Hyper-Futurist Challenge

[Prophecy Countdown]

parousia 70 on Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:27 pm
The only conditional part to Rev 2-3 is whether each Church would be punished or rewarded (according to their works, of course).
If they were obedient, they were rewarded. If disobedient, punished.
The idea that Christ was making his second coming to them conditional is nowhere in the text.
The second coming itself was not conditional, and it was fulfilled exactly when Jesus and the apostles believed it would be--in their generation.
The larger obstacle to your view however, is that Jesus never teaches that he would come as a thief multiple times. You need it to be otherwise, but the scriptures do not support your view. Quite simply, Christ's coming as a thief is the second coming, and Jesus applies that to the first-century Church of Sardis

I didn’t imply or make any of the above statements in my last post except on the subjects of salvation and damnation, which is conditional upon our response to our Savior. The result of which has two distinct possibilities found in Revelation and Daniel 12: 2. “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.â€Â
:yes

The Mount of Olives is still standing in one piece.

70AD has nothing to do with His second coming being the day of the Lord and His judgment and the wrath of God, why is it then that the Mount of Olives has not been cleaved in two, straddling a great valley, according to Zechariah 14: 1 – 7, who speaks of the day of the Lord and the Saints that are with Him?

As long as The Mount of Olives remains standing in one piece, without being cleaved in two and there being no ‘great valley’ for it to straddle then the conclusion I make is that there was no 70AD second coming or day of the Lord which is yet to be fulfilled.

Zechariah 14: 1.Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zechariah 14: 2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zechariah 14: 3. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zechariah 14: 4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 14: 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Zechariah 14: 6. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zechariah 14: 7. But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.


PC

 

[parousia70]

parousia 70 on Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:27 pm
The only conditional part to Rev 2-3 is whether each Church would be punished or rewarded (according to their works, of course).
If they were obedient, they were rewarded. If disobedient, punished.
The idea that Christ was making his second coming to them conditional is nowhere in the text.
The second coming itself was not conditional, and it was fulfilled exactly when Jesus and the apostles believed it would be--in their generation.
The larger obstacle to your view however, is that Jesus never teaches that he would come as a thief multiple times. You need it to be otherwise, but the scriptures do not support your view. Quite simply, Christ's coming as a thief is the second coming, and Jesus applies that to the first-century Church of Sardis

I didn’t imply or make any of the above statements in my last post except on the subjects of salvation and damnation, which is conditional upon our response to our Savior. The result of which has two distinct possibilities found in Revelation and Daniel 12: 2. “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.â€Â
:yes

Again, the theifs coming IS the 2nd coming and Jesus PLAINLY applies it to FIRST CENTURY PEOPLE.
You can't get around this fact.

The Mount of Olives is still standing in one piece.

70AD has nothing to do with His second coming being the day of the Lord and His judgment and the wrath of God, why is it then that the Mount of Olives has not been cleaved in two, straddling a great valley, according to Zechariah 14: 1 – 7, who speaks of the day of the Lord and the Saints that are with Him?

PC, Is Jesus your Living Waters today already or are you still waiting for them?

Perhaps you say He fulfills some sort of inferior "living Waters" right now, and we'll have to partake of the superior waters sometime in the future?

Which do you say?
Jesus said "one drink and you will never thirst again"

If Jesus IS our Living Water Today, already complete, please point to the OT prophesy that His being our Living Water fulfilled.

Thanks

 

[Prophecy Countdown]

parousia70
Again, the theifs coming IS the 2nd coming and Jesus PLAINLY applies it to FIRST CENTURY PEOPLE.
You can't get around this fact.

There is ‘no fact to get around.’ How on earth do you expect people to believe your last statement when Jesus said He did not know the time of His second coming?

Mark 13: 32. “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33“Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is.

God tells us that on ‘the day of the Lord,’ God will ‘cleave the Mount of Olives in two’ and that it will straddle the ‘great valley’ that the Lord God will open up with His feet.
Is there any physical evidence that we can see confirming that His Feet pushed the Mount of Olives in two and that the two parts straddle a great valley confirming the day of the Lord has taken place in the past? Yes or no Parusia70?

There are those that quote Josephus Flavius, I don’t however what does he say about 70AD, does he mention the Lord cleaving in two the Mount of Olives and using His feet to open up a great valley?

Zechariah is also about ‘the testimony of Jesus, which is the spirit of prophecy.’ See Rev 19: 10.
There is no way to get around the following biblical problem for preterists.

Zechariah 14: 1. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zechariah 14: 2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zechariah 14: 3. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

What is it that stops you parousia70, from believing this following part of His testimony?

Zechariah 14: 4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 14: 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Zechariah 14: 6. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

Zechariah 14: 7. But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

There was a strong challenge to Futurists on this thread and I have responded with Zechariah 14: 1 – 7 and I am still waiting for a biblical response on those verses.
If I don’t get one then I have my answer, however I will get back to the subject of 'our Living Water.' in another reply later.
PC

 

[Matthew24:34]

parousia70
Again, the theifs coming IS the 2nd coming and Jesus PLAINLY applies it to FIRST CENTURY PEOPLE.
You can't get around this fact.

There is ‘no fact to get around.’ How on earth do you expect people to believe your last statement when Jesus said He did not know the time of His second coming?

Mark 13: 32. “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33“Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is.

God tells us that on ‘the day of the Lord,’ God will ‘cleave the Mount of Olives in two’ and that it will straddle the ‘great valley’ that the Lord God will open up with His feet.
Is there any physical evidence that we can see confirming that His Feet pushed the Mount of Olives in two and that the two parts straddle a great valley confirming the day of the Lord has taken place in the past? Yes or no Parusia70?

There are those that quote Josephus Flavius, I don’t however what does he say about 70AD, does he mention the Lord cleaving in two the Mount of Olives and using His feet to open up a great valley?

Zechariah is also about ‘the testimony of Jesus, which is the spirit of prophecy.’ See Rev 19: 10.
There is no way to get around the following biblical problem for preterists.

Zechariah 14: 1. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zechariah 14: 2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zechariah 14: 3. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

What is it that stops you parousia70, from believing this following part of His testimony?

Zechariah 14: 4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 14: 5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Zechariah 14: 6. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

Zechariah 14: 7. But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

There was a strong challenge to Futurists on this thread and I have responded with Zechariah 14: 1 – 7 and I am still waiting for a biblical response on those verses.
If I don’t get one then I have my answer, however I will get back to the subject of 'our Living Water.' in another reply later.
PC

Greetings, PC. First of all, and once again, just because Jesus did not know the "day or the hour" does not in any way mean He did not know the time frame. How many times must preterists point this out. If I tell a friend that I am coming to visit him sometime next week but I do not know the day or the hour, does he not still know that I am coming NEXT WEEK? This is not rocket science! Jesus did not know the day or the hour but He knew the generation--"THIS [His] generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place." He clearly knew the time frame, PC! THAT very generation of A. D. 70!

You suppose that you have stumped preterists by your referral to Zechariah 14. The favorite question for futurists is always "When did that happen?" In spite of the time references and in spite of the context of passages, futurists will deny the fulfillment of something because they cannot see it! Jesus could have stated plainly, "I am coming back on June 30, A. D. 70" and futurists would still ask "When did that happen? I don't see it!"

These same blinders are put on when futurists consider Zechariah 14. They impose their presuppositions onto the text and then point at preterists and say "When did that happen?" Let's "see" how and when it all happened!

First of all, if we look at the opening verses and assume that the day of the Lord is some end of time, end of the earth happening that involves the entire planet being taken over by an Antichrist, we will have begun on the wrong foot! NONE of those fabrication are found in the text! We must not make the mistake of assuming that there is only ONE day of the Lord. There are many days of the Lord--they are simply the coming of God in judgment.

verses 1-2 The timing of Zechariah is post-exilic, therefore, the next major gathering of nations against Jerusalem occurred in the first century. Why do futurists skip past that? This is a reference to the overthrow of the city by the "nations" that made up the empire of Rome that existed in the days of Nero. This is an irrefutable fact. Jerusalem was destroyed in A. D. 70! The nations of Rome did come against her! The geographical confinement concerns those nations which would come against Jerusalem. There is no mention here of Russia or the United States of America! There is nothing here about these nations being led by some Antichrist!

When was the first time the city of Jerusalem was taken following the OT exile? Was it not during the Jewish wars with Rome? Why do futurists skip that horrendous historical time as though it was of no significance to God's timetable? There is nothing in the taking of the city, the rifling of the houses, and the ravishing of the women that requires a time still future to us! Nothing! What about A. D. 70? Was not the city taken? Were not the houses rifled? Were not the women ravished? Why do you look for another time frame? Because your system of eschatology demands it?

Following the destruction of Jerusalem in A. D. 70, many Jews (the physical descendants of Abraham circumcised in the flesh) went into captivity. The remnant, however, were also Jews, but they were spiritual descendants of Abraham by faith who were circumcised in their hearts). This is a key doctrine of the NT! How were they NOT cut off from the city. Jesus had warned them ahead of time (Matthew 24) that when THEY saw the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, THEY and all those saints of that time, were to flee! And they did! No Christian remained in the city when it was taken. Many escaped to Pella. Verse 5 sheds further light on this. God made a way for those spiritual Jews to flee through the "valley" He created for them! This was not the first time God had made a way of escape for His people. Did He not rescue them from starvation by providentially setting up Joseph in the land of Egypt? Did he not later rescue them from that very same land? Did He not make a way for them into the land of promise?

verses 3-5 The nations are not individually specified, but they are the same nations that came against Jerusalem--the nearest time that such a thing happened was in A. D. 70! The Lord's fight against the nations was NOT to rescue or spare the physical seed of Abraham but the "saints" (verse 5). If we do not make a distinction between the unbelieving physical seed of Abraham (those of the "synagogue of Satan"--Rev. 2:9; 3:9) and those made Jews through the same faith of Abraham and through the circumcision of the heart, we will never understand this passage! Notice also that the passage says nothing about Jesus descending from above onto the Mount of Olives. His feet are simply viewed as standing there. You want to be literal? When did Jesus actually stand on the Mount of Olives? Read the Sermon on the Mount! It is a ridiculous picture that is portrayed by dispensationalists--reminiscent of Oral Roberts absurd vision of a giant Jesus! Where is it stated here that some gigantic Jesus big enough for everyone to see is to descend upon the Mount of Olives? Where are the satellite tvs that are supposedly to make this possible? Jesus is simply seen as already standing there! How He got there is not conveyed!

The splitting of the mountain is used figuratively of God's making a way of escape for the saints during the siege of Jerusalem in A. D. 70. Had God not fought against those nations of that day by shortening the days, no flesh would have survived (Mat. 24). Jesus put an end to it all when He came. "Behold, I am coming SOON!" All students of the Bible must learn to recognize metaphors, figurative language, symbolism, apocalyptic language in order to properly divide the word of truth! Some things are "literally" figurative!

verses 6-7 These are difficult verses to be sure, however, if one looks to the nearest possible fulfillment of this entire section of scripture, he will notice a similarity between their being no light and the lights being diminished and the the darkening of the sun and the failure of the moon to give its light in Matthew 24:29. The timing of these events of Matthew 24 was clearly depicted by Jesus when He said "THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place" (to include verses 29-30!!). It was the day known by Jehovah--the day known only to the Father (Matthew 24:36). Again, Jesus did not know the day or the hour but He knew the generation--His generation!

verses 8-9 When did rivers of living water flow from Jerusalem? Are we still waiting for them? Did not Jesus tell the Samaritan woman that He gave the water of everlasting life? (John 4). If Zechariah 14 deals with some end of time, end of the world event, then we are still waiting for the "living waters" to flow from Jerusalem! If Zechariah 14 deals with some end time, end of the world event, Jesus is not even yet "King over all the earth." Jesus further told the Samaritan woman that a time was coming and even then was already when all true worshipers would worship the Father in spirit and truth! Jesus spoke of the time when physical Jerusalem would be forever over--when it was destroyed in A. D. 70. The time for worshiping on a particular mountain was over in A. D. 70. Jesus came and judged that nation; the Church came forth victorious; all true worshipers are now of spiritual Israel who worship the Father in spirit and truth!

Zechariah 14 correlates completely with Jesus' Sermon on the Mount (the things which were fulfilled in that first-century generation) and the Revelation (the events which were in John's day to shortly take place).

Futurists have certain pet passage that they believe stump preterists. Interestingly, they are usually from the OT and I suspect that most dispensationalists who use them have not even studied the context of the books in which they are found! They have simply been taught to use them against preterists! That is sad!

When will dispensationalists and other futurists honestly deal with the vast number of charges brought against THEIR system of eschatology? When will they address their OWN flaws--and there are many? They do not address the specific charges. They answer the preterist's questions with their questions. We bring up legitimate arguments concerning the numerous time statements found in the NT and they retaliate with Zechariah 14 and Ezekiel 38 as though that makes them all evaporate and go away. It is the preterist who most often honestly deals with the questions asked of them by futurists. I wish the reverse were true! PC, the "problem" you claim preterists cannot get around in Zechariah 14 is of your own making not ours!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

 

[Vic C.]

When will dispensationalists and other futurists honestly deal with the vast number of charges brought against THEIR system of eschatology?

I guess as soon as the preterist realizes He was resurrected in a physical as well as spiritual body:

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

and that His physical body ascended with His spiritual body and will return just the way they saw Him leave:

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Where a literal reading fits, use it and don't try to assert a physical reading in it's place. Is there something in John 20:27 that suggests Thomas did not come in contact with flesh? Is there something in Acts 1:11 which suggests they did not see a physical body ascend into heaven?

When will dispensationalists and other futurists honestly deal with the vast number of charges brought against THEIR system of eschatology?

As soon as the preterist even considers the thought that 70 AD was a spiritual coming with a real physical coming at a time when no one knows, not even the Son. Geesh, I even know some Christian Universalists who believe it is physical and in the future.

 

[Matthew24:34]

When will dispensationalists and other futurists honestly deal with the vast number of charges brought against THEIR system of eschatology?

I guess as soon as the preterist realizes He was resurrected in a physical as well as spiritual body:

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

and that His physical body ascended with His spiritual body and will return just the way they saw Him leave:

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Where a literal reading fits, use it and don't try to assert a physical reading in it's place. Is there something in John 20:27 that suggests Thomas did not come in contact with flesh? Is there something in Acts 1:11 which suggests they did not see a physical body ascend into heaven?

[quote:3lkanrbt]When will dispensationalists and other futurists honestly deal with the vast number of charges brought against THEIR system of eschatology?

As soon as the preterist even considers the thought that 70 AD was a spiritual coming with a real physical coming at a time when no one knows, not even the Son. Geesh, I even know some Christian Universalists who believe it is physical and in the future.[/quote:3lkanrbt]

I rest my case, Vic C. Again, what is posted is ignored and another topic is brought up. Who said Jesus didn't come physically? Did I? I know when He came and so did He--THAT generation. What do ALL the "this generation" passages I provided mean? When did Jesus say He didn't know the time frame? Never. He didn't know the day and the hour. Again, if I tell a friend I am coming to see him sometime next week, he does not know the day and the hour, but he knows the WEEK! What is so hard to understand here? Jesus didn't know the day or the hour. So what! He knew the generation!

IF Acts 1:7 is the key to how Jesus was to return--where were the trumpets when he departed? Where were ALL the eyes that should have seen Him. It is the emphasis of the CLOUDS, Vic C., that is the issue. He returned in the "clouds" --Matthew 24:34; Matthew 16:27, 28; Matthew 26:64--a clear symbol of judgment and presence. Where is the consistency between the simple cloud leaving, private ascension of Christ of Acts 1:7 and the trumpet-blowing, visible to all return of Christ? You can't have it both ways. If Christ was to return in the same manner He left, there should be no fanfare, no trumpet sounds, no visible to all appearing! After all, that's the manner in which He left isn't it?

Furthermore, when Thomas touched the risen Lord, He was not yet ascended. We do not know with what body He returned to His glory in heaven when He rose into the clouds in the presence of His disciples alone! And we must be careful how much similarity we create between Christ's body and our own. His never saw corruption or decay and was to never see corruption or decay. He had a body that could die but not a body that could decay. This disconnect must be acknowledged. We must also not assume that spiritual equates to unreal or intangible. Obviously Jesus' body had a form that could pass through walls. That same body that passed through walls was then able to be touched by Thomas. Flesh and blood do not inherit the kingdom of God. But that does not mean that we are changed from earthly to heavenly by becoming shapeless, intangible spirits! Why is it a denial of the resurrection to believe that these earthen vessels fitted for this life simply return to the earth from which they came. We are not those physical bodies!

We are raised incorruptible, heavenly BODIES. Just because those bodies are not those sewn of the earth does not make them unreal or intangible. There was one second coming of Christ in THAT generation, in the very same clouds, with the very same glory of the Father, with the very same angels as Jesus predicted. Scriptures teach no third coming. IF we insist on the erroneous nature of His coming, the resurrection, and the judgment that is popular today, we are forced to create another coming. IF we accept the clear words of Jesus and His inspired writers, we are allowed to let the Scriptures say what they say without twisting them (especially the all too clear time statements).

Jesus came in the clouds and His disciples saw it (Matthew 16:27).
Jesus came in the clouds in THAT generation (A. D. 70)--Matthew 24:34
Jesus came in the clouds and that very Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin saw Him (Matthew 26:64).

To be a partial preterist is to be a partial futurist. And to be a futurist of any kind requires dealing dishonestly with the time words!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

 

[Osgiliath]

Boy, when the cat's away, the mice will deposit their droppings.

 

[Matthew24:34]

Boy, when the cat's away, the mice will deposit their droppings.

Who made you the "Cat" and the rest of us mere "mice?" Especially since there are some here who consider me a "Rat!"

 

[Vic C.]

I rest my case, Vic C. Again, what is posted is ignored and another topic is brought up. Who said Jesus didn't come physically? Did I?

Just like Paidion said in another thread, there is no proof of a physical return. Despite any rationalizing, a physical return would have been an event worth recording. The Gospel would have bee preached to all the world and all eyes would have seen His physical return. Certainly, His first advent was noteworthy and stirred up a whole bunch of doubters.

Your view also deviates from most other preterists who have come here in the past and from most of what I've read and researched. Most claim the second advent was indeed spiritual. You claim it was a physical return.

Again, no proof.

What about covenant theology? Do you believe in replacement theology too? Are you part of the Kingdom Now movement? Is the Millennium spiritual also? I still haven't gotten a satisfactory answer as to what happens to believers post 70 AD. What is God's plan for them concerning the resurrection and transformation from corruptible to incorruptible?

Yes, all I have are questions. The challenge to make us focus on your "time words" also forces us to basically ignore surrounding passages and the doctrines derived from them. The Preterist reduces the Bible to not much more than a book of history, which also goes against basic Biblical Theology. God now revealed His Plan to a select group of people in history and only that group. How does God's plan of salvation fit into the preterist's theology?

It is becoming clear this is dangerous doctrine. :gah

 

[researcher]

AD 57 Paul wrote

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,

Rom 1:7 to all that are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

Wonder what God did to Satan back then? :o :o

 

[parousia70]

Do you believe in replacement theology too?

You mean continuation theology? Completion Theology? Fulfillment theology?

Jesus and his JEWISH followers, with gentiles Grafted in, are the CONTINUATION, COMPLETION and FULFILLMENT of ISRAEL.

Indeed, Not only IS Jesus Christ Israel, but--
Jesus Christ IS the law
Jesus Christ IS the prophets
Jesus Christ IS the circumcision
Jesus Christ IS the passover
Jesus Christ IS the priesthood
Jesus Christ IS the sacrifices
Jesus Christ IS the Sabbath
Jesus Christ IS the temple.
Jesus Christ IS the Presence of God

The list goes on and on.

Moreover,
Jesus Christ IS our Red Sea, through whom we symbolically pass in the waters of baptism.

Jesus Christ IS the land. And entering into him, we have rest.

Oh yeah--why is real estate such a problem?

It's because of our hankering to overlay upon Scripture a idolatrous, pagan philosophy of blood, race and soil.

 

[Matthew24:34]

I rest my case, Vic C. Again, what is posted is ignored and another topic is brought up. Who said Jesus didn't come physically? Did I?

Just like Paidion said in another thread, there is no proof of a physical return. Despite any rationalizing, a physical return would have been an event worth recording. The Gospel would have bee preached to all the world and all eyes would have seen His physical return. Certainly, His first advent was noteworthy and stirred up a whole bunch of doubters.

Your view also deviates from most other preterists who have come here in the past and from most of what I've read and researched. Most claim the second advent was indeed spiritual. You claim it was a physical return.

Again, no proof.

What about covenant theology? Do you believe in replacement theology too? Are you part of the Kingdom Now movement? Is the Millennium spiritual also? I still haven't gotten a satisfactory answer as to what happens to believers post 70 AD. What is God's plan for them concerning the resurrection and transformation from corruptible to incorruptible?

Yes, all I have are questions. The challenge to make us focus on your "time words" also forces us to basically ignore surrounding passages and the doctrines derived from them. The Preterist reduces the Bible to not much more than a book of history, which also goes against basic Biblical Theology. God now revealed His Plan to a select group of people in history and only that group. How does God's plan of salvation fit into the preterist's theology?

It is becoming clear this is dangerous doctrine. :gah

The Gospel was indeed preached to all the world. Furthermore, when Christ was resurrected, He appeared to many. Not every eye saw Him, but every eye that was supposed to see Him saw Him. The point is this with futurists--Jesus clearly said He was returning to that generation, but since the futurist cannot see it (strange since no futurist today was there!), He denies Jesus' very words. That is what is so dangerous, Vic C.

Where is the proof that Jesus rose from the dead? Do you know anyone who actually saw that? Where is the proof that Jonah was swallowed by a large fish? Do you believe it? Where is the proof that Moses, through the power of God, parted the Red Sea and all the Israelites crossed over? Jesus told His disciples that some of them would live to see His coming (Mat. 16). Jesus told that very flesh and blood Caiaphas that he and the Sanhedrin would see Him "sitting at the right hand of power and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." Did He lie to them?

Just because preterists view the resurrection and the judgment and His parousia differently than you do, does not make them wrong or dangerous. What is dangerous is the refusal to take Jesus at His word and to ignore and twist the time statements of the Scriptures so that truth is lost and people are deceived!

Paul said that there was ABOUT TO BE a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. Paul wrote that there was ABOUT TO BE a judgment (Mat. 16:26; Acts 17 and 24). Jesus came in that generation just as He promised and "every eye" that was supposed to see Him SAW HIM (including significantly the tribes of the land and those who pierced Him [Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin?????]! In spite of the clear statements found in the Bible, you disbelieve. You are the skeptic and your beliefs are what is dangerous! Be careful of what you accuse others lest you find yourself guilty!

Matthew24:34

 

[Prophecy Countdown]

PART ONE.
Parousia70
Why stop at verse 7?
Why not include verse 8?
Is it because you believe Verse 8 is already fulfilled in Christ and not something we are still waiting for?

You are confused between Jeremiah 2: 13 where Jesus says ‘Me the fountain of living waters,’ along with Jeremiah 17: 13 where the Lord says ‘the LORD, the fountain of living waters.’ and where the living waters will actually start to flow from Jerusalem on the day of the Lord and continue to do so in His presence.
The lord is not here with us just yet, that’s why the waters aren’t flowing, proving, with even more biblical evidence that 70AD was just an historic event and not the day of the Lord.

The following is yet to occur.
Rev 7: 13. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7: 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Rev 7: 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Rev 7: 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Jer 14: 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

Jer 14: 9. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Parousia70
In spite of the time references and in spite of the context of passages, futurists will deny the fulfillment of something because they cannot see it!

Quite the opposite in fact.
I see that the biblical truth necessitates that a prophecy must be fulfilled in every biblical detail before any claim of it being a biblical ‘fulfillment’ can be made.

There is no such thing as a partial fulfilment.
Preterists’ historic claims deny the obvious biblical explanations of these future events such as ‘the day of the Lord,’ which is supposed to bring victory over death and judgment to Earth.

As a result the 70AD idea is a nonsensical bit of folly and unsustainable under biblical scrutiny. In plain English it is apostasy rather than the truth.

Isaiah 30: 10. Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

Parousia70
Jesus could have stated plainly, "I am coming back on June 30, A. D. 70" and futurists would still ask "When did that happen? I don't see it!"

He did not say that, consequentially we use biblica

lly based reasons to question your wild assumptions parousia70.

It seems hard for you to comprehend but that is but one reason out of many that I accept the Lord’s own words on this and not yours’. Mark 13: 32. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Parousia70
These same blinders are put on when futurists consider Zechariah 14. They impose their presuppositions onto the text and then point at preterists and say "When did that happen?" Let's "see" how and when it all happened!

The Prophet Zechariah was a Servant of God and as such Jesus spoke through him and what the Lord said He would do to the Mount of Olives by cleaving it in two and create a valley for it to straddle is nothing unusual. However it did not occur in 70AD the Mount of Olives still stands as one mount and there is no great valley in existence and as a pathetic excuse you say it is all ‘figuratively speaking.’
There is no difficulty for the Creator, of this vastly expanding universe in dividing the Mount of Olives or creating a valley in any way shape or form that HE sees fit.

Parousia70
First of all, if we look at the opening verses and assume that the day of the Lord is some end of time, end of the earth happening that involves the entire planet being taken over by an Antichrist, we will have begun on the wrong foot!

I will get to the Antichrist later.
I’m afraid that Rev 10: 6 – 7 refutes your last remark.
As for the time factor, it is at the 7th trumpet that is sounded starts the day of the Lord and the third woe. See Rev 11: 15.

Rev 10: 6. And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7. But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Here is where we pinpoint the time of the end factor denied by preterists and there is a difference between the time of the end and end of time.

In Daniel 2: 1 - 49 we have a Metal Empire Time Statue.
The Head of Gold was king Nebuchadnezzar as told to him by the Prophet Daniel in verse 38 ‘Thou art this head of gold.

From the Babylonian empire, head of gold the Prophet Daniel saw the end of the Babylonian Empire when Belshazzar was killed and Cyrus turned up so atrted the Medo/Persian empire. Using hindsight we have the following list of past metal empires to the last one that takes over the whole Earth at ‘the feet of iron and Potter’s clay’ on what I call the ‘Metal Empire Time Statue’ of Daniel 2.

Metal Empire Time Statue.

Head of gold - Babylon Empire. BC 605 – 539.

Breast and arms of silver - Medo/Persian Empire. BC 539 – 331.

Thighs of brass – Greek Empire. BC 331 – 168.

Legs of iron, The Roman Empire. BC 168 – AD 476.

The Roman Empire lasted for 644 years according to the historic records.
70AD is 238 years into the Roman legs of iron Empire, around 37% through that Empires time span.

The Feet of Iron and Clay are well after 476AD and we are still counting to when the fourth beast power comes into existence which is explained clearly by the Prophet Daniel.

In Daniel 2: 39 – 45, in verse 43 it speaks of the feet of iron and clay and refers to a kingdom that will exist as the Lord sets up HIS Everlasting Kingdom.

So where do we find these kings around today forming before our very eyes?
God sets up His kingdom when the statement time no longer is stated and the seventh trumpet is sounded and we have Rev 10: 6 and 7 to prove that the end of time occurs for Satan’s realm.
At the time of the end which is a span of ‘2300 ereb boqer’ about six and a part years which I will detail later is the time in which Daniel 12: 12 fits.

Here is where we find the beast kingdom within Daniel 7: we have four beasts and the little horn hanging around on Earth when God, sets up His Everlasting Kingdom at the time of the feet of iron and clay.

This is a real problem for preterists, they can’t think that deeply to see that 70AD was at the legs of iron way back up the Metal Empire Time Statue and that the last kingdom is at the feet of iron and clay at ground level on that statue.

Preterists can’t seem to understand that God put the Metal Empire Time Statue there in Daniel 2: so that we could see false teaching from the true word of God.

We can see where the past historic empires started and then disappeared into historic oblivion but the fourth beast power is something that cannot be seen from past history but it is partially there forming which involves the identification of the beasts in Daniel 7: 3 – 7.

Daniel 2: 44. “And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.â€Â
That is to occur at the second coming, 7th trumpet where the stone is thrown against the Metal Empire Time Statue in Daniel 2: 42: 45.

Within Daniel 7: 3 – 7 we have a lion with eagle’s wings a bear, leopard and 4th beast most terrible with a mortal wound. I won’t reveal there identity yet because we will get side tracked.

I call Daniel 7 ‘The Overview’ for obvious reasons.
It is during this kingdom that the beast is killed in Daniel 7: verse 11 then the son of man receives his kingdom in verses 13 and 14 and the Saints take the kingdom of the fourth beast with the mortal wound, during the time of the four beasts in verse 17.

Daniel 7: 17. “These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth. God sets up His everlasting kingdom.â€Â

Verse 18. “But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.â€Â

Here is the angel Gabriel with his interpretation with more detail. I will not forget to ID the little horn as we go.

Daniel 7: 21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7: 23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
We have another repeat confirming Daniel 2: 44 that this is the lion, bear, leopard,
Fourth beast kingdom around when God sets up His kingdom at the feet of iron and clay on the Metal Empire Time Statue of Daniel 2. All this will end at the voice of the 7th trumpet. See 1 Corinthians 15: 49 – 57.

Daniel 7: 25. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

 

[Prophecy Countdown]

PART TWO.
It is the little horn in verse 21 that speaks great words against the Most High and loses his kingdom in verse 26 and of course the beast with the mortal wound dies. The little horn is Satan who is the prince of this Earth which we will get to.

27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Note the time highlighted in verse 25 time = 1, times = 2, dividing of time = ½ = 3 ½ years or 42 months.
This same time period is repeated in Rev and concerns the same beings and with another called the ‘false prophet’ named as such in Rev 19: 20 but unmentioned in Daniel.

Revelation 13: 1. And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Note the lion, bear, leopard and fourth beast are joined as one power this is the same power group in Daniel 7: 3 – 7 around when God sets up His everlasting kingdom according to Daniel 7: 22, 27. Two can be identified today.

Revelation 13: 2. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Revelation 13: 3. And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 13: 4. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Please note the same time span, it is not a coincidence.
Revelation 13: 5. And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty two months.

Revelation 13: 6. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Revelation 13: 7. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13: 8. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Now let me remind those reading this, of what parousia70 said.

Parousia70
First of all, if we look at the opening verses and assume that the day of the Lord is some end of time, end of the earth happening that involves the entire planet being taken over by an Antichrist, we will have begun on the wrong foot!
NONE of those fabrication are found in the text! We must not make the mistake of assuming that there is only ONE day of the Lord. There are many days of the Lord--they are simply the coming of God in judgment.

Parousia70 is out of touch when saying that on the day of the Lord is the end of the Earth, that event occurs 1000 years later when we read Rev 20: 21:
Also there IS only one actual ‘day of the Lord’ and we will get there soon it is a long day indeed.
Nowhere in scripture does it mention more than one day of the Lord. Changing the word of God to suit a preconceived idea is unwise. I have mentioned this to Parousia70 before to no avail. See Rev 22: 18 – 19.

It is within Revelation that the Gentiles trample on the city for, yes you guessed it 42 months, please note the time span and note that trumpet 7 is blown a short time afterwards bringing in the resurrection of life for all that are written in the book of life.
Rev 11. 1. And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11. 2. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Remember we are at the time of the four beasts of Daniel 7: they have been mentioned in Rev 13: around the time of the end which is 2300 ereb boqer and 42 months is the time of the Gentiles trampling on Jerusalem and the outer court in Daniel 11: 1.

Rev 11. 3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

1260 days is about 42 months then the two witnesses are killed in verse 7.
They lay dead in Jerusalem for 3½ days from the middle of the last week which has something to do with the last of the seventieth week but that is for another time and trumpet number 7 is blown in verse 15 and the two witnesses are raised.
Trumpet 7 kicks in 1 Corinthians 15: 49 – 57. Which is the resurrection to everlasting life and where we have victory of death and the grave

Note the TIME factor please. The Gentiles trample on Jerusalem 42 months and 1263 ½ days later trumpet seven is blown, verse 15. Ushering 1 Cor 15: 49 – 57. Now that IS the time of the end because we have no victory over the grave through death.
Jesus said He would bring His reward with Him.

Rev 22: 12. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
His rewar is everlasting life and we still wait.

perusia70.
verses 1-2 The timing of Zechariah is post-exilic, therefore, the next major gathering of nations against Jerusalem occurred in the first century. Why do futurists skip past that? This is a reference to the overthrow of the city by the "nations" that made up the empire of Rome that existed in the days of Nero.

I skip by anything that is apostasy. I don’t agree, the 70AD war was an historical event.’
We have just read where the Gentiles will trample on the city and outer court in Rev 11: 1 for 42 months and only 1263 ½ days later, trump 7 is sounded and the resurrection and victory over death is started matching 1 Cor 15: 49 – 57 and matching the time span of Revelation 13: 1 – 5 of the same 42 months when the world follows after the beast at the time of his kingdom where God sets up His everlasting kingdom, also mentioned in Daniel 7: which is nothing to do with ‘the days of Nero.’

God’s great army fights the Gentile nations that attack Jerusalem, on the day of the Lord.
God’s army did not attack the Roman army after they attacked Jerusalem in 70AD.

It is at the resurrection of life on the great day of the Lord that God’s great army is raised. Please Carefully read all Ezekiel 37: 1 – 28.
Ezekiel 37: 10. So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

If God’s great army is raised on the day of the Lord at trump 7 where Jesus brings our reward of everlasting life and victory over the grave and brings the living waters that are to flow from Jerusalem and where we are to be together with departed brethren to which all these things we fervently awaited, where does that place, using biblical parallels and patterns the day of the Lord if not in the future! I want to see my father in law my dead baby brother raised and 70AD did not produce the goods so give it up as apostasy.

perousia70
This is an irrefutable fact. Jerusalem was destroyed in A. D. 70! The nations of Rome did come against her!

Yes an historic fact but nothing more.
It was nothing to do with the day of the Lord, as you try to suggest without His great army to finish off the Romans for attacking Jerusalem as promised in Zechariah 14: 1, 2, 3.
Besides the Roman army was around at the time of the legs of iron not at the correct time prophesied being at the time of the feet of iron and clay.

Zechariah 14: 1. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zechariah 14: 2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zechariah 14: 3. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

perousia70
The geographical confinement concerns those nations which would come against Jerusalem. There is no mention here of Russia or the United States of America! There is nothing here about these nations being led by some Antichrist!

America, Great Britain, Russia are mentioned in the Bible and I will use the Bible to prove it verse by verse later in Daniel 7: and 8 and other places and I will do it by asking you question using Bible verses to which you will not be able to argue against and that is no idle claim so be patient it’s coming.

I will enjoy linking the Old and New Testaments. In Rev 11: 1 we are told. “But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty two months.â€Â

The ‘court’ is also called the ‘outer court’ ‘the porch’ and also the Place Of The Daily in Daniel 8: 11 – 14. So let’s go there and see.

I am going to ID the little horn being the main character but I must show you this first to do that with Revelation 11: 1dealing with the outer court and with more detail from Revelation 12: 1 – 6 to ID Satan as the little horn.

Daniel 8: 9. And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Why does the little horn head ‘toward the east, and toward the pleasant land? See Isaiah 14: 12 – 20 and note where he wants to sit.

Daniel 8: 10. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

When the Ancient Sea Scrolls were deciphered they found that the King James Bible version was quite accurate.
The KJV Translators wrote the word sacrifice in italics showing it to have been added to the following verses and others but I won’t go, no time.
So I will remove that added word.

The message is about ‘the court which is without’ also mentioned in Rev 11: 1. It is also called the daily or the place of the daily. That is to be given over to the Gentiles when they trample on the city for 42 months which is a much shorter time compared to the Roman Empire soldiers which is another problem for preterists to get around.

 

[Prophecy Countdown]

PART THREE.
We have just read in verses 9 and 10 about the little horn let’s see what he will do.

11. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him
the place of the daily was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

12And an host was given against the place of the daily by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long the vision concerning the place of the daily and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

That is a time span of six and a part years. I know I am weaving in and out about the little horn but you will see why I do soon please be patient with me.

Parousia70
When was the first time the city of Jerusalem was taken following the OT exile? Was it not during the Jewish wars with Rome? Why do futurists skip that horrendous historical time as though it was of no significance to God's timetable? There is nothing in the taking of the city, the rifling of the houses, and the ravishing of the women that requires a time still future to us! Nothing! What about A. D. 70? Was not the city taken? Were not the houses rifled? Were not the women ravished? Why do you look for another time frame? Because your system of eschatology demands it?

My eschatology makes no demands, I let the Bible tell me its eschatology’ which is at the time of the end when God sets up His kingdom.

Now back to the little horn that appears in Daniel 7: 8 during which time God sets up His kingdom in verse17.
Daniel 7: 17. These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

18. But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

21. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22. Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

This matches Rev 19 where we get the wedding supper in verse 1 – 9 and preparations where the Saints are dressed in white for battle where the beast is killed at the battle of Armageddon in verse 19.

Rev 19: 19 “And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Remember the following verse in Daniel 7: 11. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Note the beast is killed in Daniel 7: 11 and the other beasts are left for a brief time.
Daniel 7: 12. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

In Revelation, three verses up we see that the beast is killed and the remnant called the lion, bear, leopard are left, to wait for the sword in this next verse.

Rev 19: 21. And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Let me remind myself as to what the little horn, that is around at this time does in blue highlight.

Daniel 8: 9. And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Daniel 8: 10. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

Who is the little horn that has the power to cast the stars/angels out of Heaven?

Rev 12: 1. And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
We get that same time period again of 1260 days.

The little horn is Satan that did cast the angels out of Heaven at the time of the Christ that is why the Disciples saw the Antichrist and antichrists and people possessed of evil spirits at that same time.
Angels can be called stars see Rev 1: 20 “The seven stars are the angelsâ€Â

parousia70
Following the destruction of Jerusalem in A. D. 70, many Jews (the physical descendants of Abraham circumcised in the flesh) went into captivity. The remnant, however, were also Jews, but they were spiritual descendants of Abraham by faith who were circumcised in their hearts). This is a key doctrine of the NT! How were they NOT cut off from the city. Jesus had warned them ahead of time (Matthew 24) that when THEY saw the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, THEY and all those saints of that time, were to flee! And they did! No Christian remained in the city when it was taken. Many escaped to Pella. Verse 5 sheds further light on this. God made a way for those spiritual Jews to flee through the "valley" He created for them! This was not the first time God had made a way of escape for His people. Did He not rescue them from starvation by providentially setting up Joseph in the land of Egypt? Did he not later rescue them from that very same land? Did He not make a way for them into the land of promise?

The favorite speak from preterists when the Bible speaks plainlyto them and they don’t like what the Bible says and thus disproves their theories as false as does Zechariah 14: is to say that ‘it is figuratively speaking’ or it’s ‘allegorical’ or it’s ‘hypothetical.’
What next from them I wonder regarding this next verse from the Disciple Peter?

2 Peter 3: 10. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Parousia70 is confused with the Roman Army of 70AD and God’s great army that are immortal that fight at Armageddon on the day of the Lord. The great army of God is raised by God in Ezekiel 37: 9 – 28.
The same army that will fight after the resurrection and wedding supper in Rev 19: 1 – 21, at Armageddon.
Here it is again spoken of by the Prophet Joel.

Joel 2: 1. Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

A long day indeed.
2A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

3A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

4The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

7They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

The Romans were not immortal, to be able to suffer death after falling on their swords in 70AD!

8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

10The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

11And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Now don’t tell me that that was the Roman army of 70AD!

parousia70
verses 3-5 The nations are not individually specified, but they are the same nations that came against Jerusalem--the nearest time that such a thing happened was in A. D
70! The Lord's fight against the nations was NOT to rescue or spare the physical seed of Abraham but the "saints" (verse 5). If we do not make a distinction between the unbelieving physical seed of Abraham (those of the "synagogue of Satan"--Rev. 2:9; 3:9) and those made Jews through the same faith of Abraham and through the circumcision of the heart, we will never understand this passage! Notice also that the passage says nothing about Jesus descending from above onto the Mount of Olives. His feet are simply viewed as standing there. You want to be literal?

Yes I like literal stright from Zechariah 14:
Jesus is with the Saints In Zechariah 14 verse 5, “the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.â€Â

 

[Prophecy Countdown]

PART FOUR.

These are the sequence of events.

The abomination of desolation will be seen in Matt 24: 15. Then the great tribulation starts in verse 21.
The son of man appears in the clouds which no one saw or reported in 70AD or later for that matter Rev1: 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, Jesus does not touch the ground yet.

Immediately means instantly.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Jesus will firstly appear in the clouds immediately after the tribulation. It is His angels that gather the elect up. That is why Jesus does not touch the ground at that time on the day of the Lord. So there is no point to your argument.
31. “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.â€Â

He then takes His people to the wedding supper Rev19: 1 –9 and they receive the promised blessing, mentioned In Daniel 12: 12 after the tribulation period of 1335 days.
In Rev 19: 10 –21. The Lord readies Himself and His army for the war of Armageddon in Rev 19: 10 – 21. They are dressed in white.
Rev 3: is not restricted to the first century as parousia70 claims.

Rev 3: 5. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Paousia70.
When did Jesus actually stand on the Mount of Olives?

Not in 70AD, that’s for sure because it was not the day of the Lord. That is why Jesus did not attack the Roman army as promised on that specific day in Zechariah 14: 3.

He will stand on the Mount of Olives after the wedding supper, the King of Kings Lord of Lords will prepare His great army which are the Saints dressed in white and He will come back to Earth in Rev 19: 10 – 21 and put the remnant beasts to death by the sword.
Then we will see, close up what Zechariah explained in chapter 14 about how the Lord stands on the Mount of Olives etc.
When you claim the Roman army was ‘made up of many nations’ where did Jesus fight against them?
Zechariah 14: 3. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

parousia70
Read the Sermon on the Mount! It is a ridiculous picture that is portrayed by dispensationalists--reminiscent of Oral Roberts absurd vision of a giant Jesus! Where is it stated here that some gigantic Jesus big enough for everyone to see is to descend upon the Mount of Olives? Where are the satellite tvs that are supposedly to make this possible? Jesus is simply seen as already standing there! How He got there is not conveyed!

I don’t know about ‘a giant Jesus.’ That is as bad as the discussions about ‘how many angels can fit on a needle’s head’ they are pointless remarks and I don’t go there because there is no biblical point to it.
However that does not detract from what the Lord’s Prophet Zechariah said about how Jesus got there by going forth.
Zechariah 14: 1. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

No valley, no cleaved Mount of Olives means no day of the Lord in 70AD! ipso facto

Parousia70
The splitting of the mountain is used figuratively of God's making a way of escape for the saints during the siege of Jerusalem in A. D. 70.

I suppose you think this is allegorical too in Luke 3: 5. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; 6And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

How about this verse lets see if this one sounds figurative?
Zechariah 14: 12.. And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

If The Lord says ‘the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; how come the Roman army continued for another 406 years?
They did not get their eyes and flesh and tongues consumed away if as you claim ‘70AD was the day of the Lord?’
I know the answer, let’s see could it be because 70AD was not the day of the Lord.

parousia70
Had God not fought against those nations of that day by shortening the days, no flesh would have survived (Mat. 24). Jesus put an end to it all when He came.

If 70AD was supposedly ‘the day of the Lord’ as you try to claim then God’s great army would have been amongst them doing the following to the Roman army as the men in the Roman army see each others flesh being consumed and feeling it themselves. I wonder how that happened in 70AD?

Zechariah 14: 11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
Ah yes of course parousia70, because of your 70AD theory, you must be suggesting that Jerusalem is a safe place to live in?
Even though the Iranians want to nuke them off the face of this planet?

I don’t know about you folks but the day of the Lord was supposed to change the very dangerous situation in Jeruslam and because it hasn’t changed for the better I must reject outright that 70AD was nothing more than an historic event and not on the day of the Lord.

Zechariah 14: 12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

Parousia70
"Behold, I am coming SOON!" All students of the Bible must learn to recognize metaphors, figurative language, symbolism, apocalyptic language in order to properly divide the word of truth!

I hear this all the time from preterists, when the Bible puts their theories into the bin they claim the Bible is figuratively speaking which is there way of pulling down the authority of the scriptures and loving a whopping untruth called apostasy rather than God’s truth.
If I lived 2000 years ago and died in 50AD, how long would it seem to me if Jesus returned 1900 years later and raised me, would it seem a long time or a short time to a dead me?

This statement by Parousia70 is an oxymoron because the antonym of ‘literally’ is ‘figuratively’ which is ‘allegorically’ or ‘metaphorically.’ In other words it’s a fancy way of saying preterists don’t believe in the word of God.

Parousia70.
Some things are "literally" figurative!

Satan the Antichrist will return In Revelation 12: 7 – 17, when he gets thrown out of Heaven.
More about Daniel 7: 8: concerning the USA Great Britain and Russia and the 4th beast to follow on a new thread.
PC

 

[parousia70]

PART ONE.
Parousia70
Why stop at verse 7?
Why not include verse 8?
Is it because you believe Verse 8 is already fulfilled in Christ and not something we are still waiting for?

You are confused between Jeremiah 2: 13 where Jesus says ‘Me the fountain of living waters,’ along with Jeremiah 17: 13 where the Lord says ‘the LORD, the fountain of living waters.’ and where the living waters will actually start to flow from Jerusalem on the day of the Lord and continue to do so in His presence.

So you are saying the Rivers of Living water that spring out from the hearts of believers today are inferior to the rivers of living water that are coming in the future?

Nothing else you have attributed to me did I write, so I will not respond.
Better check your work.

 

[researcher]

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of Jehovah come.

Mat 17:11 And he answered and said, Elijah indeed cometh, and shall restore all things:
Mat 17:12 but I say into you, that Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but did unto him whatsoever they would. Even so shall the Son of man also suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then understood the disciples that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Mal 3:1 Behold, I send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:
and the Lord, whom ye seek, will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant, whom ye desire, behold, he cometh, saith Jehovah of hosts.
Mal 3:2 But who can abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fuller's soap:

Mat 11:10 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, Who shall prepare thy way before thee.

Guess the day of the Lord happened already. Elijah showed up 2000 years ago. :biglaugh ;)

 

[Prophecy Countdown]

Parousia70
So you are saying the Rivers of Living water that spring out from the hearts of believers today are inferior to the rivers of living water that are coming in the future?

No I did not say that, you just did.

Parousia70
Nothing else you have attributed to me did I write, so I will not respond.
Better check your work.

Just a thought to you dear parousia70, we can beg to differ.

Romans 15: 13. Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

14. And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

PC

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by researcher
Guess the day of the Lord happened already. Elijah showed up 2000 years ago.

You're not understanding this subject fully.

Malachi prophesied:

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Malachi 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

And in Matthew:

Matthew 3:11, "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

Here is Matthew's testimony regarding the identity of John the Baptist:

Matthew 3:1 "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
Matthew 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matthew 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight."

And here is some interesting dialogue between John the Baptist and representatives of the Pharisees that takes place in John 1:

John 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not . Art thou that prophet ? And he answered, No.
John 1:22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
John 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
John 1:24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees.
John 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?
John 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
John 1:27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

*Note: Notice how the Pharisees differentiated between Elijah of Malachi 4:5-6 and the Messenger of Malachi 3:1 as seen in verses 21 and 25 in John above. Nothing too significant, but worth noting.

When asked about the identity of John the Baptist, here's what Jesus said about him:

Matthew 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Matthew 11:14 "and if you are willing to accept it", he is Elijah who is to come.

Later, however, we see a shift in the presentation of the identity of John the Baptist:

Matthew 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Matthew 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things .
Matthew 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Matthew 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Jesus sums it up here:

Matthew 21:32 "For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him."

"If" the Jews had received Jesus as the Messiah, "then" John the Baptist would have fulfilled the role of the prophet of Malachi 3:1 and Malachi 4:5-6. However, since the Jews rejected Jesus as Messiah, then John the Baptist did not fulfill the stated role of Elijah. In other words, John the Baptist could have been Elijah, but wasn't because of the rejection of Jesus as Messiah. Also if you recall, Isaiah had prophesied that they would reject the Messiah in his first advent (Isaiah 53).

Matthew 11:14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come.

"John is the Elijah who is to come, IF you are will to accept the message". Of course, the message was not accepted, Jesus Christ was crucified, and the Kingdom was rejected, so John was not regarded as "the" Elijah who "is" to come before that great and dreadful day of the Lord. If they would have accepted Christ as Messiah, then the Kingdom would have been ushered in at that time (Matthew 22:1-8), and John the Baptist would have been regarded as Elijah (Matthew 11:14). In other words, Elijah must come before “the day of the Lordâ€Â, when Jesus comes as King of Kings (plural) and Lord of Lords, and the day of vengeance of our God (Isaiah 61:2, Revelation 19:16), not the “day†when Christ came as the Lamb of God, was rejected and crucified, and offered salvation and grace to humanity (Isaiah 61:1).

Using simple logic: Did the Jews accept the message? No, they did not. Question: “Was John Elijah if they were NOT willing to accept it?†Obviously the answer is NO! If the Jews DID NOT accept the message, thus resulting in John NOT being Elijah; and Elijah MUST COME before that great and terrible day of the Lord, which YOU CLAIM is 70 AD, how can this be? The Jews, who rejected the message, resulting in John not being Elijah, were the very targets of the 70 AD destruction, yet because they didn’t accept the message, John was not Elijah, thus Elijah did not come. However, before that great and terrible day of the Lord, he MUST!