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I do not come to abolish the Law, but FULFILL it.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Fedusenko
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The purpose of the law? Because of transgressions. Last till coming of the seed. Gal.3:19.

The law was the school master bringing us to Christ, Gal.3:23,24. It was written for our learning, Rom.154. It showed God's faithfulness and that we too can be faithful. It showed our need for God as man knew but very little of Him. The law was not destroyed but fulfilled.
 
The purpose of the law? Because of transgressions. Last till coming of the seed. Gal.3:19.

The law was the school master bringing us to Christ, Gal.3:23,24. It was written for our learning, Rom.154. It showed God's faithfulness and that we too can be faithful. It showed our need for God as man knew but very little of Him. The law was not destroyed but fulfilled.

Well, that is certainly one way to do away with illegal behavior, do away with the law and make it legal.
 
The purpose of the law? Because of transgressions. Last till coming of the seed. Gal.3:19.

The law was the school master bringing us to Christ, Gal.3:23,24. It was written for our learning, Rom.154. It showed God's faithfulness and that we too can be faithful. It showed our need for God as man knew but very little of Him. The law was not destroyed but fulfilled.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Jer 7:23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

What was added? The law of sacrifices because of disobedience. The lamb sacrificed on the altar was a perfect type of Christ. Reading the whole 7th chapter of Jeremiah is instructive and right about now would be a great time to review Ex 12, and think about the Passover in 31 AD. Psa 22, Isa 52:14-15, Isa 53 and the gospel accounts of the sacrifice of Christ help shed light on what it costs to break God's law.
 
Just to continue with Gal 3:19, if a law was added because of transgressions, there must have been a law that caused the transgressions...

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Paul plainly says here that where there is no law, there is no transgression, so, there must have been transgressions.

So if a law was added because of sin (transgression of the law)...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

There must have been law. In fact there must have been law from Adam to Moses...

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Because...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Either there was law from Adam's time or Adam did not sin...

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

So one cannot say that the law was added at Sinai, it was in force prior to Adam...

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
 
"Retired" is a good word describing the law. No one has said the law was destroyed, but fulfilled. If a thing is retired its not to be necessarily concluded that its destroyed.
 
Webb is correct - the Scriptures clearly teach that the Law of Moses is indeed "retired".

Lemme see here, you and Webb say the law is retired. Jesus says...

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Sorry boys, I gotta go with Christ on this one.
 
"Retired" is a good word describing the law. No one has said the law was destroyed, but fulfilled. If a thing is retired its not to be necessarily concluded that its destroyed.

Hmmm, then I guess anything goes. Right?
 
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
"Heaven and earth" is not to be taken as literally meaning "sky and planet." It is a reference to the Temple. Look it up.

And one more thing: the book of Hebrews addresses this issue in much greater detail (the passing of the Law) than any other book of the NT combined.
 
"Heaven and earth" is not to be taken as literally meaning "sky and planet." It is a reference to the Temple. Look it up.

No it is not, but at any rate, the temple was destroyed in 70 AD not 31 AD. At any rate...

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

When is this occuring? If it has already passed, then you and I must have been left out.
 
No it is not, but at any rate, the temple was destroyed in 70 AD not 31 AD. At any rate...

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

When is this occuring? If it has already passed, then you and I must have been left out.
Do you men this city;

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
 
"Retired" is a good word describing the law. No one has said the law was destroyed, but fulfilled. If a thing is retired its not to be necessarily concluded that its destroyed.
Important distinction!

Note the difference between the following:

1. I (Jesus) came to do away with a bad law that is simply the wrong way to do things - so it needs to be destroyed;

2. I (Jesus) came to complete the job of the law - to "fulfill" it in this sense. Once the job is done, the law can be retired, having played its part.

I suggest option 2 is the Biblically correct one.
 
Lemme see here, you and Webb say the law is retired. Jesus says...

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Sorry boys, I gotta go with Christ on this one.
I have already addressed this in another thread. Here is the argument:

Jesus was a product of his times and culture and I suggest that we in the modern west have been a little careless in understanding the implications of this. On a surface reading, Matthew 5:18 is indeed a challenge to those of us who think that, at least in a certain specific sense, the Law of Moses has been retired. Those who hold the opposing view have their own challenges to face, such as Ephesians 2:15 (and Romans 7) which, to me, unambiguously declare the abolition of the Law of Moses, at least in terms of “rules and regulationsâ€.

Here is Matthew 5:17-19 in the NASB:

Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

How can one read this text and possibly think that the prescriptions of the Law of Moses do not remain in force, given that heaven and earth are still here?

I think that there is a way to faithfully read this text and still claim that Law of Moses was retired 2000 years ago as Paul seems to so forcefully argue that it was (e.g. Eph 2:15). My proposal hinges on the assertion that in Hebrew culture apocalyptic “end of the world†language was commonly used in a specifically metaphorical mode for the specific purposes of investing commonplace events with their theological significance.

This is not mere speculation – we have concrete evidence that this was so. Isaiah writes:

10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light


What was going on? Babylon was being destroyed, never to be rebuilt. There are other examples of such metaphorical “end of the world†imagery being used to describe much more “mundane†events within the present space-time manifold.

So it is possible that Jesus is not referring to the destruction of matter, space, and time as the criteria for the retirement of the Law. But what might He mean here? What is the real event for which “heaven and earth passing away†is an apocalyptic metaphor.

I would appeal to the phrase “until all is accomplished†and point the reader to Jesus’ proclamation that “It is accomplished!†as He breathed His last on the Cross. Perhaps this is what Jesus is referring to. I believe that seeing it that way allows us to take Paul at his word in his many statements which clearly denote the work of Jesus as the point in time at which Law of Moses was retired.

I present the above as a plausibility argument that there may be a way to legitimately read Jesus here as not declaring that the Law of Moses will remain in force basically to the end of time.
 
Do you men this city;

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Nope, the New Jerusalem at the time of the New Heavens and New Earth of Rev 21. Clearly a future time frame because if this is the new heavens and new earth, we got ripped off.
 
The Biblical case is clear – the Law of Moses has been retired. In this post, I intend to identify the elements of the argument for the retirement of the Law of Moses. Let me be clear: I am not, in the present post, going to substantially defend the assertions I make; This post is simply a statement of my position. Relevant arguments can be provided later.

Elements of the Case for the Retirement of the Law of Moses:

1. Paul clearly declares its abolition in Ephesians 2;

2. Paul clearly declares its abolition in Galatians 3. In this chapter, Paul declares the law to be a “paidagogosâ€, a kind of male babysitter whose task comes to an end when supervised child reaches adulthood;

3. In Colossians, Paul refers to the law as nailed to the cross;

4. In Romans 10, Paul refers to Jesus as the “end of the lawâ€;

5. In Romans 7, Paul refers to how we no longer serve “in the manner of the written codeâ€;

6. The Law of Moses was only ever given to Jews, and a central Pauline theme is that God wants to make it clear that membership in the “true covenant†family is open to all. So, as per Ephesians 3, he argues that the Law has to be done away with precisely it functioned to set the Jew apart from the Gentile. Paul’s theology does not allow for this – there is now no distinction between Jew and Gentile, so there can be no more Law of Moses which was for Jews only;

7. Paul believes that God gave the Law of Moses for a specific reason: It caused “sin†to be concentrated and built up in the nation of Israel. And yes, I am serious. Why would God do this? So that this sin could then be passed on to Israel’s representative – Jesus – and dealt with on the cross. Once that goal is achieved, there is no more need for the Law – it has fulfilled its “dark†purpose of making Israel the “place†where the sin of the world get concentrated.

8. To extract the essence of the previous two points: The Law of Moses was given by God for a very specific goal (see point 7). Once that goal has been achieved, the law has been fulfilled. So we can, of course, thinks of the law being “fulfilled†and also retired. This is a key concept. Consider chemotherapy: It has a goal – the curing of the patient. When that goal is achieved, do we keep giving chemotherapy to the patient for the rest of his life? Of course not! It begs the very question at issue to presume that the Law of Moses is a set of timeless truths that last forever. It is clear that Paul does not believe this.

There may be other points, and / or the above could perhaps be more carefully reworked. More later, hopefully.
 
I have already addressed this in another thread. Here is the argument:

Jesus was a product of his times and culture

Jesus Christ was God, John 1:1-14. He was the one who made all things, Eph 3:9. He was the one who spoke to Moses and led Israel out of Egypt and gave the law, John 8:58. To say that Christ was a product of His time and culture is just plain wrong...

Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Christ was not the product of His times and culture, He was God. This is the end of this matter and I have nothing more to say to anyone who would make such a statement.
 
Nope, the New Jerusalem at the time of the New Heavens and New Earth of Rev 21. Clearly a future time frame because if this is the new heavens and new earth, we got ripped off.
So you think the New Jerusalem and the heavenly Jerusalem are different places/things ?

How many places can qualify as 'the city of God' ?
 
An important point: As per my preceding post, there is a strong Biblical tradition of using "end of the world" cosmic imagery to describe socio-political change in the here and now. If you do not account for this, it is, of course, easy to read the Matthew 5 text as declaring that the law will last until "heaven and earth" literally come to an end.

We are being quite patronizing to Jesus and other writers of Scripture when we do not allow them to use literary devices - as if this were beyond them - and insist on reading everthing literally.

Again - we know that Old Testament writers have used such "end of the world" language to describe things that have indeed already happened.

Such as the fall of Babylon.

Let's respect the Bible and not squash it down into a fundamentalist mindset that ignores the rich literary devices that are used in it.
 
This is the end of this matter and I have nothing more to say to anyone who would make such a statement.
You have simply ignored the points I made in my argument. You are free to do so, but I suggest it does not reflect well on your case.

Are you seriously suggeting that Jesus was not embedded in a particular culture?
 
And Jesus fulfilled the law. "Sorry, I gotta go with Christ" on this.
 
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