I am starting to REALLY like the Catholics (OC plz read)

[Soma-Sight]

Whether you intended that to be funny or not, it was...the ironic sort of funny. Well done.

Sometimes I think you get burned more than me OC,

and your orthodox!

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Whether you intended that to be funny or not, it was...the ironic sort of funny. Well done.

Sometimes I think you get burned more than me OC,

and your orthodox!

I do it to myself, Soma, contradicting Fundamentalists in their own house. It's like goose-stepping through a yard full of rakes.

Look, the spirit of denial has broken.
:

 

[Orthodoxy]

James,

And this is the point: Repentance begins with each individual. We do not need pharasaical, fault-finding Fundies flaming everyone who isn't part of their Donatist cult. Rather, every Christian of every denomination/sect needs to examine themselves, and let God purify them (me). There is a world full of precious individuals at stake.

"If my people, who call themselves by Name will humble themselves and pray and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven...."

Nothing there about pointing out the faults or sins of others. The finger of God is pointed at you, and me.

Very Good. However, I submit the heterodox world cannot be humble because they will not "obey and submit to those in authority over them". My experiance in the heterodox faith was one of no accountability. How can one examine their own wicked heart? What does one examine their wicked hearts with? We simply cannot examine our own hearts with any success. This is why the Church offers the sacrement of Confession and spiritual fathering.

My point is heterodox have no accountability thus the heterodox cannot repent because the heterodox cannot truely examine one self. There is no guidance, no spiritual fathering.

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse Malachi 4:6.

I believe this verse shows us an inner drawing of God towards fathering and accountability truely found in each man that seeks after God.

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

oops

 

[Orthodoxy]

oops

 

[Orthodoxy]

oops it appears I am impatient with my SLOW computer!

 

[Orthodoxy]

Were all the popes prior to 1054 ad infallible confessing that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father?

Yes.

[quote:910da]How can the pope before 1054ad be infallible confessing one God then be infallible confessing a god that is totally different than the one previously?

Find me one that says that the Holy Spirit does not proceed from the Son? ONE! If I say that you can speak, is it a contradiction that I can speak as well? This is silly.

Seems the Popes prior to 1054 ad were sorely mistaken and could not have been infallible confessing the error of procession from the Father alone.

Your sounding like a protestant now. Can you tell me where in the bible it says that the Holy Spirit proceeds from "the Father alone"? Can you show me where any Pope before 1054 said that the Holy Spirit Proceeds from "the Father alone". Can you show me a decree of a council that says the Holy Spirit proceeds from "the Father alone".

Orthodoxy[/quote:910da][/quote]


Jesus said, But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which PROCEEDTH from the Father, he shall testify of me. John 15:26

"Whom I (Jesus) will send unto you "FROM THE FATHER"."

All GOOD things come from the Father of Lights James 1:17

What part of "all" dont you understand? This does not some how make the HS and the Son subordinate to the Father only that the Origin of the divine nature proceeds from the Father. Why is that so diffucult to understand? Is not the Father the head of Christ?

Jesus Christ is eternally "Begotten of the Father". The begotteness of the Son defines to the Church the Son's "divine nature". John 1:14, 18.

The Holy Spirit's "procession" defines to the Church the Holy Spirit's "divine nature".

I do not need to show a verse that Jesus specifically says the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son or does not proceed from the Son because He made it plain the Father is the Originator of all good gifts.

The Holy Spirit that testifies of the Son of God proceeds from the Father of Jesus Christ.

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodox Christian]

James,

And this is the point: Repentance begins with each individual. We do not need pharasaical, fault-finding Fundies flaming everyone who isn't part of their Donatist cult. Rather, every Christian of every denomination/sect needs to examine themselves, and let God purify them (me). There is a world full of precious individuals at stake.

"If my people, who call themselves by Name will humble themselves and pray and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven...."

Nothing there about pointing out the faults or sins of others. The finger of God is pointed at you, and me.

Very Good. However, I submit the heterodox world cannot be humble because they will not "obey and submit to those in authority over them". My experiance in the heterodox faith was one of no accountability. How can one examine their own wicked heart? What does one examine their wicked hearts with? We simply cannot examine our own hearts with any success. This is why the Church offers the sacrement of Confession and spiritual fathering.

I agree with you wholeheartedly- with this caveat: There are many who are seeking God with their whole heart, and they have found themselves in the Protestant churches. Many, many of these have no clue that there even is a Holy Orthodox Church, either because we have not made ourselves known, or because some of our brethren have made a poor example of Orthodoxy by exhibiting it as an ethnic thing.

I also find this concept of examining one's self apart from the accountability of spiritual fathering and confession absolutely unbiblical and impossible.

My point is heterodox have no accountability thus the heterodox cannot repent because the heterodox cannot truely examine one self. There is no guidance, no spiritual fathering.

Many Protestants attempt to ameliorate this situation by forming men's accountability groups and seeking mentors. This is a step in the right direction, in my opinion- so why not take the whole walk, rather than just the step?
The fathers and mothers of the Church knew human nature, knew the Word of God, and knew what Jesus has taught through His holy Apostles. In their wisdom, with the direction of the Holy Spirit, they bequeathed to us the sacramental and liturgical tradition of the Orthodox faith. If one was to faithfully attend liturgy and apply oneself to the disciplines of prayer, fasting, scripture, charity, and service, one would be indeed discipled by the Master.

On the other hand, if one just does 'as the Spirit leads,' one tends to avoid the things that bring growth and truth- and in the end, remain unchanged.

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse Malachi 4:6.

My brother, I want to stand in the marketplace and shout this verse. The holy Apostle Paul lamented in his day that there 10,000 talking head bible teachers, but not many fathers. I wonder what he would write in our day? There are 18 zillion bible mumblers and next to no fathers?

Being a son of God involves a whole lot more than just gnosis of the scripture.

This is the day for the children of God to turn their hearts to the fathers!! This is the day for the fathers to rise to the occasion!! May every returning son find a father who kisses them on the cheek, rather than a brother who resents their welcome.

To those outside the Orthodox faith, I say "come and see." Taste and see that the Lord is good.

I believe this verse shows us an inner drawing of God towards fathering and accountability truely found in each man that seeks after God.

Orthodoxy

Amen, amen.

warmly, OC


On the anniversary of the falling asleep in the Lord of my son Isaiah in 1992- may his memory be eternal.
Iakovos

 

[Orthodoxy]

My Brother,

I agree with you wholeheartedly- with this caveat: There are many who are seeking God with their whole heart, and they have found themselves in the Protestant churches. Many, many of these have no clue that there even is a Holy Orthodox Church, either because we have not made ourselves known, or because some of our brethren have made a poor example of Orthodoxy by exhibiting it as an ethnic thing.

I also find this concept of examining one's self apart from the accountability of spiritual fathering and confession absolutely unbiblical and impossible.

It is good to agree. I find love conquers the ethnic divisions in the Church by personal experiance. We must love each other beyond our ethnic origins and customs. I do not nor will I condemn a protestant nor a roman catholic as "unsaved" although they understand being a "member" of the body saves. My stance is we worship a different Jesus. When I was a protestant I remember it being the utmost importance that we worshiped the "real Jesus" however when I found out "my Jesus" was an imposter suddenly the protest tells me we all worship the same one just differently. This is what I see in the heterodox world... a world that compromises the identify of Jesus Christ for a "oneness" minded set. I mind that says " I have my Jesus, you have your Jesus. There is only one thus we both worship Him just in a different manner and custom. We know as orthodox christians this is not the case. On a personal note I believe the "Filioque" defines the Holy Spirit which is testifying of Jesus Christ. This error is believed by the heterodox for Luther never rebeled against this heresy that split the Roman Church off from the Christian Faith found in the Orthodox Church. Many protestant main line groups confess the Roman Catholic creed of 1054 ad and not the Orthodox Confession understood for 1700 years! I believe the protestant faith has been duped by the Roman faith to believe the orthodox split the Church in rebellion to the "filioque" addition, in this they hate us with the passion they hate the Roman Church. It is Rome that has perpitrated this deception. I believe this is the great delusion we are told about in the bible. The Roman Catholic Church is the veil over the face of God seen in the Holy Orthodox Church. God is using the Roman Church as He used a veil to hide the face of His servant Moses from the people. A veil over the face of Joesph from his brothers, for if they could see they would realize they are brothers not beggers.

Many Protestants attempt to ameliorate this situation by forming men's accountability groups and seeking mentors. This is a step in the right direction, in my opinion- so why not take the whole walk, rather than just the step?

The heterodox want to do what they see the Father doing it appears they just dont know how. I see now the protestant "born again" is a birth into a world that has no father, no mother, orphans all, rudderless boats in a puddle next to a bottomless ocean.

The fathers and mothers of the Church knew human nature, knew the Word of God, and knew what Jesus has taught through His holy Apostles. In their wisdom, with the direction of the Holy Spirit, they bequeathed to us the sacramental and liturgical tradition of the Orthodox faith. If one was to faithfully attend liturgy and apply oneself to the disciplines of prayer, fasting, scripture, charity, and service, one would be indeed discipled by the Master.

Amen and in this we are commanded to "visit the ophans and the widows".

On the other hand, if one just does 'as the Spirit leads,' one tends to avoid the things that bring growth and truth- and in the end, remain unchanged.

Which brings me to this point:

John 21:18, Jesus said to Peter, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

Here we have Jesus telling Peter by the Holy Spirit that when he was young in the spirit, drinking the milk of the word, he believed and went his own way, seeking his own desires and passions, leaning on his own understanding, demanding his own way, a rebel, a protester, Peter's youth took him over in passions. But here Jesus is telling Peter that when he grows old in the word, when he matures, that he would no longer seek his own way but submit to authority in the Church, the community of God, no longer seeking his own way, his own passions, no longer believing the things of God his way and in his own understanding. Here, I believe, we see to grow in Christ and to be fed on the meat of God one must submit and obey the authority given by Jesus Christ to His Church. We simply cannot lead ourselves in the Kingdom of God, a Christian to be honest and wise must have the leadership and authority of the Church to guide them. Submission and obediance to authority are a true sign of maturity in Christ.

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse Malachi 4:6.

My brother, I want to stand in the marketplace and shout this verse. The holy Apostle Paul lamented in his day that there 10,000 talking head bible teachers, but not many fathers. I wonder what he would write in our day? There are 18 zillion bible mumblers and next to no fathers?

Being a son of God involves a whole lot more than just gnosis of the scripture.

This is the day for the children of God to turn their hearts to the fathers!!

This is the day for the fathers to rise to the occasion!! May every returning son find a father who kisses them on the cheek, rather than a brother who resents their welcome.

Glory to God! AGREEMENT! I believe this is the calling of God to all Son who claim Jesus Christ as thier King and God. The call is to fathering found in the Holy Orthodox Church. We do not speak of ourselfs but Christ Jesus and His fulness. Ephesians 1:22-23.

To those outside the Orthodox faith, I say "come and see." Taste and see that the Lord is good.

I believe this verse shows us an inner drawing of God towards fathering and accountability truely found in each man that seeks after God.

Amen, amen.

This is my prayer also that everyone might find themselves humbled on the door steps of an Orthodox Church.


[quote:9c9a7]On the anniversary of the falling asleep in the Lord of my son Isaiah in 1992- may his memory be eternal.
Iakovos

[/quote:9c9a7]

Memory Eternal my brother,

Orthodoxy

 

[zwergel88]

I have been watching quite a bit of EWTN lately and the Franciscan (I think that is spelled right) monks that come on late at night....

I like the fact that there preaching style is more about trying to understand different points of view and SHARING the Gospel message rather than FORCING it down peoples throats....

Plus the Orthodox and Catholic systems are the oldest Churches and there have been many Holy men, Saints and mystics like Augustine and the like which are very inspirational for me personally!

Last night the monk was explaining how Assisi used to see Christ in ALL THINGS. His blood on the roses, his tears in the rain, his cross in the trees, etc.... That is awesome and I am surprised that I have never heard that kind of preaching before and it made my heart glad!

Great, I'm glad that you like EWTN. I think it's pretty cool myself. Which of the Franciscans where you watching. My favorite show on EWTN, "Life on the Rock" has Franciscan priests and brothers.

You mentioned St. Augustine, have you ever read "Confessions" by St. Augustine? I am reading it right now, it is very beautiful.

Glad to find another person who likes EWTN. EWTN rocks!!! :D :wink:

 

[stovebolts]

OC and Orthodoxy...

I am simply amazed... Please know that I respect your knowledge and your walk with our Lord. Also know that I call you Brother, and not enemy.

That being said... I'd like to touch base on a few things that have been said in regard to Peter, if I may be so obliged.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto you, That you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it.

Who builds His Church? It is Him who builds... and it is Him who protects, not Peter.
(side note, here's some historical value)

And I believe Peter understood this.
2 Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

It is not of HIMSELF, but Through God and Jesus! We do not get our knowledge from ourselves let alone the Church, we receive it from God for it is all in God's Grace... and this Grace, brings about peace.

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power has given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who has called us to glory and virtue:

I'd like to stop and look at this verse a tad differently than most might expect. Note, Peter is saying that His divine power gives us all things that pertain to life! Not just Godliness, but Life itself! I've said it before, I'll say it again. Sin and suffering is no accident.
Now, did we, you, I come to this knowledge on our own? Certainly not for we were CALLED... and each of us has a different calling... a different role... and we as children of God, brothers and sister IN Christ make up the body of Christ.

For any prot to claim ownership of this 'jesus' or the orthodox, catholic, mormon etc to do the same, is to limit Christ and chimerically elevate ones sense of piety and in doing so, fails to appreciate the fullness of God and the wonderful mysteries fullfilled through His Son.

2 Peter 1:4 By which are given unto us exceedingly great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Great and precious promises... so simple, yet so misunderstood. For it is through the Promise that God had made with Abraham.. Moses... Noah... and yes, YOU and I... that His son was slain... and it was through that act, that God has shown us that he is a God that keeps his promise. From this aspect, we can begin to see how divine God's true nature is.
But what is this lust that is spoken about? I believe (and I'm far from knowing greek), but I believe that the greek word used for lust here is
epipotheô which, simply put is to yearn after.

So, I beg the question, do you yearn after Christ, or do you yearn after your tradition? Do you yearn that other know Christ, or the Orthodox tradition? Tradition in and of itself is not a bad thing for we are commanded to keep the traditions that we have been taught (2 Thessalonians 3:6) but in all due respect, we must keep in mind that God does work in mysterious ways... 1 Peter 1:18 Since you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain manner of life received by tradition from your fathers;
and not from the traditions of the Church.

 

[Orthodoxy]

StoveBolts

I am simply amazed...

I have that effect on people.

Please know that I respect your knowledge and your walk with our Lord.

But.....

Also know that I call you Brother, and not enemy.

But..... I have no problem calling those that preach a different Jesus Christ the enemy. We are called to love our enemy so know this, The Church loves you.

all buts aside.....

That being said... I'd like to touch base on a few things that have been said in regard to Peter, if I may be so obliged.

You have a problem with Peter? That does not amaze me. Do you think Peter was a Roman Catholic? Is that your problem?

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto you, That you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it.

Who builds His Church? It is Him who builds... and it is Him who protects, not Peter.

Jesus builds His Church on the confession stated by Peter in the verse you dont quote.

"I will build my Church". Note also that the "gates of hades will not prevail" umm gates can move to prevail against teh Church? Hardly, seems the Church is offensive and the gates are offended. Does this not mean the Church Jesus is building is unfailing and since the Church is the "body of Christ" then it is also unchanging in essance and nature since Jesus is unchanging. Interesting, How could the Church have gates prevailing against it in such a way that the Church needs a "reformation"? Does not the word "reform" mean a failure to some extent? Jesus the failure? umm

I submit the Church has not failed and historically we can see the Holy Orthodox Church is this unfailing and unchanging Church Jesus Christ spoke of, for even the Muslims, Roman Catholics and Stalin could not defeat the His Church. Even protestant bombs in Kosovo will not defeat the Church.

I will not bash Peter only to say the servant of all will be the leader of the Church according to foot cleaning proticall. You are the one with the "peter complex" not the Church. Why do you think so little of Peter?

It is not of HIMSELF, but Through God and Jesus! We do not get our knowledge from ourselves let alone the Church, we receive it from God for it is all in God's Grace... and this Grace, brings about peace.

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power has given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who has called us to glory and virtue:

Excuse me ... the us and the our is the Church. Peter is speaking to the Church not those that rebel and protest against the Church. You understand membership means something obviously or you would not be so offended. Seems you have a liberal enterance procedure. What gets ya into heaven? Just saying the name Jesus Christ? Believing on His name yet no one believes the same things about the same person as noted on this board? Believe is an interesting word that has a nebulas meaning in the reformation.

Who is the US? The Church defines who is and who is not a member of the Church. No man is self declared a Christian. Jesus gave full authority to the Church in saying "tell it to the Church". According to the Scripture the Church contains the manifold wisdom of God Ephesians 3:10, 14-15. The Church is the "fulness of Him"Ephesians 1:22-23 Jesus Christ loves His Church and saves His Church Ephesians 5:23-25,32. Interesting those on the outside insist they are inside. Why do you want to be a Christian?

Why do you hate His Church? Why do protestant reformers insist the Church is a complete and utter failure in need of 20th century man to "revive" it? God died when?

I'd like to stop and look at this verse a tad differently than most might expect. Note, Peter is saying that His divine power gives us all things that pertain to life! Not just Godliness, but Life itself! I've said it before, I'll say it again. Sin and suffering is no accident.
Now, did we, you, I come to this knowledge on our own? Certainly not for we were CALLED... and each of us has a different calling... a different role... and we as children of God, brothers and sister IN Christ make up the body of Christ.

So you have a right to preach something alien to the Church? You have the right to change doctrine and dogma that has been understood by the Church for 2000 years? Your calling can divide and take a "different role" preaching a different Jesus without any accountablity to what you preach? If you are truely my brother then you will listen to reason. Why did Jesus say "tell it to the Church" in issues pertaining to Church be it doctrine or sins if He meant tell it to a book or tell it to you (since heterodox think they personally are the Church of the Holy Spirit)? Matthew 18 if you cant find it. When Jesus was saying "you" in the bible (ie the Comforter will lead and guide "YOU") He is talking to a "group of men" a "common unity of believers". The Holy Spirit leads and guides the Church, if one is in disagreement with the Church then one disagrees with His Holy Spirit that fills the Church.

For any prot to claim ownership of this 'jesus' or the orthodox, catholic, mormon etc to do the same, is to limit Christ and chimerically elevate ones sense of piety and in doing so, fails to appreciate the fullness of God and the wonderful mysteries fullfilled through His Son.

Jesus takes ownership of Himself in His Body. Jesus Christ is very exclusive in that "He is the way". Jesus is very exclusive. Jesus has a Body on the Earth called "the Church". It says that someplace in the bible I am certain. Thus the Church has both a heavenly component and an earthly one. The Earthly Church is seen in the Holy Orthodox Church. What happens in the Orthodox Church liturgically happens in heaven eternally. The worship of the Orthodox Church is eternal worship. The Church is the fulness of Jesus Christ on the Earth. You however are free to ignore that and settle for part of the fulness and take your chances on the rest.

2 Peter 1:4 By which are given unto us exceedingly great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Great and precious promises... so simple, yet so misunderstood. For it is through the Promise that God had made with Abraham.. Moses... Noah... and yes, YOU and I... that His son was slain... and it was through that act, that God has shown us that he is a God that keeps his promise. From this aspect, we can begin to see how divine God's true nature is.
But what is this lust that is spoken about? I believe (and I'm far from knowing greek), but I believe that the greek word used for lust here is

No problem. God made promises to His Church. I agree. Who defines the Church? You? Me? No Jesus Christ defines His Church. If you bothered to investigate the Orthodox faith you would see Icons of the OT fathers in the Church. We honor those saints before us. The promise is the Holy Orthodox Church. Feel free to squander your inheritance if you truely are a son of God as you claim.

So, I beg the question, do you yearn after Christ, or do you yearn after your tradition?

One in the same for the Head of the Church is Christ. The mystery is you are trying to decapitate the Head and place Him on your own version of the Body. Frankenchrist.

Do you yearn that other know Christ, or the Orthodox tradition?

One in the same. For the Head, Jesus Christ and His body are one in the Same. When you see orthodoxy in its fulness, you see Jesus Christ. Orthodoxy is living the Life of Jesus Christ on the Earth. Life in Christ. That is what "traditions" are ... living His Life. What would Jesus do? see His Holy Traditions found in the Holy Orthodox Church.

Tradition in and of itself is not a bad thing for we are commanded to keep the traditions that we have been taught (2 Thessalonians 3:6) but in all due respect, we must keep in mind that God does work in mysterious ways...

Tell God all due respect for it is not me you are beening disrespectful to, but His traditions which you are not keeping. What BTW are the "traditions" you keep unfailing that are orally taught? Can you name a few please as a Christian? what Traditions of the Church have you been taught and thus commanded to keep. Just a few you keep since you appear to know they are "commands"?

ahh let me guess .... its a secret! Does God have a "mysterious decoder ring"? A secret traditional hand shake? All that is mysterious can be understood by that which has the "manifold wisdom of God", the Church. Nothing is hidden in the Church. Every question I have asked of my Orthodox Christian priest or research that which is spoken of the Church fathers has been answered to a suffient extent.

1 Peter 1:18 Since you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain manner of life received by tradition from your fathers;
and not from the traditions of the Church.

Excuse me. Who gave you authority to add "and not from the traditions of the Church" to the Scripture. I am certain adding to the words of the bible is a no no. By what authority do you have to change the bible? I call this feeble attempt protestant christian witchcraft. Feeble attempts using the bible to manipulate and decieve people. A sad thing. Do you understand that you are undermining the words of Jesus in Matthew 18 "tell it to the Church"? What does that verse tell me to call people like you that will not listen to the Church?

Define "traditions" please.

Jesus had no problem with the Traditions of His Father. There must be "good traditions" and "bad traditions" if Jesus is making such a stink about them. Can you name a few of those good traditions taught by Jesus to the Aposltes that you personally are commanded to holdfast and keep?

Then tell me please which traditions you condemn the Holy Orthodox Church which are deemed by you to be "bad"?

Thanks.

Orthodoxy

 

[stovebolts]

...

Wow... I think I got threw the first two paragraphs and decided to stop there...
My Friend, you really should learn not to assume as much as you do. But then again, we do find what we seek... and you have made it extreemly clear that you do not seek God's will in this matter, but your own abberated agenda.

Fear not, I love you anyway.

Your Brother in Christ,

Jeff

[/quote]

 

[Orthodox Christian]

OC and Orthodoxy...

I am simply amazed... Please know that I respect your knowledge and your walk with our Lord. Also know that I call you Brother, and not enemy.

That being said... I'd like to touch base on a few things that have been said in regard to Peter, if I may be so obliged.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto you, That you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it.

Who builds His Church? It is Him who builds... and it is Him who protects, not Peter.
(side note, here's some historical value)

Hello my friend:
it puzzles me why an undeniable truth-
that it all begins and ends with Jesus-
must be appended with "not." (as in not Peter, or not Stove Bolts)

The Head directs, and the Body labors. Paul referred to himself as a master builder. Of course he knew that ultimately it was God who built, but he, Paul, and us, are co-laborers.

And I believe Peter understood this.
2 Peter 1:2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

It is not of HIMSELF, but Through God and Jesus! We do not get our knowledge from ourselves let alone the Church, we receive it from God for it is all in God's Grace... and this Grace, brings about peace.

Here again is this dichotomy that I cannot understand. Do we not learn from one another? Are we not 'living letters?'

And would you say we do not get our knowledge from the bible, but from Him alone? If so, as spiritual as that sounds, and as true as it is at one level, how profoundly dangerous does it sound as well.

You see, our relationship with Christ has a quality control lab, and within that lab are certain instruments by which we can check the quality of our revelation. I assure you, in your lab are instruments which your hands did not design.

God gave the specifications, Moses and Israel built the Tabernacle. God gave the specifications, the Apostles and their progeny have built the Church.

2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power has given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who has called us to glory and virtue:

I'd like to stop and look at this verse a tad differently than most might expect. Note, Peter is saying that His divine power gives us all things that pertain to life! Not just Godliness, but Life itself! I've said it before, I'll say it again. Sin and suffering is no accident.
Now, did we, you, I come to this knowledge on our own? Certainly not for we were CALLED... and each of us has a different calling... a different role... and we as children of God, brothers and sister IN Christ make up the body of Christ.

Absolutely- now we are beginning to discuss the human participation in the building of the Church. This is something we all participate in in our weakness, and in our faith. We celebrate the faith of the Canaanite woman in her suffering and in her weakness, but she- a "dog"- was strong in faith, and in humility.

When you say "came to this knowledge" you call upon the experience of Christ in the Church and in our lives over time even to this day. Since the Apostles did not simply repeat the words of the four gospels to the people, but taught them and helped them with their misinterpretations, how shall we believe that this generation can read the gospels with the epistle/study guides and not suffer misinterpretation as did the early Christians?
We cannot- but the testimony of the whole Church over time can certainly help to keep individuals on track.
Jesus has many faces.

For any prot to claim ownership of this 'jesus' or the orthodox, catholic, mormon etc to do the same, is to limit Christ and chimerically elevate ones sense of piety and in doing so, fails to appreciate the fullness of God and the wonderful mysteries fullfilled through His Son.

I think that we Orthodox claim fealty to the teaching of Christ through the Church, not ownership of Christ. In fact, I am certain of this, for we do not claim to know God's judgement of those who are not in communion with us. We do not limit God's sovereignty, nor His mercy.

2 Peter 1:4 By which are given unto us exceedingly great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Great and precious promises... so simple, yet so misunderstood. For it is through the Promise that God had made with Abraham.. Moses... Noah... and yes, YOU and I... that His son was slain... and it was through that act, that God has shown us that he is a God that keeps his promise. From this aspect, we can begin to see how divine God's true nature is.
But what is this lust that is spoken about? I believe (and I'm far from knowing greek), but I believe that the greek word used for lust here is
epipotheô which, simply put is to yearn after.

So, I beg the question, do you yearn after Christ, or do you yearn after your tradition? Do you yearn that other know Christ, or the Orthodox tradition? Tradition in and of itself is not a bad thing for we are commanded to keep the traditions that we have been taught (2 Thessalonians 3:6) but in all due respect, we must keep in mind that God does work in mysterious ways... 1 Peter 1:18 Since you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain manner of life received by tradition from your fathers;
and not from the traditions of the Church.

On one level, you ask an excellent question, which I sum thusly:
"What or whom do you ultimately desire?"
This question is rightly asked of all traditions, non-traditions, and so forth.

On another level, you have added a dichotomy which makes no sense to me. When you ask "do you desire Jesus or your tradition" I am inclined to remind you that our tradition is to desire Christ more than anything.

But let me apporach this in another way, so that you will understand what Tradition is to us: "do you desire Christ or your tradition" is akin to asking me "do you wish to see, or think?" For it is with the eye that the mind sees, and with the mind that the eye finds its focus. Now we all see the world through our experiences, prejudices, hurts, hopes, culture, and influences. Each of these conduct themselves concurrently as the Light of Christ passes through our human eyes. Tradition is a guide to know what one is seeing.

Within Tradition there remains a certain diversity of thought (sight), just as within each of us remains a certain amount of contrasting thoughts. I said contrasting, for 'haste makes waste' and 'he who hesitates is lost' are both true, at some level. Wisdom and experience help the young mind to come to understand how both of those statements can be true, and wisdom and experience tell us how to reconcile these seeming contraditions, paradoxes, and mysteries.

A different metaphor
As it is written: "How shall they hear without a preacher?" We all hear preachers. I prefer the concordant voice of the preacher we call Tradition over the many voices of individual interpretation. I would not prefer a concordant voice that did not ring true, such as the concordant voice in this culture of death that says that a woman's "right to choose" nulls and voids the right of the child within her to live. Or, for that matter, that 15 dollar pants at Walmart will please my pocketbook well enough to forget that prisoners and children are sewing the slacks. Or, that my children are less important than the square footage of my house.

I know the Voice of My Shepherd, and I hear it resonating within the Holy Orthodox Tradition- and I am assured that He has built His Church on the foundation of Apostles and Prophets- not upon the arguments of so-called scholars or people who have had unique spiritual experiences.

One last thing: By pitting Church Tradition against Christ, as in desiring one or the other, you have revealed a bias that you may have, which you may not been aware of:
You hold it to be true that tradition is something other
than straight up, pure Christ. This Reformed view has a foundational assumption that one can hear God apart from the influence of culture, experience, bias, prior teaching, and so forth. This is, of course, incorrect.
The Reformers assured their students that they could hear the Lord for themselves from scripture sans tradition- and then immediately began establishing other traditions upon this first axiom.

Orthodox Tradition is completely and unabashedly Christocentric. If I didn't desire Christ more than my own breath, I'd have never signed up for the Orthodox way- for we take the words of Christ "take up your cross (daily) and follow me" to heart and quite literally.

Thanks for the post, SB. You have brought some important points to the table, and I hope we can continue this dialogue.
James

 

[cj]

How subtle the enemy's speaking is.

How well he mixes his corruption in with truth; hidden leaven in fine flour.

James,

And this is the point: Repentance begins with each individual. We do not need pharasaical, fault-finding Fundies flaming everyone who isn't part of their Donatist cult. Rather, every Christian of every denomination/sect needs to examine themselves, and let God purify them (me). There is a world full of precious individuals at stake.

"If my people, who call themselves by Name will humble themselves and pray and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven...."

Nothing there about pointing out the faults or sins of others. The finger of God is pointed at you, and me.

Very Good. However, I submit the heterodox world cannot be humble because they will not "obey and submit to those in authority over them". My experiance in the heterodox faith was one of no accountability. How can one examine their own wicked heart? What does one examine their wicked hearts with? We simply cannot examine our own hearts with any success. This is why the Church offers the sacrement of Confession and spiritual fathering.

My point is heterodox have no accountability thus the heterodox cannot repent because the heterodox cannot truely examine one self. There is no guidance, no spiritual fathering.

And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse Malachi 4:6.

I believe this verse shows us an inner drawing of God towards fathering and accountability truely found in each man that seeks after God.

Orthodoxy

God is our Father Orothodoxy, a truth and living reality you have been robbed of by those who perpetuate the adversary's lie.

Neither you nor I can have our hearts "turned" other than through the work of the Lord Spirit Himself.

Lets read OC word of wickedness....

"Rather, every Christian of every denomination/sect needs to examine themselves, and let God purify them (me)."

Can anyone spot Satan in the words above?

Sure you can,.... look closely at the contradiction.

See, Christ is the only name a believer takes, yet OC adds into the mix the institutions who have taken their own name, usurping Christ.

The fact is, it is only the Lord's great mercy and grace that brings a believer to a point of "seeing" his or her own condition, and the folly reality of the denominated institution is that it is a hidden stumbling block to each believer, wickedly hindering the flow of the Lord to His own people.

The truth is,..... upon examination, every believer would come to hate what the resulting issue, having received the corrupt food of the denominated institution.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

I agree with you wholeheartedly- with this caveat: There are many who are seeking God with their whole heart, and they have found themselves in the Protestant churches. Many, many of these have no clue that there even is a Holy Orthodox Church, either because we have not made ourselves known, or because some of our brethren have made a poor example of Orthodoxy by exhibiting it as an ethnic thing.

Of course, there is the great mercy of God, by which many will be saved from coming into contact with this apostate institution,.... Praise the Lord.

Always looking from the human viewpoint arn't you OC.

Like its is impossible for you to gain a position on Mount Moriah.

Which is understandable, your coming from the fallen ministry that leads one up the wrong pathway.

I also find this concept of examining one's self apart from the accountability of spiritual fathering and confession absolutely unbiblical and impossible.

No problem for us, you know little about the truth contained in the bible and thus speak the foolishness above from pride.

..... And then we come to the wickedness of the hidden leaven; that which is used to mislead and eventually cause the Headship of Christ to be lost, and the headship of Satan to be held onto.

What a disease is in our midst......

Read and understand why all believers must utterly reject the lie being delivered by OC.....

Many Protestants attempt to ameliorate this situation by forming men's accountability groups and seeking mentors. This is a step in the right direction, in my opinion- so why not take the whole walk, rather than just the step?
The fathers and mothers of the Church knew human nature, knew the Word of God, and knew what Jesus has taught through His holy Apostles. In their wisdom, with the direction of the Holy Spirit, they bequeathed to us the sacramental and liturgical tradition of the Orthodox faith. If one was to faithfully attend liturgy and apply oneself to the disciplines of prayer, fasting, scripture, charity, and service, one would be indeed discipled by the Master.

"The fathers and the mothers of the Church....", what generalizing dung is being given to the saints as food.

On the other hand, if one just does 'as the Spirit leads,' one tends to avoid the things that bring growth and truth- and in the end, remain unchanged.

But the following is Satan himself speaking....

"In..... their........ wisdom, with the direction of the Holy Spirit,..... they...... bequeathed to us the sacramental and liturgical tradition of the Orthodox faith. If one was to faithfully attend liturgy and apply oneself to the disciplines of prayer, fasting, scripture, charity, and service, one would be indeed discipled by the Master.

The lie from the pits of hell has been delivered.

Reject it utterly, just as it is utterly rejected by God's word.

ManyMy brother, I want to stand in the marketplace and shout this verse. The holy Apostle Paul lamented in his day that there 10,000 talking head bible teachers, but not many fathers. I wonder what he would write in our day? There are 18 zillion bible mumblers and next to no fathers?

And why?

Because a "father" is only a "father" when this one is submitted the Father through the Son and by the Spirit.

And this reality is only possible to gain via God's one completing ministry,.... Paul's ministry,...... that ministry which was left by the majority of believers and thus lost for centuries in the darkness of the apostate institutions that came out of ambiious men.

Listen to your own puffed-up heart OC,...... listen to your puffed-up heart speak in the manner of the pharisee...... "If one was to faithfully attend liturgy and apply oneself to the disciplines of prayer, fasting, scripture, charity, and service,..."

Away with your laws.

Being a son of God involves a whole lot more than just gnosis of the scripture.

What ignorance.

A "son" need only receive what the Father has given him.

This is the day for the children of God to turn their hearts to the fathers!! This is the day for the fathers to rise to the occasion!! May every returning son find a father who kisses them on the cheek, rather than a brother who resents their welcome.

Hohummm.........

Most believers, like yourself, are yet to realize that they are still abiding with the swine.

To those outside the Orthodox faith, I say "come and see." Taste and see that the Lord is good.

Oh Lord,...... thank you that we are saved by faith and as such have been removed from the fallen state of needing to feed our vanity with outward lies.


In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

It seems wherever the truth is spoken, and mercy and grace begin to manifest, the chancre is soon to follow, that it might devour the stalk of understanding and peace.

Lets read OC word of wickedness....

"Rather, every Christian of every denomination/sect needs to examine themselves, and let God purify them (me)."

Can anyone spot Satan in the words above?

Yes, I believe Satan can be found in the phrase "Lets read OC word of wickedness."

Any other questions?

See, Christ is the only name a believer takes

...sez "CJ." :

The fact is, it is only the Lord's great mercy and grace that brings a believer to a point of "seeing" his or her own condition, and the folly reality of the denominated institution is that it is a hidden stumbling block to each believer, wickedly hindering the flow of the Lord to His own people.

Truth mixed with the gospel of Satan: It is true that only God's grace can open the eyes and hearts of any of us.
What is false: Unity through division.
This is the implication of CJ's sermonette:
if everyone just leaves and joins with him, of course, and the rest of the schismatics, there will the Church manifest.
Sounds like the propaganda of any revolutionary, whether Castro, Marx, or Satan.

The truth is,..... upon examination, every believer would come to hate what the resulting issue, having received the corrupt food of the denominated institution.

translation: if you were spiritual, you'd see things the way CJ does.

Always looking from the human viewpoint arn't you OC.

Until I cease being a human, I reckon so. Thanks for supplying the inhuman perspective.

Check this:

Listen to your own puffed-up heart OC,...... listen to your puffed-up heart speak

Nothing as bracing and refreshing as personal attacks in the morning.

So, CJ, you lay claim to such sublime revelation and biblical refutation of my post. Perhaps you'd endeavor to use biblical refutation, as opposed to name calling and chest-puffing?

We'll take up your heretical Paulism and rejection of spiritual disciplines at a later date.

 

[Orthodoxy]

...

Wow... I think I got threw the first two paragraphs and decided to stop there...
My Friend, you really should learn not to assume as much as you do. But then again, we do find what we seek... and you have made it extreemly clear that you do not seek God's will in this matter, but your own abberated agenda.

Fear not, I love you anyway.

Your Brother in Christ,

Jeff

[/quote]

Please save your shallow plaitudes and surficial love for someone that knows better, eh. Just be honest and tell me what you think and where you stand. Take a position, get a christian back bone. What have I assumed that is not true about the heterodox faith?

You can not answer even one question on the "christian faith" you so adamantly claim? Why do you hate everything the Christian faith as stood for for the last 2000 years? Do you really think Christianity came into existance when you personally "asked Jesus into your heart" (which BTW is NOT in the bible)? Was Jesus born in America? Was Mary a Roman Catholic, these are the simple questions that take yes or no answers.

tisk tisk

 

[stovebolts]

First off buddy, you assume that you know where I stand when I veiw the Orthodox faith. In fact, I hold a high regard for anyone whom the Lord has called. (Ohh, did I say Jesus or is that all you hear? My, and what of this trinity?? Certainly this is no mystery to you!)

You have labled me unjustly and trust me, it takes more than backbone to hold one's silence and keep ones composure.

But to be fair, I give you the benifit of the doubt that it was I , that has entered the lions den and perhaps... I have come unprepared, as I seem to lack in the art of articulating myself clearly at times... Trust me, I will try harder in the future and when I make a formal reply to your illicit, ravenous replies to me, they will be well thought out and not some whim such at this.

 

[cj]

Yes, I believe Satan can be found in the phrase "Lets read OC word of wickedness."

And I know that Satan's desire is to deceive,..... therefore I expected nothing less than deceptive speaking from the mouth of the one who would serve him.

Any other questions?

No,... you really are quite transparent.

Truth mixed with the gospel of Satan:

This is the leavened meal you and the apostate institution you worship, attempt to serve to the unsuspecting believer.

It is true that only God's grace can open the eyes and hearts of any of us.

And it is also true that this is according to His wisdom, and thus man should not attempt to add anything of his fallen state to this divine truth.

But the apostate institution cannot feed its craven lusts by simply holding to God's truth alone, and therefore adds its wickedness.

What is false: Unity through division.
This is the implication of CJ's sermonette:
if everyone just leaves and joins with him, of course, and the rest of the schismatics, there will the Church manifest.
Sounds like the propaganda of any revolutionary, whether Castro, Marx, or Satan.

I must admit, I really expected a more formidable attack from you OC, but what you presented above is no better than that which would come out of the mouth of the belligerent person, drunk with pride.

And yet, from Revelation  17 : 2, we can know that this is the way of the apostate institution worshipper,....

"With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication,.... and those who dwell on the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication."

For the record, never have I suggested that any join me,.... something OC, that you cannot claim. For your desire to is to draw saints into this evil called the Orthodx Church, blatantly usurping the word of God in its direction to the many members of the body.

It is to the utmost shame that a believer would so easily expose his nakedness before God, forsaking the covering that the Father has prescribed, which is the Son of His love.

translation: if you were spiritual, you'd see things the way CJ does.

To all the saints who migh read this response of OC........ know that you are witnessing the way of the devil.

Be clear, and not deceived by his ploy.

Take a close look at OC's words and note that these words contain nothing of value in them. There is no position taken, no stance upon the Rock. No declaration of truth. Only spiteful poison, released with the intention to harm, to destroy and breakdown, and not to build.

This is the way of God's adversary, the way of Satan.

Until I cease being a human, I reckon so. Thanks for supplying the inhuman perspective.

Read the scriptures and give yourself to the Lord that you may know who you truly are in Him.

Or maybe you simply do not believe, and thus reject, the reality that is found in His word,...... Corinthians 5:17,

"So then if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold, they have become new."


Once again, by your own words you expose your desire that value be found in your old man.


This is the truth OC,...... a vessel has no valid expression in itself, its reality is found in the hand of Him who shaped it, and in the content that fills it.

Nothing as bracing and refreshing as personal attacks in the morning.

Resurrection came in the early hours of the new day.

Yet some chose to view this saving grace through negative eyes.

I can only deliver the message,... you must receive or reject it.

So, CJ, you lay claim to such sublime revelation and biblical refutation of my post. Perhaps you'd endeavor to use biblical refutation, as opposed to name calling and chest-puffing?

I do all the time,...... yet you still persist in trying to convince others that I don't.

And I fully understand why OC, for Satan must depart when the truth is spoken.

We'll take up your heretical Paulism and rejection of spiritual disciplines at a later date.

"heretical Paulism"......... you're funny OC.

And understandably general in your speaking.

See, I've never said that spiritual discipline is not an absolute necessity in a believer's consecration to God.

Yet you present this lie in your speaking.... "and rejection of spiritual disciplines......."

Once more, you expose in your speaking the subtlety of Satan's way.

Perhaps this concluding word of your's should be understood by all as a declaration of the source of your "spiritual" discipline, and the headship of the adversary of God to which you hold.


In love,
cj