiometric dating is a good example.

It is primarily a destructive effort, as you hardly hear of Creationists out in the field doing research, or in the labratory at the forefront of science. No, rather they're on youtube, spouting falsehoods to people who should know better.

Science is a term used too often to give greater weight to an argument, a conclusion, an idea developed by the data science provides. Science is not an entity of it's own. The man makes the conclusion. Not science

This is how we use science in this kind of context.

a systematically organized body of knowledge on a particular subject.

The Theory of Evolution is part of this organized body of knowledge that we call science.

 

[Gary]

Outlawing it from being taught in public schools, yes no problem with that.

Do you believe Creationism is a stumbling block to the evolutionist?

 

[jay55]

Some Public Schools did, until it was outlawed. We've come a long way since 1956.

Yes, a long way down for sure.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

This will be interesting. Looking forward to it.

The Recurrent Laryngeal Nerve that Giraffes have is a very peculiar thing. Humans also have this nerve, and as you can see from the picture below this is a branch of the vagus nerve that runs up to the brain from the area around your heart.

This is a simple picture, but it illustrates the massive detour that this nerve takes, 4.6 meters in total is the length of the detour in Giraffes, that's 15 feet! This seems to be best explained by evolution in that it is a strange design and doesn't serve any beneficial purpose. The length was likely extended via Natural selection as the necks of Giraffes extended, their hearts also lowered, catching the nerve on the wrong side of the heart and thus ended up with this strange detour of 15 feet within the Giraffe's nervous system.

This doesn't seem the product of design, in that a designer would just have the nerve take no detour, but we can observe in Giraffe's this imperfection within their anatomy, which is a result of evolution.

In addition to this, I recommend the below video.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Do you believe Creationism is a stumbling block to the evolutionist?

I don't think that most kids struggle with accepting evolution, Creationism is very unbelievable to most people who have been educated from an early age regarding the age of the earth and universe. Kids are actually very fascinated as I was with science, especially with things like Dinosaurs, and the Creationist understanding leaves much to be desired.

 

[Obadiah]

...Creationism is very unbelievable to most people who have been educated from an early age regarding the age of the earth and universe...

Some say "educated", others would say "indoctrinated". Since neither side seems to be a proven fact, it seems wrong to deride those who do not accept one side or the other as simply "uneducated", don't you think?

 

[Rick W]

All that methodology and body of knowledge is great. Where does scripture fit into this?
Haven't seen the word "scripture" used much except maybe insinuated with "dogma"

And yes, I know the bible is not a science book.

But where does scripture fit in with the conclusions made?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Moving on with regards to Giraffe evolution, the first explanation I proposed does have some problems with it, and some scientists differ on the matter. Giraffes use their necks not just to get food, but even more so in combat with one another. The longer the neck, and the harder the head, the more damage that a Giraffe can take and can dish out. Of course, Giraffes fight one another for competing for the right to mate with a female. Thus throughout the evolution of a Giraffe, the males with the longer necks will win out and mate, while the shorter neck ancestors do not reproduce.

See more:
http://www.blc.arizona.edu/courses/schaffer/182/Giraffe/WinningByANeck.pdf

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Some say "educated", others would say "indoctrinated". Since neither side seems to be a proven fact, it seems wrong to deride those who do not accept one side or the other as simply "uneducated", don't you think?

Actually Evolution is a proven fact, it's constant denial on this forum does not change that.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

All that methodology and body of knowledge is great. Where does scripture fit into this?
Haven't seen the word "scripture" used much except maybe insinuated with "dogma"

And yes, I know the bible is not a science book.

But where does scripture fit in with the conclusions made?

Scripture is a theological book, it is not a scientific textbook.

 

[Gary]

I don't think that most kids struggle with accepting evolution, Creationism is very unbelievable to most people who have been educated from an early age regarding the age of the earth and universe. Kids are actually very fascinated as I was with science, especially with things like Dinosaurs, and the Creationist understanding leaves much to be desired.

I don't believe that to be true. With the help of science and the evolutionists fossil record, Creationists are able to show that a large number of plants and animals that are living today were in fact living way back then. Alligators, different species of plants and trees, horseshoe crabs, starfish, insects, etc. Things that have remained virtually unchanged for millions of years. I find that very interesting and I believe children would also.

Creationism is very unbelievable to most people who have been educated

I'm posting this for the benefit of our readers. I hope you don't mind.

1 Corinthians 1....(NKJV)
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

.

 

[Obadiah]

Actually Evolution is a proven fact, it's constant denial on this forum does not change that.

On this forum? Do you seriously think the only people in the world who question evolution are people on this forum?

If evolution were a proven fact it would be called the "law of evolution" not the "theory of evolution". The fact it's called a theory doesn't mean it can't be true, but it means it hasn't been proven to be totally true. If you look, you will find many "educated" people that understand this.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

On this forum? Do you seriously think the only people in the world who question evolution are people on this forum?

If evolution were a proven fact it would be called the "law of evolution" not the "theory of evolution". The fact it's called a theory doesn't mean it can't be true, but it means it hasn't been proven to be totally true. If you look, you will find many "educated" people that understand this.

Within the academic world and scientific world it is not a contested issue.

You also are not fully comprehending the way in which Theory is used, here is something from the National Academy of Science that should help.

"Is Evolution a Fact Or Theory?

It is both. But that answer requires looking more deeply at the meanings of the words "theory" and "fact."

In everyday usage, "theory" often refers to a hunch or a speculation. When people say, "I have a theory about why that happened," they are often drawing a conclusion based on fragmentary or inconclusive evidence.

The formal scientific definition of theory is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word. It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence."
Source: http://www.nas.edu/evolution/TheoryOrFact.html

Laws and Theories are used differently, and Theory is not used to denote that something is "unsure." I respectfully doubt the education of people who think that because evolution is a "theory" that it is somehow not true, or in doubt as it regards to scientific community.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I don't believe that to be true. With the help of science and the evolutionists fossil record, Creationists are able to show that a large number of plants and animals that are living today were in fact living way back then. Alligators, different species of plants and trees, horseshoe crabs, starfish, insects, etc. Things that have remained virtually unchanged for millions of years. I find that very interesting and I believe children would also.

Unchanged is rather a steep claim, but pretty much the same is an accurate statement. Things don't just evolve because that's what living organisms do, organisms evolve via Natural Selection as populations are better suited to their environments over a period of time. If something is well suited to it's environment, then why would the need for change arise?

I'm posting this for the benefit of the readers. I hope you don't mind.

1 Corinthians 1....(NKJV)
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

It should be noted that the context is referring to the gospel, specifically the foolishness of the message in proclaiming a crucified savior who is a stumbling block go Jews and foolishness to Gentiles. This text isn't about Creationism, and I don't see how you can rip it out of it's context and serve any kind of foolish supposition.

 

[Obadiah]

Within the academic world and scientific world it is not a contested issue.

You also are not fully comprehending the way in which Theory is used, here is something from the National Academy of Science that should help.

"Is Evolution a Fact Or Theory?

It is both. But that answer requires looking more deeply at the meanings of the words "theory" and "fact."

In everyday usage, "theory" often refers to a hunch or a speculation. When people say, "I have a theory about why that happened," they are often drawing a conclusion based on fragmentary or inconclusive evidence.

The formal scientific definition of theory is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word. It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence."
Source: http://www.nas.edu/evolution/TheoryOrFact.html

Laws and Theories are used differently, and Theory is not used to denote that something is "unsure." I respectfully doubt the education of people who think that because evolution is a "theory" that it is somehow not true, or in doubt as it regards to scientific community.

Yeah, see, I have a little more than a 6th grade education, so I understand the difference between a "scientific theory" and the everyday usage of the word "theory". Same with the term "Scientific law". Not all scientists agree with what you have posted here regarding the difference between a theory and a law, and many scientists disagree that evolution is a law. That includes many secular scientists, by the way, not just Christians. But then, I am remembering that you don't want to discuss anything like this in this thread, so I'll leave it alone.

 

[Rick W]

I already said, "Yes i know the bible is not a science book"

And we can't just say the above and continue as if scripture means nothing. If it carries no weight in our conclusions then it's a useless piece of text that only gets in the way.
Is scripture getting in the way?

 

[jasonc]

Within the academic world and scientific world it is not a contested issue.

You also are not fully comprehending the way in which Theory is used, here is something from the National Academy of Science that should help.

"Is Evolution a Fact Or Theory?

It is both. But that answer requires looking more deeply at the meanings of the words "theory" and "fact."

In everyday usage, "theory" often refers to a hunch or a speculation. When people say, "I have a theory about why that happened," they are often drawing a conclusion based on fragmentary or inconclusive evidence.

The formal scientific definition of theory is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word. It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence."
Source: http://www.nas.edu/evolution/TheoryOrFact.html

Laws and Theories are used differently, and Theory is not used to denote that something is "unsure." I respectfully doubt the education of people who think that because evolution is a "theory" that it is somehow not true, or in doubt as it regards to scientific community.

golly, silly me I know a sinner that has a masters in biology and works for the usda and doesn't believe in the toe. she has also another major in that related field. they aren't that rare.one of two that I know.

 

[Gary]

If something is well suited to it's environment, then why would the need for change arise?

Exactly.

So I have ask, if something isn't well suited to it's environment, wouldn't they just die off? The evolutionary process doesn't happen overnight. It involves hundreds of thousands of years. How can something live that long in an environment that they aren't suited for?

It should be noted that the context is referring to the gospel, specifically the foolishness of the message in proclaiming a crucified savior who is a stumbling block go Jews and foolishness to Gentiles. This text isn't about Creationism, and I don't see how you can rip it out of it's context and serve any kind of foolish supposition.

Regardless of the context, the message still holds true.
.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Exactly.

So I have ask, if something isn't well suited to it's environment, wouldn't they just die off? The evolutionary process doesn't happen overnight. It involves hundreds of thousands of years. How can something live that long in an environment that they aren't suited for?

Can you find an example of an organism that would be considered a living fossil that isn't suited to it's environment? If not, then I don't know how your argument makes any sense.

Regardless of the context, the message still holds true.

Yes it does, because the message holds to the message of the Cross, not Young Earth Creationism.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

golly, silly me I know a sinner that has a masters in biology and works for the usda and doesn't believe in the toe. she has also another major in that related field. they aren't that rare.one of two that I know.

Biologists who are not evolutionists are extremely rare actually.