Hypothetical Man on the Island.....

[Mhz]

Mhz wrote:... Well said, but how are they saved if they know not, or confess not, Christ as Savior?

The exact same way that Abraham, Isaac and David and the rest of the OT saints were saved. The same way you are saved as a matter of fact. They followed God and believed what he said and their faith was counted as righteousness.

I understand how this makes the rules the same for everyone no matter if they lived pre-cross or post-cross and it rewards those who have true faith but I've got to wonder why God needed to sacrifive his son if his real goal was finding men of faith.

If an act or deed on our part does the saving (call it faith or works or obedience) then why shed Christ's blood? Why doesn't God simply save us based on our individual faith the way he did Abraham and the guys and spare his son?

 

[lovely]

Christ IS in the Old Testament. The Holy Spirit is our teacher if we are born again. Consider Isaiah 53...the whole gospel is right there. The Holy Spirit can show them that the blood shed to cover Adam and Eve is a picture of Christ. The Ark that carried Noah, is a picture of Christ. Abraham sacrificing Isaac is a picture of Christ. That all that is contained there in their book of Scripture is part of a redmeption plan for them. It is within God's power to save them, but it would not be by works alone...though their efforts to good because of their faith is faith, but that comes by the Spirit, and through the blood of the Lamb which is the only worthy path. They could have belief in Christ, or in the hope of Christ, but also have the benefits of part of the Word which brings repentance, being born again by the Spirit through the blood of the Lamb, and grace (even unknowingly) to cover their sin. The Lord bless you all.

 

[Georges]

Mhz wrote:... Well said, but how are they saved if they know not, or confess not, Christ as Savior?

The exact same way that Abraham, Isaac and David and the rest of the OT saints were saved. The same way you are saved as a matter of fact. They followed God and believed what he said and their faith was counted as righteousness.

I understand how this makes the rules the same for everyone no matter if they lived pre-cross or post-cross and it rewards those who have true faith but I've got to wonder why God needed to sacrifive his son if his real goal was finding men of faith.

Things that make you go Hmmmmm......


If an act or deed on our part does the saving (call it faith or works or obedience) then why shed Christ's blood?

God does the saving...man chooses to be saved...by acting like a good obedient son...Son's make mistakes, father's correct them...

Why doesn't God simply save us based on our individual faith the way he did Abraham and the guys and spare his son?

Things that make you go Hmmmm....

The same questions I had once...

 

[Vic C.]

Do you believe that the Grace of God was at work in the OT and that the faith of people like Abraham, Noah, Mosses, David, etc. is what will save them?

Faith and Works my friend....Every one of them had Faith and performed Works...

Isaiah 64
6 ¶ But we are all as the unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as a menstruation cloth. And we all fade as a leaf, and like the wind our iniquities take us away. (LITV)

Prety graphic, heh?

Again, we can't for sure say they will be saved. We only see their "works". God will judge them according to their "heart".

 

[Georges]

Christ IS in the Old Testament. The Holy Spirit is our teacher if we are born again. Consider Isaiah 53...the whole gospel is right there. The Holy Spirit can show them that the blood shed to cover Adam and Eve is a picture of Christ. The Ark that carried Noah, is a picture of Christ. Abraham sacrificing Isaac is a picture of Christ. That all that is contained there in their book of Scripture is part of a redmeption plan for them. It is within God's power to save them, but it would not be by works alone...though their efforts to good because of their faith is faith, but that comes by the Spirit, and through the blood of the Lamb which is the only worthy path. They could have belief in Christ, or in the hope of Christ, but also have the benefits of part of the Word which brings repentance, being born again by the Spirit through the blood of the Lamb, and grace (even unknowingly) to cover their sin. The Lord bless you all.

Can't use it on the Island.....Ono Solo doesn't know who Jesus is....so he can't look at typology.....Solo has what he has.....MHZ is onto something....

 

[Vic C.]

God does the saving...man chooses to be saved...by acting like a good obedient son...Son's make mistakes, father's correct them...

This is untrue. Man does not and cannot choose to be saved. He can only choose to believe.

Not all sons make mistakes, which was the point to Lovely's post. The plan of salvation was indeed throughout the OT. The peoblem we have here is, this story is like a paint by numbers picture that is missing a whole bunch of numbers. Think of those missing numbers as the Spirit of God.

In the OT, we see the Spirit moving through people; from one person to another, never staying for anyone for any real length of time. Now, were these people on the island inspired by the Spirit or were they following the book on their own accord?

 

[Mhz]

God does the saving...man chooses to be saved...by acting like a good obedient son...Son's make mistakes, father's correct them...

This is untrue. Man does not and cannot choose to be saved. He can only choose to believe.

Not all sons make mistakes, which was the point to Lovely's post.

Surely you jest! There is only one son that never made a mistake the rest of us bounce from one mistake to the next.

Can you explain yourself regarding the our inability to save ourselves and choosing to believe?

Aren't you saved once you believe; and if believing is the key then choosing to believe must be equal to saving ourselves.

And another question; if God judges the heart (as it has been suggested here) then what chance do any of us have if it all our hearts are desperately wicked as we are told in scripture.

Any way you cut it, it sounds like salvation ultimately requires our effort, unless you mean that all men are saved and some just don't believe it? That would explain a lot of issues.

 

[Georges]

God does the saving...man chooses to be saved...by acting like a good obedient son...Son's make mistakes, father's correct them...

This is untrue. Man does not and cannot choose to be saved. He can only choose to believe.

Same thing Vic....If you choose to be saved...you choose to believe. If you are choosing to believe (and act on it), then you choose to be saved...

Not all sons make mistakes, which was the point to Lovely's post.

Come on Vic....all sons make mistakes....name me one besides "Christ" who hasn't....Now, if you are claiming that because I included Christ in "all sons" the statement isn't valid...then reassess.

The plan of salvation was indeed throughout the OT. The peoblem we have here is, this story is like a paint by numbers picture that is missing a whole bunch of numbers. Think of those missing numbers as the Spirit of God.

Vic....come on.....

In the OT, we see the Spirit moving through people; from one person to another, never staying for anyone for any real length of time.

The same can be said in the NT (can't use it on the island)..the Spirit of God never changes..it can come and go as God chooses.

Now, were these people on the island inspired by the Spirit or were they following the book on their own accord?

Both.....The Spirit generates a desire to be holy for those who want to be holy...

 

[ChristineES]

What you need to ask yourself is that you WANT someone to be eternally cut off from God? Who wants to see people suffer? Some people are evil, we can not deny that. Some of you say, "we are all evil" yes, that is true, too. What if the person who has never heard of Yeshua has followed the Old Testament perfectly, prays to God, gives himself (or herself) to God? Would you wish that person be cut off from God? I would not want to make the judgement, so I don't. Some of you seem to love to do what I would loath to do. :evil: [/i]

 

[Vic C.]

Surely you jest! There is only one son that never made a mistake the rest of us bounce from one mistake to the next.

Come on Vic....all sons make mistakes....name me one besides "Christ" who hasn't....

Exactly. That was my point. :-?

Aren't you saved once you believe; and if believing is the key then choosing to believe must be equal to saving ourselves.

And another question; if God judges the heart (as it has been suggested here) then what chance do any of us have if it all our hearts are desperately wicked as we are told in scripture.

I can't answer that within the parameters George set.

 

[Vic C.]

Vic....come on.....

No, I'm serious. You designed a hypothetical situation, then tie our hands by not allowing us to answer in the only way Spirit-indwelled Christians are led to answer.

The same can be said in the NT (can't use it on the island)..the Spirit of God never changes..it can come and go as God chooses.

No, the same can't be said. While the Spirit never changes, the way it deals with believers has changed. Explain to me what heppened in Acts 2.

Both.....The Spirit generates a desire to be holy for those who want to be holy...

Really now. Next time you start a thread like this, put all your cards on the table instead of telling us what your "house rules" are as the game goes on. Let me guess what's next; the Jews never really rejected Messiah. It's all in the feeble minds of we Christians.

Stick to End Times George. You do much better there.

 

[Georges]

Vic....come on.....

No, I'm serious. You designed a hypothetical situation, then tie our hands by not allowing us to answer in the only way Spirit-indwelled Christians are led to answer.

I'm not tying the hands Vic...I'm presenting a scenario that is exactly like it was even in the day that Jesus was on earth...the same principle applied then, as it does now on the Island...both had only the OT to learn from, yet they were saved because of faith and works.

[quote:599aa]The same can be said in the NT (can't use it on the island)..the Spirit of God never changes..it can come and go as God chooses.

No, the same can't be said. While the Spirit never changes, the way it deals with believers has changed. Explain to me what heppened in Acts 2.

Can't...it doesn't exist on the Island.... :-D. Vic...the Spirit comes and goes on believers today...Are you suggesting that once you have the spirit come upon you, that it remains on you....?

Both.....The Spirit generates a desire to be holy for those who want to be holy...

Really now.

Yeh...you choose to accept Christ and live your life as he would want is to be holy (your choice)...if you don't want it...you won't get it.....

Next time you start a thread like this, put all your cards on the table instead of telling us what your "house rules" are as the game goes on.

Come on Vic... What card wasn't put on the table "face up"? It's quite simple Vic....the Island Scenario is the same as 1st century Judea....All they knew of salvation was the OT...those who abided by God's law with righteous intent (ie Moses, David, and even Simeon) were saved (at least I'm pretty sure they were).

Let me guess what's next; the Jews never really rejected Messiah. It's all in the feeble minds of we Christians.

No...many of them didn't reject Messiah...as proven by early Church history..and guess what Vic...they obeyed Torah as well...you should know that...Actually, I'm amazed at your last couple of posts on this topic...not "your" typical posts...guess I'm wearing on your patience.

Stick to End Times George. You do much better there.

Ah...Vic..(shake of the head)...accusing me of changing the rules....manipulating maybe :D ...changing?....I don't think I am...

Disguised chastisement, or a friendly warning perhaps? I think I'm doing pretty good presenting the case here...and pretty much on the other threads in the A and T forum...



[/quote:599aa]

What's the matter Vic? Are ya angry I won't let Paul on the Island? :-D It's for his own good. I'm afraid if I did....he would suffer the same fate as he did in Asia Minor...

2Cr 1:8 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:

What happened? Asia Minor is the whole of modern Turkey...why did they turn their back on him?

2Ti 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

Can't float a raft of the Pauline epistles in to the island...they'd have to compare him to the OT like they finally did in Asia...and they don't even have the Gospels or Apostolic Letters yet to measure...

 

[unred typo]

Mhz wrote:I understand how this makes the rules the same for everyone no matter if they lived pre-cross or post-cross and it rewards those who have true faith but I've got to wonder why God needed to sacrifive his son if his real goal was finding men of faith.
If an act or deed on our part does the saving (call it faith or works or obedience) then why shed Christ's blood? Why doesn't God simply save us based on our individual faith the way he did Abraham and the guys and spare his son?

Good question. Excellent question. Long answer…sorry…

First, we can’t be perfect. (all have sinned? yup) Heaven? We can’t get there from here. Christ is the ‘way’ to get there. (the way, the truth and the life? In him was life and the life was the light of men? No man comes to the father but by me? He that hath the Son hath life…Remember those?) The only way to heaven for us is to be placed ‘in Christ’ and the only way for us to be ‘in Christ’ is to be living in love and humility and faith and mercy and not in selfish, greedy, hateful lust and pride. (read the book of 1st John)

None of those attitudes can go to heaven. Those things have to be put off us and we put on Christ. Our sins have to be confessed and forsaken and the blood…remember the blood?….has to cover those sins. We have to be cleansed. The blood was applied to those in OT times after the cross when Jesus led captivity captive, and brought those OT believers to heaven with him. Pre cross sacrifices looked forward to the cross, and after, we look back to the cross for a covering for the sin that we confess and forsake. We have to confess and forsake our sin in order to be forgiven, and when we do that, the Holy Spirit washes the sin away. Stop hmmming now, George, and sing it- There is power…power…wonder working power… in the blood …of the lamb….

The blood is the free gift that we cannot pay for. By believing what Jesus told us to do to be saved, and doing it, we are living by faith. That is what ‘having faith’ means. Believing what Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit says to do and doing it (not just thinking about it, talking about it, and promising to do it, but actually living by it. Loving one another, forgiving one another, putting off the lusts of the flesh.) We still need the blood because we mess up and fall off the way and need to be cleaned up and set back on the narrow path. It’s a day by day walk of faith in Christ’s message of love.

What George has forgotten in his scenario is that whether the islanders know it or not, the Holy Spirit is real and works in all hearts to lead them to the truth of Christ; love for one another and God. You have to resist the Holy Spirit to get him to leave you alone and even then he keeps trying to bring you back into the right way. If we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness… so we can be fit to live with our perfect God. :fadein:

 

[jgredline]

georges
Great post. I have enjoyed following it. I voted Yes simply based on all the ot saints that are saved. Unread Type did hit it on the head with the Romans passage.

 

[Mhz]

and the blood…remember the blood?….has to cover those sins. We have to be cleansed. The blood was applied to those in OT times after the cross when Jesus led captivity captive, and brought those OT believers to heaven with him. Pre cross sacrifices looked forward to the cross, and after, we look back to the cross for a covering for the sin that we confess and forsake.

The blood is the free gift that we cannot pay for. By believing what Jesus told us to do to be saved, and doing it, we are living by faith. That is what ‘having faith’ means. Believing what Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit says to do and doing it (not just thinking about it, talking about it, and promising to do it, but actually living by it. Loving one another, forgiving one another, putting off the lusts of the flesh.) We still need the blood because we mess up and fall off the way and need to be cleaned up and set back on the narrow path. It’s a day by day walk of faith in Christ’s message of love.

Thanks Typo, I’m sure you’re right about our need for a savior and his sacrifice. And the blood of Christ must be the power of salvation or God wouldn’t have required it. It also makes perfect sense that his sacrifice took care of the wages of sins both pre cross and post cross. And I understand the benefit of adding our faith to what Christ has done and believing in what Christ has accomplished.

Let me ask a another question of anyone here: if Christ’s blood was sufficient for the cleansing of the sins of the world how can my faith or the lack thereof void it? Was his sacrifice arbitrary? Or conditional? Does the penalty for my sin remain unpaid if I have no faith to believe otherwise?

 

[unred typo]

Mhz wrote: Let me ask a another question of anyone here: if Christ’s blood was sufficient for the cleansing of the sins of the world how can my faith or the lack thereof void it? Was his sacrifice arbitrary? Or conditional? Does the penalty for my sin remain unpaid if I have no faith to believe otherwise?

I believe forgiveness is freely offered to all people and sufficient for all. ( 1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. ) It is applied upon condition of our repentance and patient continuance in well doing. ( Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, [ he grants ] eternal life)

God knows the weakness of our flesh and he is there to help us and prompt us to do right, convict us of wrongs and remind us of past resolutions to change. We have no excuse to sin though, since he says he will not allow us to be tempted above that which we are able to resist. Resisting is our job. Repenting is our job. The removing of sin when we confess and repent is the job of the Holy Spirit. That is his free gift to us. The perfect sacrifice we could not pay.

We must believe what he taught and actually believe it enough to follow it. This is what faith is. 1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe.
The Bible stresses that the important thing is that we are found in Christ and his spirit remains in us. Without the Spirit in us, we are lost. The penalty for all sin has been paid for the whole world but those who do not remain ‘in Christ’ do not avail themselves of it.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

We remain ‘in Christ’ when we live and walk in his teachings and his word remains in us. 1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him.
My lack of faith does not void the power of the blood to remove my sin, it just isn’t applied to my sin, until and unless I repent, walking in love and forgiveness of others. 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Back to George’s island people, they are saved by being in Christ, they are in Christ by keeping his commands, because they have faith in the word of God, believing the law written on their hearts, which is confirmed by the Holy Spirit who indwells those who live according to the love of God. Simple huh? 8-) :-? Simply put, the Spirit places them ‘in Christ’ because they follow his word. The Torah is a shadow of the word. The word is written on their hearts. The Spirit uses this word to ‘provoke them to love and good works.’ The word is LOVE. (down drops the Groucho Marx chicken) :-D That is really the only word you need, out of all this mess I wrote. And I didn't even need to write that either since:

1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love you need not that I write unto you: for you yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

 

[lovely]

Georges, I do not mean to be dense, but why can't the Holy Spirit indwell people on an island in 2006? We do not need to read Paul for that to happen. Christ has already died, and man can certainly be born of the Spirit. Maybe I am misunderstanding you, perhaps?

If they only have the Old Testament, but they have the benefit of the Spirit of God, then I'd say they were better of than those who didn't have the Spirit to teach them...and that is John, not Paul, but either way they do not have to read about the Spirit of God indwelling them for it to actually dwell in them. They do not have to know that the Saviour has come to die for them to believe in the hope of a Saviour that will come and die for them. I do not see why we have to say it is a works based salvation when they can not possibly keep the whole law. There has never been a salvation by works. They are in need of the grace given through the blood of the Lamb to be saved and their obedience is the outworking of that. Abraham also believed God, and this is why God imputed righteousness to Him, not because He kept the whole law...because he didn't. Abraham had faith, and he needed to sacrifice animals his whole life while he waited for the hope of Christ, and the generations after him did the same while they waited....but God saved them through the blood of the LAMB. One event saved man. In 2006, that blood has been shed already, and the Spirit has been given, and those on the island, even with only part of the Word, are saved just like every other human being through the blood of Jesus Christ. The difference between them, and Abraham, is that they do not need to sacrifice animals, even though they may think they need to. The Lord bless you all.

 

[unred typo]

Lovely wrote: Abraham also believed God, and this is why God imputed righteousness to Him, not because He kept the whole law...because he didn't. Abraham had faith, and he needed to sacrifice animals his whole life while he waited for the hope of Christ, and the generations after him did the same while they waited....but God saved them through the blood of the LAMB. One event saved man. In 2006, that blood has been shed already, and the Spirit has been given, and those on the island, even with only part of the Word, are saved just like every other human being through the blood of Jesus Christ. The difference between them, and Abraham, is that they do not need to sacrifice animals, even though they may think they need to.

I’m curious. Where do the works of faith that James talked about come into your scenario? If the islanders do sacrifice yet continue to live in unbridled sin, are they saved by their faith in the sacrifice? You went as far as to say that the blood was needed to perfect the faith of Abraham, thus eliminating the ability of Abraham to boast that he was saved by his works, but where does all the commands of God come into this? Abraham believed God enough to obey him, enough to take his beloved son up Mt. Moriah. The Bible called him, ‘righteous Abraham.’ He had faith shown by his works.

Jesus had very little to say about his own sacrifice for sin to his followers but he constantly talked about obedience to God. Where does obedience fit into your theology? Is it optional or is it a gift to God from man? That would seem a little presumptuous at best. I never could fit the commands of Christ into a grace-based workless theology, but perhaps I missed something. What did Jesus mean when he said if we did not forgive, we would not be forgiven? :-?

If the Spirit leads the islanders, what does he lead them to do? The sacrifices were not supposed to be used in place of living according to God’s commands. The sacrifices (representing Christ’s death ) were meant to restore them into a right relationship with God. Instead, the Israelites were using the sacrifices as a license to do whatever they wanted and then pay for it with the blood of an animal. They were sinning on the installment plan. Seems vaguely like some people live today.

 

[Georges]

What George has forgotten in his scenario is that whether the islanders know it or not, the Holy Spirit is real and works in all hearts to lead them to the truth of Christ; love for one another and God. \

There is no Christ in the OT for the Spirit to lead them too...I'm not forgetting anything....yet... the Holy Spirit leads them to follow God...Red, you yourself know that the essence of Torah is love for God and neighbor...True Torah observance accomplishes that.

You have to resist the Holy Spirit to get him to leave you alone and even then he keeps trying to bring you back into the right way. If we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness… so we can be fit to live with our perfect God. :fadein:

I agree with that...

 

[Georges]

georges
Great post. I have enjoyed following it. I voted Yes simply based on all the ot saints that are saved. Unread Type did hit it on the head with the Romans passage.