I can't see it as a "relationship" with God.

[Gabbylittleangel]

quote by Orion on Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:21 am
You know, . . . . I could care less about what you think of me, . . . gabby. What I see now is that you have no concern over someone who has struggles, expecting them to just "see things your way". You have NO RIGHT to see my life as "whining"!! You have NO IDEA what I've gone through and you have the gaul to post a sarcastic post that is on the level of the best sinners out there.

I'm glad that YOU aren't the "poster child" for those who are Christian!!

I will no longer respond to any of your posts because I have seen your heart and it is not what I care for.

It is callous attitudes like Gabby’s and Heidi’s that have turned off so many from attending the local churches today. Without love, we are just clanging cymbals and tinkering bells. The lack of attendance to these Laodicean institutions of coldness does not bother me because their candles have gone out and they have no light to share anymore anyways. Your pain and sincerity is all too evident in your posts and one would have to be deaf, blind and dumb not to recognize it. It is in adversity that faith is born so hang in there, brother.

Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Calling someone to repentance, telling them what must be done in order to establish a relationship with God, and challenging their consistent post on what they do not believe and attempting to get them to take a good look at themselves is not callous.

Not anymore so than when Jesus encountered the Scribes and Pharisees 2000 years ago.

To repeatedly post passages of Scripture that one does not understand as if it is the Scripture or God that is wrong, to repeatedly attempt to justify the bitterness and resentment and attempt to gain pity from others is just flat out wrong.

My response to Orion has been an attempt to lead someone to repentance, become born again, die to self, forgive those that is causing them to use this ----> :smt013. Attempts to use Scripture are not causing Orion to get up, dust himself off and be about the Fathers business. Questioning what he believes and why he believes it just produces more posts about what he does not believe and how he refuses to seek first God's kingdom and His righteousness.

God spells it out that plain. What to do first. What to desire most. What to let go of and what to take up. First means first. Period. I have no problem in telling Orion that he has to do it God's way, and to stop expecting God to to it Orion's way. Is that calloused?

Orion needs to repent of his attitude. That comes after praying for Orion. Praying for Orion...is that calloused? Exposing contradictions, exposing what is lacking in his faith, and why, telling him how others have come to faith in Christ, and testifying that the Bible is true, that it is possible to have a relationship with God, explaining to him God's plan, taking him step by step through God's plan when one knows that Orion is simply going to reply that he does not believe it or that he thinks everything is symbolic...is that calloused?

It has been said "How else but through a broken heart could Jesus enter in?"
Orion's heart is not broken. It's hardening. He is not moving toward the Lord, he is moving away. Read some of his threads. He is not looking for ways to build faith in Christ. He is looking for things that he does not understand in an attempt to support his unbelief. He is angry at God, and he is attacking God in the same way that others attack God when they are angry at Him. To blame God for things that the devil and man has done, is a tactic that is very common, and very wrong. He is in a very dangerous place spiritually, and it is a place where people ought not be babied, but confronted.

Compassion says to reach out and offer the Word of the Lord to Orion. Discernment says that when the Word of the Lord is rejected, to shake off the dust and move on. To continue to make claims against the Word of God, and to attempt to label everything as 'symbolic' rather than Truth that needs to be followed, obeyed, and responded to, is to clearly show that the person in question is very close to becoming an enemy of the cross.

What I am looking for in questioning him is what side of the line he is coming down on. It is amazing to me how quick my confrontation was met with accusations and name calling. Trying to get him to humble himself, pray, turn from his sin; trying to get him to get up and put on the full armor of God, or to fall on His mercy and grace, ANYTHING but listing reasons why God doesn't work for him...was met with being called 'the best of sinners'.

Typo, the candle has not gone out, it is burning. Those who walk in cold darkness are offended by it.
Best wishes as you try to lead Orion into the presence of the Father, and encourage his walk with the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Lewis]

I can't see my "relationship with God/Jesus" as personal, or even just a "relationship", for that matter. I can't seem to reconcile the fact that this relationship is bound to my own faith that it is even occuring. I'm to have faith that (1.) "what I read in the Bible is for me", (2.) "when I pray, I am having a conversation with God".

1.) The Bible is a set of books written long ago and compiled into Canon 1600-1700 years ago. Many were letters to a certain person or church, a lot of it was historical accounts, as well as the Messianic sections, the first few books of the New Testiment where Jesus was the on this Earth. Yet, I'm told that the book is to be used as a way that "God speaks to me" when I look at a specific set of passages. Whereas it is true that I can get an idea of what God says concerning certain topics, I don't see it as personal to me since the Bible is general, for anyone who wants to read it. I can get some good stuff out of it, . . . . .but it being a part of a "personal relationship with God", . . . . . I can't see it as such, any more than I could gain a "personal relationship" from reading someone's biography, journal, or diary.

2.) Praying is supposed to be the way I "talk to God", and he is supposed to "impress things on my mind", or something along those lines. However, my brain is so analytical that I can never be certain that what comes into my mind isn't just my own thoughts, and I would gather that most are, if not all. It's an area of "having faith" that isn't working for me. Pastor talked, yesterday, about how we aren't hearing God because we aren't listening and that God will impart to us what we should do. . . . . .that God expects obedience first. . . . . . but I am unable to really know whether I'm actually "hearing from God", or it being my own random thoughts. When I pray, I feel as though the words are nothing more than me "thinking to myself in my head", and those words go no further than that. I don't "hear" anything back. Some say, "well, God will bring scriptures to your memory, and that is God speaking to you". . . . . . :-? . . . . . When I hear that, I go back to point #1 above.

Bottom line is, . . . . I can't see the "personal relationship" or even just a "relationship" at all. I see there being the possibility to KNOW OF God/Jesus, but not have any sort of relationship. How do I reconcile this to myself?

Wow, that is not good. You need to pray that the Holy Ghost would work with you on this, because you have a big problem here.

 

[Orion]

Gabby, I apologize for my statement about you.

 

[Vic C.]

Guys and gals, while a I agreed with some of what gabby was suggesting and... while I thought unred's comments were a bit uncalled for, I hesitated to say something at first because I know gabby is capable of self defense.

So with this all out in the open, I say let it be water under the bride and lets continue with what I thought was some decent dialog.

Thanks,
Vic

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Gabby, I apologize for my statement about you.

Thank you.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Orion on Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:21 am
"You know, . . . . I could care less about what you think of me, . . . gabby. What I see now is that you have no concern over someone who has struggles, expecting them to just "see things your way". You have NO RIGHT to see my life as "whining"!! You have NO IDEA what I've gone through and you have the gaul to post a sarcastic post that is on the level of the best sinners out there.

I'm glad that YOU aren't the "poster child" for those who are Christian!!

I will no longer respond to any of your posts because I have seen your heart and it is not what I care for."

It is callous attitudes like Gabby’s and Heidi’s that have turned off so many from attending the local churches today. Without love, we are just clanging cymbals and tinkering bells. The lack of attendance to these Laodicean institutions of coldness does not bother me because their candles have gone out and they have no light to share anymore anyways. Your pain and sincerity is all too evident in your posts and one would have to be deaf, blind and dumb not to recognize it. It is in adversity that faith is born so hang in there, brother.

Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Calling someone to repentance, telling them what must be done in order to establish a relationship with God, and challenging their consistent post on what they do not believe and attempting to get them to take a good look at themselves is not callous.

Not anymore so than when Jesus encountered the Scribes and Pharisees 2000 years ago.

To repeatedly post passages of Scripture that one does not understand as if it is the Scripture or God that is wrong, to repeatedly attempt to justify the bitterness and resentment and attempt to gain pity from others is just flat out wrong.

My response to Orion has been an attempt to lead someone to repentance, become born again, die to self, forgive those that is causing them to use this ----> :smt013. Attempts to use Scripture are not causing Orion to get up, dust himself off and be about the Fathers business. Questioning what he believes and why he believes it just produces more posts about what he does not believe and how he refuses to seek first God's kingdom and His righteousness.

God spells it out that plain. What to do first. What to desire most. What to let go of and what to take up. First means first. Period. I have no problem in telling Orion that he has to do it God's way, and to stop expecting God to to it Orion's way. Is that calloused?

Orion needs to repent of his attitude. That comes after praying for Orion. Praying for Orion...is that calloused? Exposing contradictions, exposing what is lacking in his faith, and why, telling him how others have come to faith in Christ, and testifying that the Bible is true, that it is possible to have a relationship with God, explaining to him God's plan, taking him step by step through God's plan when one knows that Orion is simply going to reply that he does not believe it or that he thinks everything is symbolic...is that calloused?

It has been said "How else but through a broken heart could Jesus enter in?"
Orion's heart is not broken. It's hardening. He is not moving toward the Lord, he is moving away. Read some of his threads. He is not looking for ways to build faith in Christ. He is looking for things that he does not understand in an attempt to support his unbelief. He is angry at God, and he is attacking God in the same way that others attack God when they are angry at Him. To blame God for things that the devil and man has done, is a tactic that is very common, and very wrong. He is in a very dangerous place spiritually, and it is a place where people ought not be babied, but confronted.

Compassion says to reach out and offer the Word of the Lord to Orion. Discernment says that when the Word of the Lord is rejected, to shake off the dust and move on. To continue to make claims against the Word of God, and to attempt to label everything as 'symbolic' rather than Truth that needs to be followed, obeyed, and responded to, is to clearly show that the person in question is very close to becoming an enemy of the cross.

What I am looking for in questioning him is what side of the line he is coming down on. It is amazing to me how quick my confrontation was met with accusations and name calling. Trying to get him to humble himself, pray, turn from his sin; trying to get him to get up and put on the full armor of God, or to fall on His mercy and grace, ANYTHING but listing reasons why God doesn't work for him...was met with being called 'the best of sinners'.

Typo, the candle has not gone out, it is burning. Those who walk in cold darkness are offended by it.
Best wishes as you try to lead Orion into the presence of the Father, and encourage his walk with the Lord Jesus Christ.

OK, I don’t want to stir anything up again but I can see where I was wrong about Orion and my defense of him was just an enabling hand passing him another bottle of pity to drown his sorrows in. My discernment of these things is usually off and from Orion’s own reaction, I see that it was off here as well. Gabby, you have a gift of exhortation and I will bow out and let you do the counseling from now on. Love does have to be tough sometimes.

We can lock horns over something less important another time. :

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

OK, I don’t want to stir anything up again but I can see where I was wrong about Orion and my defense of him was just an enabling hand passing him another bottle of pity to drown his sorrows in. My discernment of these things is usually off and from Orion’s own reaction, I see that it was off here as well. Gabby, you have a gift of exhortation and I will bow out and let you do the counseling from now on. Love does have to be tough sometimes.

We can lock horns over something less important another time. :

:fadein:
Thank you.

 

[Orion]

And I am done with this forum.

 

[Orion]

First, what would be your feelings if I left the forum in the mindset you all accuse me of having? No one has seemed to show concern that someone may "become more lost", as this thread has been inactive for this week.

Second, do you actually believe that I am after pity rather than a discussion about the topics I bring up?

 

[polysci006]

I'm pretty much done with this thread. I am sorry that some on here have a problem believing my sincerety. I am sorry that I am not "falling into the Christian mold". If I did, it would be a lie unto myself. I will have to walk my spiritual life the only way I can, and may start another post about what I feel that is. But as for a "relationship with God/Jesus", having faith that it is a real relationship isn't something that I will be able to see. "Having faith" that what I read is "God speaking to me", or my prayers as a "conversation with God" and the idea of a "still small voice" as "God speaking to me", when all of it could just be myself, . . . with nothing tangible to make me know that it ISN'T me, such things have left me unsatisfied. I just don't feel it as anything personal.

Having said that, I am still open to something real. Because God loves me, I know I won't be ultimately disappointed because I am at least honest before God.

There were still a few exchanges after you said this, but... c'mon, man.. after you make a statement like, "I'm pretty much done with this thread," you can't come back and complain.

No one has seemed to show concern that someone may "become more lost", as this thread has been inactive for this week.

Threads die out, and once you've said you're done with the thread, again, you can't really come back and complain that the thread has gone inactive.

Second, do you actually believe that I am after pity rather than a discussion about the topics I bring up?

No, but to be honest, you're being more than a little immature.

Take a breather, go start that other thread after you've relaxed for a day or two (if you haven't already.. I haven't gone looking for new threads in a while.. busy busy test/paper week), and don't take it so personally when people let a thread die out.

 

[Orion]

I didn't realize that my words have a "set in stone" characteristic about them. :-?

I may say something one day, but a few days later, I realize that it was emotionally based or biased. Does that mean that, just because I state an intention, that it will always be the case from that moment on?

I don't ever want to be such a ridgedly bound thinker, even if I have said it myself. Even my own opinions are subject to scrutiny, as are anyone else's.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

First, what would be your feelings if I left the forum in the mindset you all accuse me of having?

No one can force you to get saved. No one can force you to see anything if you choose to be blind. And even if your eyes were open, no one can force you to believe that black and white is black and white. You have offered no point of reference, no common ground that a Bible believing Christian can look at to see where it is that you are coming from in order to show you how to get from where you are to where you ought to be.

To offer Scripture as a reference point to someone who believes that it is all poetic symbolic and not literal, is fruitless. We are trying to figure out if you think you were created, if you think you evolved from primates, or if you think you descended from martians. Once the Christians here are able to discern where you are, then we can figure out how to get you out of that lie, and into the truth. If you choose not to come to the truth, we can not force you. We can not cram Jesus down your throat, and we can not stand in the gap and pray the sinners prayer by proxy.

The fact that you keep showing up with questions about Christianity implies to me that there are two possibilities. The first possibility is that you are interested in the things of Christ, and may someday the seed will sprout and take root. The second possibility is that you are the member of FSTDT, who is looking for material to feed to the atheist over there. 123 Christian Forums seem to be a favorite target for them. Obviously someone who visits these forums is gleaning shiny objects for the barracuda to attack. If it is not you, then it has to be someone with an attitude very close to yours.

As far as if you were to leave this forum with your attitude, I, as a Christian, know that you have been prayed for, that God is keeping an eye on you, and perhaps you will find your way to the cross in some other place. Paul wrote, one plants, Apollos waters, but it is God that gives the increase. On the other hand, if you are one of those lost souls that are not now, nor ever will be saved....then God will uproot any wicked thing that has been planted, and restore any damage that has been done, and you leave here with a hedge of restraint having been prayed about you. God brought you here for a reason. We all hope that it is so that you get saved. However, the calling on my life seems to be to discern the sort of spirit that needs to be prayed against rather than for.
Orion, how would you feel if you thought that God let you post your doubts about Him and His Word just so that one of His children would pray restraint around you and expose the darkness?

No one has seemed to show concern that someone may "become more lost", as this thread has been inactive for this week.

More lost? Either you are, or you are not. If we were going to be held accountable for the choices that you make, we would have been given the ability to make them for you. As it stands, on judgment day, we will be able to tell God that we did share the gospel with you, and that if you rejected it, it won't be because we did not do what we were supposed to do. It's the old horse, water, drink story.
Are you giving us the authority to make decisions for you as to if you get saved or become 'more lost'?

Second, do you actually believe that I am after pity rather than a discussion about the topics I bring up?

We have repeatedly questioned what it is that you are after. When I was in kindergarten,(back before Sesame Street) back in the 60's, we spent many days learning what the names of the numbers were, what order they were in, how to write them, how to count, the difference between a 3 and an 8, and the difference between a 9 and a 6. One of the kids wanted to know why we had to learn numbers anyway.
The teacher told us that if we did not learn this that we would never be able to do trigonometry. Well, naturally, we all wanted to know what that was, and began asking questions.

The discussion about the topics that you bring up reminds me of that. Not only have you shown us that you do not hold the basic fundamental beliefs of Christianity, but you have repeatedly expressed that you do not believe them. There is no foundation there, (0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9) Yet you question the beliefs of the Christians who post here, express doubt, and unbelief, and bring up topics that are hanging in mid-air, having no foundation underneath them. ( Trigonometry)

No one has seemed to show concern ...

Mar 8:18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
Go back and read the thread again. And again. See if you can find where someone has said that they prayed for you, told you what the Word of God had to say, called you to repent of a bad attitude, humble yourself, pray, do it God's way, etc, etc....

 

[Orion]

The fact that you keep showing up with questions about Christianity implies to me that there are two possibilities. The first possibility is that you are interested in the things of Christ, and may someday the seed will sprout and take root. The second possibility is that you are the member of FSTDT, who is looking for material to feed to the atheist over there. 123 Christian Forums seem to be a favorite target for them. Obviously someone who visits these forums is gleaning shiny objects for the barracuda to attack. If it is not you, then it has to be someone with an attitude very close to yours.

I would like to say that I am not a member of FSTDT, and I'm not really sure of what those letters stand for. I am not an aethiest, nor do I believe in evolution as a means to our existance.

I'm also not your first suggestion, someone "interested in the things of Christ. . . .". I've actually been a Christian for most of my life and am actually quite active at the church I go to. Most of my questions stem from my own inner thoughts about some of the aspects of the religion that I was raised in, and accompanied by other source matterials that actually made me consider them. This particular thread was less about those and more about my "inner struggle" to find God on a personal level.

But I am quite willing to be taught still. Today, I was introduced to an interesting concept.

"God doesn't need to speak up, . . . we need to reduce the noise in our life."

I think that is rather profound, actually, and reminds me of the two simple words in Psalm 46, "Be still...". True, it is much easier said than done, but makes sense, all the things in our lives can create the noise that keeps us from where we can be.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

I would like to say that I am not a member of FSTDT, and I'm not really sure of what those letters stand for. I am not an aethiest, nor do I believe in evolution as a means to our existance.

I'm also not your first suggestion, someone "interested in the things of Christ. . . .". I've actually been a Christian for most of my life and am actually quite active at the church I go to. Most of my questions stem from my own inner thoughts about some of the aspects of the religion that I was raised in, and accompanied by other source matterials that actually made me consider them. This particular thread was less about those and more about my "inner struggle" to find God on a personal level.

But I am quite willing to be taught still. Today, I was introduced to an interesting concept.

"God doesn't need to speak up, . . . we need to reduce the noise in our life."

I think that is rather profound, actually, and reminds me of the two simple words in Psalm 46, "Be still...". True, it is much easier said than done, but makes sense, all the things in our lives can create the noise that keeps us from where we can be.

Be still.
God often uses that verse to get the attention of the person He is wanting to talk to. It is His way of letting you know that He has something that He wants to say and He wants your attention. He tells us in His word that His sheep know His voice and will follow Him and not another. Remember when Samuel heard the Lord call his name, he was advised to say "Speak Lord, for your servant listens."

My hope, my prayer for you is that the Lord is going to make clear to you what is symbolic and what is literal.

 

[DM]

I think Orion's candor about how he is feeling is a good thing. I think his entire premise is valid too. Modern day evangelical Christianity uses the words "personal relationship" to describe the bond between God and His human creatures. This tends to promote a sort of "fuzzy feeling" that Chrsitians have when they "experience" (supposedly) God.

The truth is that what Christians experience is not so much God, as it is the words themselves that purport to reveal that God. It is the words we hear, and come to believe in, that create within us our sense of "feeling". (Which, is not, as Orion has made clear from his own perspective, to question God's existence. Rather, it's to question how it is that we experience God). If a person comes to believe in words that purport to be "the word of God" (whether those "words of God" are framed in Christian orthodoxy, Hinduism, or any other religion), then the hearer and believer of those words becomes captivated by them, to the degree that they are willing to accept them as true.

The Christian God (who is the God and Father of Jesus Christ, according to "the word" which we ascribe to), is, I believe, the most convincing choice among the many "gods" there are to choose from. To have "faith" is to believe the testimony of the biblical God, revealed through the testimony of the apostles and prophets - Jesus being the "chief corner" among them all.

"So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ" (Romans 10:17)

"This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the words of Law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Galatians 3:2)

"In whom you also, after listening to the message (logos) of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in him with the Holy Spirit of promise" (Ephesians 1:13)

Thus, to "believe the gospel" is to "receive the Spirit".

All of which is to say that to experience God, is to experience hope through "the word", which is as close as we will get to God in this age. "The word was (and is) God" (John 1:1). Orion's sense of alienation from a relationship with God is quite purposeful, I believe, by God Himself, who desires Orion (and myself, and all Christians) to trust Him. To believe in Him. The words themselves are sufficient, and we have a witness, Jesus Christ, who claims to be the one who heard from God directly without limit:

"For he whom God has sent (Jesus) speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure." (John 3:34)

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life." (John 6:63)

"But as it is, you are seeking to kill me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God." (John 8:40)

As Peter said, "To whom else shall we turn? You have the words of eternal life."

What we experience, I believe, is a relationship with God in the sense that it is a relationship, not of presence, but of promise. If it's true that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord", then by the same token it must also be true that, to be present in the body is to be absent from the Lord. The God and Father of Jesus reaches out to humanity, not in some metaphysical way (which would be more akin to eastern religions). Rather, God reaches out to humanity through the gospel, which enters the hearer and believer "breath-like" (the literal meaning of the word spirit is "breath", translated from the Latin "spiritus" which also means "breath") - into the heart of the persuaded hearer of the gospel.

Through this "faith" in God's promises (of His coming kingdom and eternal life), we will experience "hope" in this present age of sin and death, and therefore we will be able to "love" our fellow man, just as God has loved one and all.

Grace and peace.
David

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

I think Orion's candor about how he is feeling is a good thing. I think his entire premise is valid too. ..Grace and peace.
David

Great post DM!

The frustration is from not knowing exactly what to address. The Scriptures that you quoted are perfect and true, and will go a long way in developing a relationship with God. However, if you read some of the other threads that Orion has posted in, most every reference to Scripture is countered with the thought that he does not believe that it is meant to be literal, but symbolic.
Until he comes to believe that God is God, that God is righteous, that the Word of God is true, and that God wants to have a one on one relationship with him, then things are going to stay pretty much at an impasse.

The fact that the 'Be still' got to him, says that God is reaching out to him, and that Orion is listening. A step in the right direction. Those of us who have a close relationship with God can be assured that God has heard our prayers for Orion.

 

[DM]

I need to clarify the following portion of my previous post, where I said:

Which, is not, as Orion has made clear from his own perspective, to question God's existence.

When I re-read that tonight, it reads like I'm potentially accusing Orion of questioning the existence of God. That was not my intention. A better way to word the above would have been to say, "Which is not to question God's existence, which I do not believe that Orion is making such a suggestion either".

My apologies to Orion if he read that with the idea that I was suggesting he somehow was questioning the existence of God. I think Orion has made it abundantly clear that he DOES believe in God.

Sincerely,
David