I am starting to REALLY like the Catholics (OC plz read)

[Righteousone]

Re:

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ummmm, if I may ask you to mention, BB...


The part the Catholics believe about this place called purgatory.... :roll:

The Catholics brow-beat you with threats about purgatory and paying pennance for your sins in purgatory. How about telling Soma-Sight how the Catholics put their own twist to how to get into heaven if you die without having confessed all of your sins before you flew the earthly coup. :P

Try and match that up with the teachings in the bible.
I'm sure the Catholics came up with something. It's been so long, I forgot what scripture they use to justify their teaching on this purgatory place.

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Really, then can you define this Scripture passage for me? Then Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit on the apostles and said "WHAT SINS YOU FORGIVE ARE FORGIVEN THEM, WHAT SINS YOU RETAIN ARE RETAINED". This clearly is 'confession' or pennance. Jesus is telling the apostles to go out and preach 'all nations' and that this has been passed down from apostle to today which is the priest. St. Peter is the pope passed down 265 popes later with aN unbroken link for 2,000 years. No one else can claim this. iT IS WHAT IT IS.

 

[Righteousone]

Re:

I am an ex-Catholic and I heard a lot about hell as a child in Catholic school.

I said this prayer every Friday from first to eighth grade at the Catholic school I attended.

Act of Contrition

O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins, known and unknown, not only because I dread the loss of heaven and dread the pains of hell, and not only because Thou art my Creator, my Redeemer and my Sanctifier, but most of all because my sins have offended Thee, my God, Who art all good in Thyself and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance and to amend my life. Amen.

Catholics believe in hell and the fires of it.

If you are thinking of becoming a RC because you don't like the doctrine of hell you are headed in the wrong direction.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION

IV. HELL

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Soma bounces from one thing to another like a rubber ball... :roll:

Um...if anyone strongly believes in hell and that we are all going there are the Baptists. As a Catholic then you should know that is so. Jesus spoke of hell or 'Gehenna' in the bible.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Re: Re:

I am an ex-Catholic and I heard a lot about hell as a child in Catholic school.

I said this prayer every Friday from first to eighth grade at the Catholic school I attended.

Act of Contrition

O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins, known and unknown, not only because I dread the loss of heaven and dread the pains of hell, and not only because Thou art my Creator, my Redeemer and my Sanctifier, but most of all because my sins have offended Thee, my God, Who art all good in Thyself and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance and to amend my life. Amen.

Catholics believe in hell and the fires of it.

If you are thinking of becoming a RC because you don't like the doctrine of hell you are headed in the wrong direction.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION

IV. HELL

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Soma bounces from one thing to another like a rubber ball... :roll:

Um...if anyone strongly believes in hell and that we are all going there are the Baptists. As a Catholic then you should know that is so. Jesus spoke of hell or 'Gehenna' in the bible.

Hell is eternal seperation from God, just as heaven is eternal bliss in union with God. If someone seperates themselves from God, that is their own doing, not God's. God will respect your free will choice to reject Him for all eternity

And is Hell eternal? Yes. The eternal nature of hell is stressed in the New Testament. For example, in Mark 9:47–48 Jesus warns us, "It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name." Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few" (Matt. 7:13–14).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" (CCC 1035).

http://www.catholic.com/library/Hell_There_Is.asp

 

[Vic C.]

Re: Re:

Um...if anyone strongly believes in hell and that we are all going there are the Baptists. As a Catholic then you should know that is so. Jesus spoke of hell or 'Gehenna' in the bible.

That isn't true. No Baptist believes all are going to hell; just the unsaved souls. ;-) Most of us do believe in the perseverance of the saints.

 

[Righteousone]

Well, most baptists I've listened too only think the CATHOLICS are going to hell.
To bad they don't realize the true church of Christ is the Catholic church.

 

[Free]

Well, there will be those who identify themselves as Catholics in hell; just as there will be those who identify themselves as Orthodox and Protestant. Not all who claim to be Christian are actually Christian.

To bad they don't realize the true church of Christ is the Catholic church.

Of course they do. But they also realize that the Catholic Church consists of the Roman Catholic church, all Protestant churches and all Orthodox churches, to name a few. The Catholic Church is the whole body of believers of which Christ is the head.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Well, I agree that people of all walks will be in both heaven and hell. Being a Catholic is not an automatic tocket to heaven

But you are wrong about sects outside the visible structure of the Church Christ established being Catholic. While they are brothers in Christ and rightfully called "CHRISTIAN", these protestanst sects are not in communon with Peter's successor and are not fully in communion with Christ's Chruch.

No offense intended, understand. This is my personal belief.

 

[Vic C.]

Well, most baptists I've listened too only think the CATHOLICS are going to hell.
To bad they don't realize the true church of Christ is the Catholic church.

The true ekklesia of Christ is the whole body of believers within and without any organized religious institution. Jesus or Paul never once taught we must belong to any particular institution to receive salvation.

Plus, we don't judge who's saved or not; we don't pass judgment in that respect.

We do teach, however, how one can avoid such judgment from the Lord. :fadein:

No offense intended, understand. This is my personal belief.

Heh, that doesn't offend me, though I don't believe it for a moment. But you may as well concede that it is your belief because it is the belief of the RCC. 8-) May I ask how you can tell Free he is wrong, but then state it is just your belief?

You could have said, "Free, I believe you are wrong". ;-)

 

[Catholic Crusader]

.....You could have said, "Free, I believe you are wrong".

I believe you AND Free are wrong. LOL :D :-D

 

[francisdesales]

The true ekklesia of Christ is the whole body of believers within and without any organized religious institution. Jesus or Paul never once taught we must belong to any particular institution to receive salvation.

Are you sure about that, Vic? May I express my opinion?

Were Judaizers (Ebionites) who believed Jesus was the Messiah considered part of the Body of believers, even though they WERE "believers" in a sense? Same with the Gnostics. I have studied the history on this, and I find that alternative Christian groups DID exist in the first centuries (some Catholics simplify this quite a bit by saying there were no "protestants" back then, but that is untrue - although the protesters were Judaizers and Gnostics, rather than Lutheran and Calvin!)

I think if you read Paul, you will find that he did NOT consider these men of unorthodox beliefs as "believers" or as part of the Body. Only those who were considered orthodox, one faith, as Ephesians notes, were part of the Body. That one faith was found in the original apostolic communities that we call "Catholic" by the second century.

Even today, we have mentally established a particular "orthodoxy" required to be part of the Body. Of course, Protesantism has a more broad definition, but it DOES have borders - Mormons and JV's are considered outside the Body by most Protestants, and that is because of their heterodoxy. So again, the Body membership depends in part on WHAT our faith consists of. Further exploration will make this "orthodoxy" more narrow, as Catholics of the second century understood it. The canon pretty much proves that, since other alternative Christians had their OWN "Scriptures".

To sum up, I do not think we can lightly dismiss that being within a particular community was NOT required to be part of the Church... Second century Christians like Ignatius merely confirm that view. Seems that "heretical" views would get one evicked from the Body...

Plus, we don't judge who's saved or not; we don't pass judgment in that respect.

Yes, it is not our place to judge individuals, although we ARE called, in some respect, to look after our brothers if they stray, correct?

Regards

 

[fcs25]

:-D Welcome to the Catholic Church.I converted two years ago after researching Christian history and reading what the early church taught and believed in.When you are honest and read about the first writing of the church it is very easy to see that the Catholic Church was always present and is the one true church as taught by the apostles.

 

[Vic C.]

[quote="vic C.":bdf48].....You could have said, "Free, I believe you are wrong".

I believe you AND Free are wrong. LOL :D :-D[/quote:bdf48]
:smt056

:

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Joe,

I have no problem using the creed below as my guideline to determine who makes up the body of believers we call the ekklesia: ( I don't use the word church much)

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hades.

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

*The word "catholic" refers not to the Roman Catholic Church, but to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I do believe those splinter groups you mentioned above would disagree with us. ;-) Over and above that though, most of my beliefs are derived from the Reformers confession of faith, known as the The Belgic Confession (with a few exceptions regarding free will and election and some point concerning judgment) http://www.creeds.net/reformed/belgic/main.htm#1

Joe, you and I have the same scriptures, sans what we call the Apocrypha; we disagree on some of it's interpretation and how much of oral tradition should be placed above Scripture, if any. The Pharisees knew scripture and taught oral tradition and Jesus clearly showed them where their traditions were wrong in many cases, most cases.

 

[francisdesales]

Hi Joe,

I have no problem using the creed below as my guideline to determine who makes up the body of believers we call the ekklesia: ( I don't use the word church much)

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.

He descended into hades.

The third day He arose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.

Amen.

*The word "catholic" refers not to the Roman Catholic Church, but to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I will first say I agree that "catholic" does not refer to "Roman Catholic Church". I do not know why that term continues to be used here, I have tried over and over to state this term is a Reformation-era term. It is never used by the Catholic Church's documents OR any Church Father of the first millenium! A person can easily look up the first useage of that word. The word 'catholic' DOES refer to a specific Church, however, as there was only ONE universal Christian Church. One could point to where the Catholic Church was, because it is visible. Certainly, people may be attached to it without realizing it (they follow the Apostles' teachings, working out their faith in love). But Christ did not establish an etheral-only Church, where members had no visible unity. Matthew 18:17-18 strikes me rather strongly here. Bear with me...

15Therefore if thy brother shall sin against thee, go and reprove him between thee and him alone; if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16But if he will not hear [thee, then] take with thee one or two more that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church; but if he neglects to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a worldly man and a publican. 18Verily I say unto you, Whatever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in the heaven; and whatever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in the heaven. Matthew 18:15-18 I left the verse numbers for reference.

Now, let's look at this passage. Note in 16, it says to take problems to "two or three" witnesses, for judging purposes. IF the Church "stopped" there, what would be the need for the NEXT TWO verses, Vic? It presumes that there is something visible and given more authority than the "two or three" witnesses. Note the Church has the ability to expel obstinate members, another indication that the Church is a particular visible body. In addition, Christ even gives the apostles (and their successors, since the ekklesia is to be for all time) the authority to bind and loosen, rabbinical terms that stress legal jurisdiction amongst the community. I see no reason why only the living apostles were given this power, to die off after their death - and the Church verifies that belief in their continued actions. Thus, I have a hard time, from Scriptures, denying that Christ DID establish a "Catholic" Church.

Another thing to consider is that this "Church" should be available to Christians of all time, including 400 AD, 1200 AD and today. Why? Because Christ said even the gates of hell would not prevail against it - meaning error, since Jesus calls satan the father of Lies (NOT father of sin or evil...) while Jesus calls Himself Truth. The only historical organization that has remained is the Catholic Church. Only this organization has been available for the Christian who cannot solve problems by going to "two or three". I believe once one accepts Jesus as God and has indeed established a visible community, it follows that this community would remain available to all Chrisitans of all times and He would protect it. Natually, if we distrust Christ, we'll doubt the Church's claim. But historically speaking, is their an alternative Christian church we can point to that has existed from the beginning? Where are the Judaizers? The Gnostics disappeared. Heresies have come and gone but the Catholic Church, all of its warts, is still here. I find that powerful, personally.

I do believe those splinter groups you mentioned above would disagree with us. ;-) Over and above that though, most of my beliefs are derived from the Reformers confession of faith, known as the The Belgic Confession (with a few exceptions regarding free will and election and some point concerning judgment) http://www.creeds.net/reformed/belgic/main.htm#1

Yes, those splinter groups would disagree - and this shows that "orthodoxy" is at least to some degree the determinant for who is of the Church. Scriptures show this, as well. I am not aware of a Judaizer or Gnostic refered to as a "believer", even IF they were "born again" and later left the community after falling under error of a false teacher. We see it in Jude, 2 Peter, Pastorals, and 1 John. These later writings show a distinct flavor to consolidate vs. opposing alternative Christian doxologies (vs. what some Catholics think, there WERE alternative Christian communities, "seperated brothers", if you will, since the beginning of the Church). In my opinion, this is what led the Church to move to a monarchial episcopate as the authoritative model of the Church (the Pastorals clearly show that) - the need to maintain orthodoxy was much easier with one man "in charge", the bishop. In time, this led to a falling away of the parallel structure in Judaism, the council of elders/presbyters.

In summary, Church history seems to speak strongly against heterodoxy Christians, even in the Bible. I am not so certain that they would consider these "outsiders" as "Church", if we define Church as the "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic". It is these musings that led me to the Catholic Church - and there are no Eastern Catholic Churches here, so I am a Catholic of the Roman rite now...

Joe, you and I have the same scriptures, sans what we call the Apocrypha; we disagree on some of it's interpretation and how much of oral tradition should be placed above Scripture, if any. The Pharisees knew scripture and taught oral tradition and Jesus clearly showed them where their traditions were wrong in many cases, most cases.

I agree that NO tradition is to be placed above Scriptures. Only someone ignorant of the Church Fathers would deny that the Church has always been Prima Scriptura. We believe our doctrines are found within the Bible, implicitly or explicitly. It is impossible to place ANY instrument above Scriptures. I believe the problem is forgetting how our ancestors read the same Scriptures (I will not consider the Catholic OT, for now!) Anyone would agree that a book read incorrectly doesn't help as it should. As such, men disagree with what the Bible says because we tend to forget how the original Christians read that book that they wrote. We forget the living body that teaches us the meaning and intent of those holy words - if we toss aside the Church.

I believe Christ's intent on "traditions" were things that led people FROM GOD. Traditions are only bad when they lead people away from God. I am befuddled as to why God would be upset with, say, the rosary, if it moves people to contemplate Jesus and His life and to strive to follow Him, even the footsteps of Mary, the first in the NT to trust God completely. It is not my favorite devotional, but I do not see the reason for getting rid of it because the rosary is not mentioned in Scriptures! To me, Vic, Korban is an example of "tradition of men" that Christ attacked. You are certainly aware that it bypasses the need to fulfill the 4th commandment.

I am not attacking your faith - just trying to show my faith and the reasons why we Catholics hold to it. I have found better understanding of each other helps to eliminate distrust and hatred. We may still disagree, but at least we should respect the other. Knoweldge of the other side can help with that. I continue to enjoy Christianforums because there are a number of open "separated brothers", willing to hear the other side, yet maintaining their own beliefs. Too many other people are more willing to condemn, not wanting to know the other point for fear of "converting to falsehood". I tire of CARM. All it is there is "Catholics are wrong", like a parrot, without even listening or providing any evidence for their opinions. It is frustrating to intelligent conversation.

My thoughts, which are not infallible!

Regards

 

[Free]

Further exploration will make this "orthodoxy" more narrow, as Catholics of the second century understood it.

What about the Catholics of 1054?

 

[mutzrein]

I've heard it said that God loves the sinner but not the sin.

I wonder if He makes any distinction regarding Catholics?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I've heard it said that God loves the sinner but not the sin.

I wonder if He makes any distinction regarding Catholics?

No, except that we got the nicest spots reserved for us in heaven. LOL.

Seriously though, what are you saying.. ....?

 

[francisdesales]

Further exploration will make this "orthodoxy" more narrow, as Catholics of the second century understood it.

What about the Catholics of 1054?

what are you asking of me? The Great Schism was largely over cultural and political issues, not theological.

Regards

 

[Righteousone]

They weren't Catholic but Orthodox who broke away from the Catholic church in 1054.

 

[mutzrein]

I've heard it said that God loves the sinner but not the sin.

I wonder if He makes any distinction regarding Catholics?

No, except that we got the nicest spots reserved for us in heaven. LOL.

Seriously though, what are you saying.. ....?

If God is no respecter of persons, should we be?