Humanity "in Adam" after the fall."In Christ" after faith

[glorydaz]

Sorry, glorydaz, but smaller was quoting Jesus. I never said I don't put stock in the bible. I just don't put stock in men's differing interpretations. You are mistaken.
As for posting scripture, it is true sometimes I am too busy to look everything up for you when I write. But still the essential point I am getting at is represented by scripture however I quote it as I understand it. As my experience with you goes you disregard it either way. Always there are two differing perspectives. Please note you have said God gave us the choice to disobey Him. I do not agree. You see God saying choose life or death and point to it as a choice. I see the same thing and see an ultimatum.

Smaller was twisting what Jesus had said to his own purpose. I certainly won't let that go...wherever I see it.

You see it as an ultimatum? How does that change the fact that we are told to choose by God?

 

[childeye]

Smaller was twisting what Jesus had said to his own purpose. I certainly won't let that go...wherever I see it.

Smaller simply spoke honestly in using scripture to make his point. Receive him as you would want to be received.

You see it as an ultimatum? How does that change the fact that we are told to choose by God?

It doesn't change what God said nor do I deny that God used the term choose. Nor do I deny that we make a choice, or whatever you might think that would lead you to have a suspicious and accusing demeanor. All I've said is we don't choose freely since God has given us an ultimatum. I've also previously pointed out that regardless that we would all choose the blessing and to do the commandments, we didn't keep them as we ought. Hence we are all sinners. So in other words I could choose to be or desire to be righteous, but that does not make me righteous, as God has proven. Now this was the Old Testament which had become death to us and wherein we are witnesses against ourselves. The realization of this makes me understand why Jesus would say we need to forgive others so that we may obtain forgiveness.
That too is an ultimatum.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Smaller simply spoke honestly in using scripture to make his point. Receive him as you would want to be received.
It doesn't change what God said nor do I deny that God used the term choose. Nor do I deny that we make a choice, or whatever you might think that would lead you to have a suspicious and accusing demeanor. All I've said is we don't choose freely since God has given us an ultimatum. I've also previously pointed out that regardless that we would all choose the blessing and to do the commandments, we didn't keep them as we ought. Hence we are all sinners. So in other words I could choose to be or desire to be righteous, but that does not make me righteous, as God has proven. Now this was the Old Testament which had become death to us and wherein we are witnesses against ourselves. The realization of this makes me understand why Jesus would say we need to forgive others so that we may obtain forgiveness.
That too is an ultimatum.

We ARE already forgiven of ALL our sins, that was done by Christ dying on the cross and being resurrected...Christ was speaking to the "house of Israel" when He made the statement about "forgiving others" He had yet to go to the cross to die for "ALL" of our sins...We are forgiven because of His sacrificial death and resurrection...There's "Only" one "unforgivable" sin...And it's not, our lack of forgiving others my friend...

 

[childeye]

We ARE already forgiven of ALL our sins, that was done by Christ dying on the cross and being resurrected...Christ was speaking to the "house of Israel" when He made the statement about "forgiving others" He had yet to go to the cross to die for "ALL" of our sins...We are forgiven because of His sacrificial death and resurrection...There's "Only" one "unforgivable" sin...And it's not, our lack of forgiving others my friend...

We don't have to forgive Grubal, nor does God. But we will be judged by whatever measure we use to judge.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

We don't have to forgive Grubal, nor does God. But we will be judged by whatever measure we use to judge.

Childeye---Our sins (true believers sins that is) were dealt with at the cross. Now a "true believer" may suffer loss of reward in the "hereafter" but their sins are not held accountable to them because of Christ...

 

[glorydaz]

Smaller simply spoke honestly in using scripture to make his point. Receive him as you would want to be received.

If I was doing any scripture twisting, I would want someone to point it out. That's a dangerous thing we should all avoid at all costs. Let the Scripture speak for itself. It's plainly written. The problem is getting people to actually read it so they don't come off the wall with stange notions that have nothing to do with what is being said. That's when correction is necessary.

It doesn't change what God said nor do I deny that God used the term choose. Nor do I deny that we make a choice, or whatever you might think that would lead you to have a suspicious and accusing demeanor. All I've said is we don't choose freely since God has given us an ultimatum.

You betcha He's given us an ultimatum. He's done all the work for us, and only asks one thing from us....to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. To choose Him over all the lusts of the world we revel in on a daily basis. He doesn't beat around the bush and nambie pambie us with "reasons" for why we MUST come to Him through faith in His Son. It's an either or propostion. Do or die. To even suggest we "can't choose freely" is nothing more than making excuses. And God says there are NONE.

I've also previously pointed out that regardless that we would all choose the blessing and to do the commandments, we didn't keep them as we ought. Hence we are all sinners. So in other words I could choose to be or desire to be righteous, but that does not make me righteous, as God has proven. Now this was the Old Testament which had become death to us and wherein we are witnesses against ourselves. The realization of this makes me understand why Jesus would say we need to forgive others so that we may obtain forgiveness.
That too is an ultimatum.

No, you couldn't CHOOSE or DESIRE to be righteous. Never in a hundred years. We are only considered Righteous when we are IN CHRIST. No amount of "desiring" to be righteous on your part will make you righteous. You can forgive others til the cows come home, but you just can't do it well enough to earn salvation. You have this mistaken notion that you can love your way into heaven. It doesn't work that way...your love will never be good enough for that.

You must be born again of the Spirit.
That involves a very intricate surgery on your heart. You can't perform it, it has to be done by God.

 

[childeye]

Childeye---Our sins (true believers sins that is) were dealt with at the cross. Now a "true believer" may suffer loss of reward in the "hereafter" but their sins are not held accountable to them because of Christ...

Yes if they are true believers they will not condemn others and they will be forgiven even as they forgive others. The merciful shall receive mercy.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

If I was doing any scripture twisting, I would want someone to point it out. That's a dangerous thing we should all avoid at all costs. Let the Scripture speak for itself. It's plainly written. The problem is getting people to actually read it so they don't come off the wall with stange notions that have nothing to do with what is being said. That's when correction is necessary.



You betcha He's given us an ultimatum. He's done all the work for us, and only asks one thing from us....to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. To choose Him over all the lusts of the world we revel in on a daily basis. He doesn't beat around the bush and nambie pambie us with "reasons" for why we MUST come to Him through faith in His Son. It's an either or propostion. Do or die. To even suggest we "can't choose freely" is nothing more than making excuses. And God says there are NONE.



No, you couldn't CHOOSE or DESIRE to be righteous. Never in a hundred years. We are only considered Righteous when we are IN CHRIST. No amount of "desiring" to be righteous on your part will make you righteous. You can forgive others til the cows come home, but you just can't do it well enough to earn salvation. You have this mistaken notion that you can love your way into heaven. It doesn't work that way...your love will never be good enough for that.

You must be born again of the Spirit.
That involves a very intricate surgery on your heart. You can't perform it, it has to be done by God.

AMEN and as always, "right on the money."

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Yes if they are true believers they will not condemn others and they will be forgiven even as they forgive others. The merciful shall receive mercy.

No, you just can't get it right...True believers don't have to do ANYTHING to get their sins forgiven. It was already done at the cross...

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;591401]If I was doing any scripture twisting, I would want someone to point it out. That's a dangerous thing we should all avoid at all costs. Let the Scripture speak for itself. It's plainly written. The problem is getting people to actually read it so they don't come off the wall with stange notions that have nothing to do with what is being said. That's when correction is necessary.

Well when you have no problem correcting everybody but you do not take correction yourself that's hypocrisy.

You betcha He's given us an ultimatum.

Well then quite saying we choose freely.

He's done all the work for us, and only asks one thing from us....to trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Correction. He calls the faithful to Christ. Christ divides the faithful from the unfaithful.

To choose Him over all the lusts of the world we revel in on a daily basis.

As I said all those who are given by God come. Above you said you would want to be corrected. I'll tell you what. You show me where it says in scripture word for word for us to choose Christ, and I will show you word for word where Christ receives whoever God gives to him, and whoever stands corrected should denounce their error for His Name's sake and quite misrepresenting his teachings. How about it?

To even suggest we "can't choose freely" is nothing more than making excuses.

To suggest that I, out of my freewill, without any revelation from God chose Christ, is an outright lie.

You have this mistaken notion that you can love your way into heaven. It doesn't work that way...your love will never be good enough for that.

You see here. This is your problem glorydaz, you apply beliefs to people that they never held and hence you come across as condescending through your misunderstanding. People try to correct you nicely, but noooooo, you become God's personal slayer and are determined to set people straight that are already as straight as God has made them to be. It would be wise to heed Christ's words and take the last seat at the table and show some Godly humility. I hope you would agree knowledge puffs up and I don't want to get in some carnal display of who knows more than who. Godly Love does not do that. Amen?

You must be born again of the Spirit.
That involves a very intricate surgery on your heart. You can't perform it, it has to be done by God.

But this is precisely what we are saying when we say we don't freely choose to be righteous. We're saying God performs a surgery that transforms us and therefore transforms our wills. I don't know how many times Reba has told you the will is not free till changed by the Truth. But noooooo, the will is always free, and you guys are just making excuses so you can sin all you want. No we're not. We're making excuses why we should forgive the blind for when they crucify us.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Well when you have no problem correcting everybody but you do not take correction yourself that's hypocrisy.


Well then quite saying we choose freely.

Correction. He calls the faithful to Christ. Christ divides the faithful from the unfaithful.

As I said all those who are given by God come. Above you said you would want to be corrected. I'll tell you what. You show me where it says in scripture word for word for us to choose Christ, and I will show you word for word where Christ receives whoever God gives to him, and whoever stands corrected should denounce their error for His Name's sake and quite misrepresenting his teachings. How about it?

To suggest that I, out of my freewill, without any revelation from God chose Christ, is an outright lie.





You see here. This is your problem glorydaz, you apply beliefs to people that they never held and hence you come across as condescending through your misunderstanding. People try to correct you nicely, but noooooo, you become God's personal slayer and are determined to set people straight that are already as straight as God has made them to be. It would be wise to heed Christ's words and take the last seat at the table and show some Godly humility. I hope you would agree knowledge puffs up and I don't want to get in some carnal display of who knows more than who. Godly Love does not do that. Amen?

But this is precisely what we are saying when we say we don't freely choose to be righteous. We're saying God performs a surgery that transforms us and therefore transforms our wills. I don't know how many times Reba has told you the will is not free till changed by the Truth. But noooooo, the will is always free, and you guys are just making excuses so yoiu can sin all you want. No we're not. We're making excuses why we should forgive the blind for when they crucify us.

Calm down childeye your starting to sound "hysterical"

 

[glorydaz]

No, you just can't get it right...True believers don't have to do ANYTHING to get their sins forgiven. It was already done at the cross...

Amen. People often get confused about this issue, but the scripture makes it clear that forgiving others has to do with our walk and our relationship with the Lord. What Jesus did for us on the cross cannot be altered, so forgiving others has nothing to do with our eternal salvation.

One washing by Christ makes us clean "every whit." Only our walk is affected by our sins, we must confess those to get back into a right relationship with the Lord. John 13:10 - "Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean,"

 

[childeye]

No, you just can't get it right...True believers don't have to do ANYTHING to get their sins forgiven. It was already done at the cross...

I'm just repeating what Jesus teaches Grubal. I didn't make up the merciful shall receive mercy, Jeus said it, and I'm believing in him when I practice what he preaches.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Amen. People often get confused about this issue, but the scripture makes it clear that forgiving others has to do with our walk and our relationship with the Lord. What Jesus did for us on the cross cannot be altered, so forgiving others has nothing to do with our eternal salvation.

One washing by Christ makes us clean "every whit." Only our walk is affected by our sins, we must confess those to get back into a right relationship with the Lord. John 13:10 - "Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean,"

Isaiah 1:18---Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I'm just repeating what Jesus teaches Grubal. I didn't make up the merciful shall receive mercy, Jeus said it, and I'm believing in him when I practice what he preaches.

childeye--Nothing gets in the way of our forgiveness at the cross. If we are Born again Spiritually...

 

[childeye]

Amen. People often get confused about this issue, but the scripture makes it clear that forgiving others has to do with our walk and our relationship with the Lord. What Jesus did for us on the cross cannot be altered, so forgiving others has nothing to do with our eternal salvation.

One washing by Christ makes us clean "every whit." Only our walk is affected by our sins, we must confess those to get back into a right relationship with the Lord. John 13:10 - "Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean,"

Matthew 18:32-35

King James Version (KJV)



32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

 

[childeye]

Calm down childeye your starting to sound "hysterical"

I assure you, Grubal, I am not hysterical.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Matthew 18:32-35

King James Version (KJV)



32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Childeye---The problem is, you can't SEE the truth that's in front of you because your not "born again" and I wish you were. But,you're not... Your like a blind person feeling his or her way around a area their not familiar with. You just cannot see...

 

[glorydaz]

Well when you have no problem correcting everybody but you do not take correction yourself that's hypocrisy.

When I'm corrected by another member of the body of Christ, then I'd give it some consideration. I will receive no correction from you since your are still a babe at best, speaking your own mind not that of the Lord.

Well then quite saying we choose freely.

Because it's an ultimatum does NOT mean we can't choose freely.

Let's give you an example. If I tell my son not to take my car without asking, or I'll never let him drive it again. That's an ultimatum. It's his FREE CHOICE. You can't see that?

Correction. He calls the faithful to Christ. Christ divides the faithful from the unfaithful.

As I said all those who are given by God come. Above you said you would want to be corrected. I'll tell you what. You show me where it says in scripture word for word for us to choose Christ, and I will show you word for word where Christ receives whoever God gives to him, and whoever stands corrected should denounce their error for His Name's sake and quite misrepresenting his teachings. How about it?

Go for it. I suppose you're going to claim that only some are able to come and the rest are damned by God.
If that's your argument, you don't know God.

I'll just throw out one of the many verses, but only the spiritual man will understand the Bible, so I'm not sure you'll get it. The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God.....they are foolishness to him.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Luke 18:22 - Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Matthew 11:28-30 - "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

Matt. 10:32-33 - "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

John 11:25 - Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Now here's the best, THE WORD makes it very clear...or are you denying that Jesus is the Lord, THE WORD OF GOD, THE GREAT I AM.

Deuteronomy 30:19 - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

To suggest that I, out of my freewill, without any revelation from God chose Christ, is an outright lie.

No, I can see that you haven't. You really should get that done.

You see here. This is your problem glorydaz, you apply beliefs to people that they never held and hence you come across as condescending through your misunderstanding. People try to correct you nicely, but noooooo, you become God's personal slayer and are determined to set people straight that are already as straight as God has made them to be. It would be wise to heed Christ's words and take the last seat at the table and show some Godly humility. I hope you would agree knowledge puffs up and I don't want to get in some carnal display of who knows more than who. Godly Love does not do that. Amen?

But this is precisely what we are saying when we say we don't freely choose to be righteous. We're saying God performs a surgery that transforms us and therefore transforms our wills. I don't know how many times Reba has told you the will is not free till changed by the Truth. But noooooo, the will is always free, and you guys are just making excuses so you can sin all you want. No we're not. We're making excuses why we should forgive the blind for when they crucify us.

I make no claims. I simply put forth the Word and it does the convicting. I like Reba a lot, but I take my counsel from the Holy Spirit. I do love how you assume I am sinning all I want.

 

[smaller]

Always there are two differing perspectives. Those who follow the letter of the word and those who follow the Spirit of the Word.

Good pick up childeye.

In the scripture often quoted over 'choose' life, that is actually A COMMAND or a LAW.

When the other two guys wanna get real on the scriptures regarding their own sins being linked to the devil or the multitude of other scriptures showing Satan in Apostles or DEVILS upon them they can tell me how immune they are.

In the meantime I know that I am not always dealing with 'choosers' of life only. The tempter in mens hearts 'always chooses' DEATH regardless of their claims. One has simply to look at the produce of their faith or lack thereof as measured to their neighbors. It's called in street terms 'a dead giveaway.'

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