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stray bullet
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cj said:What absolutely pathetic speaking.
In love,
cj
When you actually want to approach someone with love and treating them in the same mannor Christ did, let me know and I'll talk to you.
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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cj said:What absolutely pathetic speaking.
In love,
cj
stray bullet said:When you actually want to approach someone with love and treating them in the same mannor Christ did, let me know and I'll talk to you.
Thessalonian said:In 1054, offically, the Roman Catholic Church by the declaration that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father "and the Son" seperated themselves from the Church in its confession the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. This is your demonic possession for why would anyone change the words of Jesus Christ unless possessed? For 600 year the Roman Catholic Church confessed the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father then they changed this without full agreement of the Church. The Roman Church broke away from the Church in 1054 ad.
Nonsense. The Orthodox Church separated from the papacy of which the Bible says "the gates of hell shall not prevail". You believe there is some sort of a disconnect in the trinity by which it does not proceed from the Son? They didn't need the full agreement by the way. The Pope is infallible in faith and morals. You should have submitted to Rome. By the way it is not contradictory to say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the father. Then to say the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. The second is more complete.
: :
Orthodox Christian said:Thessalonian said:One of the obstacles to reconciliation is that we have people on both sides taking a sort of Donatist position: "those people walked away, why should we restore them? Away with them."
And, much like that particular rebellion, we will have hierarchs who will have to discipline the super-rigorists who would stand in the way of reconciliation.
I think it appropriate for Catholic and Orthodox laity to allow their respective hierarchs to work through differences with our schismated brethren in the East, West, and among the non-Chalcedonian believers
James
Thessalonian said:fiat said:My brothers,
It does very little good to argue over what seperates us. Our Faith, since the time of the apostles, has never been about personal opinion. Rather we are asked to submit to the authority of the Church. The leaders of the East and West are working towards reunion...let's support our shepherds with prayer. May God, through the intercession of the Theotokos, grant us speedy reconciliation as Christ is truly Present among us.
In Him-
Elizabeth
Qualified Amen. I do not degree that theological debates are of little value among the laity. But I am all for the issues being resolved and when the East submits to the Papacy, that will happen. The other issues I think are minor compared to that. Until then, it's not going to happen. The Catholic Church would have to go back on all of Vatican I and II Lumen Gentium in order to go to the patriarchy of Orthodoxy. It would have to reject the already declared infallible canons of Vatican I concerning Papal infalliblity. This just isn't going to happen. It is not in line with scripture that it should.
That said I am all in favor of resolving these things and fully support the efforts on both sides.
Blessing
Orthodox Christian said:[quote="Soma-Sight":860b0]The Kingdom grows by attraction.
Oh, you can get people to sign pledge cards if you scare them with hell and then give them the easy out (just say a prayer and join us, and avoid inifinite jail time). You can also build membership with slick preaching gifts and/or flashy media presentations. But neither of these build the household.
And both alienate those who are not compelled by either, those who are looking for the genuine article.
[/quote:860b0]I've heard this saying attributed to St Francis:Soma Sight said:Last night the monk was explaining how Assisi used to see Christ in ALL THINGS. His blood on the roses, his tears in the rain, his cross in the trees, etc.... That is awesome and I am surprised that I have never heard that kind of preaching before and it made my heart glad!
"Preach the gospel at all times, and if necessary, use words." or some variant thereof.
cj said:Funny isn't it,..... God gives each man breath to live and receive Him as eternal life, but the majority pay no heed to this, they have no appreciation for this great mercy and grace of the Creator.
But OC would have us believe that human kindness and human love shown towards an unbeliever will do the job.
Mathetes said:cj said:Funny isn't it,..... God gives each man breath to live and receive Him as eternal life, but the majority pay no heed to this, they have no appreciation for this great mercy and grace of the Creator.
But OC would have us believe that human kindness and human love shown towards an unbeliever will do the job.
It truly stretches the imagination, doesn't it? Not to mention it actually is nothing more than a display of human arrogance over the Creator. I mean, think of it: the sheer power of mere mortals to take that depraved human heart and work in it the mighty miracle required to transform it into a heart that is willing to submit to God! And all that from people whose hearts are just as depraved! Wow, human beings really are something. I mean, with this amazing power to convert the unregenerate human heart, why do we need the Holy Spirit at all? (This is a rhetorical question -- we need the Holy Spirit desperately!)
Orthodox Christian said:Mathetes said:cj said:Funny isn't it,..... God gives each man breath to live and receive Him as eternal life, but the majority pay no heed to this, they have no appreciation for this great mercy and grace of the Creator.
But OC would have us believe that human kindness and human love shown towards an unbeliever will do the job.
It truly stretches the imagination, doesn't it? Not to mention it actually is nothing more than a display of human arrogance over the Creator. I mean, think of it: the sheer power of mere mortals to take that depraved human heart and work in it the mighty miracle required to transform it into a heart that is willing to submit to God! And all that from people whose hearts are just as depraved! Wow, human beings really are something. I mean, with this amazing power to convert the unregenerate human heart, why do we need the Holy Spirit at all? (This is a rhetorical question -- we need the Holy Spirit desperately!)
It makes little sense for you to reply to CJ's distortion of my post. Nowhere in my posting will one find that I have denied the necessity of the Holy Spirit in the action of salvation.
I simply I have noted that kindness and mercy make people receptive to hear what one has to say. My comments were made within the context of a lengthy and sometimes heated debate.
I stand by the St Francis quote- when necessary, use words. He never said never use words- he simply placed the first priority first.
That being said, how is it less "arrogant" to think words coming from a human mouth (ie, preaching) is any more effective than kindness extended to an enemy?
Hear me well: We are co-laborers with God. Ultimately, it is His power that does it all, but make no mistake- He speaks through human kindness.
It may be irrelevant to you, but since it has my name attached to it, it is relevant to me.Mathetes said:Orthodox Christian said:Mathetes said:cj said:Funny isn't it,..... God gives each man breath to live and receive Him as eternal life, but the majority pay no heed to this, they have no appreciation for this great mercy and grace of the Creator.
But OC would have us believe that human kindness and human love shown towards an unbeliever will do the job.
It truly stretches the imagination, doesn't it? Not to mention it actually is nothing more than a display of human arrogance over the Creator. I mean, think of it: the sheer power of mere mortals to take that depraved human heart and work in it the mighty miracle required to transform it into a heart that is willing to submit to God! And all that from people whose hearts are just as depraved! Wow, human beings really are something. I mean, with this amazing power to convert the unregenerate human heart, why do we need the Holy Spirit at all? (This is a rhetorical question -- we need the Holy Spirit desperately!)
It makes little sense for you to reply to CJ's distortion of my post. Nowhere in my posting will one find that I have denied the necessity of the Holy Spirit in the action of salvation.
What I was responding to was the truth behind CJ's criticism, i.e., there are people out there who hold to the view I mentioned. Whether you actually hold that view is really irrelevant.
Nonsense. Unless they have an angelic herald, they are going to be hearing the gospel from you/me.Mathetes said:I simply I have noted that kindness and mercy make people receptive to hear what one has to say. My comments were made within the context of a lengthy and sometimes heated debate.
They may make people more receptive to YOU, but they won't make people any more receptive to GOD or the gospel than if you were not to use kindness and mercy.
In point of fact, that is often the case. I do not share in your Augustinian/Calvinist view of the utter depravity of man.Mathetes said:I'm not advocating unfriendliness and coldness, so please don't misunderstand me. What I'm against is the idea that our acts of kindness can actually make a person receptive to the gospel message. They can't, and they never will be able to. If you think they can, you must think the human heart is not all that bad, requiring mere kindness to soften it up to the gospel message.
Since you're stumping for Calvin, where does prevenient grace fit in your scheme of kicking and screaming until the hour of awakening?Mathetes said:The truth, however, is that the human heart, apart from the grace of God and the Holy Spirit, is fighting tooth and nail against the authority of God and will never, never, NEVER submit to God unless regenerated.
The third option is that your opening premise was argle bargle, and I'm neither arrogant nor ignorant.Mathetes said:Therefore, you either are arrogant enough to think that you can achieve something that only the Holy Spirit can do, OR you terribly underestimate the extent of human depravity and man's hostility toward God.
People who are not steeped in and hypnotized by Reformed theology can see for themselves that people are at various places. Some are utterly depraved, given over to depravity, as Paul said. Some are coming to their senses. Some, like the Centurion or the Syro-Phoenician woman, were looking for the Kingdom, and needed to see someone who was doing good works (Jesus). Others, like the Magi, were ernestly seeking God, and found Him.Mathetes said:What all this ultimately boils down to is the simple question of how you view the natural man, i.e., what your doctrine of man is. If you hold to the premise that the natural man is not really all that bad and not completely fallen, then of course the logical conclusion to make is that all he/she needs is some kindness to make that already soft heart just a bit more receptive.
I don't hold that position, and find it ridiculous in the extreme.Mathetes said:On the other hand, if you hold to the premise that human nature is totally depraved -- fallen in mind, heart, and will -- and that there is no part of human nature left untainted by the fall, then the logical conclusion will be that nothing short of divine intervention and divine grace will change fallen man.
You still think preaching is words and faith is intellectual belief. Actions are words. In point of fact the bible in fact demonstrates this clearly- regarding the wife of an unbelieving husband.Mathetes said:I stand by the St Francis quote- when necessary, use words. He never said never use words- he simply placed the first priority first.
Francis was dreadfully wrong. He may have been a godly man, but he was dead wrong on this. His saying allows for the possibility that someone could be saved apart from the word of God, making the verbal teaching/preaching of the gospel merely an option rather than a necessity. But the Bible never presents such a view of gospel preaching.
1 Peter 3:1
In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any {of them} are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives,
Mathetes said:That being said, how is it less "arrogant" to think words coming from a human mouth (ie, preaching) is any more effective than kindness extended to an enemy?
Because those words are preaching the gospel of Christ, which is the power of God for salvation. Therefore, those words do not involve a mere human endeavor (act of kindness) done in human strength. To preach the gospel is to use the very method that God has ordained for evangelism. Not to preach it, however, is to neglect using a necessary, indispensable tool.
You're kidding, right?Mathetes said:Hear me well: We are co-laborers with God. Ultimately, it is His power that does it all, but make no mistake- He speaks through human kindness.
Where does the Bible support this?
Thanks for your response. I have the same response to the doctrine of utter depravity as I do to the doctrine of Arius as I do to modalism as I do to cessationism etc- heresy is heresy.Mathetes said:Orthodox Christian,
I'm sure you have some strong points to make, but I really see no point in discussing this with you unless you come to grips with the reasons why you responded the way you have. Obviously from your choice of words and your tone, what I have said rubs you the wrong way.
What I think would be more profitable for you to do at this time is to look deep inside yourself and honestly answer the question, "Why does the doctrine of total depravity disturb me so much?" I don't urge you to do this because you disagree with me; rather I ask you to do this because it seems strongly evident that total depravity strikes at a sensitive chord deep within you, which leads me to believe that all the debating in the world won't help you if the issue is something spiritual inside of you that I have no power over.
However, if you feel that you can continue this discussion without resorting to false insinuations (I'm not even going to take the time to point them out to you: If you aren't aware of them, all the more reason for you to step back from this discussion and examine yourself), then I would be happy to begin a lengthy dialogue on this issue. (Believe me, I have done so many times in the past.)
Mathetes
Orthodox Christian said:It makes little sense for you to reply to CJ's distortion of my post.
Orthodox Christian said:Nowhere in my posting will one find that I have denied the necessity of the Holy Spirit in the action of salvation. I simply I have noted that kindness and mercy make people receptive to hear what one has to say. My comments were made within the context of a lengthy and sometimes heated debate.
Orthodox Christian said:I stand by the St Francis quote- when necessary, use words. He never said never use words- he simply placed the first priority first.
Orthodox Christian said:That being said, how is it less "arrogant" to think words coming from a human mouth (ie, preaching) is any more effective than kindness extended to an enemy?
Orthodox Christian said:Hear me well: We are co-laborers with God. Ultimately, it is His power that does it all, but make no mistake- He speaks through human kindness.
Orthodox Christian said:Someone else speaks through cruelty- which often passes itself off as passion for truth.
cj said:Orthodox Christian said:It makes little sense for you to reply to CJ's distortion of my post.
No OC, I distorted nothing of your speaking, only laid it out in plain sight for all to see. Something I will continue to do no matter how you attempt to color it.
That's distortion of what I said, pure and simple. As I stated below...But OC would have us believe that human kindness and human love shown towards an unbeliever will do the job.
And there you have it.Orthodox Christian said:Nowhere in my posting will one find that I have denied the necessity of the Holy Spirit in the action of salvation. I simply I have noted that kindness and mercy make people receptive to hear what one has to say. My comments were made within the context of a lengthy and sometimes heated debate.
If you are going to use God's actions to justify your own, you may burn people with fire for blasphemy, dash their children into the rocks for belonging to a certain tribe,and just about anything else that you desire.CJ said:".... kindness and mercy make people receptive to hear what one has to say."
We heard you OC, but better we hear the truth of the bible and stick to it.
When God demolished Job family and holdings, in the eyes of "people" was God expressing kindness and mercy?
Abundantly. His harsh words were reserved for the Pharisees.CJ said:And Jesus, in the eyes of "people" was He expressing kindness and mercy when He came to men?
Says the one who whitewashes self-righteousness and angry words and calls it gospelCJ said:You are so desperate to add your humanity to God's work that it causes you to speak half-truths, calling them truth.
Agreed- but I have not advocated for doing good works apart from grace, so this is irrelevant (a strawman, actually).CJ said:Orthodox Christian said:Hear me well: We are co-laborers with God. Ultimately, it is His power that does it all, but make no mistake- He speaks through human kindness.
Jesus told us that God can speak through stones on the side of the road.
God speaks OC, through whatever He decides in His wisdom is what He needs to speak through. Expressing human kindness does not equate to one co-laboring with God, this is the lie of the enemy, taugh by apostate institutions.
High human morals means nothing if not out of a divine source.
CJ said:Orthodox Christian said:Someone else speaks through cruelty- which often passes itself off as passion for truth.
Another pathetic attempt to slander,..... meaningless tripe on your part.
Orthodox Christian said:In point of fact, that is often the case. I do not share in your Augustinian/Calvinist view of the utter depravity of man.
Orthodox Christian said:Are you suggesting that all people up to the moment of their metaoinia (repentance) are utterly in rebellion against God? If so, explain Zaccheus to me. What state was he when he was climbing the tree to see Jesus: utterly depraved, saved, or somewhere in between?
Orthodox Christian said:........ Some are utterly depraved, given over to depravity, as Paul said. Some are coming to their senses. Some, like the Centurion or the Syro-Phoenician woman, were looking for the Kingdom, and needed to see someone who was doing good works (Jesus). Others, like the Magi, were ernestly seeking God, and found Him.
Orthodox Christian said:.Of course, in each of these cases, the grace of God was operating in their lives, moving them towards Him. Like people in a long, dark passage, they needed light to guide them where they fully intended to go.
Orthodox Christian said:Others despise the light.
Orthodox Christian said:.No, the idea that everyone except the people in your pews is fighting God is demonstrably wrong.
Orthodox Christian said:I don't hold that position, and find it ridiculous in the extreme.
Were all the popes prior to 1054 ad infallible confessing that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father?
How can the pope before 1054ad be infallible confessing one God then be infallible confessing a god that is totally different than the one previously?
Seems the Popes prior to 1054 ad were sorely mistaken and could not have been infallible confessing the error of procession from the Father alone.
Orthodox Christian said:Thanks for your response. I have the same response to the doctrine of utter depravity as I do to the doctrine of Arius as I do to modalism as I do to cessationism etc- heresy is heresy.
I'm quite certain that taking exception to your Reformed doctrine is not an indicator that there is something spiritually wrong in me. Let's just not go there, k?
It would be inappropriate to hold a full blown discussion of 'utter depravity' on this thread, as it would be a diversion from the topic.
'Snip,' as you refer to it, is in the eye of the beholder. From where I stand, I've detected snip and snap in your posts, but this is of no consequence. I am sorry if you have taken my terse and blunt statements as vitriolic in nature. I assure you, I hold no animosity towards you.Mathetes said:Orthodox Christian said:Thanks for your response. I have the same response to the doctrine of utter depravity as I do to the doctrine of Arius as I do to modalism as I do to cessationism etc- heresy is heresy.
Then let's open the Bible together and explore this issue to see just exactly what is the heresy and what is not, shall we?
And, btw, I did detect a bit of snip in your post that really cannot be explained merely by the fact that you hate heresy. I'm willing to explore this issue with you, but please keep this in mind for the future.
Then feel free to keep such suspicions to yourself when the topic is, in fact, Reformed theology.Mathetes said:I'm quite certain that taking exception to your Reformed doctrine is not an indicator that there is something spiritually wrong in me. Let's just not go there, k?
I knew you were going to come back with this; that's why in my post I said:
"I don't urge you to do this because you disagree with me; rather I ask you to do this because it seems strongly evident that total depravity strikes at a sensitive chord deep within you, which leads me to believe that all the debating in the world won't help you if the issue is something spiritual inside of you that I have no power over."
My suspicions in this matter have nothing whatsoever to do with your disagreements with Reformed theology.
Feel free to launch a discussion over in theology- I will join on condition that further attempted inroads to my affective state are not attempted in the process.Mathetes said:It would be inappropriate to hold a full blown discussion of 'utter depravity' on this thread, as it would be a diversion from the topic.
Then I would be happy to start another thread or correspond privately via email. Let me know what you'd like. I look forward to an extensive, fruitful discussion.
Orthodox Christian said:Feel free to launch a discussion over in theology- I will join on condition that further attempted inroads to my affective state are not attempted in the process.
Thx
James
Mathetes said:Orthodox Christian said:Feel free to launch a discussion over in theology- I will join on condition that further attempted inroads to my affective state are not attempted in the process.
Thx
James
I don't know, James. Based on your response, I suspect you're still in denial, so I'll think about it.