Humanity "in Adam" after the fall."In Christ" after faith

[Grubal Muruch]

After the fall of Adam & Eve, humanity was made a sinner. Through Adam's "choice" to sin. Then, some while later Abraham came along and was considered a "man of faith." Galatians 3:6---"Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." A covenant was made between God and Abraham based upon the faith of Abraham. One of the promises was that the Messiah would come through the linage of Isaac his son. Jesus came and took upon Himself the sins of a world that were "in Adam." Christ died and resurrected and is and was the "only hope" for a world of lost sinners. Christ died for ALL. However, only those that "come by faith" (as Abraham) will be saved and placed "in Christ," as opposed to being "in Adam," because of sin. (Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned") Romans 5:12

The faith of man has always been pleasing and acceptable to God (in the O.T and the N.T.) We cannot be saved without it. Hebrew 11:6 states, "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Abraham believed God, and it hasn't changed for us, when it comes to salvation...

 

[mondar]

After the fall of Adam & Eve, humanity was made a sinner. Through Adam's "choice" to sin.

Of course Adam made a choice. That is not the question of "free will" at all. That question has to do with human nature after the fall.

............Jesus came and took upon Himself the sins of a world that were "in Adam." Christ died and resurrected and is and was the "only hope" for a world of lost sinners. Christ died for ALL. However, only those that "come by faith" (as Abraham) will be saved and placed "in Christ," as opposed to being "in Adam," because of sin. (Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned") Romans 5:12

I am glad you are reading Romans 5. It is a very important text. The text talks about two humanities, those in Adam and those in Christ. You quoted Romans 5:12 which speaks of death and sin being passed on to all men. Of course that is in the text. You also speak of Christ dieing for all men in Adam. That is not in the text. Roman 5:12 does not even have Christ in view... a few verses later in verse 15 the work of Christ is introduced....
Rom 5:15 But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many. In this verse, the word "many" is used. The two words speak of different groups. The many in Adam receive the trespass in Adam. The many in Christ receive the "gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ." So then, when Christ died, it was a gift to those in him.

The point I am trying to make is that the text of Romans 5 nowhere says there are any benefits to those in Adam. The only benefits mentioned are to those "in Christ." Jesus then did not take upon himself the sins of those in Adam, but only those who are in Christ.

The faith of man has always been pleasing and acceptable to God (in the O.T and the N.T.) We cannot be saved without it. Hebrew 11:6 states, "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Abraham believed God, and it hasn't changed for us, when it comes to salvation...

Of course! I would only add that faith is the only human requirement mentioned in the scriptures for justification. There is no other human requirement other then faith. And faith is the result of being "begotten of God." (See 1 John 5:1)

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Of course Adam made a choice. That is not the question of "free will" at all. That question has to do with human nature after the fall.



I am glad you are reading Romans 5. It is a very important text. The text talks about two humanities, those in Adam and those in Christ. You quoted Romans 5:12 which speaks of death and sin being passed on to all men. Of course that is in the text. You also speak of Christ dieing for all men in Adam. That is not in the text. Roman 5:12 does not even have Christ in view... a few verses later in verse 15 the work of Christ is introduced....
Rom 5:15 But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many. In this verse, the word "many" is used. The two words speak of different groups. The many in Adam receive the trespass in Adam. The many in Christ receive the "gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ." So then, when Christ died, it was a gift to those in him.

The point I am trying to make is that the text of Romans 5 nowhere says there are any benefits to those in Adam. The only benefits mentioned are to those "in Christ." Jesus then did not take upon himself the sins of those in Adam, but only those who are in Christ.





Of course! I would only add that faith is the only human requirement mentioned in the scriptures for justification. There is no other human requirement other then faith. And faith is the result of being "begotten of God." (See 1 John 5:1)

Mondar---Of course Adam made a choice. That is not the question of "free will" at all. That question has to do with human nature after the fall.

Grubal---First of all, the fact that Adam "made a choice" is a "proof" of man's "free will." Adam had free will and ALL of humanity have that same free-will...Without Christ, humanity is, "in Adam" with Christ, humanity is "in Christ."

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Mondar, Christ died for a world of lost sinners. Only those who place their faith will be saved...

 

[glorydaz]

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

I'd like to first address what being "in Adam" means....

It's death that has passed upon all men. Men sin because they are born into a world in which sin and death are present. Sin and death entered the world because of the disobedience of one man, Adam.

Does "all have sinned" necessitate the impurity of the parents is transmitted to their children? No. Where there is no law, sin is not imputed, but DEATH still reigns over all....even over those who had not sinned like Adam. How can there be those who have not sinned like Adam if everyone automatically inherits a "sin nature" from Adam? Physical death is what we inherit from Adam, and we inherit a world in which sin exists.

Impurity is not transmitted by parents. The impurity of children is not the result of being born "sinners", but is the result of living in a world in which sin and death exist. It's like that old saying, "Only the good die young...the rest of us get corrupted."

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;587926]I'd like to first address what being "in Adam" means....

It's death that has passed upon all men. Men sin because they are born into a world in which sin and death are present. Sin and death entered the world because of the disobedience of one man, Adam.

What you neglect to mention regarding sin and death is that through the knowledge of good and evil men were changed. The disobedience of Adam brought that knowledge upon all mankind.

Does "all have sinned" necessitate the impurity of the parents is transmitted to their children? No.

Jesus describes our predicament. Matthew 11:16-19.

Where there is no law, sin is not imputed, but DEATH still reigns over all....even over those who had not sinned like Adam. How can there be those who have not sinned like Adam if everyone automatically inherits a "sin nature" from Adam?

Because they sinned in a different manner.

Physical death is what we inherit from Adam, and we inherit a world in which sin exists.

Jesus did not have sin yet he was in the world. Why? Because he was not born of Adam but was begotten by the Father, the Word made flesh.

Impurity is not transmitted by parents.

Corruption begets corruption. One cannot bring purity out of impurity, such is the way with spiritual matters. Darkness cannot produce light nor does it comprehend the light. Hence Jesus is seen as a light in the darkness and only what light we have left
is what recognizes him. That light is Godly love.

 

[glorydaz]

What you neglect to mention regarding sin and death is that through the knowledge of good and evil men were changed. The disobedience of Adam brought that knowledge upon all mankind.
Jesus describes our predicament. Matthew 11:16-19.

The knowledge of good and evil meant that man was now aware of good and evil. God knew they had eaten from the tree because they hid their nakedness from God. They were self-conscious before God and felt guilt. They were more like God as they were now aware of what sin was.

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Because they sinned in a different manner.

What would that "different manner" be, since sin is disobedience to God?

No, it's because some had died before they'd sinned at all, undoubtedly speaking of babies and young children.

Jesus did not have sin yet he was in the world. Why? Because he was not born of Adam but was begotten by the Father, the Word made flesh.

Uh, Adam wasn't my father either, so that must mean I don't have that sin nature. ;)
Of course Jesus was a descendant of Adam...every human is.
Matthew traces Jesus's geneology back to Abraham, and Luke traces it back to Adam.
Unless Jesus was a created being, he comes from the loins of Adam on his mother's side.
He had no sin nature...which kind of shoots down any argument about man's sin nature, doesn't it?

Man having a sin nature is refuted by Jesus himself. There was no sin in Him, and yet he was fully man.
Of course it's a necessary part of certain "doctrines of men," like total depravity, but it is not supported by Scripture.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;588154]The knowledge of good and evil meant that man was now aware of good and evil. God knew they had eaten from the tree because they hid their nakedness from God. They were self-conscious before God and felt guilt. They were more like God as they were now aware of what sin was.

So first you say men knew what they were doing before they ate and then say they now know only after eating?

What would that "different manner" be, since sin is disobedience to God?

Sin is greater than disobedience. Sin is seperation from God wherein we need reconciliation. There are many manners of sin. For some it is sin to eat to much because they cannot control their eating while to others it is not. To some they cannot control their drinking so it is sin to them to drink but to others not. Whatever is lust and lust comes in different forms.

No, it's because some had died before they'd sinned at all, undoubtedly speaking of babies and young children.

Not even decent conjecture.

Uh, Adam wasn't my father either, so that must mean I don't have that sin nature. ;)

Ha, Ha.

Of course Jesus was a descendant of Adam...every human is.
Matthew traces Jesus's geneology back to Abraham, and Luke traces it back to Adam.
Unless Jesus was a created being, he comes from the loins of Adam on his mother's side.
He had no sin nature...which kind of shoots down any argument about man's sin nature, doesn't it?

Not at all. Simply because Jesus was begotten not made. For Jesus to have a sin nature God would have to have sin.

Man having a sin nature is refuted by Jesus himself. There was no sin in Him, and yet he was fully man.

As the Word he existed before man.

Of course it's a necessary part of certain "doctrines of men," like total depravity, but it is not supported by Scripture.

It's supported everywhere that God is the light of man and apart from Him there is no goodness in man.

 

[glorydaz]

So first you say men knew what they were doing before they ate and then say they now know only after eating?


Sin is greater than disobedience. Sin is seperation from God wherein we need reconciliation. There are many manners of sin. For some it is sin to eat to much because they cannot control their eating while to others it is not. To some they cannot control their drinking so it is sin to them to drink but to others not. Whatever is lust and lust comes in different forms.

Not even decent conjecture.



Ha, Ha.


Not at all. Simply because Jesus was begotten not made. For Jesus to have a sin nature God would have to have sin.

As the Word he existed before man.

It's supported everywhere that God is the light of man and apart from Him there is no goodness in man.

If this is the fruit of the Tulip plant, I'm glad I haven't ingested it.

 

[childeye]

If this is the fruit of the Tulip plant, I'm glad I haven't ingested it.

I'm not a Calvinist if that's what you mean.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

If this is the fruit of the Tulip plant, I'm glad I haven't ingested it.

It's best to stay away from "poisonous" plants...

 

[glorydaz]

It's best to stay away from "poisonous" plants...

True, and some can look so pretty and seem so harmless, but ......

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;588360]True, and some can look so pretty and seem so harmless, but ......

You give scripture that undermines your own position that men all know right from wrong.

Originally Posted by Proverbs 16:25
There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

 

[glorydaz]

You give scripture that undermines your own position that men all know right from wrong.

Originally Posted by Proverbs 16:25
There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

All men do know right from wrong, and this verse does nothing to contradict that.

It does, however, speak to what we were talking about at the time, which is a false view of certain doctrines. Because of those doctrines, a man may have an imperfect repentance or a false faith. He may even believe he is heaven bound when he isn't. Papists thought they were in the right when they were burning the Saints of God, but they weren't. They ignored their own conscience that told them it was wrong to murder, and they chose to listen to their "church". They were listening to false teachers, but that does not mean God won't hold them accountable when they choose to listen to untruths.

There was no excuse for them and there is no excuse for anyone else.

 

[childeye]

All men do know right from wrong, and this verse does nothing to contradict that.

It does, however, speak to what we were talking about at the time, which is a false view of certain doctrines. Because of those doctrines, a man may have an imperfect repentance or a false faith. He may even believe he is heaven bound when he isn't. Papists thought they were in the right when they were burning the Saints of God, but they weren't. They ignored their own conscience that told them it was wrong to murder, and they chose to listen to their "church". They were listening to false teachers, but that does not mean God won't hold them accountable when they choose to listen to untruths.

There was no excuse for them and there is no excuse for anyone else.

Glorydaz we have Jesus being crucified by men who are following orders and certainly Jesus is forgiving them. We see Jesus saying the sick need a doctor. We see Jesus saying the prostitutes sins are forgiven because her love is great. There is no excuse you say but Jesus says otherwise. We are judged according to what measure we use to judge others. So I am excusing those who tresspass against me even as Jesus taught us to forgive, and because I understand the fealty of men being that I am one. So I ask this, don't you fear there's no excuse for your holding down the Truth in unrighteousness, while you claim men are without excuse, even as if you're not a man?

 

[smaller]

Glorydaz we have Jesus being crucified by men who are following orders and certainly Jesus is forgiving them. We see Jesus saying the sick need a doctor. We see Jesus saying the prostitutes sins are forgiven because her love is great. There is no excuse you say but Jesus says otherwise. We are judged according to what measure we use to judge others. So I am excusing those who tresspass against me even as Jesus taught us to forgive, and because I understand the fealty of men being that I am one. So I ask this, don't you fear there's no excuse for your holding down the Truth in unrighteousness, while you claim men are without excuse, even as if you're not a man?

You have undoubtedly 'learned' a very real lesson of active faith. To receive Divine Mercy one must dispense same to others. To receive forgiveness one must also deliver same to others. That IS in fact how 'faith' works, especially according to Jesus.

What one will commonly see in most religious organizations is the opposite of those simple measures. Yes, you will find lip service, but even as in the opening post 'faith' in many translates to this: I am justified and you are not if you don't believe 'like me.'

What happened to Adam happens to us all just as Jesus taught. The Word is sown in us, the tempter enters to deceive, to steal and eventually to kill. That is the role of the tempter. Yet rather than deal with the reality of the entrance of the tempter into the heart of Adam, and thusly also into his 'inner man' Eve, the tempter leads believers to only blame THE CHOICE OF ADAM or of EVE and to ignore the fact of the tempter WITHIN THEM.

The Words of Blessings of God were sown upon Adam by God.
THEN this is what happened, just as Jesus taught:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

After the Word of blessings to Adam how soon did the above happen?

Immediately!

From that point on it is futile to look at Adam alone in his so called and supposed 'choices.' Why? Because Satan entered the heart of Adam and deceived and stole and eventually killed him.

How then should one view Adam? There is Adam and there is the TEMPTER who entered his heart and deceived, stole and killed him.

This is rightfully how 'all' people should be viewed from the point of Adam onward. It is downright laughable to hear believers chortling about the choices of Adam when Adam himself was clearly not 'alone' in these matters. The lawless one ENTERED the heart of Adam exactly how Jesus taught us.

Some will say, well, how do we know that happened to Adam? It's very simple. The next Words from God to Adam was THE LAW. That LAW was DO NOT EAT and we know from the scriptures that the LAW is for THE LAWLESS. And we also know that the TEMPTER is LAWLESS.

The Law then was not just delivered to Adam, but the LAWLESSNESS of the TEMPTER that was WITHIN the heart of Adam.

The non-fruit of the tempter is encountered immediately in the first offspring of Adam and Eve. Cain was the elder son. Abel the younger. This is the first picture of this principle in the text. The elder is a representative of the ancient SERPENT, the worker of darkness in the heart of Cain who was MADE prior to Adam and prior to any of humanity. If you go through the scriptures you will find many physical examples of this fact, but it is meant to convey a picture of that which is within our hearts and that is the TEMPTER. Wonder why God hated Esau? God hated the TEMPTER within the heart of Esau. Wonder why God favored the younger son of Joseph, Ephraim, rather than Manneseh? Same principle in play. Twin like.

There are many such examples of God favoring the younger and that is a SPIRITUAL picture of God favoring HUMANITY and NOT the Tempter within our hearts. It's a very simple lesson really.

Satan, the tempter was assuredly in the heart of Cain also as he was A MURDERER. The scriptures again also tell us this is so:

1 John 3:12
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

This does not mean that Abel had no sin. Not at all. Both men were just as all mankind are. Sinners. But Abel overcame the tempter and Cain was snared by him and was overcome. Neither man should be viewed alone, but we know 'who' is in charge within their hearts by simply observing their actions.

This exercise within each person is the exercise that God Himself has decreed for all mankind:

Ecclesiastes 1:13
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

Ecclesiastes 3:10
I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.

Good and Evil assuredly exists within the hearts of ALL mankind. Of this there is no doubt. So to paint FAITH upon the lips as if EVIL no longer resides in the heart is really the HEIGHT of LIE within the heart and really shows the deception of EVIL within that person. Believers are clearly 'exercised' with GOOD and with EVIL, even moreso after salvation because now we are Satan's enemies.

Paul taught us clearly in a first hand example that EVIL is with us as it was with him:

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Many believers ripple in anger when this little fact is presented to them, but in reality it is the TEMPTER within their hearts who is rippling with anger when this fact is brought forth. The human body is the hiding place of the TEMPTER. He does not WANT LIGHT to be shed upon this fact. He just wants to blame and accuse MANKIND only. And if you look at some of the posters in this thread, that is EXACTLY what they do. But who is doing it, really? I already know it is NOT THEM as Gods child, but the tempter within them, falsely justifying himself and accusing others. That is not the child of God speaking.

The child of God knows FROM GOD how to overcome the Tempter.

We GIVE as we truly WANT in our hearts. That is the FRUIT of the SPIRIT coming forth in THE GOOD TREE.

A bad tree can NOT produce that FRUIT. And now you know who the 'real' bad tree is, don't you?

3 John 1:11
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good.
He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God

And I also know as I write this, that all children of God will hear and the Tempter will be very mad within their hearts and will show his ugly face in MOST. You see the ELDER VESSEL comes forth FIRST!

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Grubal Muruch]

You have undoubtedly 'learned' a very real lesson of active faith. To receive Divine Mercy one must dispense same to others. To receive forgiveness one must also deliver same to others. That IS in fact how 'faith' works, especially according to Jesus.

What one will commonly see in most religious organizations is the opposite of those simple measures. Yes, you will find lip service, but even as in the opening post 'faith' in many translates to this: I am justified and you are not if you don't believe 'like me.'

What happened to Adam happens to us all just as Jesus taught. The Word is sown in us, the tempter enters to deceive, to steal and eventually to kill. That is the role of the tempter. Yet rather than deal with the reality of the entrance of the tempter into the heart of Adam, and thusly also into his 'inner man' Eve, the tempter leads believers to only blame THE CHOICE OF ADAM or of EVE and to ignore the fact of the tempter WITHIN THEM.

The Words of Blessings of God were sown upon Adam by God.
THEN this is what happened, just as Jesus taught:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

After the Word of blessings to Adam how soon did the above happen?

Immediately!

From that point on it is futile to look at Adam alone in his so called and supposed 'choices.' Why? Because Satan entered the heart of Adam and deceived and stole and eventually killed him.

How then should one view Adam? There is Adam and there is the TEMPTER who entered his heart and deceived, stole and killed him.

This is rightfully how 'all' people should be viewed from the point of Adam onward. It is downright laughable to hear believers chortling about the choices of Adam when Adam himself was clearly not 'alone' in these matters. The lawless one ENTERED the heart of Adam exactly how Jesus taught us.

Some will say, well, how do we know that happened to Adam? It's very simple. The next Words from God to Adam was THE LAW. That LAW was DO NOT EAT and we know from the scriptures that the LAW is for THE LAWLESS. And we also know that the TEMPTER is LAWLESS.

The Law then was not just delivered to Adam, but the LAWLESSNESS of the TEMPTER that was WITHIN the heart of Adam.

The non-fruit of the tempter is encountered immediately in the first offspring of Adam and Eve. Cain was the elder son. Abel the younger. This is the first picture of this principle in the text. The elder is a representative of the ancient SERPENT, the worker of darkness in the heart of Cain who was MADE prior to Adam and prior to any of humanity. If you go through the scriptures you will find many physical examples of this fact, but it is meant to convey a picture of that which is within our hearts and that is the TEMPTER. Wonder why God hated Esau? God hated the TEMPTER within the heart of Esau. Wonder why God favored the younger son of Joseph, Ephraim, rather than Manneseh? Same principle in play. Twin like.

There are many such examples of God favoring the younger and that is a SPIRITUAL picture of God favoring HUMANITY and NOT the Tempter within our hearts. It's a very simple lesson really.

Satan, the tempter was assuredly in the heart of Cain also as he was A MURDERER. The scriptures again also tell us this is so:

1 John 3:12
Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

This does not mean that Abel had no sin. Not at all. Both men were just as all mankind are. Sinners. But Abel overcame the tempter and Cain was snared by him and was overcome. Neither man should be viewed alone, but we know 'who' is in charge within their hearts by simply observing their actions.

This exercise within each person is the exercise that God Himself has decreed for all mankind:

Ecclesiastes 1:13
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

Ecclesiastes 3:10
I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.

Good and Evil assuredly exists within the hearts of ALL mankind. Of this there is no doubt. So to paint FAITH upon the lips as if EVIL no longer resides in the heart is really the HEIGHT of LIE within the heart and really shows the deception of EVIL within that person. Believers are clearly 'exercised' with GOOD and with EVIL, even moreso after salvation because now we are Satan's enemies.

Paul taught us clearly in a first hand example that EVIL is with us as it was with him:

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Many believers ripple in anger when this little fact is presented to them, but in reality it is the TEMPTER within their hearts who is rippling with anger when this fact is brought forth. The human body is the hiding place of the TEMPTER. He does not WANT LIGHT to be shed upon this fact. He just wants to blame and accuse MANKIND only. And if you look at some of the posters in this thread, that is EXACTLY what they do. But who is doing it, really? I already know it is NOT THEM as Gods child, but the tempter within them, falsely justifying himself and accusing others. That is not the child of God speaking.

The child of God knows FROM GOD how to overcome the Tempter.

We GIVE as we truly WANT in our hearts. That is the FRUIT of the SPIRIT coming forth in THE GOOD TREE.

A bad tree can NOT produce that FRUIT. And now you know who the 'real' bad tree is, don't you?

3 John 1:11
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good.
He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God

And I also know as I write this, that all children of God will hear and the Tempter will be very mad within their hearts and will show his ugly face in MOST. You see the ELDER VESSEL comes forth FIRST!

enjoy!

smaller

It would be a, far better idea to speak about the things of God than to create a "diatribe" about evil...

 

[smaller]

It would be a, far better idea to speak about the things of God than to create a "diatribe" about evil...

And it would be even better to engage in factual discussions rather than the continual false spin doctoring applied to my posts!

There are very certain scriptural facts in my posts if you care to address them on a factual exchange basis. One liner straw man spin doctoring is and remains irrelevant and unnecessary.

s

 

[Grubal Muruch]

And it would be even better to engage in factual discussions rather than the continual false spin doctoring applied to my posts!

There are very certain scriptural facts in my posts if you care to address them on a factual exchange basis. One liner straw man spin doctoring is and remains irrelevant and unnecessary.

s

Actually, I'm sorry but I don't read 90% or so what you write, because I can gather from the other 10% pretty much where your coming from...It would be a "futile" attempt to counter your position, you would only resort with "argumentation" and denial...

 

[smaller]

Actually, I'm sorry but I don't read 90% or so what you write, .

That is VERY obvious. Your conclusions however are also VERY faulty from not not attempting to grapple with facts.

But hey, as a famous preacher I kinda like says, "I'm not OK and you're not OK, but that's OK"

s