I give up on Lutheranism

[Elysian]

Any theology that involves predestination is dubious. Lutheranism, Calvinism are not biblical, they are barbaric, no different from Islam. This is probably why most of these reformed guys are so fanatical and violent, have zero compassion for the poor, are okay with wars etc. it is because they believe all is predestined.

Besides, the very concept of election makes god a puppet master. He makes arbitrary decisions - everybody is evil, but some evil ppl are saved for no reason. How silly! And to explain this, we have to demonize people and maintain that everybody deserves hell, and God is gracious enough to save anyone at all. In other words, to defend God's actions, we are necessarily forced to demonize our fellow men.

Anyway, my point is that god doesnt discriminate. Men do. God accepts all people. Whether all ppl accept him is another question.

 

[Charles Spurgeon]

2

I was about to post one of those Star Trek double face palm things, but it might be in violation of the rules... besides the Lord is gracious to guide me... (google Star Trek double face palm if you care).

As for your post.... Though I don't care much for Lutheranism, Luther was on track with predestination and so was Calvin.

You're falling off a cliff and into oblivion due to the fact scripture is explicit that predestination is gospel truth. If you think man has a free will (to choose Christ), by all means prove it from the scripture (I can wholeheartedly assure you, you cannot).

If man is not predestined, then by all means, prove it from the scripture (I also wholeheartedly assure you, you cannot prove this either).

Please carefully re-read the Gospel of John, Romans, and Ephesians for your answers. Especially Ephesians chapter 1, Romans 8-9, and John 6 & 10.

 

[Charles Spurgeon]

Any theology that involves predestination is dubious. Lutheranism, Calvinism are not biblical, they are barbaric, no different from Islam. This is probably why most of these reformed guys are so fanatical and violent, have zero compassion for the poor, are okay with wars etc. it is because they believe all is predestined.

(Please show us where most Reformed believers are fanatical, violent, and have zero compassion for the poor). Also please show us even how it's possible Lutheranism and Calvinism are remotely the same as Islam.

Besides, the very concept of election makes god a puppet master.

How so? God told Adam he would surely die in the day he partook in the fruit... Adam ate, and he died. If man is fallen in sin, then is it not by God's sheer mercy that any are saved at all?

He makes arbitrary decisions - everybody is evil, but some evil ppl are saved for no reason.

They are saved for a reason, to glorify God. The unsaved aren't saved... to glorify God.

How silly! And to explain this, we have to demonize people and maintain that everybody deserves hell, and God is gracious enough to save anyone at all.

So a person who is at war with God deserves to be brought into His presence without any accountability? Suppose a man came into your house and raped your mother, killed your father, committed all sorts of atrocities... should he not be condemned? When God tells you to not think immoral thoughts, to obey your government, etc. and you don't, why do you think God should just let you into His presence, without accountability?

In other words, to defend God's actions, we are necessarily forced to demonize our fellow men.

Do you not believe the word? Everybody is evil, wicked and ungodly... and apart from God's mercy, everyone is cast out from His presence.

Anyway, my point is that god doesnt discriminate.

You don't know your Bible very well... God "discriminates" all of the time.

Men do. God accepts all people. Whether all ppl accept him is another question.

Again, prove from the word Man has the ultimate ability to choose or reject Christ.

....

 

[Mike]

This thread sounds fraudulent. You give up on Lutheranism? Because it aligns with Calvinism??? If you knew about the Lutheran Church, you would know it most certainly does not adhere to predestination and Calvinism. Luther agreed on some aspects of the doctrine, but there were serious misgivings he had with it.

I don't know a single Lutheran who looks to Luther for inerrant Truth anyway. That's a misnomer because of the name. I don't believe anyone should be so tied to a denomination that they treat it like they're leaving Christianity.

Lutherans and Calvinists... That would make for an interesting party! ;)

 

[handy]

This thread sounds fraudulent. You give up on Lutheranism? Because it aligns with Calvinism??? If you knew about the Lutheran Church, you would know it most certainly does not adhere to predestination and Calvinism. Luther agreed on some aspects of the doctrine, but there were serious misgivings he had with it.

I don't know a single Lutheran who looks to Luther for inerrant Truth anyway. That's a misnomer because of the name. I don't believe anyone should be so tied to a denomination that they treat it like they're leaving Christianity.

Lutherans and Calvinists... That would make for an interesting party! ;)

Yeah... tell me about it!!! Having left Calvinism and (via a long and winding road) am in the Lutheran Church.... not a lot in common, theologically speaking.

And, having been in both churches, what's up with the zero compassion for the poor thing? Not my experience at all. 2

 

[Mike]

Yeah... tell me about it!!! Having left Calvinism and (via a long and winding road) am in the Lutheran Church.... not a lot in common, theologically speaking.

And, having been in both churches, what's up with the zero compassion for the poor thing? Not my experience at all. 2

I don't think OP is talking about the "Lutheran church" but lumping Luther's doctrine in with Calvin's and saying all reformist care little of the poor. Wrong to lump them together in predestination and wrong to say either care little of the poor. Wrong, wrong, wrong... Very misinformed to say the least.

We need a re-worded OP.

 

[Timf]

God accepts all people.

On the basis of what?

 

[Elijah674]

I don't think OP is talking about the "Lutheran church" but lumping Luther's doctrine in with Calvin's and saying all reformist care little of the poor. Wrong to lump them together in predestination and wrong to say either care little of the poor. Wrong, wrong, wrong... Very misinformed to say the least.

We need a re-worded OP.

___________

No, Rev. 17:1-5 has it all said correctly along with Christ's WARNING of Rev. 18:4.

And His N.T. Inspiration has it documented as such...

James 2
[6] But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
[7] Do not they [[blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?]]

[8] If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
[9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and [[yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all]].
[11] For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
[12] So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

(that comes directly from His Eternal COVENANT THAT HE HIMSELF PENNED! actually the one command of Christ broken by both groups is His 7th Day Sabbath one)

 

[elijah23]

Any theology that involves predestination is dubious. Lutheranism, Calvinism are not biblical, they are barbaric, no different from Islam. This is probably why most of these reformed guys are so fanatical and violent, have zero compassion for the poor, are okay with wars etc. it is because they believe all is predestined.

Besides, the very concept of election makes god a puppet master. He makes arbitrary decisions - everybody is evil, but some evil ppl are saved for no reason. How silly! And to explain this, we have to demonize people and maintain that everybody deserves hell, and God is gracious enough to save anyone at all. In other words, to defend God's actions, we are necessarily forced to demonize our fellow men.

Anyway, my point is that god doesnt discriminate. Men do. God accepts all people. Whether all ppl accept him is another question.

I suspect all Lutherans do not believe the same things. Someone might say, "United Methodists believe this," or, "United Methodists believe that," but I am a United Methodist, and I believe what I believe to be the truth, not what another United Methodist might believe, and when I’ve gone to adult Sunday school classes, I find that people believe different things.

 

[Elijah674]

I suspect all Lutherans do not believe the same things. Someone might say, "United Methodists believe this," or, "United Methodists believe that," but I am a United Methodist, and I believe what I believe to be the truth, not what another United Methodist might believe, and when I’ve gone to adult Sunday school classes, I find that people believe different things.

Forum: I am Elijah674 responding to Elijah23's [[post.]] Got that? And 'i' am speaking for [myself] not any other one.

OK: If I were 'yoked in memborship' with any church, be it Luthern or even Baptist & did not believe in [[ALL OF THEIR DOCTRINES]], (and I say this sincerely for myself) then I would see myself as the worst kind of hypocrite with the claim of being in their membership! And when I found that any doctrine was wrong or flawed how would Rev. 18:4 [NOT APPLY TO ME!!!] 'My people'?? and then the free choice to be a PARTAKERS of [my church] means more than the Christ of the Universe does to me!

John 12
[42] Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, [[lest they should be put out of the synagogue:]]
[43] For [[they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God]].

Personally for me, I had always believed that this was what would cause the 2 Thess. 2:1-3's GREAT FALLING AWAY just befor Christ comes again. But it appears that most could care less of what is being taught other than a workless 'only believe'. James 2:26 FATAL Cop/Out!

--Elijah674

 

[Mike]

I suspect all Lutherans do not believe the same things. Someone might say, "United Methodists believe this," or, "United Methodists believe that," but I am a United Methodist, and I believe what I believe to be the truth, not what another United Methodist might believe, and when I’ve gone to adult Sunday school classes, I find that people believe different things.

But it wasn't said that Lutherans believe in predestination, but that "Lutheranism" holds to it. Of course individual members can have their own beliefs separate from church doctrine. I have some differences, myself. But Lutheran doctrine does not hold to it. I'm not going to debate about the doctrine itself, but to suggest that any of the major Lutheran denominations hold to predestination is blatantly misinformed and wrong.

 

[Vic C.]

2

I was about to post one of those Star Trek double face palm things, but it might be in violation of the rules... besides the Lord is gracious to guide me... (google Star Trek double face palm if you care).

As for your post.... Though I don't care much for Lutheranism, Luther was on track with predestination and so was Calvin.

You're falling off a cliff and into oblivion due to the fact scripture is explicit that predestination is gospel truth. If you think man has a free will (to choose Christ), by all means prove it from the scripture (I can wholeheartedly assure you, you cannot).

If man is not predestined, then by all means, prove it from the scripture (I also wholeheartedly assure you, you cannot prove this either).

Please carefully re-read the Gospel of John, Romans, and Ephesians for your answers. Especially Ephesians chapter 1, Romans 8-9, and John 6 & 10.

A few years ago, I was "invited" to take that challenge. I was even "invited" to find some middle ground between the two opposed systems, Calvinism and Arminianism.

I found overwhelming support for the former and also found there is very little middle ground either.

I did discover two things though; I found out that we must properly understand predestination and not confuse it with double predestination.

... and I also discovered it's best not to believe what other people say about the beliefs of the Reformers, but instead, read their very own words. Both Luther and Calvin were prolific when it came to writing about their belief systems.

Two of my Mods pointed out to me this statement by Luther: (paraphrased) We should not give predestination much thought nor should we engage in debate about it.

That is confirmed here:

Accordingly, you who are listening to me now should remember that I have taught that one should not inquire into the predestination of the hidden God but should be satisfied with what is revealed through the calling and through the ministry of the Word. For then you can be sure about your faith and salvation and say: “I believe in the Son of God, who said (John 3:36): ‘He who believes in the Son has eternal life.’ †Hence no condemnation or wrath rests on him, but he enjoys the good pleasure of God the Father. But I have publicly stated these same things elsewhere in my books, and now I am also teaching them by word of mouth. Therefore I am excused.

http://www.orlutheran.com/html/mlpredestination.html

When studying the beliefs of the Reformers, I find http://www.monergism.com a good starting place. I found this article interesting:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/double_luther.html


The OP sounds a lot like me a few years ago. IMO, it is either a point of denial or a misunderstanding of both Biblical and Systematic Theology.

 

[JJsaint]

Any theology that involves predestination is dubious. Lutheranism, Calvinism are not biblical, they are barbaric, no different from Islam. This is probably why most of these reformed guys are so fanatical and violent, have zero compassion for the poor, are okay with wars etc. it is because they believe all is predestined.

Besides, the very concept of election makes god a puppet master. He makes arbitrary decisions - everybody is evil, but some evil ppl are saved for no reason. How silly! And to explain this, we have to demonize people and maintain that everybody deserves hell, and God is gracious enough to save anyone at all. In other words, to defend God's actions, we are necessarily forced to demonize our fellow men.

Anyway, my point is that god doesnt discriminate. Men do. God accepts all people. Whether all ppl accept him is another question.

Since when does God accept all people?

 

[Jman96]

God has always accepted all people.

 

[JJsaint]

God has always accepted all people.

oh really?

Malachi 1:2-3:<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-23092">2</sup>I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-23093">3</sup>And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.


Deuteronomy 23:2-3:<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-5503">2</sup>A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-5504">3</sup>An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever:


Zechariah 14:21 ''and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.''


Deuteronomy 7:1-3:<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-5113">1</sup>When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girga****es, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-5114">2</sup>And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-5115">3</sup>Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.


John 10:26:But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.


Matthew 7:6 ''Give not that which is holy unto the dogs'' - Read that with Matthew 15:22-28

 

[Christ_empowered]

I have a feeling that you've accepted today's post-modern view of God--God as "love," God as embracing, saving, and accepting all, God as a big, warm hug-- and as a result you have a problem with the God presented in Scripture and in more traditional church doctrines. The Gospel offends everyone. Its not politically correct, and its never really "fit in" with any culture, anywhere, at any time. I'm a Christian, and the Gospel still kind of offends me. I'll read the OT and think "OK, God did what, now?," and I'll look over some of the rules and think "I'm expected to do this...because?" But, I accept the rules, not because I'm a wonderful person (and definitely not because I've been brainwashed), but because I accept that the Scriptures present Absolute Truth, and have since the day they were written. At a certain point, I think a Christian has to stop putting God on trial--judging Him by today's supposedly "enlightened" standards--and start just accepting that He is much smarter, much more powerful, and much wiser than we are, and the He operates according to His own (transcendent, holy) rules.

 

[elijah23]

Forum: I am Elijah674 responding to Elijah23's [[post.]] Got that? And 'i' am speaking for [myself] not any other one.

OK: If I were 'yoked in memborship' with any church, be it Luthern or even Baptist & did not believe in [[ALL OF THEIR DOCTRINES]], (and I say this sincerely for myself) then I would see myself as the worst kind of hypocrite with the claim of being in their membership! And when I found that any doctrine was wrong or flawed how would Rev. 18:4 [NOT APPLY TO ME!!!] 'My people'?? and then the free choice to be a PARTAKERS of [my church] means more than the Christ of the Universe does to me!

John 12
[42] Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, [[lest they should be put out of the synagogue:]]
[43] For [[they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God]].

Personally for me, I had always believed that this was what would cause the 2 Thess. 2:1-3's GREAT FALLING AWAY just befor Christ comes again. But it appears that most could care less of what is being taught other than a workless 'only believe'. James 2:26 FATAL Cop/Out!

--Elijah674

I believe in being loyal to my church, even if not everyone in my church is perfect. For that matter, I am not perfect either.

 

[elijah23]

But it wasn't said that Lutherans believe in predestination, but that "Lutheranism" holds to it. Of course individual members can have their own beliefs separate from church doctrine. I have some differences, myself. But Lutheran doctrine does not hold to it. I'm not going to debate about the doctrine itself, but to suggest that any of the major Lutheran denominations hold to predestination is blatantly misinformed and wrong.

I’ve never heard that Lutherans believe in predestination.