I am starting to REALLY like the Catholics (OC plz read)

[Lyric's Dad]

ROME EQUALS VATICAN

Some may object that it is Rome, and not that small part of it known as Vatican City, which is built on seven hills, and that the Vatican can hardly be called a "great city," Though both objections are true, the words "Vatican" and "Rome" are universally used interchangeably. Just as one would refer to Washington and mean the government that runs the United States, so one refers to Rome and means the hierarchy that rules the Roman Catholic Church.

The infallible Dave Hunt has spoken. Sorry Vatican City is not Rome. It is not on any of the seven hills. Neither is it even on the same side of the river. Hunt is a biggot who's pride and hatred is akin to the KKK (most of which were baptists and non-demoniatoinals i am sorry to say). Shall we get in to that.

Oh, how pathetically laughable. Because Hunt has exposed the catholic church for what it truly is, he is a bigot akin to the kkk. Oh, thanks for the laugh.

Oh, and before you get too high on that soapbox and start trying to put the Protestant Church in white sheets, you might want to take a good look at the book "foxes book of martyrs." People in glass houses, don't burn people at the stake. Or is that supposed to be throw stones?

 

[Vic C.]

I have been watching quite a bit of EWTN lately and the Franciscan (I think that is spelled right) monks that come on late at night....

I like the fact that there preaching style is more about trying to understand different points of view and SHARING the Gospel message rather than FORCING it down peoples throats....

Plus the Orthodox and Catholic systems are the oldest Churches and there have been many Holy men, Saints and mystics like Augustine and the like which are very inspirational for me personally!

Last night the monk was explaining how Assisi used to see Christ in ALL THINGS. His blood on the roses, his tears in the rain, his cross in the trees, etc.... That is awesome and I am surprised that I have never heard that kind of preaching before and it made my heart glad!

It sure beats the brow beating protestant hellfire messages thats for sure!

Carry on. Further End Times posts will be split off into their own post. Sorry if I contributed to this hijacking. :

 

[thessalonian]

ROME EQUALS VATICAN

Some may object that it is Rome, and not that small part of it known as Vatican City, which is built on seven hills, and that the Vatican can hardly be called a "great city," Though both objections are true, the words "Vatican" and "Rome" are universally used interchangeably. Just as one would refer to Washington and mean the government that runs the United States, so one refers to Rome and means the hierarchy that rules the Roman Catholic Church.

The infallible Dave Hunt has spoken. Sorry Vatican City is not Rome. It is not on any of the seven hills. Neither is it even on the same side of the river. Hunt is a biggot who's pride and hatred is akin to the KKK (most of which were baptists and non-demoniatoinals i am sorry to say). Shall we get in to that.

Oh, how pathetically laughable. Because Hunt has exposed the catholic church for what it truly is, he is a bigot akin to the kkk. Oh, thanks for the laugh.

Oh, and before you get too high on that soapbox and start trying to put the Protestant Church in white sheets, you might want to take a good look at the book "foxes book of martyrs." People in glass houses, don't burn people at the stake. Or is that supposed to be throw stones?

Where did I say I live in a glass house. What the crusaders did in Constantinople was atrocious. Leo X let his power go to his head. John XXII was a scoundral from what I can tell. The treatment of Joan of Arc by a bishopl was nasty. I can certainly go on. The Catholic Church has many sinners including myself. Bishops and priests are sinners. Even Peter who catered to the Jews was a sinner. The twelve apostles were all sinners. One denied our Lord, one betrayed him and all of them abandoned him until John found the strength to look upon him at the Cross. The great Apostle Paul said "the good that I would do, I do not, while the EVIL that I would not do I do. " . Okay, go rip Paul's books out of the Bible. While your at it take out the words of David who had his friend killed for his wife. No, the Catholic Church is about sinners. Some of them are of the most vile sort. For we are told there will be Wolves among the sheep and tares within the wheat. Your poining at some of the sins proves little, but your lack of understanding of scripture. Your refusal to acknowledge that the great evangelists such as Xavier and Cure De Ars who between the two of them converted over 1 million to Christ shows your lack of desire to acknowedge the POWER OF GOD that does work in the Catholic Church, despite it's many sinners.

Dave Hunt is not taken seriously among protestants. And I have FBM by the way. Some of it is quite legitimately condemned. Some of it the context is completely left out. Governments fordid heresy in those days. Even Protestant governments. Ever heard of the Geneva Inquisition? It wasn't Catholic and there were matches and woodpiles. I do believe that John Calvin might have even participated at one time, History shows. How about England? How many priests do you suppose died in prison for sayng Mass? Do you propose such laws today? Or Switzerlan where 19 nuns and priests were killed by Calvinists. Oh boy, that took alot of Christian courage.

Have you ever read rational sources such as "Salvatoin at Stake" by a Protestant. Not likely. Isn't it the way of the devil to point out man's past sins when God calls for forgiveness. There are plently of reasons for Catholics to hold this deep grudge that Protestants have against Catholics. A grudge that does not even involve Protestants many times, but people who were upsetting peaceful societies. Of course the Batpists call everyone who was not Catholic a Baptist. "ah don't believe what the history books tell ya, they were all Baptists, Donations, Paulists, Montanists, etc. etc.". :-? Of course they have to do this because there is no trace of Protestants from 33 to 1515. The gates of hell prevailed for a time on true Christianity it seems and Dave Hunt is trying to bring it back to that pont. He won't prevail of course. He is like Luther who spewed venom and hatred. Is it works of God to dry naked men flatulating and popes and bishops in feces? Spewng out vulgarity and profanities and profanities against ANYONE (including Protestants) who DARED to disagree with the great theologian that ever lived (in his own mind). You shall know them by their fruits and Luther was a fruit.

Blessings

 

[Orthodox Christian]

ROME EQUALS VATICAN

Some may object that it is Rome, and not that small part of it known as Vatican City, which is built on seven hills, and that the Vatican can hardly be called a "great city," Though both objections are true, the words "Vatican" and "Rome" are universally used interchangeably. Just as one would refer to Washington and mean the government that runs the United States, so one refers to Rome and means the hierarchy that rules the Roman Catholic Church.

The infallible Dave Hunt has spoken. Sorry Vatican City is not Rome. It is not on any of the seven hills. Neither is it even on the same side of the river. Hunt is a biggot who's pride and hatred is akin to the KKK (most of which were baptists and non-demoniatoinals i am sorry to say). Shall we get in to that.

Oh, how pathetically laughable. Because Hunt has exposed the catholic church for what it truly is, he is a bigot akin to the kkk. Oh, thanks for the laugh.

Oh, and before you get too high on that soapbox and start trying to put the Protestant Church in white sheets, you might want to take a good look at the book "foxes book of martyrs." People in glass houses, don't burn people at the stake. Or is that supposed to be throw stones?

Where did I say I live in a glass house. What the crusaders did in Constantinople was atrocious. Leo X let his power go to his head. John XXII was a scoundral from what I can tell. The treatment of Joan of Arc by a bishopl was nasty. I can certainly go on. The Catholic Church has many sinners including myself. Bishops and priests are sinners. Even Peter who catered to the Jews was a sinner. The twelve apostles were all sinners. One denied our Lord, one betrayed him and all of them abandoned him until John found the strength to look upon him at the Cross. The great Apostle Paul said "the good that I would do, I do not, while the EVIL that I would not do I do. " . Okay, go rip Paul's books out of the Bible. While your at it take out the words of David who had his friend killed for his wife. No, the Catholic Church is about sinners. Some of them are of the most vile sort. For we are told there will be Wolves among the sheep and tares within the wheat. Your poining at some of the sins proves little, but your lack of understanding of scripture. Your refusal to acknowledge that the great evangelists such as Xavier and Cure De Ars who between the two of them converted over 1 million to Christ shows your lack of desire to acknowedge the POWER OF GOD that does work in the Catholic Church, despite it's many sinners.

Dave Hunt is not taken seriously among protestants. And I have FBM by the way. Some of it is quite legitimately condemned. Some of it the context is completely left out. Governments fordid heresy in those days. Even Protestant governments. Ever heard of the Geneva Inquisition? It wasn't Catholic and there were matches and woodpiles. I do believe that John Calvin might have even participated at one time, History shows. How about England? How many priests do you suppose died in prison for sayng Mass? Do you propose such laws today? Or Switzerlan where 19 nuns and priests were killed by Calvinists. Oh boy, that took alot of Christian courage.

Have you ever read rational sources such as "Salvatoin at Stake" by a Protestant. Not likely. Isn't it the way of the devil to point out man's past sins when God calls for forgiveness. There are plently of reasons for Catholics to hold this deep grudge that Protestants have against Catholics. A grudge that does not even involve Protestants many times, but people who were upsetting peaceful societies. Of course the Batpists call everyone who was not Catholic a Baptist. "ah don't believe what the history books tell ya, they were all Baptists, Donations, Paulists, Montanists, etc. etc.". :-? Of course they have to do this because there is no trace of Protestants from 33 to 1515. The gates of hell prevailed for a time on true Christianity it seems and Dave Hunt is trying to bring it back to that pont. He won't prevail of course. He is like Luther who spewed venom and hatred. Is it works of God to dry naked men flatulating and popes and bishops in Jesus is Lord of all? Spewng out vulgarity and profanities and profanities against ANYONE (including Protestants) who DARED to disagree with the great theologian that ever lived (in his own mind). You shall know them by their fruits and Luther was a fruit.

Blessings

That is a solid, historically accurate, point-by-point response to the foolishness that has been going on on this thread.

I've been mulling over the spurious correlations that Dave Hunt advances as exegetical proof. No one with any academic training whatsoever could take him seriously. Only the ignorant- or those who had so much desire to see Rome condemned that their minds were blinded- could repeat Hunt's fallacies without blushing.

Yet he (Hunt) has found a substantial audience in certain circles. That speaks volumes about the quality of minds and hearts in those certain circles.

getting back to the OP

I like the fact that there preaching style is more about trying to understand different points of view and SHARING the Gospel message rather than FORCING it down peoples throats....

It isn't as if Rome and Constantinople haven't forced the message down people's throats, so to speak, in their day. Justinian was just one of several Byzantine emperors who enforced orthodoxy with a sword. This is to say nothing of the vicious pogroms against the Jews in Orthodox Russia.

But over the years, we have returned time and again to the apostolic intent, which is make manifest God's Kingdom on this earth- rather than fattening earthly kingdoms. Protestants owned and sold slaves, but they also were instrumental in bringing about the end of slavery. We all stumble, but those who turn their hearts toward God rise up again.

We see this same pattern in the OT: periods of repentance and piety, periods of excess and falling away.

And this is the point: Repentance begins with each individual. We do not need pharasaical, fault-finding Fundies flaming everyone who isn't part of their Donatist cult. Rather, every Christian of every denomination/sect needs to examine themselves, and let God purify them (me). There is a world full of precious individuals at stake.

"If my people, who call themselves by Name will humble themselves and pray and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven...."

Nothing there about pointing out the faults or sins of others. The finger of God is pointed at you, and me.

James

 

[thessalonian]

Thank you James. :-D And for your excellent commentary.

 

[Novice]

Wow. Pharisees (and Satan for that matter) are quite adroit at quoting Scripture, but from a man's mouth comes the content of his soul. Spoken like a true disciple of the Servant King.

Preach on, Ortho-brothah!

 

[fiat]

Well then...the voice(s) of reason have spoken. I see no reason for further discussion. Not that that will happen :wink:, but three cheers for Thessalonian and OC!!!

 

[Soma-Sight]

vic,

thx for putting things back on track....

or at least trying too!

A Note for Conservative Evangelicals!

Your Doctrine you love so much... that of "Original Sin" was formulated by a Catholic! St. Augustine!

This doctrine that man's nature is sinful and intrinsically evil differs from the Jewish notion that man is basically good!

So if you are going to throw the RCC out the window..... dont forget to not throw the baby (Original Sin) out with the bathwater!

 

[thessalonian]

I never said Keating was stating that Rome was the Whore of Babylon.

Read what is written before you post... :roll:

I read it and quite well understood what you said. I have no problem with what I wrote. Sorry you do.

 

[cj]

To borrow OC's humanistic reasoning for a moment..... history has also declared that "Rome" (and the Vatican is Rome, whether one wants to admit it or not. Just try removing it from the world's view of Rome and see what happens. Impossible, its one and the same) has absolutely prostituted herself to worldly powers, behind which we find Satan's divisive and anti-Christ kingdom.

And further, what of the daughter harlots, those who carry on the wicked business of prostitution as per the mother's ways?

Line after line we can taste in the writings of the religious, the very same spirit of haughtiness that opposed Jesus as He walked this earth.

The truth is, Jesus is still opposed by His own, those who would hold to man as their head.

In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

To borrow OC's humanistic reasoning for a moment..... history has also declared that "Rome" (and the Vatican is Rome, whether one wants to admit it or not. Just try removing it from the world's view of Rome and see what happens. Impossible, its one and the same) has absolutely prostituted herself to worldly powers

The world sees Jesus as a great teacher, but not God: so even if your notion of the world seeing the Catholic Church as Rome is true, it is nonetheless utterly irrelevant.

Regarding the Vatican's so-called prostitution (some here seem fond of very vulgar and prurient language), let us consider the following:

The Vatican speaks out against the actions of the largest world power in its bloody pursuit of vengeance
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,80875,00.html
Conservative Christians, however, by and large remained silent or applaud this unprovoked war:
http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/002387.php

The Vatican works to influence the UN in support of human rights, yet flatly opposes the UN position on abortion.
ttp://www.catholicsforchoice.org/new/opeds/022101ChurchOrState.htm

The Vatican recognizes and acknowledges Taiwan, alone in Europe in so doing, and opposes China, while the US- including our Evangelical president- climb into bed with this vicious regime
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3743

There is an obvious difference between diplomatic efforts to influence for the good, and prostitution. Should Rome remain aloof and isolated, distant from matters political, they would be accused of not caring enough to use their influence.
:smt018

Protestant bombs fall on Christian Serbians while Evangelicals applaud. Who's sold out to whom?

 

[Gary]

Protestant bombs fall on Christian Serbians while Evangelicals applaud. Who's sold out to whom?

The Pope... during WWII. Remember him? Hitler's pope?

 

[thessalonian]

Protestant bombs fall on Christian Serbians while Evangelicals applaud. Who's sold out to whom?

The Pope... during WWII. Remember him? Hitler's pope?

You believe everything you read. I suppose after reading Dan Brown's book you have determined that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. As for hitler's Pope, the fact of the matter is that the Jews had great respect for the man and planted 860,000 trees in his honor. The whole hitler's pope thing is complete nonsense. The Church did what they could for the Jews.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Protestant bombs fall on Christian Serbians while Evangelicals applaud. Who's sold out to whom?

The Pope... during WWII. Remember him? Hitler's pope?

Typical farcical avoidance.

Three thousand dead Christian brothers bombed, but they were only Orthodox and, ahem, Eastern European.

Since their deaths at the hands of a Protestant Empire mean nothing, therefore let's make a cute comment and a smiley face.



P.S.: So much for "Hitler's Pope"

http://www.regnery.com/books/mythhitler.html
Review here

 

[Gary]

Enjoy:

"This devastating account of the ecclesiastical career of Eugenio Pacelli (1876-1958), who became Pope Pius XII in 1939, is all the more powerful because British historian John Cornwell maintains throughout a measured though strongly critical tone. After World War II, murmurs of Pacelli's callous indifference to the plight of Europe's Jews began to be heard. A noted commentator on Catholic issues, Cornwell began research for this book believing that "if his full story were told, Pius XII's pontificate would be exonerated." Instead, he emerged from the Vatican archives in a state of "moral shock," concluding that Pacelli displayed anti-Semitic tendencies early on and that his drive to promote papal absolutism inexorably led him to collaboration with fascist leaders. Cornwell convincingly depicts Cardinal Secretary of State Pacelli pursuing Vatican diplomatic goals that crippled Germany's large Catholic political party, which might otherwise have stymied Hitler's worst excesses. The author's condemnation has special force because he portrays the admittedly eccentric Pacelli not as a monster but as a symptom of a historic wrong turn in the Catholic Church. He meticulously builds his case for the painful conclusion that "Pacelli's failure to respond to the enormity of the Holocaust was more than a personal failure, it was a failure of the papal office itself and the prevailing culture of Catholicism." --Wendy Smith

Hitler's Pope : The Secret History of Pius XII by John Cornwell

Click -here- if you want to feel sick

 

[Gary]

or here...

http://emperors-clothes.com/vatican/hitlers.htm

 

[Vic C.]

The Pope... during WWII. Remember him? Hitler's pope?

The two Beasts... the False prophet and the antichrist. :o

 

[thessalonian]

The Pope... during WWII. Remember him? Hitler's pope?

The two Beasts... the False prophet and the antichrist. :o

Interesting. Seems the evangelization method on this board is to point out historical events of questionable interprutation. I would have thought it would have been to "give reason for the hope that is within" showing Bible verses. So far the bible quoting I have seen on this board has been twisted at best and only used to put down what others believe. Of course this is primarily what I have experienced in my 7 years on the net with Protestants. They will loose at the scripture quoting and so must resort to bashin Catholicism with historical revisionism and red herrings. The basis of Protestantism is anti-Catholicism. If there were no Catholic Church it is clear there would be no protestant church. For they would have nothing to Protest. No real solid doctine on which to base their anti-doctrine. No common hatred to keep them unified in one thing anyway.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Shall we believe Cornwell, who claims to have been a pro-Catholic researcher seeking to redeem Pius' reputation...which has proven to be a false claim on his part. Even atheist.about.com, a source who could hardly be accused of being pro-Catholic, find Cornwell's claims of neutrality dubious (dubious is a kind way of saying bovine excrement.)

"Hitler's Pope is more than a biography of Pius XII and a history of the Church's authoritarian trend since the mid-nineteenth century. It is also a polemical work by a collegialist Catholic writer who deplores the "infallible" despotism of our recent modern Popes.[1] Cornwell points out that the authoritarian papacy has cost the Catholic Church dearly in terms of lost or defiant followers, eroded prestige and lessened influence in world affairs...."

or should we believe Rabbi Dalin

Rabbi Dalin shows, the Catholic Church, under direct orders from Pius XII, went to great lengths to shelter and protect Jews throughout Europe. The Myth of Hitler’s Pope is filled with examples of heroism throughout the European continent, and case after case of rescuers and rescued alike honoring Pope Pius XII for his defiance of the Nazis. Particularly moving is the book’s discussion of Pius’ efforts on behalf of Slovakian Jews; Rabbi Dalin contends that 20,000 Jews escaped deportation as a direct result of the Pope’s intervention.

Rabbi Dalin devotes considerable attention to the Nazi roundup of Jews in Rome, which has been the source of much controversy in the Pius XII debate. Michael Tagliacozzo, the leading authority on that terrible event (and himself a survivor of the roundup), says Pius XII "was the only one who intervened to impede the deportation of Jews on October 16, 1943, and he did very much to hide and save thousands of us." Archival evidence, he says, proves that it was the protests and actions of Pius XII that were responsible for rescuing 80 percent of Rome’s Jews. At the Pope’s behest, Jews were hidden all over the city, in churches, monasteries, and wherever room for them could be found.

Rabbi Dalin points out that neither Cornwell nor Susan Zuccotti, another Pius XII critic, mentions the sheltering of three thousand Jews at Castel Gandolfo, the Pope’s own summer residence. "Yet at no other site in Nazi-occupied Europe were as many Jews saved and sheltered for as long a period as at Castel Gandolfo during the Nazi occupation of Rome." Kosher food was served to the Jews sheltered there. Jewish children were even born in the Pope’s private apartments.

I think it fair to assume that y'all ain't going to touch the Serbian situation. It would entail an admission of complicity, and thus bring an element of doubt into your assumed moral ascendancy and superiority.

Pardon me while I stem this tide of nausea.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

The Pope... during WWII. Remember him? Hitler's pope?

The two Beasts... the False prophet and the antichrist. :o

Interesting. Seems the evangelization method on this board is to point out historical events of questionable interprutation. I would have thought it would have been to "give reason for the hope that is within" showing Bible verses. So far the bible quoting I have seen on this board has been twisted at best and only used to put down what others believe. Of course this is primarily what I have experienced in my 7 years on the net with Protestants. They will loose at the scripture quoting and so must resort to bashin Catholicism with historical revisionism and red herrings. The basis of Protestantism is anti-Catholicism. If there were no Catholic Church it is clear there would be no protestant church. For they would have nothing to Protest. No real solid doctine on which to base their anti-doctrine. No common hatred to keep them unified in one thing anyway.

In fairness, I have seen many Protestants who are miles above these lowbrow antics, many on this very forum.

But it is quite true that the bashing commences in the face of superior biblical and intellectual firepower. It is a guerilla tactic- the type of tactic used by all Fundamentalists.

I note that the powerful, compelling points in favor of apostolic Christianity are greeted with little more than emoticons, jpegs, and name-calling. I note also that calls for repentance and prayer on this very thread are bypassed in favor of renewed name-calling. In the language of the Charismatic Evangelical: my spirit does not witness to the spirit of Christ in that.

representin' on the Eastside
James