I do not come to abolish the Law, but FULFILL it.

[smaller]

An important point: As per my preceding post, there is a strong Biblical tradition of using "end of the world" cosmic imagery to describe socio-political change in the here and now. If you do not account for this, it is, of course, easy to read the Matthew 5 text as declaring that the law will last until "heaven and earth" literally come to an end.

That is exactly what Jesus and 'all' the Apostles taught:

2 Peter 3:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

We are being quite patronizing to Jesus and other writers of Scripture when we do not allow them to use literary devices - as if this were beyond them - and insist on reading everthing literally.

Jesus Himself said that THE LAW stands until the ABOVE happens. Why? Because the LAW is and REMAINS against ALL SIN, EVIL and LAWLESSNESS and will remain so until the FINAL DESTRUCTION. Just as HE So Said.

Again - we know that Old Testament writers have used such "end of the world" language to describe things that have indeed already happened.

Such as the fall of Babylon.

There is a shaking that will transpire FIRST, and then MYSTERY BABYLON, the mother of ALL SIN and INIQUITY shall fall and be utterly destroyed.

Let's respect the Bible and not squash it down into a fundamentalist mindset that ignores the rich literary devices that are used in it.

Oh, it's going to be a VERY REAL destruction, I can assure you from the scriptures and regardless of fancy literary contrivances of men that seek to avoid that conclusion.

s

 

[Webb]

John 8:32--When Drew said Jesus was "the product of His culture" I didn't understand it to mean what you intimate. Of course, being God He supercedes that, BUT He did exist for some 30 years in an earthly culture, and dealt with it and all cultures.

 

[Webb]

Drew, your points are well taken. However may I suggest that they will be covered up by posts by many posters. May I suggest that you offer John 8:32 the opportunity to study this in the one-on-one forum?

 

[Drew]

Some here have been arguing that Jesus was somehow disconnected from the specific culture of His time - that He, as God, somehow stood "above" it.

The evidence suggests otherwise - Jesus was a real 1st century Palestinian Jew. So when I suggest that Jesus used the literary devices of His tradition, such as the use of apocalyptic end-of-the-world imagery to describe what are actually not "literal end of the world events", I am only stating what we should expect.

Consider this statement from Jesus:

As these men were going away, Jesus began to speak to the crowds about John, “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind?

The "reed" was the symbol of Herod. Jesus knows this - and is tapping into this to make a point. So here we have but one case where Jesus is speaking to the people in their own cultural context.

So, again, there is every reason to expect that when Jesus says "the law will not pass away till heaven and earth pass away", He is not intending to say that the Law will last till heaven and earth undergo a literal demise.

As is clear from the Old Testament, and even from non-Biblical sources - this was a figure of speech intended to invest commonplace events with their theological significance.

Jesus is saying the law will not "pass away" until something significant happens.

That "something" is the radical transformation of history that took place in the crucifixion- resurrection context.

 

[Drew]

John 8:32--When Drew said Jesus was "the product of His culture" I didn't understand it to mean what you intimate. Of course, being God He supercedes that, BUT He did exist for some 30 years in an earthly culture, and dealt with it and all cultures.

I think your picture of Jesus is probably not quite correct in this respect. All I am saying is that, as a first century Palestinian Jew, Jesus was familiar, as were all other 1st century Palestinian Jews, with the culture of His time and place.

This should really not be shocking. Do you think Jesus thought like a 21st American? Or a 17th century Englishman?

I highly, highly doubt it. He lived in a particular place and time and related to his fellow Jews in their own cultural terms. This is not simply common-sense, it is supported Biblically - Jesus repeatedly uses elements of His specifically Jewish world to preach the Kingdom of God message.

He talked about fig trees and mustard seeds (elements of 1st century Palestinian culture)- not Chevrolet Camaros and Visa cards!

It should not be that controversial to suggest that Jesus was a "man of His time".

 

[Webb]

At times I fail to make myself understood. I completely agree with what you say about Jesus and culture.

 

[Drew]

Further evidence of Jesus using "end of the world" language to denote events in the "here and now". From Matthew 24:

But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from [r]the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other

Most think this is "second coming" stuff.

It is not - there are things in the chapter that rule out such things:

1. The statement that the temple before their eyes will be destroyed. And it was - in 70 AD, not at the end of time;

2. The statement that the present generation would see all these things - and they did, if we properly understand this "end of the world" language properly.

This entire chapter is about 1st century events, not the 2nd coming. I can make the relevant arguments if anybody wants.

Again, in keeping with Old Testament precedent, Jesus uses colourful end of the world metaphors to refer to something in the here and now. What is he referring to?

The imminent - yes, within a generation - overthrow of the nation of Israel.

So - when Jesus says that the Law will not pass away till the world comes to an end, we should be careful to note how He (Jesus) uses 'end of the world' language here in Mattew 24 - to refer to the imminent defeat of Israel.

This is all about letting the text tell us what it wants to tell us, rather than stifling the text in the straight-jacket of literalism.

 

[Webb]

Drew, you said all of Matt.24 is about "1st century events", yet the disciples asked 2 questions in vs. 3. Where does Jesus answer the question of His 2nd coming and the end of the world?

 

[Stormcrow]

You have simply ignored the points I made in my argument. You are free to do so, but I suggest it does not reflect well on your case.

Are you seriously suggeting that Jesus was not embedded in a particular culture?

{4} But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, {5} so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Galatians 4:4-5 (NASB)

Nothing human or belonging to a particular culture about Jesus here. Move along.

By the way, be careful about how you address John. He's one of the 2 witnesses of the "great tribulation."

I believe that I am one of the witnesses spoken of in Revelation. I was called by God in the 7th month of 2011, which I believe marked the start of the tribulation.

 

[John 8:32]

By the way, be careful about how you address John. He's one of the 2 witnesses of the "great tribulation."

You seem to be unable to distinguish between John 8:32 and johnthewitness so how in the world could I expect you to put together any cogent thoughts.

 

[Elijah674]

Further evidence of Jesus using "end of the world" language to denote events in the "here and now". From Matthew 24:

But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from [r]the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other

Most think this is "second coming" stuff.

It is not - there are things in the chapter that rule out such things:

1. The statement that the temple before their eyes will be destroyed. And it was - in 70 AD, not at the end of time;

2. The statement that the present generation would see all these things - and they did, if we properly understand this "end of the world" language properly.

This entire chapter is about 1st century events, not the 2nd coming. I can make the relevant arguments if anybody wants.

Again, in keeping with Old Testament precedent, Jesus uses colourful end of the world metaphors to refer to something in the here and now. What is he referring to?

The imminent - yes, within a generation - overthrow of the nation of Israel.

So - when Jesus says that the Law will not pass away till the world comes to an end, we should be careful to note how He (Jesus) uses 'end of the world' language here in Mattew 24 - to refer to the imminent defeat of Israel.

This is all about letting the text tell us what it wants to tell us, rather than stifling the text in the straight-jacket of literalism.

Elijah here: You say..{quote:] Most think this is "second coming" stuff. [unquote]

God says:
Eccl. 3:14
[14] I know that, whatsoever God doeth, (or sayeth!) it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
[15] That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

Rev. 22:17
[17] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

[20] He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

And your above [posting] say's for fact, what??? ( It is not - there are things in the chapter that rule out such things..' )

 

[Stormcrow]

You seem to be unable to distinguish between John 8:32 and johnthewitness so how in the world could I expect you to put together any cogent thoughts.

LOL! My bad. It's just that all you "John's" look the same to me! :toofunny

 

[Stormcrow]

This is all about letting the text tell us what it wants to tell us, rather than stifling the text in the straight-jacket of literalism.

Yeah. Jesus NEVER used metaphors to convey His point!

{19} Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." John 2:19 (NASB)

Ooops! Now where did that come from?!?!?

 

[Stormcrow]

{18} "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Matthew 5:18 (NASB)

{22} because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Luke 21:22 (NASB)

{32} "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. {33} "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. Luke 21:32-33 (NASB)

{1} Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. Revelation 21:1 (NASB)

See that passage from Luke??? It puts all these other verses in context.

And what is the context of the passage from Luke?

{20} "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Luke 21:20 (NASB)

The desolation of Jerusalem and destruction of its Temple is the eschatology of Christ and the apostles.

It cannot be any plainer.

 

[Hitch]

Drew, you said all of Matt.24 is about "1st century events", yet the disciples asked 2 questions in vs. 3. Where does Jesus answer the question of His 2nd coming and the end of the world?

To get here takes a long bridge. It is apparent the disciples are yet to grasp the idea of the cross , much less the Second Advent. Another question would be why would Jesus waste time telling them about something thousands of years in the future when they were about to witness the cross,resurrection and within a lifetime the Destruction ? Not to mention that the birth of the Christian church takes place at the same time and they are all right in the center of it.

All that to say ,on this ,I agree with Drew the first century is in focus here.

 

[Webb]

Perhaps and perhaps not. I do not think your or his position is altogather correct and would anticipate hearing from Drew on this.

 

[smaller]

The notion that Jesus fulfilled the Law, therefore all believers are off the hook, was certainly not presented by either Jesus or the Apostles:

Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us-

Romans 13:10
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The Law itself is NOT one dimensional. The Law also CONTINUES to work against SIN, which same is of the DEVIL. That working is not viewable with FLESH EYES. That working is riled by the LAW to insert temptation into the mind/hearts of any who pick the Law up and simply READ IT.

Jesus gave us an exact example of this fact, even using the LAW, the WORD OF GOD as a PARABLE. Jesus employed A PARABLE of this matter because of the fact that we are to set our eyes on the FACTS of the INTANGIBLE power of DARKNESS:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Many believers almost instantly 'excuse' themselves from the fact above and say in their own hearts, "Well, I'm a believer. This doesn't happen to ME."

I would submit that the LIAR has already covered such MINDS and HEARTS with his LIE. And if you 'are allowed' by God to see this matter factually, you can not reasonably look at yourself only. You now have an entity that STOLE from you within. It's not then JUST YOU. It is SATAN working ADVERSELY against the WORD OF GOD, the LAW in particular.

Any handler of the LAW who departs from the workings of darkness that transpires INTERNALLY really has no understanding of the LAW whatsoever. Such maintain FALSE VIEWS because 'all the facts' are not on their table.

They make no account for the UNSEEN powers working ADVERSELY to the LAW. And that is in fact what SATAN in their own hearts is leading them to as his blinded PAWNS.

Once a believer sees this fact, THEN their real desire to not be a blinded slave OF SATAN WILL COME FORTH from God in Christ.

If however a believer can't FESS UP to this Truth, then the Truth simply isn't in them to speak the FACTS of it. Unpleasant, I know. But it's just a fact. We all have sin and sin is OF THE DEVIL. So deal with it.

s

 

[Drew]

Drew, you said all of Matt.24 is about "1st century events", yet the disciples asked 2 questions in vs. 3. Where does Jesus answer the question of His 2nd coming and the end of the world?

Here is the relevant text from the NASB:

As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?â€

We always need to be on guard for hidden assumptions. Here, one could make the following assumptions:

1. Jesus "coming" refers to His 2nd coming, when He "physically" returns (this has yet to happen;

2. The "end of the age" denotes the "end of the world".

I suggest that both these assumptions are incorrect and would assert the following:

1. The term "coming" can, I believe, denote not a "physical" coming, but rather a kind of royal enthronement - I can make the relevant argument in another post. I believe that the Bible teaches that Jesus was indeed "enthroned as King" back in the 1st century, and is yet to come physically a 2nd time. So if "coming" is seen this way, the disciples are really asking "When will you be king". Or even if that is not what they are asking, Jesus responds in a manner that has his "coming" mean His enthronement, and not a literal physical return. There is a lot more that needs to be said here, but I hope you get the general sense of what I am saying;

2. The "end of the age" could mean the end of "this time of occupation under the Romans". We have this unhealthy tendency to project our expectations about the literal end of the world onto first century Jews (such as the disciples) who, I suggest, did not buy into "end of the world" theology (and I think they are correct in this respect - I believe Christians today are mistaken if they think the world will end) and were more concerned about the end of the age where Israel was enslaved. So, I suggest the disciples are really asking about this, and the end of the world.

Whether you agree with me or not, I trust you agree that we need to be very careful about unexamined assumptions that we bring to the reading of a certain text. And, to put a finer point on it in the context of this particular text, we need to remember who Jesus was talking to and what their issues were - not ours. First century Jews were thinking in terms of a coming age where Israel was free - they were not thinking about the "end of the world" as we, in the 21st century, think.

 

[Drew]

{4} But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, {5} so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Galatians 4:4-5 (NASB)

Nothing human or belonging to a particular culture about Jesus here. Move along. "

We appear to both agree with the proposition that Jesus needs to be understood in terms of His ministry to the Israel of His day and free ourselves of this idea that Jesus was actually "speaking directly to us" across the centuries.

He was not - He was a first century Palestinian Jew who addressed His own people in their own terms. I am, of course, not denying that Jesus' teachings are relevant for us today. But we need to be wary of anachronistic projection of our 21st western issues onto a Palestinian Jew of the first century.

 

[Drew]

{18} "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Matthew 5:18 (NASB) .......

It cannot be any plainer.

I am not entirely sure I understand your argument, but, based on other posts of yours, I am fairly confident that we agree that "heaven and earth passing away" language is metaphorical in nature.

As per earlier posts of mine, this claim is not without defence - there is solid Biblical (and non-Biblical) precedent for Jews (like Isaiah) using such fanciful terminology to denote socio-political change, not the literal end of the world.