Humanity "in Adam" after the fall."In Christ" after faith

[Grubal Muruch]

When I'm corrected by another member of the body of Christ, then I'd give it some consideration. I will receive no correction from you since your are still a babe at best, speaking your own mind not that of the Lord.




Because it's an ultimatum does NOT mean we can't choose freely.

Let's give you an example. If I tell my son not to take my car without asking, or I'll never let him drive it again. That's an ultimatum. It's his FREE CHOICE. You can't see that?



Go for it. I suppose you're going to claim that only some are able to come and the rest are damned by God.
If that's your argument, you don't know God.

I'll just throw out one of the many verses, but only the spiritual man will understand the Bible, so I'm not sure you'll get it. The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God.....they are foolishness to him.



Luke 18:22 - Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Matthew 11:28-30 - "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

Matt. 10:32-33 - "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

John 11:25 - Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Now here's the best, THE WORD makes it very clear...or are you denying that Jesus is the Lord, THE WORD OF GOD, THE GREAT I AM.

Deuteronomy 30:19 - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:




No, I can see that you haven't. You really should get that done.




I make no claims. I simply put forth the Word and it does the convicting. I like Reba a lot, but I take my counsel from the Holy Spirit. I do love how you assume I am sinning all I want.

Glory, Everything you wrote was, of the truth...What you said is, "Spiritually discerned" not ALL can understand or except it unless they've been "born again Spiritually" AMEN to you and the wisdom God has bestowed upon you in His Son...

 

[glorydaz]

Matthew 18:32-35

King James Version (KJV)



32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Yes, the servant's relationship with the King was affected. That has nothing to do with eternal salvation or the fact that he was still the King's servant. Notice he was chastened until he paid all that was due.

 

[glorydaz]

Good pick up childeye.

In the scripture often quoted over 'choose' life, that is actually A COMMAND or a LAW.

When the other two guys wanna get real on the scriptures regarding their own sins being linked to the devil or the multitude of other scriptures showing Satan in Apostles or DEVILS upon them they can tell me how immune they are.

In the meantime I know that I am not always dealing with 'choosers' of life only. The tempter in mens hearts 'always chooses' DEATH regardless of their claims. One has simply to look at the produce of their faith or lack thereof as measured to their neighbors. It's called in street terms 'a dead giveaway.'

s

"Satan in Apostles or DEVILS upon them." Total heresy.

 

[reba]

Let's give you an example. If I tell my son not to take my car without asking, or I'll never let him drive it again. That's an ultimatum. It's his FREE CHOICE. You can't see that?

It is not free it has a penalty clause

 

[childeye]

Childeye---The problem is, you can't SEE the truth that's in front of you because your not "born again" and I wish you were. But,you're not... Your like a blind person feeling his or her way around a area their not familiar with. You just cannot see...

Well you keep saying I have a freewill to choose to see but now you say I can't see. Make up your mind or minds. I see well enough to give you scripture that says the same thing I said about forgiveness. I don't see any response about that. I think the reason you say I'm not born again is because I yet hope and don't count myself already saved and ready to move into my mansion in heaven... Am I correct?

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;591434]When I'm corrected by another member of the body of Christ, then I'd give it some consideration. I will receive no correction from you since your are still a babe at best, speaking your own mind not that of the Lord.

I've got no problem with being called a babe glorydaz. Out of the mouths of babes He brings forth praise unto Himself. It is not my desire to correct you either. Us babes just call them as we see them. We speak our minds alright as we see nothing wrong with it. Currently this is on my mind; The wise receive correction with joy but the fool despises correction. But as we know God rebuked balam with an ass.

Because it's an ultimatum does NOT mean we can't choose freely.

You mean be "disobedient" don't you? For if it is an ultimatum no one gave you a free choice.

Let's give you an example. If I tell my son not to take my car without asking, or I'll never let him drive it again. That's an ultimatum. It's his FREE CHOICE. You can't see that?

No I don't see that at all. We're not talking about not getting to drive the car. We're talking about life and death. Keep it real.

Originally Posted by childeye
Correction. He calls the faithful to Christ. Christ divides the faithful from the unfaithful.

As I said all those who are given by God come. Above you said you would want to be corrected. I'll tell you what. You show me where it says in scripture word for word for us to choose Christ, and I will show you word for word where Christ receives whoever God gives to him, and whoever stands corrected should denounce their error for His Name's sake and quite misrepresenting his teachings. How about it?

Go for it.

All of these verses say It must be given by God for a man to come to Christ.
John 6:65
King James Version (KJV)


65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John 6:37
King James Version (KJV)


37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:45
King James Version (KJV)


45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

I suppose you're going to claim that only some are able to come and the rest are damned by God.
If that's your argument, you don't know God.

Here's what you said in another post to me.

I see now that you are contemplating universal salvation.

You've made excuses for everyone when God says man is without excuse.

Just "let it go as a mistake?"

How can I respond forthrightly, when you are assigning to me two contrary positions neither of which I claimed?

I'll just throw out one of the many verses, but only the spiritual man will understand the Bible, so I'm not sure you'll get it. The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God.....they are foolishness to him.

If he has a freewill to choose freely he can just freely decide it's not foolish and receive it. You aren't starting out very convincing.

Luke 18:22 - Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

But this does not say to choose as in deliberate in your mind whether to choose Christ. It says what the person lacks and needs to perform and then says come follow me. He has not indicated there is a choice to take it or leave it and choice is not even spoken of. As a matter of fact, this person became an example of how hard it is for the rcih person to come to him. His will is torn by love of his possesions.

Matthew 11:28-30 - "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

This sounds like Jesus is asking, no begging people to come unto him and convincing them why they should. Again there is no take it or leave it choice indicated or spoken of. He is persuading people to believe. A good example of the neccesity of faith, but not freewill.

Matt. 10:32-33 - "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

This clearly is not about choice but is saying how it is going to be. Nothing in this verse says anything about all men being able to believe.

John 11:25 - Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

This is about belief not about freewill choice. Faith is again being indicated as a prerequisite. As stated above by your own choice of scripture, the carnal mind cannot discern spiritual things. Which is what I state to you all the time but you just dismiss it because I am a babe.

Now here's the best, THE WORD makes it very clear...or are you denying that Jesus is the Lord, THE WORD OF GOD, THE GREAT I AM.

Deuteronomy 30:19 - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

I am not denying That Christ is the great I am, but this is pertaining to the law which genders unto bondage. Christ is the Spirit of the law not the letter, and this Spirit comes by promise not choice. I therefore trust in Christ and that his Spirit in me "Love" will fulfill the law. It clearly says to choose between life and death but Christ had not yet come so this cannot be saying choose Christ. This is where we are at odds and why you persecute me. For I believe through promise and not by choice.Galatians 4:23-26
King James Version (KJV)



23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Galatians 4:31
King James Version (KJV)


31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Galatians 5:4
King James Version (KJV)


4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

No, I can see that you haven't. You really should get that done.

I'm only saying I was taught by God and then came to Christ just like Jesus said. I won't lie.

I make no claims. I simply put forth the Word and it does the convicting. I like Reba a lot, but I take my counsel from the Holy Spirit.

You should follow the Holy Spirit, but if Jesus is saying the Truth will set you free, and you are saying men were already free ,there is a problem with the spirit you're following. It doesn't agree with the Christ.

I do love how you assume I am sinning all I want.

I was saying that is what you think of us, you misunderstood. I never assume anyone wants to be a sinner.

 

[childeye]

Yes, the servant's relationship with the King was affected. That has nothing to do with eternal salvation or the fact that he was still the King's servant. Notice he was chastened until he paid all that was due.

It still makes my point.

 

[glorydaz]

It is not free it has a penalty clause

It is in our case because Jesus paid the penalty for us.

God had a penalty clause (Covenant), too, don't forget.

 

[glorydaz]

Well you keep saying I have a freewill to choose to see but now you say I can't see. Make up your mind or minds. I see well enough to give you scripture that says the same thing I said about forgiveness. I don't see any response about that. I think the reason you say I'm not born again is because I yet hope and don't count myself already saved and ready to move into my mansion in heaven... Am I correct?

You don't choose to exercise your freewill, because you refuse to believe you have a freewill. Instead you wait around hoping against hope you'll be one of those chosen of God, and not realizing those "chosen of God" were chosen because they freely came to Christ in faith."

If I didn't believe I could fly, I doubt I'd give it a try, either.
But those who are "born of God" have a genuine "assurance" without any doubts.

You must be born again... the Spirit bears witness with our spirit...that we are children of Godl...SAVED.

Romans 8:14-16 - "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"

Only then are we able to understand spiritual Truths from the Word of God (Bible).

 

[glorydaz]

Good pick up childeye.

In the scripture often quoted over 'choose' life, that is actually A COMMAND or a LAW.

When the other two guys wanna get real on the scriptures regarding their own sins being linked to the devil or the multitude of other scriptures showing Satan in Apostles or DEVILS upon them they can tell me how immune they are.

In the meantime I know that I am not always dealing with 'choosers' of life only. The tempter in mens hearts 'always chooses' DEATH regardless of their claims. One has simply to look at the produce of their faith or lack thereof as measured to their neighbors. It's called in street terms 'a dead giveaway.'

s

This is most certainly not a law or a command. "I have set before you life and death....choose life..."

Deuteronomy 30:19 - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

What? Like the 11th commandment or something?

11. Thou shalt choose life.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;591521]You don't choose to exercise your freewill, because you refuse to believe you have a freewill.

Everytime I thank God from my heart for His providence in the least of things I excercise my freewill. Everytime I complain and murmur over the least of things I excercise my enslaved will.

Instead you wait around hoping against hope

You've got that right.

you'll be one of those chosen of God, and not realizing those "chosen of God" were chosen because they freely came to Christ in faith."

Many will say Lord, Lord didn't we do all these works in your name? and He will say, I never knew you.

If I didn't believe I could fly, I doubt I'd give it a try, either.
But those who are "born of God" have a genuine "assurance" without any doubts.

I go day by day seeking to perservere in that Love that bears a cross. I seek to be contrite and not stumble in pride. I don't care about gaining eternal life, I care about pleasing God.

You must be born again... the Spirit bears witness with our spirit...that we are children of Godl...SAVED.

Yes I know, that doesn't stop the fact that there is work to do.

Romans 8:14-16 - "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"

Sigh... Yes I know this too. There's still work to do.

Only then are we able to understand spiritual Truths from the Word of God

I've said this all along. You are the one that said men have a freewill and know everything and have no excuse. I am one of many who have told you the carnal mind cannot be subject to God and that their will is yet captive.

 

[childeye]

This is most certainly not a law or a command. "I have set before you life and death....choose life..."

Deuteronomy 30:19 - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

What? Like the 11th commandment or something?

11. Thou shalt choose life.

This is Old Testament. It genders unto bondage, because it was meant to condemn all men as sinners. We can't choose life through the works of the law, it is a covenant with death.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Everytime I thank God from my heart for His providence in the least of things I excercise my freewill. Everytime I complain and murmur over the least of things I excercise my enslaved will.

You've got that right.

Many will say Lord, Lord didn't we do all these works in your name? and He will say, I never knew you.

I go day by day seeking to perservere in that Love that bears a cross. I seek to be contrite and not stumble in pride. I don't care about gaining eternal life, I care about pleasing God.

Yes I know, that doesn't stop the fact that there is work to do.

Sigh... Yes I know this too. There's still work to do.

I've said this all along. You are the one that said men have a freewill and know everything and have no excuse. I am one of many who have told you the carnal mind cannot be subject to God and that their will is yet captive.

Childeye, Your "extremely" confused about, "All things Spiritual." You seem to, "throw "speculation after speculation against the wall, hoping something will stick, but it never does...On one hand, you speak a lot "about the Lord" but then turn around and "admit" you don't know where you stand before Him...At some point in your life you'll have to, "make a decision," or else you'll spend the rest of your life "speculating" and not being "grounded" in anything...

 

[childeye]

Childeye, Your "extremely" confused about, "All things Spiritual." You seem to, "throw "speculation after speculation against the wall, hoping something will stick, but it never does...On one hand, you speak a lot "about the Lord" but then turn around and "admit" you don't know where you stand before Him...At some point in your life you'll have to, "make a decision," or else you'll spend the rest of your life "speculating" and not being "grounded" in anything...

You speculate about my speculation. But you are right about one thing, I speak about the Lord but do not claim to know where I stand with Him. My discernment of Spiritual things, is to take the last seat at the table and that is my decision because that is where I see solid ground. Why would this bother you?

 

[glorydaz]

Everytime I thank God from my heart for His providence in the least of things I excercise my freewill. Everytime I complain and murmur over the least of things I excercise my enslaved will.

Oh, so you're even giving excuse to the believer claiming your will is "enslaved" when you disobey God.

Didn't you know believers are freed from the law of sin and death? We're to reckon ourselves dead to sin. Sin has no more dominion over us. So how can you claim your will is enslaved when you murmer and complain. Just admit you chose to follow after the flesh instead of the Spirit even though you've been freed from the power of sin.

Many will say Lord, Lord didn't we do all these works in your name? and He will say, I never knew you.

True, those are the ones who claim to be saved but have not been filled with the Holy Spirit.

I go day by day seeking to perservere in that Love that bears a cross. I seek to be contrite and not stumble in pride. I don't care about gaining eternal life, I care about pleasing God.

Those aren't exclusive of each other. You can't please God unless you're born again. If you're born again, you will have eternal life.

Sigh... Yes I know this too. There's still work to do.

Not for you if you're the Lord's. You need only surrender your will and let God do the work in you.

I've said this all along. You are the one that said men have a freewill and know everything and have no excuse. I am one of many who have told you the carnal mind cannot be subject to God and that their will is yet captive.

What I said was God has given all men a conscience with the knowledge of God. The unsaved just don't know how to perform that which is good. Romans 7:18 - "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

After we're filled with the Spirit, we have found a way to perform that which is good. As we walk in the Spirit, we are free to walk in newness of Life. Romans 8:2-4 - For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

You speculate about my speculation. But you are right about one thing, I speak about the Lord but do not claim to know where I stand with Him. My discernment of Spiritual things, is to take the last seat at the table and that is my decision because that is where I see solid ground. Why would this bother you?

The problem is, "your seat" is "outside" of the truth...

 

[glorydaz]

This is Old Testament. It genders unto bondage, because it was meant to condemn all men as sinners. We can't choose life through the works of the law, it is a covenant with death.

This has nothing to do with the Law. What are you talking about?

Deuteronomy 30:18-20 - "I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them."

This is recorded in heaven not on tablets of stone.

Surely you don't dismiss everything in the Old Testament as the Law?

 

[glorydaz]

I've got no problem with being called a babe glorydaz. Out of the mouths of babes He brings forth praise unto Himself. It is not my desire to correct you either. Us babes just call them as we see them. We speak our minds alright as we see nothing wrong with it. Currently this is on my mind; The wise receive correction with joy but the fool despises correction. But as we know God rebuked balam with an ass.


You mean be "disobedient" don't you? For if it is an ultimatum no one gave you a free choice.

No I don't see that at all. We're not talking about not getting to drive the car. We're talking about life and death. Keep it real.


All of these verses say It must be given by God for a man to come to Christ.
John 6:65
King James Version (KJV)


65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John 6:37
King James Version (KJV)


37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:45
King James Version (KJV)


45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.






If he has a freewill to choose freely he can just freely decide it's not foolish and receive it. You aren't starting out very convincing.


But this does not say to choose as in deliberate in your mind whether to choose Christ. It says what the person lacks and needs to perform and then says come follow me. He has not indicated there is a choice to take it or leave it and choice is not even spoken of. As a matter of fact, this person became an example of how hard it is for the rcih person to come to him. His will is torn by love of his possesions.

This sounds like Jesus is asking, no begging people to come unto him and convincing them why they should. Again there is no take it or leave it choice indicated or spoken of. He is persuading people to believe. A good example of the neccesity of faith, but not freewill.

This clearly is not about choice but is saying how it is going to be. Nothing in this verse says anything about all men being able to believe.

This is about belief not about freewill choice. Faith is again being indicated as a prerequisite. As stated above by your own choice of scripture, the carnal mind cannot discern spiritual things. Which is what I state to you all the time but you just dismiss it because I am a babe.


I am not denying That Christ is the great I am, but this is pertaining to the law which genders unto bondage. Christ is the Spirit of the law not the letter, and this Spirit comes by promise not choice. I therefore trust in Christ and that his Spirit in me "Love" will fulfill the law. It clearly says to choose between life and death but Christ had not yet come so this cannot be saying choose Christ. This is where we are at odds and why you persecute me. For I believe through promise and not by choice.Galatians 4:23-26
King James Version (KJV)



23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Galatians 4:31
King James Version (KJV)


31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Galatians 5:4
King James Version (KJV)


4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.




I'm only saying I was taught by God and then came to Christ just like Jesus said. I won't lie.


You should follow the Holy Spirit, but if Jesus is saying the Truth will set you free, and you are saying men were already free ,there is a problem with the spirit you're following. It doesn't agree with the Christ.

I was saying that is what you think of us, you misunderstood. I never assume anyone wants to be a sinner.

Childeye, even new born babes in Christ have some spiritual discernment, and I see none from you. I won't even respond to your "comments". They make absolutetly no sense, and you keep claiming you "always say that" when you most certainly have not. You pick up little tidbits here and there, hoping to string them all together into something coherent. It isn't working. You need some one on one discipleship in the worst way. Before that could happen, though, you'd have to humble yourself and admit you know nothing about the things of God. I'm not saying you don't want to be loving and kind and all that, but you will never learn of God unless you first admit you need some help. You need to read the Bible...some actual time spent reading and meditating on the Word. It will speak to you as no "whispering" ever could.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Childeye, even new born babes in Christ have some spiritual discernment, and I see none from you. I won't even respond to your "comments". They make absolutetly no sense, and you keep claiming you "always say that" when you most certainly have not. You pick up little tidbits here and there, hoping to string them all together into something coherent. It isn't working. You need some one on one discipleship in the worst way. Before that could happen, though, you'd have to humble yourself and admit you know nothing about the things of God. I'm not saying you don't want to be loving and kind and all that, but you will never learn of God unless you first admit you need some help. You need to read the Bible...some actual time spent reading and meditating on the Word. It will speak to you as no "whispering" ever could.

AMEN...

 

[glorydaz]

You speculate about my speculation. But you are right about one thing, I speak about the Lord but do not claim to know where I stand with Him. My discernment of Spiritual things, is to take the last seat at the table and that is my decision because that is where I see solid ground. Why would this bother you?

Childeye, do you realize that the first step toward the Light is to admit you don't know where you stand with the Lord? The ball is in your court. The Lord will not drag you over the line. You must come to Him in prayer and tell Him that all your grandiose ideas of love are not enough. Ask Him to open your eyes to the Word as written in the Bible and read it until He speaks directly to you from the pages of the BOOK. Lay aside your preconceptions and just read it. Start with John chapter 1, read past where Jesus is the Word of God...remember He is also the Arm of God and the Hand of God. Let the Spirit quicken your understanding as you humble yourself before His throne of Grace.
I'll keep you in my prayers.