Hypothetical Man on the Island.....

[Georges]

Mhz wrote: Let me ask a another question of anyone here: if Christ’s blood was sufficient for the cleansing of the sins of the world how can my faith or the lack thereof void it? Was his sacrifice arbitrary? Or conditional? Does the penalty for my sin remain unpaid if I have no faith to believe otherwise?

I believe forgiveness is freely offered to all people and sufficient for all. ( 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. ) It is applied upon condition of our repentance and patient continuance in well doing. ( Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, [ he grants ] eternal life)

God knows the weakness of our flesh and he is there to help us and prompt us to do right, convict us of wrongs and remind us of past resolutions to change. We have no excuse to sin though, since he says he will not allow us to be tempted above that which we are able to resist. Resisting is our job. Repenting is our job. The removing of sin when we confess and repent is the job of the Holy Spirit. That is his free gift to us. The perfect sacrifice we could not pay.

We must believe what he taught and actually believe it enough to follow it. This is what faith is. 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe.
The Bible stresses that the important thing is that we are found in Christ and his spirit remains in us. Without the Spirit in us, we are lost. The penalty for all sin has been paid for the whole world but those who do not remain ‘in Christ’ do not avail themselves of it.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

We remain ‘in Christ’ when we live and walk in his teachings and his word remains in us. 1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him.
My lack of faith does not void the power of the blood to remove my sin, it just isn’t applied to my sin, until and unless I repent, walking in love and forgiveness of others. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Back to George’s island people, they are saved by being in Christ, they are in Christ by keeping his commands, because they have faith in the word of God, believing the law written on their hearts, which is confirmed by the Holy Spirit who indwells those who live according to the love of God. Simple huh? 8-) :-? Simply put, the Spirit places them ‘in Christ’ because they follow his word. The Torah is a shadow of the word. The word is written on their hearts. The Spirit uses this word to ‘provoke them to love and good works.’ The word is LOVE. (down drops the Groucho Marx chicken) :-D That is really the only word you need, out of all this mess I wrote. And I didn't even need to write that either since:

1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love you need not that I write unto you: for you yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

That's for another thread....not on the island....please....one response will lead to another and the purpose for the OP will be gone...

Thanks...

 

[Georges]

Georges, I do not mean to be dense, but why can't the Holy Spirit indwell people on an island in 2006?

I know you are not dense...If I indicated the above I mispoke, or was misunderstood...of course God's Holy Spirit can rest on and indwell in the islanders...God's Holy Spirit never changes...

We do not need to read Paul for that to happen.

True that....

Christ has already died, and man can certainly be born of the Spirit. Maybe I am misunderstanding you, perhaps?

The Islanders simply represent Judaism without a knowledge of Jesus as an Atonement sacrifice as it historically did. Are the Islander's justified because they are trying to obey God's will in observing his commandments toward righteousness? I think so...I think when they make a conscious decision to obey God, the Spirit indwells in them...IMHO.

If they only have the Old Testament, but they have the benefit of the Spirit of God, then I'd say they were better of than those who didn't have the Spirit to teach them...

Agreed...

and that is John, not Paul, but either way they do not have to read about the Spirit of God indwelling them for it to actually dwell in them.


I will tenatively agree...I guess God could zap someone with the Spirit without them asking...however, that would be forced coursion (sp?).

They do not have to know that the Saviour has come to die for them to believe in the hope of a Saviour that will come and die for them.

Tenatively yes....except they weren't counting on a Savior dying for them. They were/are counting on being raised from the dead to enter the Messiah's kingdom...based on their obedience to God. On the island anyway...they don't really know Israel's national history...just what is given in the OT...

I do not see why we have to say it is a works based salvation when they can not possibly keep the whole law.

They don't have to keep it 100% 100% of the time...God knows that and made allowence for that...that is why I continually present the verses that explain that all God wants when someone sins is a repentent and contriet heart....God knows that....Nowhere in the OT does it say you must keep the law 100% 100% of the time...

There has never been a salvation by works. They are in need of the grace given through the blood of the Lamb to be saved and their obedience is the outworking of that.

Not according to the verses on repentance I had presented....

Abraham also believed God, and this is why God imputed righteousness to Him, not because He kept the whole law...because he didn't.

There was no formal Torah (although it did exsist from the beginning), but Abraham did have to abide by the Noahide laws (Torah lite). Here is the thing about Abe....he didn't keep the whole law 100% of the time, what was counted for righteousness...was that he "continually" tried to keep the Law and continually obeyed God...it wasn't a one time affair....

Abraham had faith, and he needed to sacrifice animals his whole life while he waited for the hope of Christ, and the generations after him did the same while they waited....but God saved them through the blood of the LAMB. One event saved man.

So everyone before the crucifixion weren't saved? Although I can't use it (not on the island), the parable of Lazarus and the rich man...would argue your point...

In 2006, that blood has been shed already, and the Spirit has been given, and those on the island, even with only part of the Word, are saved just like every other human being through the blood of Jesus Christ. The difference between them, and Abraham, is that they do not need to sacrifice animals, even though they may think they need to. The Lord bless you all.

But Lovey....being that they have the OT, they know that sacrifices will be performed by the Messiah (Prince of Eze 40-46) during the Messianic Kingdom...so I would have to say that they are saved by their righteous intent at keeping God's word...

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[lovely]

Hi unred,

unred wrote:

I’m curious. Where do the works of faith that James talked about come into your scenario? If the islanders do sacrifice yet continue to live in unbridled sin, are they saved by their faith in the sacrifice? You went as far as to say that the blood was needed to perfect the faith of Abraham, thus eliminating the ability of Abraham to boast that he was saved by his works, but where does all the commands of God come into this? Abraham believed God enough to obey him, enough to take his beloved son up Mt. Moriah. The Bible called him, ‘righteous Abraham.’ He had faith shown by his works.

Hmmm, I think you misunderstood my post. I was not saying that the islanders needed to sacrifice, or that they could live in unbridled sin at all...could your read it again, unred? I know you get fired up sometimes with me, but please hear me out in this case.

unred wrote:

Jesus had very little to say about his own sacrifice for sin to his followers but he constantly talked about obedience to God. Where does obedience fit into your theology?

Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15

unred wrote:

Is it optional or is it a gift to God from man?

It is not optional if you love God. 1 John 5:3-5 "3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

unred wrote:

That would seem a little presumptuous at best. I never could fit the commands of Christ into a grace-based workless theology, but perhaps I missed something.

Perhaps I missed something? I don't recall saying any of that ever on this board, not just this thread. Maybe you are reading something into me that isn't there, or perhaps the theology that you think I have. Could your read my post without the idea that I believe in some...grace-based workless theology? I don't.


unred wrote:

What did Jesus mean when he said if we did not forgive, we would not be forgiven?

I believe He meant that the Spirit of God, and His love, are not in us if we can not extend to others forgiveness for little, when we have been forgiven much.

unred wrote:

If the Spirit leads the islanders, what does he lead them to do?

lovely wrote: They are in need of the grace given through the blood of the Lamb to be saved and their obedience is the outworking of that.
I believe that the Spirit leads all of us to obey God, and spread the Gospel.

unred wrote:

The sacrifices were not supposed to be used in place of living according to God’s commands.

I never said that they were. I agree with James entirely. A body that is no longer dead, but raised in the Spirit is able to obey God because of His love, and because of their's for Him. James tells us that the evidence of his faith is his works, and that he doesn't believe those who claim to have faith, but do not yield works have a true faith. James 2:18-26
"18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

unred wrote:

The sacrifices (representing Christ’s death ) were meant to restore them into a right relationship with God. Instead, the Israelites were using the sacrifices as a license to do whatever they wanted and then pay for it with the blood of an animal. They were sinning on the installment plan. Seems vaguely like some people live today.

Well, I don't know if I am some people, or not, to you. I don't want to take that statement personally if you didn't intend it to be. I can not boast a sinless life that's for sure, but I am grateful for the Spirit in me, and I do desire to obey God because I love Him, and want to please Him above anyone. I believe that the Spirit is sanctifying me. I do desire to share the Gospel with those around me as Christ has commanded. When I fail in any area, it grieves me, but I know that He is faithful to forgive, and that His grace is sufficient because His mercy is ultimately why I am saved. I did nothing to deserve it. I have confidance in Him, and His promise, and I obey Him because I love Him...this is the outworking of His love in me to be sure.

I don't really know what else to say. If you could read my post again, then maybe it will be more clear now, I don't know. The Lord bless you.

 

[lovely]

Okay George,

Your last post cleared up a lot for me in this discussion concerning your position. And no, you did not imply that I was dense...I was just not clearly understanding you, and I think we agree on some things, but it is hard to get you to state it plainly sometimes. :wink:

And...for the record, I think that those prior to Christ's death were saved, yes, but I do not believe it was by their works, but rather the faith behind them. I believe their efforts to obey the commands of God poured out from their belief in what God said. The hope of a Messiah. I agree that Abraham's continual efforts to strive in obedience are evidence that he had an on-going belief (reverent fear, even) in God, and did not desire to break His covenant with Him, but to remain holy and set apart. As far as the Spirit of God indwelling us...Simply put, it does not have to be clearly understood to be possesed, imo.



The main subject on this post, though, we do disagree on.
George wrote:

lovely wrote:
[quote:f772f]There has never been a salvation by works. They are in need of the grace given through the blood of the Lamb to be saved and their obedience is the outworking of that.

Not according to the verses on repentance I had presented.... [/quote:f772f]

Genesis 15:6 "6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. " James extends this further and tells us that this is demonstrated by Abraham's works (James 23-26)...they can not be separated. We are justifed by grace, but works proceed out of that, because one does not exist without the other...both being gifts of God, and in that sense we are justifed by both. James 1:17-18


The Lord bless you, George, and thank you for the discussion too.

 

[lovely]

Okay George,

Your last post cleared up a lot for me in this discussion concerning your position. And no, you did not imply that I was dense...I was just not clearly understanding you, and I think we agree on some things, but it is hard to get you to state it plainly sometimes. :wink:

And...for the record, I think that those prior to Christ's death were saved, yes, but I do not believe it was by their works, but rather the faith behind them. I believe their efforts to obey the commands of God poured out from their belief in what God said. The hope of a Messiah. I agree that Abraham's continual efforts to strive in obedience are evidence that he had an on-going belief (reverent fear, even) in God, and did not desire to break His covenant with Him, but to remain holy and set apart. As far as the Spirit of God indwelling us...Simply put, it does not have to be clearly understood to be possesed, imo.



The main subject of this post, though, we do disagree on.
George wrote:

lovely wrote:
[quote:7c081]There has never been a salvation by works. They are in need of the grace given through the blood of the Lamb to be saved and their obedience is the outworking of that.

Not according to the verses on repentance I had presented....

Genesis 15:6 "6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. " James extends this further and tells us that this is demonstrated by Abraham's works (James 23-26)...they can not be separated. We are justifed by grace, but works proceed out of that, because one does not exist without the other...both being gifts of God, and in that sense we are justifed by both. James 1:17-18


The Lord bless you, George, and thank you for the discussion too.[/quote:7c081]

 

[Georges]

Here is why the people on the Island are saved......Everyone should have this chapter highlighted....for those of you who are staunch "Paul only" go buy a copy of the OT to replace the one you threw away.... : : : cause this is very important....


The essence of Salvation......

Eze 18:14 ¶ Now, lo, [if] he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like,
Eze 18:15 [That] hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife,
Eze 18:16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, [but] hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment,
Eze 18:17 [That] hath taken off his hand from the poor, [that] hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.

Rules....to live by.....God is essentially saying, if the son does not follow in his father's footsteps, but obey's Torah (as given in verses 15 -17).....then he will live...What does that mean? He will be resurrected to live in the Messianic Kingdom....Notice, Jesus isn't mentioned here. Just the rules to obey for life are mentioned....whose words are you going to believe? I'll stick with God's words....

continued.......

[As for] his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did [that] which [is] not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.


Eze 18:19 ¶ Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, [and] hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.

Hmmmm....God clearly indicates in the verses above and here that it is "possible" to keep the statutes.....but I thought that no one can keep the Law....again, I'll go with what God says....

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Sounds like faith and works...are righteousness....

Eze 18:21 ¶ But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

What's that? Turn from his sins and what? do that which is lawful and right? Sounds like faith and "works" doesn't it? I'll go with God's words on this....repent and obey God's Law...

Eze 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

Wait a minute...Did God just say that acts of righteousness will cover the transgressions that he previously commited? That's not what is taught in mainstream Christianity....What about "faith only"?

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live?


Eze 18:24 ¶ But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

So much for Once Saved Always Saved.......talk about heresy....it is possible for a righteous man to lose his righteousness...righteousness is a constant everyday struggle...

Eze 18:25 ¶ Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?


Eze 18:26 When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

What does committeth iniquity mean? Not adhering to God's Law as a continuing practice as shown above....

Eze 18:27 Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.

What is lawful and right? It is following God's law as given in verses 14 -17. But that's doing works...and we all know we can't be saved by obeying Torah and doing works....right? :wink: I'll go with God's recommendation rather than some famous man's opinion....

Eze 18:28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Repentence with a broken and contreit heart, along with with a continual vigil of the commandments listed above....

Eze 18:29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?


Eze 18:30 ¶ Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.


Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye.


This is why the Islanders will be saved.....with or without a sacrifice....

 

[ChristineES]

Well put, Georges. I know I don't always agree with you, but in this I do.
This whole thread had me angry because there were some who actually chose "no"! I was almost finished with it, but I am glad I read it now.

 

[Georges]

Well put, Georges. I know I don't always agree with you, but in this I do.
This whole thread had me angry because there were some who actually chose "no"! I was almost finished with it, but I am glad I read it now.

That's what it was for...to give discussion on controversial issues....after reviewing the verses above, I wonder if any who voted NO will have a second thought about it....

actually, I remembered the chapter (and I think one of the most important chapters in the OT) when I was looking at the Adam and Eve thread...

 

[Rob]

Well put, Georges. I know I don't always agree with you, but in this I do.
This whole thread had me angry because there were some who actually chose "no"! I was almost finished with it, but I am glad I read it now.

That's what it was for...to give discussion on controversial issues....after reviewing the verses above, I wonder if any who voted NO will have a second thought about it....

actually, I remembered the chapter (and I think one of the most important chapters in the OT) when I was looking at the Adam and Eve thread...

Actually after reading what you posted above I have to ask you something. For what reason do you believe that God's son came to earth and died? I'll wait till you answer that before proceeding any further.

 

[Georges]

Well put, Georges. I know I don't always agree with you, but in this I do.
This whole thread had me angry because there were some who actually chose "no"! I was almost finished with it, but I am glad I read it now.

That's what it was for...to give discussion on controversial issues....after reviewing the verses above, I wonder if any who voted NO will have a second thought about it....

actually, I remembered the chapter (and I think one of the most important chapters in the OT) when I was looking at the Adam and Eve thread...

Actually after reading what you posted above I have to ask you something. For what reason do you believe that God's son came to earth and died? I'll wait till you answer that before proceeding any further.

I don't really want to get off the OP topic...as the Islanders no nothing of a savior who had to die for them....they only have the OT to go by....but if you have to ask me the above, it's becaue you don't know me, or my posts..I will answer this but will not continue unless it is in the context of the Island...that is OT only.

Well...I'm not a trinitarian..so I won't actually say He is God come to earth...in the classical sense...

I believe Jehovah empowered Jesus with his Holy Spirit (Isa 11:2) to bring the people "who had corrupted the original intent of the Torah" back to a more pure Torah obedience....in that way, he is our savior because he shown us how to live righteously... that is supported by the verses I posted above....why did he have to die? He didn't....God can forgive sins because he is God...simple as that...but if you want to get more into that, start another thread and I'll engage...

 

[Rob]

Georges, I will respect your wish to keep to the point of the OP here. If the man on the island only had the OT then surely he would see this,

"Who has believed our report? And to whom is the arm of Jehovah revealed?
For He comes up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground. He has no form nor magnificence that we should see Him; nor form that we should desire Him. He is despised and abandoned of men, a Man of pains, and acquainted with sickness. And as it were hiding our faces from Him, He being despised, and we did not value Him. Surely He has borne our sicknesses, and He carried our pain; yet we esteemed Him plagued, smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His wounds we ourselves are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have each one turned to his own way; and Jehovah made meet in Him the iniquity of all of us. He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, but He did not open His mouth. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter; and as a ewe before her shearers is dumb, so He opened not His mouth. He was taken from prison and from justice; and who shall consider His generation? For He was cut off out of the land of the living; from the transgression of My people, the stroke was to Him. And He appointed Him His grave with the wicked, but He was with a rich man in His death; though He had done no violence, and deceit was not in His mouth. But Jehovah pleased to crush Him, to make Him sick, so that If He should put His soul as a guilt offering, He shall see His seed; He shall prolong His days; and the will of Jehovah shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the fruit of the travail of His soul; He shall be fully satisfied. By His knowledge the righteous One, My Servant, shall justify for many, and He shall bear their iniquities. Because of this I will divide to Him with the great, and with the strong He shall divide the spoil; because He poured out His soul to death; and He was counted with those transgressing; and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for those transgressing." Isaiah 53:1-12 LITV

So what would this man on the island have to believe from reading the above post? I'll post some more about this after I see your answer.

 

[Georges]

Georges, I will respect your wish to keep to the point of the OP here. If the man on the island only had the OT then surely he would see this,

"Who has believed our report? And to whom is the arm of Jehovah revealed?
For He comes up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground. He has no form nor magnificence that we should see Him; nor form that we should desire Him. He is despised and abandoned of men, a Man of pains, and acquainted with sickness. And as it were hiding our faces from Him, He being despised, and we did not value Him. Surely He has borne our sicknesses, and He carried our pain; yet we esteemed Him plagued, smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His wounds we ourselves are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have each one turned to his own way; and Jehovah made meet in Him the iniquity of all of us. He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, but He did not open His mouth. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter; and as a ewe before her shearers is dumb, so He opened not His mouth. He was taken from prison and from justice; and who shall consider His generation? For He was cut off out of the land of the living; from the transgression of My people, the stroke was to Him. And He appointed Him His grave with the wicked, but He was with a rich man in His death; though He had done no violence, and deceit was not in His mouth. But Jehovah pleased to crush Him, to make Him sick, so that If He should put His soul as a guilt offering, He shall see His seed; He shall prolong His days; and the will of Jehovah shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the fruit of the travail of His soul; He shall be fully satisfied. By His knowledge the righteous One, My Servant, shall justify for many, and He shall bear their iniquities. Because of this I will divide to Him with the great, and with the strong He shall divide the spoil; because He poured out His soul to death; and He was counted with those transgressing; and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for those transgressing." Isaiah 53:1-12 LITV

So what would this man on the island have to believe from reading the above post? I'll post some more about this after I see your answer.

Liking it Rob....liking it.....

Tough one Rob.....Tough one for those on the Island to figure out...Let me think about it for a minute....I have to get rid of my Christian teaching...and I have to get rid of of my learning of Judaism to see how a people who just picked up the book would interpret the above passage....

I believe, to them....they may recognize it as a prophetic passage concerning a Messiah...tough to say, in Judaism that is the case...but it all depends on how much Judaism (written and orally taught) they know...but since in the OP, I layed the scenario as they didn't know anything about Judaism other than the book in hand...I would be surprised if they would recognize the passage as a future Messianic occurence...

Still, even if they did recognize it as a Messianic passage, it still doesn't prove what I had written above (Eze 18) to be false...I was just doing some reading and it does appear that the Jew's had a conception that Messiah would suffer for the sins of the people....but would the Islanders have known that?

Still...you (anyone) can't argue the Eze passage....

 

[Rob]

George, I might just have to take you up on your offer for a seperate post tomorrow just to get inside your head some so keep your eyes open :D

As for the verses you have posted above, you are correct in assuming that I can't fully explain them but I'm looking into it and will post a thought later in this post. I've found one website that I would like you to share your views on though, http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets ... essiah.htm
The reason I ask you to take a look at that website is because I feel it's safe to assume that if they had the old testament they would eventually come to find the predictions of Christ's coming and what he would do for us, if the Jewish people could figure it out with nothing more than the OT then I'm sure this man on the island could too.

To get to my point, do you believe that God is bound by time? I honestly don't believe God is bound by anything including time. The reason I ask this is because if you don't believe God is bound by time then you might believe what I'm about to suggest. It is a common belief by most Christians that Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, he died to allow our sins to be forgiven(now I know you may differ from this belief but for the sake of this discussion right now just look at it from this point of view for a second). Now this man on the island would have the OT which clearly points to a coming Messiah or saviour and the OT clearly says this Messiah will die for our transgressions, that he bore our sins so that we could make it to heaven. Anyone reading the OT would likely find these verses and would believe that a Messiah was coming and would be the son of God. Now although I know this isn't supposed to use the NT because the NT isn't something the man on the island has I have to bring up this point, John 11:26. Now if God isn't bound by time then isn't it fair to say that the verses you posted from Eze could be relevant because of the sacrifice that was going to be made? Isn't it safe to say that because the Jew's believed that the Messiah would come and die for their transgressions that they believed in Jesus and that they are saved because of the ultimate sacrifice(assuming that the common view of Christianity is correct in assuming Jesus died for our transgressions as is said in the OT) So in a nutshell it could be said that Jesus died not just for those who believed afterwards but also for those who believed beforehand. You do realize that the verses you posted from Eze. closely resemble what modern Christianity teaches about repenting your sins.

*Edit*
I would also like to add that after having this discussion I have decided to change my original vote from a no to a yes :D Not just because of the verses from Eze but also in part because of what I just posted above. It was surely possible for someone to believe that God would make good on his promise :D

 

[Georges]

George, I might just have to take you up on your offer for a seperate post tomorrow just to get inside your head some so keep your eyes open :D

Rob...that could be a disturbing thing...."getting in my head".... :-D If you jump in one ear too quickly...you'll spring out the other side...cause there ain't nothing in there as many here will attest to...

As for the verses you have posted above, you are correct in assuming that I can't fully explain them but I'm looking into it and will post a thought later in this post.

If that is what you understood me to say...then I had mispoken...I was trying to suggest that based on the Eze 18 passage....that there couldn't be any other explaination than the one I presented...I mean Eze 18 is pretty straight forward... and really doesn't need any apology... it is in black and white..

I've found one website that I would like you to share your views on though, http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets ... essiah.htm

I will look into it tomorrow....

The reason I ask you to take a look at that website is because I feel it's safe to assume that if they had the old testament they would eventually come to find the predictions of Christ's coming and what he would do for us, if the Jewish people could figure it out with nothing more than the OT then I'm sure this man on the island could too.

Given enough time...they would come to the conclusion as the Jews did that there would be 2 Messiah.....Messiah ben Joseph (the suffering sevant) and Messiah ben David (the conquering king). They were right except that there is only 1 Messiah and two comings....but Rob keep in mind also that the Jews had other books also that were religiously important that aren't in the cannon...ie Book of Enoch....(not on the island). Still they would have figured out some Messianic system...Having said that...would they have enough time to figure it out...or would they still be saved because the tried to follow the Law with righteous intent.

To get to my point, do you believe that God is bound by time?

No...I do not think he is bound by time...although I do think he is bound by the time set up in the book...in other words...I believe God to have been from the beginning, but is now confined to the 7000 years from Adam to the end of the Messianic Millennium...and then after that infinity...

I honestly don't believe God is bound by anything including time. The reason I ask this is because if you don't believe God is bound by time then you might believe what I'm about to suggest. It is a common belief by most Christians that Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, he died to allow our sins to be forgiven(now I know you may differ from this belief but for the sake of this discussion right now just look at it from this point of view for a second). Now this man on the island would have the OT which clearly points to a coming Messiah or saviour and the OT clearly says this Messiah will die for our transgressions, that he bore our sins so that we could make it to heaven. Anyone reading the OT would likely find these verses and would believe that a Messiah was coming and would be the son of God. Now although I know this isn't supposed to use the NT because the NT isn't something the man on the island has I have to bring up this point, John 11:26. Now if God isn't bound by time then isn't it fair to say that the verses you posted from Eze could be relevant because of the sacrifice that was going to be made?

If the verses you posted in Isaiah clearly indicate that a man would die for the sins of men....you may have a case.... but consider this...(off the top of my head)...if that is the case, why continue the charade of keeping the Law? A law even Jesus himself (not on the Island) said would never pass away? It could well be that Jesus died for the sins of man...but that doesn't negate the Torah...Now...help me find a solution that accomodates both a "sin sacrifice" although the Isaiah verse calls it a "guilt offering" actually 2 differnt things...and Torah obedience as an individual's show of righteousness...can they both work?

What is the Key....? I gotta think about that..



Isn't it safe to say that because the Jew's believed that the Messiah would come and die for their transgressions that they believed in Jesus and that they are saved because of the ultimate sacrifice(assuming that the common view of Christianity is correct in assuming Jesus died for our transgressions as is said in the OT)


And a view I once held..Still wouldn't they be saved by being obedient to God by observing Torah and looking forward to Messiah. According to the Eze verse....it said that it was possible for a righteous man to sin and lose his eternal life.....Obviously, the man who was once righeous believed in the Messianic prophecies, yet if he sinned without repentence he was doomed. On a side note, in studying Jewish eschatology, they believe that the Messiah ben Joseph (suffering servant) will come to battle Armilus (the Jewish False Messiah) during the tribulation period...According to Jewish legend, M.B.J. will be killed by the hand of Armillus, only to be raised by MBDavid later on....so the Jews do believe that the Messiah would be killed (
Dan, and Isa) but they didn't consider him a sacrifice for sin (I have to research that again)......I know, I know this isn't on the island....I got side tracked...it happens...

So in a nutshell it could be said that Jesus died not just for those who believed afterwards but also for those who believed beforehand. You do realize that the verses you posted from Eze. closely resemble what modern Christianity teaches about repenting your sins.

I understand what you said and even said it myself in trying to justify why OT men would be saved if they didn't follow Torah perfectly.


*Edit*
I would also like to add that after having this discussion I have decided to change my original vote from a no to a yes :D Not just because of the verses from Eze but also in part because of what I just posted above. It was surely possible for someone to believe that God would make good on his promise :D

I'll take the yes anyway I can get it...

Very entertaining Rob....thanks...I have to look more into the sacrificial aspect....mainly because of the atonement sacrifices not lining up with the passover sacrifice dates...one in the fall, the other in spring..

 

[Rob]

Rob...that could be a disturbing thing...."getting in my head".... :-D If you jump in one ear too quickly...you'll spring out the other side...cause there ain't nothing in there as many here will attest to...

I didn't have time to get to that post today but I see I've gotten you making posts now :P I've seen enough of your posts to know that you are a pretty intellegent guy, even though I don't always agree with you lol. I look forward to getting into your head a little, as long as the post doesn't get locked :P

If that is what you understood me to say...then I had mispoken...I was trying to suggest that based on the Eze 18 passage....that there couldn't be any other explaination than the one I presented...I mean Eze 18 is pretty straight forward... and really doesn't need any apology... it is in black and white..

You are correct about those verses being pretty straight forward, the thing is how many men do you know of that have lived by the law of God? To do what Eze 18 says you would have to repent and become sin free, the problem is I can only think of one man that has been able to do that. In fact the hypothetical man on the island would surely see this, Ecclesiastes 7:20 and maybe begin to believe that the verses posted from Eze didn't really matter because it was impossible to follow. I don't know about you but I know I struggle with sin on a daily basis as I'm sure our hypothetical islanders would too. Unfortunatley the only way Eze 18 seems to cover the sin is if you don't sin any longer, a near impossible task for almost all.


Given enough time...they would come to the conclusion as the Jews did that there would be 2 Messiah.....Messiah ben Joseph (the suffering sevant) and Messiah ben David (the conquering king). They were right except that there is only 1 Messiah and two comings....but Rob keep in mind also that the Jews had other books also that were religiously important that aren't in the cannon...ie Book of Enoch....(not on the island). Still they would have figured out some Messianic system...Having said that...would they have enough time to figure it out...or would they still be saved because the tried to follow the Law with righteous intent.

I honestly don't know if that would be enough, not for a fact anyhow and this is an issue I will probably look into with prayer and study of scripture. I've actually learned this from two different viewpoints as a child, one was that the man who did not have the law would be judged based on their heart and the laws he followed through his conscience. The other I was taught was simply all who seek God will find him and that we didn't have to worry about the men in areas secluded from Christianity because all those people had to do was seek the truth. I'm not sure which, if either of those is in the Bible but I'll do some research on that one as well. I never knew questioning what I was taught as a young Christian would be so much work lol.

Obviously, the man who was once righeous believed in the Messianic prophecies, yet if he sinned without repentence he was doomed. On a side note, in studying Jewish eschatology, they believe that the Messiah ben Joseph (suffering servant) will come to battle Armilus (the Jewish False Messiah) during the tribulation period...According to Jewish legend, M.B.J. will be killed by the hand of Armillus, only to be raised by MBDavid later on....so the Jews do believe that the Messiah would be killed (
Dan, and Isa) but they didn't consider him a sacrifice for sin (I have to research that again)......I know, I know this isn't on the island....I got side tracked...it happens...

Isn't the meaning of repentence to turn away from? So this means the only way they can be saved is if they turn away from their sins, in other words stop sinning altogether? Do you believe this is possible? You yourself ask if they are saved by following the laws to the best of their ability but does one law outweigh the others? I have been putting some research into what the Jew's believed, the jury is still out on that one because it seems there are just as many different beliefs among Jews as there are among Christians :D BTW, this post is bound to get sidetracked in someway lol

I'll try to post some more tomorrow.

 

[Georges]

Rob...that could be a disturbing thing...."getting in my head".... :-D If you jump in one ear too quickly...you'll spring out the other side...cause there ain't nothing in there as many here will attest to...

I didn't have time to get to that post today but I see I've gotten you making posts now :P I've seen enough of your posts to know that you are a pretty intellegent guy, even though I don't always agree with you lol. I look forward to getting into your head a little, as long as the post doesn't get locked :P

I see you made your first mistake....you called me intelligent.... :-D I think 99% here would contest that....after all I'm not smart enough to figure out the trinity like my posting buddies have... (running joke).

If that is what you understood me to say...then I had mispoken...I was trying to suggest that based on the Eze 18 passage....that there couldn't be any other explaination than the one I presented...I mean Eze 18 is pretty straight forward... and really doesn't need any apology... it is in black and white..

You are correct about those verses being pretty straight forward, the thing is how many men do you know of that have lived by the law of God?

You don't have to...sadly, that's the beauty of it...God provides a way for atonement...and it's quite simple....repent and move on...

To do what Eze 18 says you would have to repent and become sin free, the problem is I can only think of one man that has been able to do that.

Chrisitian misconception....repent...and try not to repeat the sin...if you do repent...God knows if you are truely sorry or not...the motive for repentence is what forgives the sin...and your halakah afterwards....

In fact the hypothetical man on the island would surely see this, Ecclesiastes 7:20 and maybe begin to believe that the verses posted from Eze didn't really matter because it was impossible to follow.

Clearly, Eze shows an up down up down state of affairs when it comes to sin and righteousness....so it doesn't matter...God knows that we are going to repeat sin...it that we try and not repeat...How many times Rob will your son sin against you and how many times will you forgive him....? Same principle. And the Ecc verse...that is very true...all men sin...but, God provides for an atonement...and of course Ecc finishes off with the verse that is my sign off verse..

I would also offer this in support....

Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

Psa 38:18 For I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin.

Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Pro 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

I don't know about you but I know I struggle with sin on a daily basis as I'm sure our hypothetical islanders would too. Unfortunatley the only way Eze 18 seems to cover the sin is if you don't sin any longer, a near impossible task for almost all.

Again Rob...you are falling for the classic "no one can keep 100% of the Law 100% percent of the time" misconception...the islanders have the verses I posted above as a guide for righteous repentance....without blood sacrifices even....Psalm 51:17. They know nothing about the depravity of th world....as classic Gnosticism teaches...they have sin defined as not keeping the commandments...they also have an example of a forgiving God who accepts atonement through repentance...

Given enough time...they would come to the conclusion as the Jews did that there would be 2 Messiah.....Messiah ben Joseph (the suffering sevant) and Messiah ben David (the conquering king). They were right except that there is only 1 Messiah and two comings....but Rob keep in mind also that the Jews had other books also that were religiously important that aren't in the cannon...ie Book of Enoch....(not on the island). Still they would have figured out some Messianic system...Having said that...would they have enough time to figure it out...or would they still be saved because the tried to follow the Law with righteous intent.

I honestly don't know if that would be enough, not for a fact anyhow and this is an issue I will probably look into with prayer and study of scripture. I've actually learned this from two different viewpoints as a child, one was that the man who did not have the law would be judged based on their heart and the laws he followed through his conscience. The other I was taught was simply all who seek God will find him and that we didn't have to worry about the men in areas secluded from Christianity because all those people had to do was seek the truth. I'm not sure which, if either of those is in the Bible but I'll do some research on that one as well. I never knew questioning what I was taught as a young Christian would be so much work lol.

Believe me Rob....I was a Trinity believing Lutheran Paulinist for 40 years... I just about lost my sanity when I started questioning the above....I got past it though....and i am very happy now that most of those questions for me are answered to my satisfaction....

Obviously, the man who was once righeous believed in the Messianic prophecies, yet if he sinned without repentence he was doomed. On a side note, in studying Jewish eschatology, they believe that the Messiah ben Joseph (suffering servant) will come to battle Armilus (the Jewish False Messiah) during the tribulation period...According to Jewish legend, M.B.J. will be killed by the hand of Armillus, only to be raised by MBDavid later on....so the Jews do believe that the Messiah would be killed (
Dan, and Isa) but they didn't consider him a sacrifice for sin (I have to research that again)......I know, I know this isn't on the island....I got side tracked...it happens...

Isn't the meaning of repentence to turn away from?

Yep...in Judaism it's know as Teshuvah...

So this means the only way they can be saved is if they turn away from their sins, in other words stop sinning altogether?

Or try to....again God knows that...and I will use the father/son example...I'm sure you will forgive your son sins commited against you (to a point). Rob, would you ask you son to die because of a sin commited against you? Of course not...you would forgive him of that sin...if he was repentent...if he sinned again....you might give him a lick or two, but you'd still forgive him...like most father's would do.

Do you believe this is possible?

Of course no one can keep Torah completely all of the time...it would be nice if all could...what a great world it would be....everyone loving their neighbor...sadly no one can keep the complete Torah...but sadly, we don't have to...God provides the atonement in our repentance...

You yourself ask if they are saved by following the laws to the best of their ability but does one law outweigh the others?

Slate wiped clean....when asking for forgiveness...

I have been putting some research into what the Jew's believed, the jury is still out on that one because it seems there are just as many different beliefs among Jews as there are among Christians :D BTW, this post is bound to get sidetracked in someway lol

They always do....

I'll try to post some more tomorrow.

Thanks for the discourse...

 

[Imagican]

George,

Please don't feel that this is a 'hijack' or any such attempt. But might I add a small addition to your scenario?

How about this SAME group is blessed with the SAME situation, the ONLY addition being the Holy Bible washes up instead of JUST the OT. These people read it and through it's words, find Christ and through Him, The Father, God.

Now, there are NO Catholics or Protestants there to 'teach' them the meanings behind the words. Are they able to come to the truth through the Word ALONE, without anyone there with a 'previous' understanding to teach them?

Yes or No?

I only offer this for you have done an EXELLENT job of 'clearing up' much of the doubt that many may have had concerning your original question. I believe that ANY with understanding are NOW clear that Salvation is NOT about 'man-made' tradition and has MUCH more to do with a 'relationship' with Our Father. I am just curious as to what the responses will be to whether this 'same' group would be able to 'sort out' the 'truth' ON THEIR OWN, or whether there are those that believe that they MUST be led by 'others'.

MEC

 

[Georges]

George,

Please don't feel that this is a 'hijack' or any such attempt. But might I add a small addition to your scenario?

How about this SAME group is blessed with the SAME situation, the ONLY addition being the Holy Bible washes up instead of JUST the OT. These people read it and through it's words, find Christ and through Him, The Father, God.

OK....Ima...for you I'll let one more book wash up on shore....In my library of books...I have 2 books written by Richard Lattimore...One is "The Four Gospels & The Revelation", the other " Acts and Letters of the Apostles"...both translated from the original Greek.

For you, I will allow "The Four Gospels & The Revelation" to wash ashore....


Now, there are NO Catholics or Protestants there to 'teach' them the meanings behind the words. Are they able to come to the truth through the Word ALONE, without anyone there with a 'previous' understanding to teach them?

Yes or No?

With only the "OT" and "The Four Gospels & The Revelation", I think a very different (and more interesting) picture of Jesus emerges...I suggest the true picture of Jesus...

I only offer this for you have done an EXELLENT job of 'clearing up' much of the doubt that many may have had concerning your original question. I believe that ANY with understanding are NOW clear that Salvation is NOT about 'man-made' tradition and has MUCH more to do with a 'relationship' with Our Father.

Agreed...

I am just curious as to what the responses will be to whether this 'same' group would be able to 'sort out' the 'truth' ON THEIR OWN, or whether there are those that believe that they MUST be led by 'others'.

MEC

Here would be an interesting scene....The OT washes up on the island and the people of the entire Island read the OT and decide they want to follow the Laws of Righteous...

At some point in the future, 2 books wash ashore on different parts of the island....On one side, Lattimores "The Four Gospels and The Revelation" washes ashore.....On the other side of the island, "Acts and The Letters of the Apostles (sans Peter, James, John, Jude)" washes ashore.....

I can see the same situation as battled in early Chrisianity between Paul and the Apostles in Jerusalem...

Would the island scene be an interesting experiment.

 

[Imagican]

Yes indeed. And I believe that these 'Islanders' would have a MUCH purer understanding of Christ than most have RIGHT NOW. For these would be free, at least for a time, of the 'traditions' that have confused SO MANY. They would be ABLE to discern the 'truth' concerning Christ without someone ELSES tradtions 'getting in the way'.

Not that these too might not follow the SAME path as has been followed in our developement of Christianity. It is QUITE possible that these too may insist on incorporating Christ into their 'previous' religious ritual. Combining them in a sense. Continuing to 'hold dear' the ritual of the past and simply 'finding a way' to incorporate 'it' into 'their 'form' of Christianity'.

But, if they didn't, if they simply 'did away' with their 'previous' religion and 'started OVER' with God and Christ, how much PURER would their understanding 'truly' be?

MEC