Hummm.....

[JM]

if God hates the wicked, how can He also love everyone at the same time?

 

[KaerbEmEvig]

He doesn't hate the wicked. Dwell into Judaism and and Hinduism and you will understand that it talks about karma and reincarnation. He can't hate himself, and that's what we are - parts of God. This doctrine has been created in middleage, to control villagers.

 

[Guest]

God certainly hates sin.

He shows his love to the sinful world by offering the free gift of Salvation to those who believe in His Son.

Because so many refuse to accept His Gift, His wrath will eventuially fall upon the world.

 

[Alannah]

There is verses throughout the Bible (I thought I had them written down, but now I canna find them) that say God's hates the sinner. Not just the sin, but the sinner that realizes what he is doing is wrong, and decietful and continues to do it. Because God is perfect and cannot even look on sin, then when you have sin in your life, He cannot look at you. That is why Jesus said, "My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me!" He said that because God had to turn His back on His Son, because His Son had taken our sins upon Him.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

Well, love is more than a feeling, but is characterized by an action. God died to make salvation available to all men, therefore God's love extends to all men, however, whomever is a blatant and unrepentant sinner is hated by God.

 

[Rick the holypig]

He doesn't hate the wicked. Dwell into Judaism and and Hinduism and you will understand that it talks about karma and reincarnation. He can't hate himself, and that's what we are - parts of God. This doctrine has been created in middleage, to control villagers.

if you were a Torah Jew ( a real Jew) you would know just how wrong your new age beliefs are. put away your cult books & return to the religion of your fathers before it is to late.

 

[KaerbEmEvig]

He doesn't hate the wicked. Dwell into Judaism and and Hinduism and you will understand that it talks about karma and reincarnation. He can't hate himself, and that's what we are - parts of God. This doctrine has been created in middleage, to control villagers.

if you were a Torah Jew ( a real Jew) you would know just how wrong your new age beliefs are. put away your cult books & return to the religion of your fathers before it is to late.

First of all, I'm not a Jew at all. Second - what new age beliefs are you talking about? Third - the only cult books I had relation with were Christian Bible. Fourth - exactly, that's what I'm trying to do, unlike you who is brainwashed and thinks Christianity didn't corrupt Judaistic teachings.

As on topic: God hates the sinner in a metaphorical way - when you understand karma, you can clearly assume that if it results in worse future rebirth(s), then you could describe this as hate.

 

[unred typo]

God hates the sinner because the sinner who refuses to repent forces him to execute justice instead of extending mercy. God is love and will, in the end, remove from his creation all things that offend and do not embrace love. Some people have become so self centered that they haven’t a shred of love in them. Even their love for others is just a ruse to gain control or favor to get more for their own fleshly lusts. Even then, it is God’s desire that they repent and turn from their wicked ways and be saved, because then God will receive them as a loving father does a prodigal son.

 

[JM]

There is verses throughout the Bible (I thought I had them written down, but now I canna find them) that say God's hates the sinner. Not just the sin, but the sinner that realizes what he is doing is wrong, and decietful and continues to do it. Because God is perfect and cannot even look on sin, then when you have sin in your life, He cannot look at you. That is why Jesus said, "My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me!" He said that because God had to turn His back on His Son, because His Son had taken our sins upon Him.

Psalm 7:11 God is angry with the wicked every day
Psalm 11:5 God hates the violent one
Genesis 6:5-7 God's determination to destroy the wicked
Genesis 19:13 God's destruction of the wicked is on account of their wickedness
Deuteronomy 31:17 God's anger is kindled against the evil doer because he is wicked
1 Samuel 3:14 Eli's house shall not be cleansed with sacrifice or offering forever
Psalm 81:11-12 God gives people up to walk in their own counsel - hardening
Isaiah 6:9 Hearing without understanding and seeing without perceiving
Isaiah 6:10 Judicial hardening of non-responsive
Isaiah 29:9-12 Lord has closed the eye of those he will punish
Jeremiah 6:30 Reprobate silver is rejected - so these are
rejected by God.
Jeremiah 7:16 Do not pray for the reprobate
Hosea 5:6 The iniquity of the people is such that God has withdrawn from them
Matthew 13:14-15 Isaiah's prophecy fulfilled in not understanding God's kingdom
Mark 3:29 Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is never
forgiven
John 10:26 They believed not because they were not of
Christ's sheep
John 17:12 The son of perdition was lost in order to fulfil Scripture
Romans 9:21-22 some vessels are fitted for destruction by the
potter
Romans 11:7 the rest were blinded (literally hardened)
2 Thessalonians 2:11 God will send strong delusion, causing the wicked to believe a lie,
so that they might be damned.
Jude 4 men ordained to condemnation
Isaiah 19:14 The Lord led Egypt astray
Exodus 9:16 Purpose of Pharaoh being raised up
Proverbs 16:4 God created the wicked for the day of evil
Luke 8:10 parables spoken so that some will not see and
thus be hardened
Psalm 28:5 God will destroy those who refuse to understand his word
The above list was compiled by Richard Bacon.

Quote: "...how is it that God can love men? He HATES the wicked. Yet He loves the Righteous. Well what about those saints before the cross of Christ? How was God able to demonstrate His love for them if they had not already been justified. The answer is He could not unless of course He already saw them as justified in Christ (righteous) from before the foundation of the world. God loves all of His people because He's always viewed them in Christ (timely speaking)."

This brings us to the topic of eternal justificationl, meaning that we are saved in eternity because God is not subject or affected by time. What do you think? This is a new a topic I'm reading about right now and not sure if I understand it correctly or not.

What do you think, is it possible?

John Nelson Darby put it this way: The truth is, Christ is said to love the church, never the world. That is a love of special relationship. God is never said to love the church, but the world. This is divine goodness, what is in the nature of God (not His purpose), and His glory is the real end of all. But I do not dwell on this, only pointing out the confusion of propitiation and substitution as necessarily making confusion in the gospel, enfeebling the address to the world, or weakening the security of the believer, and in every respect giving uncertainty to the announcement of the truth. I believe earnestness after souls, and preaching Christ with love to Him, will be blessed where there is little clearness, and is more important than great exactitude of statement. Still it is a comfort to the preacher to have it clear, even if not thinking about it at the moment; and, when building up afterwards, the solidness of the foundation is of the greatest moment."
http://www.stempublishing.com/authors/d ... 9009E.html

 

[Drew]

I think it can be helpful to "jump up one level" and address the question of how such questions are settled. It has become my opinion that these issues cannot really be setttled simply through the provision of a whole list of "supporting verses". I will try to illustrate why this is, by referring to the much-discussed 2 Kings 20 text. In that text, God (through the prophet) tells Hezekiah that "he will not recover" from his present illness. Hez prays to God and God indeed allows him to live. A "plain" reading of this text would seem to strike a fatal blow to the "God knows the future exhaustively" position (if we cannot imagine that God would "lie" to Hez).

There have been a number of explanations that attempt to reconcile this text with the doctrine of God's exhaustive foreknowledge. The better ones essentially admit that God's statement "you will not recover" cannot really be taken at face value - it needs to be "interpreted" or "qualified" by more global considerations. I think it is obvious that these kinds of explanations are the only ones that can succeed in saving "exhaustive foreknowledge" from this text. Fine - I actually have no problem in this kind of "the text does not mean what it seems to" kind of argument.

I believe that it is in this spirit that JM makes the following statement in another thread addressing this very issue (I have added some bolding):

The parallel passages of 2 Ch 32:24-26 and Isa 38:1-22 supplement what is not mentioned in 2 Kings 20. God is dealing with Hezekiah's pride and lack of trust in God. Hezekiah had greatly strayed from his original position in 2Ki 18:5

"He trusted in the LORD, the God of Israel; so that after him there was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor among those who were before him." (2Ki 18:5 NASB)

Hezekiah trusted in his own devices. God is bringing him to repentence and by a means contrary to Hezekiah's devices and sin... via dependence upon the grace of God. God removes the pride and forces the issue. God is in control. It was never God's intention for Hezekiah to die as in v1 but to use strong and efficacious rebuke to bring him to repentance.

So JM seems to be saying that God's statement "you will not recover" cannot be taken "as it reads". No problem.

My overall point is that this principle of being willing to modify the "plain reading" of certain texts in light of other (Biblical) texts and the "bigger picture" has to be applied to all texts. So the provision of a list of texts that each are some variant on "God hates the wicked" needs to be viewed as only provisional evidence that God indeed hates the wicked. One might be able to construct arguments that other considerations warrant not taking these texts at their "face value", just as JM has done in respect to 2 Kings 20..

Of course, such arguments need to be presented (and that is not the intent of this post).

 

[Guest]

God hates the wicked only in the aspect that they are possessed by sin.

 

[unred typo]

(Sorry for the bold type. I thought it would be easier to see what I added to the verses but it's bolder than I intended.) :o



Quote:“There have been a number of explanations that attempt to reconcile this text with the doctrine of God's exhaustive foreknowledge. The better ones essentially admit that God's statement "you will not recover" cannot really be taken at face value - it needs to be "interpreted" or "qualified" by more global considerations. I think it is obvious that these kinds of explanations are the only ones that can succeed in saving "exhaustive foreknowledge" from this text. Fine - I actually have no problem in this kind of "the text does not mean what it seems to" kind of argument.â€Â

Can anyone explain to me why we need to “save exhaustive foreknowledge" ? Maybe we need to dump it. Maybe foreknowledge isn’t as exhaustive as the striving to keep it intact.

Reading the supporting verses I didn’t find God arbitrarily hating anyone if they would repent unless they had gone beyond the grace period he allowed in his mercy and love. I think it would be helpful if ‘supporting verses’ were read within the context of their surrounding chapters for a complete understanding. In many cases, the verse was stretched to fit a doctrine or favorite belief, such as “exhaustive foreknowledge".
Psalm 7:11 God is angry with the wicked every day God hates the sinner because the sinner who refuses to repent forces him to execute justice instead of extending mercy. He would rather have the sinner repent before it‘s too late.
Psalm 11:5 God hates the violent one (see explanation above.)
Genesis 6:5-7 God's determination to destroy the wicked (see explanation above.)
Genesis 19:13 God's destruction of the wicked is on account of their wickedness (see explanation above.)
Deuteronomy 31:17 God's anger is kindled against the evil doer because he is wicked (see explanation above.)
1 Samuel 3:14 Eli's house shall not be cleansed with sacrifice or offering forever 13 For I told him that I would judge his family forever because of the sin he knew about; his sons made themselves contemptible, and he failed to restrain them.(It was too late for Eli and sons, their sin had gone too far, and their grace period had ended.)
Psalm 81:11-12 God gives people up to walk in their own counsel - hardening Read on: 13 "If my people would but listen to me, if Israel would follow my ways, 14 how quickly would I subdue their enemies and turn my hand against their foes!
Isaiah 6:9 Hearing without understanding and seeing without perceiving (see rest of chapter below)
Isaiah 6:10 Judicial hardening of non-responsive (Read on: 11 Then I said, "For how long, O Lord?" And he answered: "Until the cities lie ruined and without inhabitant, until the houses are left deserted and the fields ruined and ravaged,12 until the LORD has sent everyone far away
and the land is utterly forsaken.
Isaiah 29:9-12 Lord has closed the eye of those he will punish (Read the entire chapter, especially notice: verse13 The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is made up only of rules taught by men.14 Therefore once more I will astound these people with wonder upon wonder; the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish." 20 The ruthless will vanish, the mockers will disappear, and all who have an eye for evil will be cut down- 21 those who with a word make a man out to be guilty, who ensnare the defender in court and with false testimony deprive the innocent of justice.23 When they see among them their children, the work of my hands, they will keep my name holy; they will acknowledge the holiness of the Holy One of Jacob, and will stand in awe of the God of Israel. 24 Those who are wayward in spirit will gain understanding; those who complain will accept instruction." So the closing of the eyes is temporary until they repent or are punished)
Jeremiah 6:30 Reprobate silver is rejected - so these are rejected by God. 6:15 Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush. So they will fall among the fallen; they will be brought down when I punish them," says the LORD. 16 This is what the LORD says: "Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But you said, 'We will not walk in it.'
Jeremiah 7:16 Do not pray for the reprobate Because they are going to be punished now because as it says in verse 28 Therefore say to them, 'This is the nation that has not obeyed the LORD its God or responded to correction. Truth has perished; it has vanished from their lips. And in verse 31: They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fireâ€â€something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind. 32 So beware, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.
Hosea 5:6 The iniquity of the people is such that God has withdrawn from them 5:2 The rebels are deep in slaughter. I will discipline all of them. (but if they return to the Lord, he will heal them, as it says in verse 15 Then I will go back to my place until they admit their guilt.
And they will seek my face; in their misery they will earnestly seek me. )
Matthew 13:14-15 Isaiah's prophecy fulfilled in not understanding God's kingdom 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' (they are to be set aside because of their callous ways and the time of the Gentiles is to begin.)
Mark 3:29 Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is never forgiven God really hates that
John 10:26 They believed not because they were not of Christ's sheep I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. (if they later repent and believe and follow him, they will become his sheep)
John 17:12 The son of perdition was lost in order to fulfil Scripture 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. (If not Judas, it could have been one of any number of greedy men and if he had repented, he still might have been saved in the end after his betrayal of Jesus)
Romans 9:21-22 some vessels are fitted for destruction by the potter 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrathâ€â€prepared for destruction? (when were they fitted for destruction? As they killed the baby boys of the chosen people or as they mounted their chariots to hunt down the Israelites fleeing Egypt?)
Romans 11:7 the rest were blinded (literally hardened) 7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, (read on to verse 23)
23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 God will send strong delusion, causing the wicked to believe a lie,
so that they might be damned. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. (time is up)
Jude 4 men ordained to condemnation 4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you.
Isaiah 19:14 The Lord led Egypt astray Read on to verse 19; In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the LORD at its border. 20 It will be a sign and witness to the LORD Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the LORD because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them. 21 So the LORD will make himself known to the Egyptians, and in that day they will acknowledge the LORD. They will worship with sacrifices and grain offerings; they will make vows to the LORD and keep them. 22 The LORD will strike Egypt with a plague; he will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the LORD, and he will respond to their pleas and heal them. (Sounds like a plan to turn them to the Lord)
Exodus 9:16 Purpose of Pharaoh being raised up 16 But I have raised you up [a] for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.
Proverbs 16:4 God created the wicked for the day of evil 4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends even the wicked for a day of disaster. (God can use the evil for his purposes, to bring about good)
Luke 8:10 parables spoken so that some will not see and
thus be hardened (because his time was not yet come, and God did not want the crowds to try to make him king by force)
Psalm 28:5 God will destroy those who refuse to understand his word (The above list was compiled by Richard Bacon.) God hates the sinner because the sinner who refuses to repent forces him to execute justice instead of extending mercy. If the sinner turns to the Lord before it’s too late, he will abundantly pardon.

Quote: "...how is it that God can love men? He HATES the wicked. Yet He loves the Righteous. Well what about those saints before the cross of Christ? How was God able to demonstrate His love for them if they had not already been justified. The answer is He could not unless of course He already saw them as justified in Christ (righteous) from before the foundation of the world. God loves all of His people because He's always viewed them in Christ (timely speaking)."

This brings us to the topic of eternal justificationl, meaning that we are saved in eternity because God is not subject or affected by time. What do you think? This is a new a topic I'm reading about right now and not sure if I understand it correctly or not.

What do you think, is it possible?â€Â

God loved the righteous in the OT because they did what he required. They did justly, they loved mercy and they walked humbly with their God. They were vexed by the wicked deeds done by those around them. They offered sacrifices required to atone for their sins until the Savior would come and make the perfect payment.

I don’t think your "timeless God" is the answer to your perceived dilemma. IMHO, you have some presumptions that are based on verses taken out of context that are giving you a jaded view. As long as a person clings to certain errors, the truth will elude them.

 

[lovely]

Jesus tells us to love our enemies, and Scripture also tells us that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. At one time we were all His enemies, yet He provided a way for His own. Those He has chosen to give mercy, He has, and those He has not He will not.

I think that the hate that is spoken of concerning God, and His enemies, is directed towards the vessels of wrath that were created for destruction. These are the ones who will commit the unpardonable sin of unbelief, and will reject the witness (blasphemy) of the Holy Spirit. God's foreknowledge is completely in this, and the truth of it found in His Word is only strengthened by the fact that He knew what they would do, and created them anyway in that knowing. All deserving Hell, but some receiving Christ as their salvation, and receiving eternal life, by the initiation the Holy Spirit that brings about repentance in a heart of stone. Even if it were only one soul, I believe Christ would have left glory to die on the cross for that one lost sheep.

I am reminded of Zacheous, the tax collector. He was short, but he wanted to see the Christ. Christ, however, passed by that very sycamore three because He was seeking Zacheous. So, how did that happen? God ordained that Zacheous would be short, would climb, would be a tax collector, and that Christ would pass by that tree, and bring salvation to His house, and that the rich man would pass through the eye of the needle afterall...why? Because God can do what man can not do. This is what Christ stated to his disciples after being saddened by the rich young ruler who did not believe just a few chapters over. Who sought who, and who found who in the case of Zacheous? Christ knew who He was, and knew that He would be bringing salvation to his house.

So, we do not know who these vessels of wrath are, and God's hate, in His purity, is judicial, and holy, where ours is not. If we could read the hearts of men, as an all-knowing God can, then we would know who to hate, as God knows. However, we do not have access to the Lamb's book of Life, and do not know whose name is there. So, for our purposes, we are to love one another, even our enemies. They could be our brother, or sister, who has not yet received the Spirit of God. God will separate the tares from the wheat as a Holy, and Just Judge. In His mighty power, He has recorded their every sin, and will show them how they were His enemy here. Those who have been blessed with mercy will have the blood of Christ. and be clothed in righteousness through no power of their own. The Lord bless you

 

[unred typo]

That’s all very lovely, in a morbid, sadistic sort of way, but how do you reconcile these doctrines with a God that the Bible says is ‘love’? How could a just God save certain persons and condemn others, before they were born or ever sinned? How could a God who cannot lie say he is not a respecter of persons if he does that? Why would a God who could create a perfect world that never sinned or not even have free will to choose wrong, make one filled with hate, suffering, and death on purpose? How can a God who claims to love sinners, only save a few when he could save them all? How can a God who calls himself a God of love and mercy create beings that he knows will suffer torturous, unending pain forever just for his own maniacal pleasure, demented pride and ruthless glory? How can a God who has the power to force his entire creation to do his will, only force a tiny remnant to obey and then deceptively pretend to call those who can not respond as if they could? What a monstrous, loathsome creature this kind of God is. Such thinking is so convoluted and diametrically opposed to all that God has revealed about his nature, it makes me nauseous. I'm sorry, but I think the true God would agree that a god of such character does not deserve to be worshipped.

 

[mutzrein]

That’s all very lovely, in a morbid, sadistic sort of way, but how do you reconcile these doctrines with a God that the Bible says is ‘love’? How could a just God save certain persons and condemn others, before they were born or ever sinned? How could a God who cannot lie say he is not a respecter of persons if he does that? Why would a God who could create a perfect world that never sinned or not even have free will to choose wrong, make one filled with hate, suffering, and death on purpose? How can a God who claims to love sinners, only save a few when he could save them all? How can a God who calls himself a God of love and mercy create beings that he knows will suffer torturous, unending pain forever just for his own maniacal pleasure, demented pride and ruthless glory? How can a God who has the power to force his entire creation to do his will, only force a tiny remnant to obey and then deceptively pretend to call those who can not respond as if they could? What a monstrous, loathsome creature this kind of God is. Such thinking is so convoluted and diametrically opposed to all that God has revealed about his nature, it makes me nauseous. I'm sorry, but I think the true God would agree that a god of such character does not deserve to be worshipped.

Unfortunately, this is the God that Christendom has 'created.' Why? Because the premise is wrong. Christendom says the good go to heaven and the bad go to hell.

This is not the God that I worship. As I cannot force my children to obey me, nor does my God force people to obey him. He has children - children born of His spirit, who are given the gift of life. And as my children are responsible for the life I have given them, so are those who have been given the gift of life by God.

Those who have not been given life do not live in torment forever. They perish as scripture confirms. They are just fulfilling the birthright of man because he is born of flesh. But not so, the man of the spirit. He has been given the spirit of life, the promise of eternal life.

 

[JM]

I think it can be helpful to "jump up one level" and address the question of how such questions are settled. It has become my opinion that these issues cannot really be setttled simply through the provision of a whole list of "supporting verses". I will try to illustrate why this is, by referring to the much-discussed 2 Kings 20 text. In that text, God (through the prophet) tells Hezekiah that "he will not recover" from his present illness. Hez prays to God and God indeed allows him to live. A "plain" reading of this text would seem to strike a fatal blow to the "God knows the future exhaustively" position (if we cannot imagine that God would "lie" to Hez).

Drew doesn't accept lists of Scriptures because he doesn't believe Scripture should form his theology, instead, he lays and prays by ONE verse...this verse is all Drew will talk about even after I posted information about this verse that are more consistent with the rest of Scripture then his own.

This is not the God that I worship.

Then you worship a false God, breaking the second commandment, a God of your own invention.

It's sad.

As I cannot force my children to obey me, nor does my God force people to obey him.

Right, but once you have been set free from sin to love God, you are truly free.

The problem lies here: sin. Sin doesn't make us sick, we are dead in sin. The natural mind is hostile to God, the unregenerate heart is wicked and no one seeks God. I'd list another bunch of verse, but Drew would sweep them aside for his ONE verse and others would go back to their traditon of enthroning man [who really isn't as sinful as I'm saying] which only proves my point.

 

[Drew]

I think it can be helpful to "jump up one level" and address the question of how such questions are settled. It has become my opinion that these issues cannot really be setttled simply through the provision of a whole list of "supporting verses". I will try to illustrate why this is, by referring to the much-discussed 2 Kings 20 text. In that text, God (through the prophet) tells Hezekiah that "he will not recover" from his present illness. Hez prays to God and God indeed allows him to live. A "plain" reading of this text would seem to strike a fatal blow to the "God knows the future exhaustively" position (if we cannot imagine that God would "lie" to Hez).

Drew doesn't accept lists of Scriptures because he doesn't believe Scripture should form his theology, instead, he lays and prays by ONE verse...this verse is all Drew will talk about even after I posted information about this verse that are more consistent with the rest of Scripture then his own.

This supports my argument. You have basically stated that "extra information" should inform our interpretation of 2 Kings 20 (whose plain reading in isolation suggests open theism) and I am open to this. We all need to recognize that consistency demands equal latitude in interpreting the texts that you have posted - they may not mean what their "plain reading" suggests.

Is anyone disputing my argument about consistency? Please attack the content of the argument in detail.

By the way, there are other texts that support open theism besides 2 Kings 20. One example, the text in Genesis 22 where God says "now I know that you fear God" to Abraham.

You make the claim that I do not let Scripture form my theology. I (and other readers perhaps) would like to see the evidence for this claim of yours.

 

[Drew]

I think that the hate that is spoken of concerning God, and His enemies, is directed towards the vessels of wrath that were created for destruction. These are the ones who will commit the unpardonable sin of unbelief, and will reject the witness (blasphemy) of the Holy Spirit. God's foreknowledge is completely in this, and the truth of it found in His Word is only strengthened by the fact that He knew what they would do, and created them anyway in that knowing. All deserving Hell, but some receiving Christ as their salvation, and receiving eternal life, by the initiation the Holy Spirit that brings about repentance in a heart of stone.

I have added the bolding.

This is an interesting post and it seems to hang together subject to the following qualification: Some arbitrary person (let's call him "Fred") needs to be "free" to reject God in the very specific sense that he needs to have "opportunity to accept" and "freedom to accept" once he has been given the opportunity.

With that qualification in mind, we can see the following scenario:

1. God considerscreating "Fred"

2. God sees the future, contingent upon the creation of Fred, and knows Fred will freely reject Him.

3. God can "use" Fred's (free) rejection of God in order to achieve God's purposes.

4. God goes ahead and creates Fred.

The important point to save this from being "unjust" is that Fred is "free" to reject God (has the power of contrary choice - even though God knows what this choice will be) in the event that God creates him. Fine.

A cautionary note, however. In lovely's post she uses phrases like "sin of unbelief", "reject the witness", "deserving Hell". All these phrases get their "oomph" from the implication that free choice is involved. In other words these phrases "work" in support of lovely's argument, only because they carry this implication. Without such freedom, we have the situation where people are "forced" into destruction - and I submit this simply bounces off the human conscience as entirely incoherent.

The attraction of lovely's argument (as I understand it) is that it provides a sensible explanation of Paul's "vessels created for destruction" text - sensible in that it does not do violence to the deeply ingrained human intuition that people only deserve punishment for acts over which they have the power of contrary choice.

 

[mutzrein]

JM - Looks like you were responding to more than one person in your posts. Any chance you can ID the people who made the statements so there is clarity for all and also negates the need to re-read to see where it came from. Thanks

Can you please give me evidence that the God that I worship is a false god - as you attest.

 

[lovely]

Drew, you are partially correct. Man is freely able to sin.

Question: Why is man freely able to reject the witness of the Holy Spirit, be guilty of the sin of unbelief (unpardonable), and not able to accept salvation by his own choosing?

Answer: Man does not sin, and therefore have a sinful nature. Man has a sinful nature, and therefore sins. (Romans 5) Because we are born into sin, we are born into disbelief. This is why we need to receive faith.

Consider the Parable of the Wedding Feast. (Matthew 22) The King sent his servants to gather the invited guests. The invited guests reject the invitation. They go on with their business, some laugh at the King, and others abuse His servants. This angers the King, and He says that they are unworthy to come into the feast. Then, He sends His servants to bring in anyone they see on the highways, good or bad. These are brought in, and the King enters. The King then sees one who does not have on the wedding garments, and tells his servants to cast him out. Christ sums this up by saying that many are called, but few are chosen.

The first invitation is a general call to man by the Holy Spirit to reveal the Gospel. Man in his unworthy (sinful) state rejects the invitation. He is free to do so, and wants to. The second invitation is the effectual call of the Holy Spirit through the Spirit bearing witness of Christ to a chosen believer. This call, by supernatural intervention, is able to be received, and unable to be rejected. The wedding clothes, that are required for acceptance by the King, is the righteousness that a believer is clothed in through the blood of Christ.

Romans 3:11 tells us that none seek God, no not one. It is the Shepherd that seeks His lost sheep.

So, the sin of disbelief, and the deserving of Hell, and the rejection of the witness of the Holy Spirit's general call, are all bound up in our sinful nature, and we are powerless to act outside of that, but free to choose it, and we do. It is only after our nature is changed through the opening of our eyes by the effectual call of the Holy Spirit, that bears witness of Christ to the believer, that we able to accept, (an inabiltiy to reject) faith. Ultimately, under these circumstances, faith is simpy imputed by God as a gift of mercy to the lost ones that He has chosen through His Will. So the vessels of wrath, and the vessels of mercy, begin the same, both lost, both underserving, both rejecting God. But, ultimately in the life of the vessels of mercy, God will impute faith to them, and they will be given mercy and grace, and they will not parish. This is by His choosing, and for His glory, and certainly by no act of their own, even decision. We are all vessels to be utilized by God as He chooses. This should humble greatly. The Lord bless you.