I can't see it as a "relationship" with God.

[Veritas]

polysci, . . . you are my "voice of reason" here. Thank you for that!

For a moment, pause, and think about what it takes to even accept there is such a thing as "reason".

Think about what reason is based on.

 

[Guest]

polysci, . . . you are my "voice of reason" here. Thank you for that!

"....faith of a mustard seed...." statements do little to help me. What does it matter if you "have a lot of faith"? There are many people I've known that have a HUGE amount of faith in God, yet are not healed (physically, financially, relationally, etc). It seems more like "lip service", something you say to someone to help them GAIN their faith, but it doesn't mean that anything will change. I would challenge anyone to "increase their faith (even up to that of a MILLION mustard seeds)" then show me how they can speak to a small rock on the road to move, AND it being done, then I will agree with you that faith actually matters.

If faith doesn't matter - then what is the point? Or is that your point?

 

[Orion]

To some, their faith really matters. But can they honestly say that they have heard God, without any reasonable doubt? What IS faith, but belief in that which is unseen and unproven. If someone has actually heard God and KNEW it was God, without a doubt, then they would no longer have "faith", but truth. I don't have faith that when I drop a pen, it will fall to the ground at the same trajectory (unaided). It is a truth. I want to know TRUTH. Faith has found itself barren in my spirit. Faith to believe in God. It is the same as a Hindu's belief in Kali. A Muslim's faith in Allah. A Wiccan's belief in Hecate. Why is it that pretty much every religion has the aspect of "faith"? What makes it "so much holier" to believe in something that has no evidence or proof? Are any of YOU more holy because of your great faith? Did Mother Theresa's faith make her one of the most holy people who ever lived? I found it extremely fascinating that she had constant struggles with feeling God's presence, even questioning whether or not God even existed. She didn't feel God's presence even in her great faith. She did perservere though.

I haven't felt or seen God active in my life. Especially in this past horror that I experienced, and still bare the wounds of. The person who caused it to happen, . . . . the person who SINNED, is blessed WAY more than she deserves. Justice was not done in my life. If it was a test, then God made it a MUCH harder test for me to pass.

 

[Veritas]

But can they honestly say that they have heard God, without any reasonable doubt? What IS faith, but belief in that which is unseen and unproven. If someone has actually heard God and KNEW it was God, without a doubt, then they would no longer have "faith", but truth. I don't have faith that when I drop a pen, it will fall to the ground at the same trajectory (unaided). It is a truth. I want to know TRUTH.

Yes, but you believe Truth exists. You believe "reason" is exists. That, in itself, actually takes faith.

Faith has found itself barren in my spirit. Faith to believe in God. It is the same as a Hindu's belief in Kali. A Muslim's faith in Allah. A Wiccan's belief in Hecate. Why is it that pretty much every religion has the aspect of "faith"?

I would say they splintered from the same place... the same Truth. ..but some got lost, or cynical... One thing is for sure, however, Truth, by its very nature, is exclusive. In all of this, it is why I find the exchange between Pilate and Jesus so fascinating.

Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?"

"Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"

"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?"

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.

Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the TRUTH. Everyone on the side of TRUTH listens to me."

"What is truth?" Pilate asked. John 18:33-38

What makes it "so much holier" to believe in something that has no evidence or proof? Are any of YOU more holy because of your great faith?

No, I don't believe so.

 

[Guest]

I haven't felt or seen God active in my life. Especially in this past horror that I experienced, and still bare the wounds of. The person who caused it to happen, . . . . the person who SINNED, is blessed WAY more than she deserves. Justice was not done in my life. If it was a test, then God made it a MUCH harder test for me to pass.

Why do you say she is 'blessed' more than she deserves? What is it that she has that makes her 'blessed'?

What is your understanding of justice? I would suggest that biblical justice brings about reconcilliation.

 

[Orion]

Why do you say she is 'blessed' more than she deserves? What is it that she has that makes her 'blessed'?

What is your understanding of justice? I would suggest that biblical justice brings about reconcilliation.

She's living in a nice house that her grandparents bought for her (and she doesn't even care about them at all), and received an estate check for her dad's house and land (he died a while back) in the sum of $153K (and she didn't even go to his funeral because she didn't care about him), all while she was destroying a marriage, cheating, spitting on the vows before God, . . . .and I tried everthing to make it work, prayed, and a church pray and pray and pray etc. . . . . and I can't even afford a cheap house in the ghetto. She doesn't deserve so much financial security and freedom!!! :smt013

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

I meant no disrespect; I only find it annoying that people are essentially accusing Orion of not having enough faith to have a "relationship with God", even though the Bible never really talks about a "personal relationship with God", that when this passage was brought up, well...

I believe Orion is a Christian who is having some trouble coping with some conflicting ideas. On one side are those who believe that we can and should have some "personal relationship with God", and on the other side are those who pray and read our Bibles and go to church and read our devotionals and realize that God is not taking as active a role in the world as He once did, to include an end to the "personal relationships" He had with Biblical figures like Abraham and David.

Whether I or anyone has the faith of a mustard seed, or the faith of 10,000 mustard seeds, that will not necessarily impact God's decision to interact with us. We can not force Him to have a relationship with us by having "more faith" just like we can not force a mountain to move by faith alone.

Those of us who have faith are attempting to encourage Orion to plant a mustard seed. That is the only way it grows. Orion, if he even has the seed, is refusing to plant it and whines because he has no harvest, and does not believe that there is any such thing as a harvest even if you plant the seed, so what is the use. Yet he comes into these forums day after day after day with new threads that basically say the same thing."Hath God really said..."

Orion can pull passages out of Scripture quicker than the devil and say "I have a a problem understanding this verse; passage; etc; as if he is seeking understanding. When it is explained, he challenges what was given.

Poor Poor Pitiful Orion claims he does not like where he is in his faith. He tells us repeatedly that he does not like where he is in his faith. Yet when those among the body of Christ tell him how to move from where he is and grow, he sticks out his lip, crosses his arms, and says "NO!"

Orion claims that he wishes that his faith were different, but does not want to do anything to make it any different. And he calls polysci006 his voice of reason. polysci006, who stood up for Orion and made it known that the words of Jesus Christ were offensive and made no sense to them.

Poor Orion is standing in the 123 boat, casting out baited hooks all over the forum.
I am wondering if the Mods are smelling something fishy yet.

 

[Guest]

Why do you say she is 'blessed' more than she deserves? What is it that she has that makes her 'blessed'?

What is your understanding of justice? I would suggest that biblical justice brings about reconcilliation.

She's living in a nice house that her grandparents bought for her (and she doesn't even care about them at all), and received an estate check for her dad's house and land (he died a while back) in the sum of $153K (and she didn't even go to his funeral because she didn't care about him), all while she was destroying a marriage, cheating, spitting on the vows before God, . . . .and I tried everthing to make it work, prayed, and a church pray and pray and pray etc. . . . . and I can't even afford a cheap house in the ghetto. She doesn't deserve so much financial security and freedom!!! :smt013

While I cannot fathom what your life is like - I can understand the anger of what appears to be "injustice".

You claim she is blessed because of "financial security and freedom".

Was Paul blessed? Was Moses blessed? Was Peter blessed? Was Stephen blessed?

What does it do for a man (or woman) to enherit the whole world, but lose their life?

There are those who will have their 'gain' now - but in the end, gnashing of teeth.

 

[polysci006]

... polysci006, who stood up for Orion and made it known that the words of Jesus Christ were offensive and made no sense to them.

I sincerely hope that I have not made it sound as though I find the Bible or the words of Jesus Christ to be offensive.

 

[polysci006]

Isn't it a Christian belief that in Heaven, people will have actual flesh and blood bodies?!!"

Ahh.. no. But moving on...

To some, their faith really matters. But can they honestly say that they have heard God, without any reasonable doubt? What IS faith, but belief in that which is unseen and unproven. If someone has actually heard God and KNEW it was God, without a doubt, then they would no longer have "faith", but truth.

Abraham heard God.. fed Him.. sat in a tent and had lunch and talked with Him.. yet we are called to have the faith of Abraham, because he had faith.

Faith is more than just believing in the existence of a silent, invisible God - it is trusting that His promises are true, and believing that He will make good on them when the time comes. It is maintaining a steady course that He has set forth when the road is full of rocks and potholes that shake us when we hit them. It is trusting Him, and not trusting what we see or hear or think we know.

Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.
Proverbs 3:5-6

Straight? Yes. Smooth? No.

Why is it that pretty much every religion has the aspect of "faith"?

Any good knock-off of an original manages to keep key attributes of the original before repackaging it and selling it to any sucker who comes along. The more that knock-off can meet the demand for a more flexible god, or what ever the "market demand" at the time might be, the more successful it will be.

I found it extremely fascinating that she had constant struggles with feeling God's presence, even questioning whether or not God even existed. She didn't feel God's presence even in her great faith. She did perservere though.

Very true! A lot of people expect every true Christian (or at least everyone they consider to be a true Christian) to feel God's presence as tangibly as I feel the keyboard at my fingertips, and that just doesn't happen. I will encourage you to persevere, though, leaning not on your own understanding.

I haven't felt or seen God active in my life. Especially in this past horror that I experienced, and still bare the wounds of. The person who caused it to happen, . . . . the person who SINNED, is blessed WAY more than she deserves. Justice was not done in my life. If it was a test, then God made it a MUCH harder test for me to pass.

Why blame God for what your wife did to you? It's not God's fault, and really, there wasn't anything He could do to stop it, either. And before you wonder if I really know what I'm talking about, please check out my introduction (my history is in a post further down the thread). I'm in a very, very similar boat to yours, so here goes.

Your wife is not a puppet, to be mastered and danced by God the way you want Him to make her act. She is a free agent, the same as you. One of the hazards of free will is the ability to make choices that go against what God established, and if God can override that free will, grab the strings, and make us dance however He wants whenever He wants, then it isn't free will anymore. God ceases to be our loving savior, and becomes our domineering tyrant.

What your wife did was wrong, and it grieves His heart to see her do that to you and to herself. But it is not within His power to manipulate her to act the way you want her to act.

 

[polysci006]

polysci, . . . you are my "voice of reason" here. Thank you for that!

For a moment, pause, and think about what it takes to even accept there is such a thing as "reason".

Think about what reason is based on.

The limited perspective and understanding of fallible man?

 

[Veritas]

For a moment, pause, and think about what it takes to even accept there is such a thing as "reason".

Think about what reason is based on.

The limited perspective and understanding of fallible man?

Yes, our perspective is limited, as well as our understanding. And our fallible nature hinders us. But do we reject the existance of reason because of that? I would say we should not...that would be unreasonable. Reason, is based on Truth. ....that something is true, that something else is not.

 

[Orion]

Those of us who have faith are attempting to encourage Orion to plant a mustard seed. That is the only way it grows. Orion, if he even has the seed, is refusing to plant it and whines because he has no harvest, and does not believe that there is any such thing as a harvest even if you plant the seed, so what is the use. Yet he comes into these forums day after day after day with new threads that basically say the same thing."Hath God really said..."

Orion can pull passages out of Scripture quicker than the devil and say "I have a a problem understanding this verse; passage; etc; as if he is seeking understanding. When it is explained, he challenges what was given.

Poor Poor Pitiful Orion claims he does not like where he is in his faith. He tells us repeatedly that he does not like where he is in his faith. Yet when those among the body of Christ tell him how to move from where he is and grow, he sticks out his lip, crosses his arms, and says "NO!"

Orion claims that he wishes that his faith were different, but does not want to do anything to make it any different. And he calls polysci006 his voice of reason. polysci006, who stood up for Orion and made it known that the words of Jesus Christ were offensive and made no sense to them.

Poor Orion is standing in the 123 boat, casting out baited hooks all over the forum.
I am wondering if the Mods are smelling something fishy yet.

You know, . . . . I could care less about what you think of me, . . . gabby. What I see now is that you have no concern over someone who has struggles, expecting them to just "see things your way". You have NO RIGHT to see my life as "whining"!! You have NO IDEA what I've gone through and you have the gaul to post a sarcastic post that is on the level of the best sinners out there.

I'm glad that YOU aren't the "poster child" for those who are Christian!!

I will no longer respond to any of your posts because I have seen your heart and it is not what I care for.

 

[Orion]

Why blame God for what your wife did to you? It's not God's fault, and really, there wasn't anything He could do to stop it, either. And before you wonder if I really know what I'm talking about, please check out my introduction (my history is in a post further down the thread). I'm in a very, very similar boat to yours, so here goes.

Your wife is not a puppet, to be mastered and danced by God the way you want Him to make her act. She is a free agent, the same as you. One of the hazards of free will is the ability to make choices that go against what God established, and if God can override that free will, grab the strings, and make us dance however He wants whenever He wants, then it isn't free will anymore. God ceases to be our loving savior, and becomes our domineering tyrant.

What your wife did was wrong, and it grieves His heart to see her do that to you and to herself. But it is not within His power to manipulate her to act the way you want her to act.

I read your introduction, polysci. It seems we do have something in common. I am sorry to hear about what happened, and I sorely understand exactly where you are coming from. In my situation, I loved her, loved being with her, we always got along, and had a lot of fun together. What she did was sudden and crushed my spirit. Often I feel like I'm living the lyrics to the song "Praise You In This Storm", by Casting Crowns. Not feeling God, . . . wishing that He would "save the day", but living day to day in the pain of it. It is really hard to get excited about anything. Just last month, I finished up a degree (that I had been working on, off and on since the late 1980's) and even that didn't lift my spirit. I know it is something I just need to put behind me and walk away from and I am attempting to do that, but the weight of what happened, and because I miss what we had so very much, it has been most difficult on me. I know that a lot of people go through this, so I'm not alone. I have no desire to "put a gun to my head", so that's a good thing. And I do have a small bit of faith or else I wouldn't be searching still.

Anyway, thank you for giving me good words. It's been said that, in time, even bad situations can give way to victory, when God sees that time as "now".

What did you learn from your experience?

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Orion,
You are in a Christian forum. The Christians here have a relationship with God. We can tell you how to get there. You don't wanna go. God won't force you.

Walk a mile in my shoes.
Orion wants to know about Moses and the Prophets in relationship to salvation, Deut. law concerning virgins, millennial reign, the rich man's physical body, why God designed us the way He did in relationship to primates, and your posts are full of statements such as this:

"I don't see this as a literal story of an actual event. "

As a Christian, I believe the Word of God. I have a relationship with God. I am willing to be used by God to reach other people that would like a relationship with God.

Orion,
What is YOUR GOAL? Do you seek understanding, or are you simply letting us know about the things that you do not understand?



**edit** (to try a new approach)

Orion, there are many threads and many post where you tell us what you do not believe, and what you do not understand.

PLEASE! Post for us what you do believe about God. What do you believe about Jesus Christ? The cross? Salvation? . What do you believe about the Bible? . What do you believe about prayer? Why do you believe it?

You see, what we are hearing is that the things that you believe are not working out for you and that you would like for things to change. How do you believe that things are going to change for the better for you?

 

[Orion]

I'm pretty much done with this thread. I am sorry that some on here have a problem believing my sincerety. I am sorry that I am not "falling into the Christian mold". If I did, it would be a lie unto myself. I will have to walk my spiritual life the only way I can, and may start another post about what I feel that is. But as for a "relationship with God/Jesus", having faith that it is a real relationship isn't something that I will be able to see. "Having faith" that what I read is "God speaking to me", or my prayers as a "conversation with God" and the idea of a "still small voice" as "God speaking to me", when all of it could just be myself, . . . with nothing tangible to make me know that it ISN'T me, such things have left me unsatisfied. I just don't feel it as anything personal.

Having said that, I am still open to something real. Because God loves me, I know I won't be ultimately disappointed because I am at least honest before God.

 

[Vic C.]

... Orion, there are many threads and many post where you tell us what you do not believe, and what you do not understand.

PLEASE! Post for us what you do believe about God. What do you believe about Jesus Christ? The cross? Salvation? . What do you believe about the Bible? . What do you believe about prayer? Why do you believe it?

You see, what we are hearing is that the things that you believe are not working out for you and that you would like for things to change. How do you believe that things are going to change for the better for you?

I think what gabby suggested here is an excellent idea, if you are willing to do as suggested. It will help us... and you, narrow things down. Maybe then, we can see if what is troubling you is really essential to the core of your faith.

Did I ever post this for you?

http://www.christianlyricsonline.com/ar ... lor-9.html

We can't possibly get to know God the same way we may know a loved one, family or close friends. Not in this lifetime anyway.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

... But as for a "relationship with God/Jesus", having faith that it is a real relationship isn't something that I will be able to see...

When you are ready to do it His way, He will be waiting for you. He will be right where He has always been.

 

[unred typo]

quote by Orion on Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:21 am
You know, . . . . I could care less about what you think of me, . . . gabby. What I see now is that you have no concern over someone who has struggles, expecting them to just "see things your way". You have NO RIGHT to see my life as "whining"!! You have NO IDEA what I've gone through and you have the gaul to post a sarcastic post that is on the level of the best sinners out there.

I'm glad that YOU aren't the "poster child" for those who are Christian!!

I will no longer respond to any of your posts because I have seen your heart and it is not what I care for.

It is callous attitudes like Gabby’s and Heidi’s that have turned off so many from attending the local churches today. Without love, we are just clanging cymbals and tinkering bells. The lack of attendance to these Laodicean institutions of coldness does not bother me because their candles have gone out and they have no light to share anymore anyways. Your pain and sincerity is all too evident in your posts and one would have to be deaf, blind and dumb not to recognize it. It is in adversity that faith is born so hang in there, brother.

Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

 

[Orion]

Thanks, unred type.

I'm sure that God doesn't dispise my thoughts or heart. I have honest questions, many of which have hard answers, or no answers at all, yet they are there. . . . . Fortunately, I have not come to a place of rejection. Yet, it is hard to stand in the face of those who would rebuke, because of my questions/statements. And I'm fine with the rebukes, as long as they are done without attacks. Using words like "whining" is very condescending and uncalled for, and does not denote a Christian attiitude.

Vic, I may start a thread about where I am and what I can believe in.