I do not come to abolish the Law, but FULFILL it.

[Stormcrow]

We appear to both agree with the proposition that Jesus needs to be understood in terms of His ministry to the Israel of His day and free ourselves of this idea that Jesus was actually "speaking directly to us" across the centuries.

He was not - He was a first century Palestinian Jew who addressed His own people in their own terms. I am, of course, not denying that Jesus' teachings are relevant for us today. But we need to be wary of anachronistic projection of our 21st western issues onto a Palestinian Jew of the first century.

Which is just another way of saying virtually nothing in the Bible was written to us. God preserved His word for us (and both generations past and future) so that we could understand the gospel.

 

[Stormcrow]

I am not entirely sure I understand your argument, but, based on other posts of yours, I am fairly confident that we agree that "heaven and earth passing away" language is metaphorical in nature.

As per earlier posts of mine, this claim is not without defence - there is solid Biblical (and non-Biblical) precedent for Jews (like Isaiah) using such fanciful terminology to denote socio-political change, not the literal end of the world.

We use the same kind of hyperbolic language: "earth-shattering" (does the earth literally break into millions of pieces whenever something is said to shake us?), "mind-blowing" (do brains really explode over the things we see today?)

I addressed these issues here:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=40242&p=603630&viewfull=1#post603630

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=40242&p=603982&viewfull=1#post603982

 

[Stormcrow]

I am not entirely sure I understand your argument, but, based on other posts of yours, I am fairly confident that we agree that "heaven and earth passing away" language is metaphorical in nature.

I don't have much time, but let me walk you through these verses given some basic background.

{18} "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Matthew 5:18 (NASB)

Most people think there is only one - or at most two - sides to the Law of Moses: the 10 commandments and the sacrificial and dietary laws (ordinances). We all know about the blessings Israel was told they would get from keeping the Law. What most people don't understand is that there was a penalty for not keeping it.

Those penalties are found in Deuteronomy 28 and Leviticus 26. For the sake of time and space, I'm not going to quote them all, but the verses from Leviticus 26 need to be cited again:

{14} 'But if you do not obey Me and do not carry out all these commandments, {15} if, instead, you reject My statutes, and if your soul abhors My ordinances so as not to carry out all My commandments, and so break My covenant, {16} I, in turn, will do this to you: I will appoint over you a sudden terror, consumption and fever that will waste away the eyes and cause the soul to pine away; also, you will sow your seed uselessly, for your enemies will eat it up.

{17} ~'I will set My face against you so that you will be struck down before your enemies; and those who hate you will rule over you, and you will flee when no one is pursuing you.

{18} ~'If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. {19} ~'I will also break down your pride of power; I will also make your sky like iron and your earth like bronze.

{20} ~'Your strength will be spent uselessly, for your land will not yield its produce and the trees of the land will not yield their fruit.

{21} 'If then, you act with hostility against Me and are unwilling to obey Me, I will increase the plague on you seven times according to your sins. {22} ~'I will let loose among you the beasts of the field, which will bereave you of your children and destroy your cattle and reduce your number so that your roads lie deserted.

{23} 'And if by these things you are not turned to Me, but act with hostility against Me, {24} then I will act with hostility against you; and I, even I, will strike you seven times for your sins.

{25} ~'I will also bring upon you a sword which will execute vengeance for the covenant; and when you gather together into your cities, I will send pestilence among you, so that you shall be delivered into enemy hands.

{26} ~'When I break your staff of bread, ten women will bake your bread in one oven, and they will bring back your bread in rationed amounts, so that you will eat and not be satisfied. {27} 'Yet if in spite of this you do not obey Me, but act with hostility against Me, {28} then I will act with wrathful hostility against you, and I, even I, will punish you seven times for your sins.

{29} ~'Further, you will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters you will eat. {30} ~'I then will destroy your high places, and cut down your incense altars, and heap your remains on the remains of your idols, for My soul shall abhor you.

{31} ~'I will lay waste your cities as well and will make your sanctuaries desolate, and I will not smell your soothing aromas. {32} ~'I will make the land desolate so that your enemies who settle in it will be appalled over it. {33} ~'You, however, I will scatter among the nations and will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become waste. Leviticus 26:14-33 (NASB)

With this passage in mind, look at Christ's words again:

until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished

Then Luke again:

{20} "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near...{22} because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. Luke 21:20,22 (NASB)

Did God leave any unfinished business with apostate, 1st century Israel on the cross?

In other words, was there a part of the Law of Moses not fulfilled on the cross?

If yes, when was it finished? When was it fulfilled?

Now, notice one more curse in the penalty section of the Law:

I will also make your sky like iron and your earth like bronze.

The Greek words for "heaven and earth" in Matthew 5 are "ouranos" and "ges." These are translated elsewhere as "sky" and "land."

Coincidence?

 

[John 8:32]

Which is just another way of saying virtually nothing in the Bible was written to us. God preserved His word for us (and both generations past and future) so that we could understand the gospel.

Well in that case...

1Co 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

Why would God preserve His word for us if it was not written for us or meant for us. About like teaching the history of Swaziland in U.S. schools. Not much there for them.

 

[Drew]

And your above [posting] say's for fact, what??? ( It is not - there are things in the chapter that rule out such things..' )

Can't understand you.

 

[Hitch]

Well in that case...

1Co 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

Why would God preserve His word for us if it was not written for us or meant for us. About like teaching the history of Swaziland in U.S. schools. Not much there for them.

So go build and ark.

That wouldnt be any sillier that your complaint here.

 

[Drew]

The Greek words for "heaven and earth" in Matthew 5 are "ouranos" and "ges." These are translated elsewhere as "sky" and "land."

Coincidence?

You and I have very difficult communication styles, and I find the basic point of some of your posts difficult to discern.

In any event, it appears that we happen to agree on the "heaven and earth passing away" saying from Matthew 5 as to be understood not as a reference to a literal end of the world, but rather as a metaphorical device used to denote socio-political change.

 

[Drew]

Well in that case...

1Co 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

Why would God preserve His word for us if it was not written for us or meant for us. About like teaching the history of Swaziland in U.S. schools. Not much there for them.

I cannot speak for Stormcrow, but let me give you my "version". Jesus spoke to first-century Palestinian Jews. He did not speak to 21st century Americans, or 7th century Norwegians (if there were such people).

So we need to be careful how we apply Jesus' words to our particular world. When we are not careful in this way, all sorts of bad theology results, not least the failure to realize that "the law" is not some vague, abstract moral imperative but is, instead, the Law of Moses.

Another example: When Jesus says "render unto Ceasar what it Ceasar's and unto God what is God's", He is not endorsing separation of church and state - He is doing something entirely different that was grounded in the socio-cultural-political specificities of that time. It is not a timeless declaration of a principle of separation of church and state. I can get into the details if you like.

But it is exceedingly dangerous, and not legitimate anyway, to simply extract Jesus out of His cultural matrix and plunk Him down in our 21st century western world (assuming you are a westerner, like me).

None of this means that we cannot learn important things from what Jesus taught. But these teachings need to be properly translated into our time and culture.

 

[smaller]

So go build and ark.

That wouldnt be any sillier that your complaint here.

That's only a problem for viewers who can't see the spiritual aspects of Gods Words and insist on only a physical view.

In the case of the ARK, Peter gives us a very good picture of that matter and ALLEGORIZES it:

1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

One can look at the ARK as a matter of physicality OR we can see the LIKE FIGURE of OBEDIENCE in a GOOD CONSCIENCE toward God.

The false notion that physical events of the Old Testament in ANY FORM do not point to OTHER MATTERS SPIRITUAL is nothing more than shallow observations of the physical.

Paul tells us outright that there ARE other matters being shown throughout the O.T.

1 Corinthians 10:
11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Hope in what? A basic lesson of the O.T. is to TURN AWAY from EVIL, have a GOOD CONSCIENCE toward God in Christ, and our HOPE that the power of EVIL will eventually be utterly destroyed.

Y'all can stare at a physical ark built way back then, or a physical temple destroyed.

The facts are that ALL matters that were written of can EASILY be viewed SPIRITUALLY as well, and given in physical form that we may perceive the deeper matters of a good conscience toward God in Christ and the shunning of captivity by EVIL, which are INTERNAL MATTERS.

Gods Own Words of the Old Testament openly show they are INTERNAL MATTERS of the HEART. This should force any external physical view OFF that insistence.

Deuteronomy 6:6
And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart

Deuteronomy 11:18
Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart -

Paul taught this exact matter in Romans:

Deuteronomy 30:14
But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

So, DO WHAT? That is the only question. Some say 'do what' only means build arks and temples and kill animals and wear fancy colored robes. None of which has much of anything to do with the matters of a GOOD CONSCIENCE toward God in Christ and the turning away from EVIL IN HEART.

And no, none of that can be 'culturally defined' either. The request of The Word has not changed one little bit from the beginning.

enjoy!

s

 

[John 8:32]

So go build and ark.

That wouldnt be any sillier that your complaint here.

Actually, since the Bible was written to Jews, about Jews and for Jews, what is the point of discussing the Bible at all? It has no relevence for us in the 21st century. I also have a bridge you may be interested in buying.

 

[Stormcrow]

Actually, since the Bible was written to Jews, about Jews and for Jews, what is the point of discussing the Bible at all? It has no relevence for us in the 21st century.

Whether a document was written to us has little to do with it's relevance for us.

Let me repeat an earlier example I posted here:

To John Doe of the Central Baptist Church, Manhattan Kansas.

Dear Brother John...

I'm writing this to you to let you know I admire your faith greatly, but I'm concerned that your crops are dying because you are not irrigating them and, instead, have chosen to pray for rain every day for the past month because you believe that "by faith you can have anything from God."

John, God does not want your crops to die and your family to starve by waiting for rain when it is within your power to save them. Please, irrigate your crops, John. Then you and your family can enjoy God's blessings in the way in which He intended you to have them.

Please set a place at the table for me when the harvest comes in. I can't wait to try some of that sweet corn you planted.

Your brother in Christ,
Paul.

Was this letter addressed to you?

Unless your name is John Doe and you live in Manhattan, Kansas, it was not.

Paul here writes that he wants John to water his crops. Would that apply to you if you weren't a farmer? Nope.

Paul writes that he wants to come to dinner after the harvest to get some of John's sweet corn. Was Paul writing that to you? Does that apply to you?

Nope.

But there is a fundamental truth we can take from Paul's letter here and apply it universally:

Don't wait for God to do something He has given you the tools, talent and common sense to do for yourself!

Paul is not telling John to stop praying! Paul even praises John for his faith! But Paul is telling John that now is the time for him to act!

This is roughly the same style in which the apostle Paul wrote to the churches.

Such are the subtleties lost on the literalist mind.

 

[Stormcrow]

But it is exceedingly dangerous, and not legitimate anyway, to simply extract Jesus out of His cultural matrix and plunk Him down in our 21st century western world (assuming you are a westerner, like me).

None of this means that we cannot learn important things from what Jesus taught. But these teachings need to be properly translated into our time and culture.

I wonder how many of these people who go around screaming the Bible is written to us are missing an eye and one hand?

 

[Stormcrow]

You and I have very difficult communication styles, and I find the basic point of some of your posts difficult to discern.

The basic point is this (from the post to which you refer):

God had unfinished Old Covenant business with Israel: business that was not finished on the cross. The final judgment of Israel ("vengeance for the covenant", see Leviticus 26) was left to the Son, and it's this judgement that is seen in the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation.

"Heaven and earth" is metaphorical on the level that it describes the Temple, the OT dwelling place of God on earth (literally where heaven met earth), but the phrase also refers to the entire "heaven (sky) and earth (land)" of the land God gave to Abraham to give to his descendants, as it was all considered holy (sanctified, set apart) to both God and His Old Covenant people.

God's judgement wherein He used both the Babylonians and, later, Romans, to desolate the land works both metaphorically and practically speaking: the Temple (metaphorical) and the literal sky and land of Israel were desolated in both cases.

 

[smaller]

The basic point is this (from the post to which you refer):

God had unfinished Old Covenant business with Israel: business that was not finished on the cross. The final judgment of Israel ("vengeance for the covenant", see Leviticus 26) was left to the Son, and it's this judgement that is seen in the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation.

"Heaven and earth" is metaphorical on the level that it describes the Temple, the OT dwelling place of God on earth (literally where heaven met earth), but the phrase also refers to the entire "heaven (sky) and earth (land)" of the land God gave to Abraham to give to his descendants, as it was all considered holy (sanctified, set apart) to both God and His Old Covenant people.

God's judgement wherein He used both the Babylonians and, later, Romans, to desolate the land works both metaphorically and practically speaking: the Temple (metaphorical) and the literal sky and land of Israel were desolated in both cases.

Your claims are that the metaphors have ended.

They haven't.

Galatians 4:29
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

You can try to spin all your metaphors on a pile of rocks in Jerusalem 70 a.d. or upon a few Jews at that time.

The allegories run in an entirely different direction when it is applied personally, that is to our segment or part of the Temple/Body of Christ. Undoubtedly there have been many showings of Galatians 4:29 throughout the course of the text, but to say that it was the end of same in 70 a.d. is quite false.

s

 

[John 8:32]

Whether a document was written to us has little to do with it's relevance for us.

If the Bible is relevent to us, but it is only written to 1st century Jews and none of this applies to us today... Oh I am so confused.

 

[John 8:32]

Your claims are that the metaphors have ended.

They haven't.

Galatians 4:29
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

You can try to spin all your metaphors on a pile of rocks in Jerusalem 70 a.d. or upon a few Jews at that time.

The allegories run in an entirely different direction when it is applied personally, that is to our segment or part of the Temple/Body of Christ. Undoubtedly there have been many showings of Galatians 4:29 throughout the course of the text, but to say that it was the end of same in 70 a.d. is quite false.

s

Exactly smaller, we may disagree in some areas, but I think we are firmly on the same page here. If the whole of prophecy is about 70 AD, then rip about 1/3 of the pages from your Bible. Now, Mr. Preterist, tell me how you go about deciding which of the 2/3 of the pages left apply to the Jews of the 1st century and which pages are applicable today. Oh and along with that 1/3 you are going to rip out, you should include this one...

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Paul didn't really mean all scripture and he really didn't mean it was profitable for all. Oh and about that bridge...

 

[smaller]

Exactly smaller, we may disagree in some areas, but I think we are firmly on the same page here. If the whole of prophecy is about 70 AD, then rip about 1/3 of the pages from your Bible. Now, Mr. Preterist, tell me how you go about deciding which of the 2/3 of the pages left apply to the Jews of the 1st century and which pages are applicable today. Oh and along with that 1/3 you are going to rip out, you should include this one...

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Paul didn't really mean all scripture and he really didn't mean it was profitable for all. Oh and about that bridge...

The 'physical facts' of those born of the flesh persecuting those born of the Spirit has been a continuing fact from the beginning, and in fact is 'personal' to every person. That is what Paul taught in Galatians.

The LAW to be understood must be directed to the LAWLESSNESS that 'all' of us factually carry 'in our hearts.' Paul was not talking about some other person being the ones born of the flesh and us born of the Spirit. He goes on to point out quite clearly that the works of the flesh are carried BY BELIEVERS making that STUGGLE personal to all of us.

Where I part company with all legalists is where they claim that the sin 'we all' carry is LEGAL, when that in fact is an impossibility.

Making this even more personal, where the Word is sown, SATAN enters the heart to steal same, to BLIND us to his entry, to MASK his presence as being the presence of TEMPTATION.

The Law itself PROMPTS the tempter to enter our hearts and to tempt and to TRY to control us via SINNING.

No man will stand under the Law as JUSTIFIED because of that presence. This is what the LAW has taught me. The Law then KILLED ME because of that presence. The LAW divided me from what "I" factually carry in my flesh.

The one born of the flesh is THE TEMPTER who entered same being PROMPTED by the LAW.

Those who claim right standing UNDER LAW are only masking the presence of the TEMPTER with them who will NEVER be legal, obedient, graced or have faith.

This is what the LAW teaches by His Spirit.

If one falls on Jesus, the ROCK, they are DIVIDED from the workings of the TEMPTER. If however THE ROCK falls upon them, they are crushed together as the LIAR can not stand before God in Christ.

Those who do not understand that where The Word is sown, SATAN ENTERS the heart will NEVER understand THE LAW and what it does.

Matthew 21:44
And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Luke 20:18
Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

When we 'HEAR' The Word of God in Christ and BELIEVE what Jesus said happens, we are THEN BROKEN from that WORKING. We don't DECEIVE ourselves about what we CARRY in our FLESH, the child of the flesh, the TEMPTER.

The Law was always meant to expose this worker of iniquity IN OUR HEARTS.

Few will HEAR Jesus' Words on this matter because they DON'T BELIEVE IT HAPPENS TO THEM. When they don't it is because 'the god of this world' has BLINDED their minds to this FACT.

s

 

[Stormcrow]

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

At the time Paul wrote this, the NT didn't even exist! He was referring to the OT here!

And when any NT writer uses the word "now", he's not using it to mean 2,000 years later!

The ignorance of such things simply leaves one breathless. 2

 

[Stormcrow]

Oh I am so confused.

On that we can agree.

 

[smaller]

At the time Paul wrote this, the NT didn't even exist! He was referring to the OT here!

And when any NT writer uses the word "now", he's not using it to mean 2,000 years later!

The ignorance of such things simply leaves one breathless. 2

The only ignorance is having a 'mancentric' understanding.

Jesus gave us the facts of His Words. These facts are still applicable today. Why? Because SATAN and his messengers have not YET been sent to the infamous LAKE OF FIRE.

This is STILL what happens where The Word is sown:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Jesus OPENLY demonstrated the above to be A FACT, even speaking to CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL in the Pharisees.

Your judgment does not see SATAN in the hearts of the leaders of the TEMPLE. It only sees PEOPLE.

Such views are blind. If you say SATAN was destroyed and sent to the Lake of Fire in 70 a.d. you would be WELL outside of ORTHODOXY of just about any sort.

The Tempter, the 'god of this world' STILL operates in the hearts/minds of mankind and BLINDS unbelievers to the GOSPEL.

Your views account for NONE of that, period. You see only JUDGMENT COMPLETE at 70 a.d.

s