Hypothetical Man on the Island.....

[Lewis]

613 to be exact.

 

[Georges]

Vic....are they saved by observing Torah as best they can, and confessing their sins as put forth in Psalms?

You can't use Psalms either. It is not part of the Torah. ;-)

In the OP Vic, I did qualify by saying they did have the Tanach....I did qualify they had the OT....So you tell me, does the Psalm verse qualify?....I think we are getting far enough down the path where people may be reading the last few posts and not the OP...

The answer to your question is not as easy as you'd like it to be. Man cannot achieve salvation by the outward doing of things. That was made clear in Genesis:

Vic...What does the Psalm verse say?.....acknowledge your sin and God will forgive...there is no other way around it...

Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
Gen 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

They tried to cover thier sin by covering themselves with fig leaves. This was unacceptable to God, so HE took matters into HIS own "Hands":

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

HE killed innocent animals so that HE could cover them with the skins. Only by the shedding of innocent blood was HE able to cover them. :wink:

A Christian misinterpretation of the verse...it has to do with the septuigent translation of the verse... :wink: If you like, we can go down that path on a separate thread...

Besides...
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

The people on your island still need to be judged to see if they will be allowed to eat from the Tree of Life.

True that.....Will they be found righteous for the intent on trying to keep God's commandment? Will David be judged? Solomon? Moses? Elijah? yes...just as the people on the Island will be.

Hey Vic......

 

[Imagican]

I copped a ‘donno’ answer… mainly because it would be impossible to judge what was in their hearts and if they obeyed or just promised to obey, never really submitting to the law written in their hearts, and now confirmed by the washed up book, no pun intended, George. :wink:

It seems to me that because Jesus died for the sin of the whole world, he will be the ultimate judge of who is saved or lost by the secrets of their hearts. He has paid the price sufficient to save every man so the decision of who will be saved rests with him, whom God the Father gave the right to forgive sins at his discretion. Matthew 9:6

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Here we go. A man with understanding. Good job typo. Not that you are the ONLY one here that has this understanding, but you offer it with humility and acceptance of what has been offered.

We WILL be judged by that which is IN OUR HEARTS. Those that learn of the love that the ENTIRE Bible is there to teach, ARE THE CHILDREN OF GOD. If they NEED to KNOW Christ in order to receive the 'gift', then at that point that they NEEDED it, IT WOULD BE OFFERED.

God is NOT a respecter of PERSONS. He desires that we LEARN to love. HIM, and our brothers and sisters. ANYONE that does not understand this and instead insists upon 'doctrine' is LACKING in this MOST needed understanding of ALL, IMHO.

Christ stated PLAINLY that ALL THE LAW and ALL THE PROPHETS HANG ON THIS UNDERSTANDING. If one DOESN'T understand it, then their 'opinions' mean LITTLE as far as God is concerned, IMHO. The understanding? LOVE. Love GOD with all your heart mind and soul, love your neighbor AS yourself. The COMMON denominator? LOVE. That simple folks. Deny it and you have NO clue, IMHO.

And a little AFTER thought; There is LITLLE or NO Spirit contained within the hearts of those that DO NOT OFFER THIS LOVE AS SPECIFIED, IMHO.

MEC

 

[Vic C.]

A Christian misinterpretation of the verse...it has to do with the septuigent translation of the verse... If you like, we can go down that path on a separate thread...

Since I am a Christian, one cannot not expect me to understand it any other way. Plus, I don't usually use translations based on the Septuagint. I mostly stick to English translations derived from the Byzantine Text (aka, the TR) I see no misinterpretation. Remember, if the information is coming from Jewish soueces, they probably aren't going to see Messiah in that passage, or in the Passover, or in Psalms 22, or...

True that.....Will they be found righteous for the intent on trying to keep God's commandment?

:smt102 God is God and I am not.

 

[Georges]

OK, even though Vic did an excellent job of taking the words right out of my keyboard, I’ll go ahead and restate it.

Georges wrote: Ok..as creator of the story....I will say they followed Torah as best they could...understanding that all God requires is a contreit and repentent heart for the forgiveness of sins....Based on Psa 32:5, a verse everyone should have memorized because it is the essence of forgiveness..
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.
Notice..."I will confess my transgressions"....which means "sins against the Torah". And, God forgives the sin upon confession...no sacrifice is even needed....

Based on your qualification then, I would say ‘yes, they are saved’ according to all I’ve read in scripture.

Rightly said as promoted in the OT....

I’m balking on “no sacrifice is even needed†though. Even in the OT, before the OT even, God planned to reverse the curse with the sacrifice of his Son, so all forgiveness was granted on the layaway plan with faith being accounted for righteousness.

But he kept it secret from everyone (patriarchs and prophets)? What God revealed was that there would be a Messiah, a man whom he would annoint as the leader of men during the Messianic Kingsom age, and His Son.....

As far as the sacrifices are concerned...re-read

Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

What did God despise?

Isa 1:11 To what purpose [is] the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
Isa 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear [them].

Sacrifices without repentence...



Red...I would suggest doing an in depth study on what was required as a sin/tresspass offering...I think you will find how little was needed in the way of a sacrifice offereing...(usually without blood).


Now if your man was washed up after Christ had died, their sins are covered because they are obeying the commands written on their hearts, and those commands are confirmed by the Torah.

The man (Ono Solo) was alive, the book washed ashore...2006...Without the knowledge of Christ he is saved because Christ died (without Ono Solo's knowledge) and he/Ono Solo kept Torah?

Ok...Is he saved because of his intent to live righteously (without the knowledge that Christ died for him)?

They are living up to the light they have and that is all God requires.

I can accept that...

God himself has paid the price required so they can be saved.

Why do you say that? I just posted 2 verses that state that repentence is the price....not my words...but God's.

A perfect life was required. If righteousness came by the law alone, what did Jesus die for?

That is a great question and one I am working out....Why did Jesus die? I think because it wasn't his time to rule the Messianic Millennial Kingdom yet...Consider this Red....Messiah (the Prince) will be performing sacrifices during the Messianic Kingdom period (Eze 40-46). If they've been abolished, how is it that he performs them himself in the future? I do believe he was in some way an appropriation for sin, but in regard to the excecution, it was a political self preserving move by the Sadducean High Priest group..

Georges wrote: There is no Jesus.....on this island. Based on Ps 32:5, if they keep Torah as best they can....are they saved to enter the Messianic Kingdom?

But that is my point. Whether they know there is a Jesus or not, there IS a Jesus who died for their sins.

Don't they have to know Jesus (ie. confess him) in order to be saved? You make a good point, but I think it is the individual's confession and intent that will be measured....And, my point is, with Ps 32:5, you have your sacrifice for sin in the repentance and confession you have...

He will determine if they will be born again by the Spirit. If they are living up to the light they have, following the commands written on their hearts and the leading of the Holy Spirit in their lives, God dwells in their hearts by faith in his word.

No problem with that...

The reason they would need to hear the gospel is for their own peace of mind, to confirm what the gospel says about Jesus being raised from the dead and they can have the joy of knowing that this has been done for him, and will be done for them. When they follow the laws written in their hearts, they are in reality, following the commands of Christ, they are, in reality, obeying the gospel, and they have in reality, accepted his word in their heart by accepting what the Holy Spirit has led them to do.

But with an Ideal Torah following society, that exact scenario should take place...

Georges wrote: There is no Paul on the island....no NT....you say Paul and Ono Solo goes "Wha"? All he knows is Adam, Moses, David, Isaiah and the rest of the boys…

The verse was a reference that tells why I believe they are saved if they followed the commands on their hearts, George. I know Paul wasn’t in your hypothetical Torah book washed up on the beach. By Torah, do you mean the ten commandments or the other hundred or so, with commands for the temple building, sacrifices, rites, feasts, holy days, cleansings and ordinances? Do you have a list? Just curious.

The problem with a post that keeps getting longer and longer..is things from the OP are forgotten....I did qualify and said that the Torah as it applied to them (Gentile Godfearers)....613 commandments...and not all of them applied to everyone...only those that applied to them as being God fearer's outside the Land (Israel).

Red....you are smart enough and have the resources at your fingertips to pull up the 613. Look and see how many apply to who...quite a few are repeats....

See ya.

 

[Georges]

A Christian misinterpretation of the verse...it has to do with the septuigent translation of the verse... If you like, we can go down that path on a separate thread...

Since I am a Christian, one cannot not expect me to understand it any other way. Plus, I don't usually use translations based on the Septuagint. I mostly stick to English translations derived from the Byzantine Text (aka, the TR) I see no misinterpretation.

I'll see if I can find the info and pm it to you...tomorrow...

Remember, if the information is coming from Jewish soueces, they probably aren't going to see Messiah in that passage, or in the Passover, or in Psalms 22, or...

Vic...if you haven't....do a search on the rabbinic interpretations of all of the Messianic passages, I think you'd be surprised on how many there are...


[quote:31b6e]True that.....Will they be found righteous for the intent on trying to keep God's commandment?

:smt102 God is God and I am not.[/quote:31b6e]

Pretty God topic huh....

 

[unred typo]

Georges wrote: Why do you say that ( “God himself has paid the price required so they can be saved†) ?
I just posted 2 verses that state that repentence is the price....not my words...but God's.

Repentance is what God requires of us. The price that is required to reverse the curse is a perfect innocent holy life in exchange for the sin. That is the sacrifice that we could not pay for the sin that no innocent animal or imperfect human born from Adam could atone for. Jesus was born of God, not Adam‘s descendants. (I believe only the male carries the why chromosome… ‘why did I listen to my wife?’ :wink: )



Georges wrote: That is a great question and one I am working out....Why did Jesus die? I think because it wasn't his time to rule the Messianic Millennial Kingdom yet...Consider this Red....Messiah (the Prince) will be performing sacrifices during the Messianic Kingdom period (Eze 40-46). If they've been abolished, how is it that he performs them himself in the future? I do believe he was in some way an appropriation for sin, but in regard to the excecution, it was a political self preserving move by the Sadducean High Priest group..

If they have not been abolished, where is the temple that we are commanded to do them in? God rent the curtain when Jesus died, and then 70 A.D. destroyed the temple. The future sacrifices will be a reminder of what was done for all mankind at the cross, just as the Passover looked forward to the cross.



Georges wrote: Don't they have to know Jesus (ie. confess him) in order to be saved? You make a good point, but I think it is the individual's confession and intent that will be measured....And, my point is, with Ps 32:5, you have your sacrifice for sin in the repentance and confession you have...

You can’t confess his name if you don’t know his name but that doesn’t change the fact that he knows you. If you have an anonymous donor who gives you a college fund, do you have to know his name to benefit? Do you have to go to college to benefit? The gift of life is in following Christ, which if you do, you will be saved, regardless if you know his name or not. The Holy Spirit is real and he enters into obedient, humble, loving hearts, not those who are proud, rebellious and hateful. He is not a respecter of persons, it doesn’t matter if you are a native in the jungle or a banker on Wall St. (In fact, he probably lives in more jungle hearts than in the concrete jungles). Now for those who know his name but resist the calling of the Spirit to obey and follow, those are not in Christ unless they do repent and confess him as Lord, meaning OBEY HIM.



Georges wrote: Red....you are smart enough and have the resources at your fingertips to pull up the 613. Look and see how many apply to who...quite a few are repeats....

What are you saying, George? How many of them do not fit under the command to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself†? If you follow the leading of the Spirit in your heart, how many of the 613 will you break?

 

[mutzrein]

No. Unless a man or woman is born again, they cannot see or enter the kingdom of God.

 

[unred typo]

Mutrein wrote: No. Unless a man or woman is born again, they cannot see or enter the kingdom of God.

But Mutz…. We don’t know when that happens… we only know why. It is God who causes a rebirth into the kingdom of God. The kingdom is within you until the King returns and reins over the entire earth. The Bible says that if we obey the King, we are servants of the king. One day after obeying him, maybe one, maybe hundreds later, he will say, “I no longer call you servants, but friends.†Only God can determine when we are ready to receive the new birth. Read what Jesus told Nicodemas. It is like the wind, we don’t know, we can only feel when it happens. What we can do, and must do is obey him; love one another, love God, love truth, be humble, be forgiving, love not the things of the world, etc.

Can't you see that?

 

[Georges]

Georges wrote: Why do you say that ( “God himself has paid the price required so they can be saved†) ?
I just posted 2 verses that state that repentence is the price....not my words...but God's.

Repentance is what God requires of us. The price that is required to reverse the curse is a perfect innocent holy life in exchange for the sin.

No it's not...and it's not taught in the OT....that is what the Islander's have...That is an invention of Pauline Christianity which the Islanders are unaware of...

That is the sacrifice that we could not pay for the sin that no innocent animal or imperfect human born from Adam could atone for.

The intent of the OT sacrifice was to show how serious the intent of repentance was...as God in the book says......

Isa 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear [them].

which means...he hates even the blood sacrifices...The Islanders know nothing of an atonement for Adams sin...they just know what apply's to them, then and there with what is written in the OT.

Jesus was born of God, not Adam‘s descendants. (I believe only the male carries the why chromosome… ‘why did I listen to my wife?’ :wink: )

Again...Jesus shouldn't enter this scenario as the only book that washed up on the island was the OT...

Georges wrote: That is a great question and one I am working out....Why did Jesus die? I think because it wasn't his time to rule the Messianic Millennial Kingdom yet...Consider this Red....Messiah (the Prince) will be performing sacrifices during the Messianic Kingdom period (Eze 40-46). If they've been abolished, how is it that he performs them himself in the future? I do believe he was in some way an appropriation for sin, but in regard to the excecution, it was a political self preserving move by the Sadducean High Priest group..

If they have not been abolished, where is the temple that we are commanded to do them in?

Common Red, it will be rebuilt...it's been razed and destroyed before...it's been rebuilt more than once...prophetically, it will be again...at least once more....anyway.


Anyway, the Temple is for sacrifices for those in the land...and the Islander's are not in the land....therefore Torah laws concerning sacrifice and temple practices do not apply to them...

God rent the curtain when Jesus died, and then 70 A.D. destroyed the temple. The future sacrifices will be a reminder of what was done for all mankind at the cross, just as the Passover looked forward to the cross.

Maybe...Would you agree that Ezekiel's prophecy concerns the future?


Georges wrote: Don't they have to know Jesus (ie. confess him) in order to be saved? You make a good point, but I think it is the individual's confession and intent that will be measured....And, my point is, with Ps 32:5, you have your sacrifice for sin in the repentance and confession you have...

You can’t confess his name if you don’t know his name but that doesn’t change the fact that he knows you.

Really.....What happens if someone lives by Torah law, but has never heard of Torah law, and never heard of Jesus....is that person saved because he accidentely obey's Torah (without realizing it) because Jesus knows him, even though he's never heard of Jesus?

If you have an anonymous donor who gives you a college fund, do you have to know his name to benefit? Do you have to go to college to benefit?

The gift of life is in following Christ, which if you do, you will be saved, regardless if you know his name or not.

Can't use that on the Island...nobody knows Christ but they do follow the Torah as best as they can.....Are they saved for a life in the Messianic Kingdom as God fearing Gentiles? I think the Islander's are saved by their act's...(ie...Torah observance)...just as Moses, David, Elisha.

The Holy Spirit is real and he enters into obedient, humble, loving hearts, not those who are proud, rebellious and hateful. He is not a respecter of persons, it doesn’t matter if you are a native in the jungle or a banker on Wall St. (In fact, he probably lives in more jungle hearts than in the concrete jungles). Now for those who know his name but resist the calling of the Spirit to obey and follow, those are not in Christ unless they do repent and confess him as Lord, meaning OBEY HIM.

Doesn't matter on the Island...only having the OT, the people on the island know the Holy Spirit as the power of God to enhance man's ablility above his means...ie (Samson was an ordinary man, except when the HS came upon him). So you can't use the above paragraph on the Island...it's foreign to the OT...

Georges wrote: Red....you are smart enough and have the resources at your fingertips to pull up the 613. Look and see how many apply to who...quite a few are repeats....

What are you saying, George? How many of them do not fit under the command to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself†?

Nope...you asked me what laws apply....I said look them up and it will be obvious which ones don't apply to the average joe...

If you follow the leading of the Spirit in your heart, how many of the 613 will you break?

Most it not all of them....but thank God we have a God that only requires an acknowledgement of the sin and sincere repentance....right?

Thanks...Red....but you can't bring Jesus onto the Island just yet...I'm getting around to that....

Main point so far.....Yes...it is possible for the islanders to have a part in the Messianic Millennial Kingdom as a result of their good works in Torah obedience...and sin repentance...

 

[Vic C.]

Goerge, where does Faith fit into your island senario?

 

[mutzrein]

Mutrein wrote: No. Unless a man or woman is born again, they cannot see or enter the kingdom of God.

But Mutz…. We don’t know when that happens… we only know why. It is God who causes a rebirth into the kingdom of God. The kingdom is within you until the King returns and reins over the entire earth. The Bible says that if we obey the King, we are servants of the king. One day after obeying him, maybe one, maybe hundreds later, he will say, “I no longer call you servants, but friends.†Only God can determine when we are ready to receive the new birth. Read what Jesus told Nicodemas. It is like the wind, we don’t know, we can only feel when it happens. What we can do, and must do is obey him; love one another, love God, love truth, be humble, be forgiving, love not the things of the world, etc.

Can't you see that?

Thanks unred typo. I appreciate your response. I will PM you.

 

[Georges]

Goerge, where does Faith fit into your island senario?

Where does faith fit in? Faith fits in their hoping that God will make good on his promise of blessing those who keep his commandments...My faith is that he will do that as well.

and also...to be a part of this...

Isa 26:19 Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

 

[Vic C.]

Do you believe that the Grace of God was at work in the OT and that the faith of people like Abraham, Noah, Mosses, David, etc. is what will save them?

 

[Mhz]

I never did go with the popular answers, I have never been Miss Popularity (or in my case now, Mrs). I don't think that people who have never heard Jesus Gospel are "going to hell". I have heard all the arguments, and I just don't agree. I also can't imagine tiny babies or mentally handicapped folks being eternally punished either. I don't expect many will agree with me, there are others who may even think I am a Universal Resurrectionist (which I am not). But I am not afraid to state my opinion on this.

Well said, but how are they saved if they know not, or confess not, Christ as Savior?

 

[Vic C.]

... Well said, but how are they saved if they know not, or confess not, Christ as Savior?

That is exactly what we trying to hash out.

 

[unred typo]

Mhz wrote:... Well said, but how are they saved if they know not, or confess not, Christ as Savior?

The exact same way that Abraham, Isaac and David and the rest of the OT saints were saved. The same way you are saved as a matter of fact. They followed God and believed what he said and their faith was counted as righteousness. Saving us is God’s business. He knows what must be done to make us fit for heaven. He knows how long Christ had to suffer, how much blood he had to shed, how long he had to spend in hell, how to change his body from human death to spiritually born again. He did it! It worked! And no surprise since he does all things well!

If we follow his instructions, our faith will please him and he will bless us and change us into the kind of beings that will survive eternity. It’s not a formula of ‘say this, believe this, do this, act this way and God must do this for you.’ It’s being willing to accept others, forgive others and love others as God has loved and forgiven us. It’s living in accord with what Jesus taught us. It’s submitting to his will in our lives and doing the things that please him out of love and faith. God is love. Love covers a multitude of sin.

Why do we have to tell the world? Because it is our privilege to spread the word that Jesus has died and rose again and proved without a doubt that the human sin condition is no longer a death sentence, we are free from sin, we can overcome Satan, we can be conformed into the image of God by resisting the devil and following Christ.

Those who follow the word of God in their hearts, do so without this knowledge. They are in the dark about the great ‘good news’ that God has reversed the curse. They find out by trial and error that when they obey the word in their hearts, they have joy and when they act in the flesh, they have guilt. If we tell them that “if they confess their sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness,†they will know how to live in the joy of the Lord every day and experience knowing God who wrote the laws in their hearts. They will know the name of the one who created all good things that they have felt working in their lives to lead them to be good. They will know they have been set free from death and the power of evil to rule over them. This is real. This is true. This is what happened. It’s not just a story we read in a book we revere.

 

[Georges]

Do you believe that the Grace of God was at work in the OT and that the faith of people like Abraham, Noah, Mosses, David, etc. is what will save them?

Faith and Works my friend....Every one of them had Faith and performed Works...

 

[ChristineES]

I never did go with the popular answers, I have never been Miss Popularity (or in my case now, Mrs). I don't think that people who have never heard Jesus Gospel are "going to hell". I have heard all the arguments, and I just don't agree. I also can't imagine tiny babies or mentally handicapped folks being eternally punished either. I don't expect many will agree with me, there are others who may even think I am a Universal Resurrectionist (which I am not). But I am not afraid to state my opinion on this.

Well said, but how are they saved if they know not, or confess not, Christ as Savior?

That is easy. Because they are worshipping GOD! Not a false God, but the real God! Do you think that God does not know they never heard of His Son? It is not the man you are not giving credit to, but God. Give God some credit. God knows all things. He knows who is truly worshipping God in his heart and who is not. Babies and people who are mentally handicapped, the same thing. They may not know God from the Bible, but who is to say they do not know God in their hearts? God knows; He knows everything.

 

[Georges]

Mhz wrote:... Well said, but how are they saved if they know not, or confess not, Christ as Savior?

The exact same way that Abraham, Isaac and David and the rest of the OT saints were saved. The same way you are saved as a matter of fact. They followed God and believed what he said and their faith was counted as righteousness.

Unred....that isn't exactly how it works (almost)...or is worded. You have the pdf I sent you...it explains (by the wording in Hebrew) that Abraham was saved by "continuing in faith" not because of a one time "I believe" declaration.....

Saving us is God’s business. He knows what must be done to make us fit for heaven. He knows how long Christ had to suffer, how much blood he had to shed, how long he had to spend in hell, how to change his body from human death to spiritually born again. He did it! It worked! And no surprise since he does all things well!

If we follow his instructions, our faith will please him and he will bless us and change us into the kind of beings that will survive eternity. It’s not a formula of ‘say this, believe this, do this, act this way and God must do this for you.’ It’s being willing to accept others, forgive others and love others as God has loved and forgiven us. It’s living in accord with what Jesus taught us. It’s submitting to his will in our lives and doing the things that please him out of love and faith. God is love. Love covers a multitude of sin.

Why do we have to tell the world? Because it is our privilege to spread the word that Jesus has died and rose again and proved without a doubt that the human sin condition is no longer a death sentence, we are free from sin, we can overcome Satan, we can be conformed into the image of God by resisting the devil and following Christ.

Gotta be careful Red.....because believers are free "from sin", shouldn't be construed as being free "to sin"....that's why it is still important to have the rules...as a guide.

This is getting away from the OP....there is no Christ on the Island....Is Ono Solo saved because of his faith and his Torah works...(ie observation).

Those who follow the word of God in their hearts, do so without this knowledge. They are in the dark about the great ‘good news’ that God has reversed the curse. They find out by trial and error that when they obey the word in their hearts, they have joy and when they act in the flesh, they have guilt. If we tell them that “if they confess their sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness,†they will know how to live in the joy of the Lord every day and experience knowing God who wrote the laws in their hearts. They will know the name of the one who created all good things that they have felt working in their lives to lead them to be good. They will know they have been set free from death and the power of evil to rule over them. This is real. This is true. This is what happened. It’s not just a story we read in a book we revere.

It's kind of getting away from the OP.....