I hate every false way...

[Eventide]

Re: An argument from silence...

I believe in both scenarios putting semantics aside.

Then you should be able to show us BIBLICAL examples from both sides.

Would you do that ?

Specifically, show a biblical example of a person being regenerated so that they believe on the Lord... and of course show a biblical example of a person believing and then being regenerated.

 

[childeye]

Re: An argument from silence...

Then you should be able to show us BIBLICAL examples from both sides.

Would you do that ?

Specifically, show a biblical example of a person being regenerated so that they believe on the Lord... and of course show a biblical example of a person believing and then being regenerated.

You' ve used the same term, "regenerated", to mean two different things. How am I supposed to show anything without an exact understanding of the term? That is not possible since if I show you Saul and Paul you can simply say this is not considered proof of either when in my view it is proof of both. If I show you where it says that the wind blows where it will, this is not proof. If I show you the children of God are not born by the will of men or the will of the flesh but by the will of God, this is not proof. If I show you that Jesus said no one can come to me unless it is given by God to come, is this proof? If I show you that Jesus said, all who come to me will be saved and I will not lose even one, Is this proof?

How am I able to show somewhere in the bible where someone had the Spirit of God residing in them and yet they rejected God? For it can be said he never actually had the Spirit of God or he chose to ignore it. And again there were those who said they believed but yet they did not do as he said. So Jesus asks, why call me Lord and not do what I say? Did they truly ever believe or was this lip service?

But I cannot deny that Truth must be more than lies if only men could see. For how does Jesus say the Truth will set you free if it does not do so with all surety?

Perhaps scripture is not always reliable in it's translation either. What are we to make of the two scenarios that at once declares God desires all men to be saved and wills that none perish, while scripture seems to imply there are those that will perish according to His will? What does perish actually mean? Does it mean to never be saved or just perish while in the flesh but yet the soul will be saved? Does He mean they perish because men have a free will or because they have an enslaved will? So Paul says, what if God wanted to show His wrath and so He prepared some vessels unto destrucition and others unto glory. Why say "what if" and leave us hanging? Is this an accurate translation?

There are things that remain unknown and we see through a dark glass. And I suspect this has it's purpose. As such I don't see men freely choosing, but rather being sifted and sorted without human pretense being allowed to alter the outcome.

 

[Eventide]

An argument from silence...

Ok, so I have defined what I believe regeneration is although it was in another thread within another discussion..

So here it is.. Regeneration is simply being born again, by the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit. I believe It is also referred to in the scriptures as circumcision of the heart.. And more importantly, a biblical example of this is provided for us in Eph 1:13, because there we are taught when it was that God did seal us with the Holy Spirit of promise... That being after we trusted in Christ, after hearing the word of truth, and after we believed.

John 1 is another example IMO... There we are told that He gives power to become the sons of God to those who receive Him..

John 7 speaks of living waters flowing up in those who would believe on Him and receive the Spirit.

So there's my definition... Being born again... Having Christ birthed into this earthen vessel of mine.

Now you're saying that you see both sides.. and another person has told me that they do not see Eph 1:13 as regeneration... How about you ?

They told me that regeneration is something else which takes place before belief.. And yet thus far it's an argument from silence.. Perhaps you can break that silence and show us your definition of regeneration and how that happens before a person believes.

 

[Eventide]

Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness...

The ultimate example IMO is Abraham, the father of faith..

There we're told that Abraham believed God and was counted righteous because of that belief.. Then we're told that he received the sign of circumcision which is a SEAL of the righteousness of the faith.. The faith which he had before he was circumcised.

Do you see this aligned with what Paul writes in Eph 1:13 ? How that God SEALED us with the Holy Spirit of promise after we believed..?

Yes, no ?

 

[childeye]

Re: An argument from silence...

Ok, so I have defined what I believe regeneration is although it was in another thread within another discussion..

So here it is.. Regeneration is simply being born again, by the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit. I believe It is also referred to in the scriptures as circumcision of the heart.. And more importantly, a biblical example of this is provided for us in Eph 1:13, because there we are taught when it was that God did seal us with the Holy Spirit of promise... That being after we trusted in Christ, after hearing the word of truth, and after we believed.

John 1 is another example IMO... There we are told that He gives power to become the sons of God to those who receive Him..

John 7 speaks of living waters flowing up in those who would believe on Him and receive the Spirit.

So there's my definition... Being born again... Having Christ birthed into this earthen vessel of mine.

Now you're saying that you see both sides.. and another person has told me that they do not see Eph 1:13 as regeneration... How about you ?

They told me that regeneration is something else which takes place before belief.. And yet thus far it's an argument from silence.. Perhaps you can break that silence and show us your definition of regeneration and how that happens before a person believes.

I do not wish to take sides particularly over the dfferences of terminology. But I would agree that regeneration sounds better refering to the renewing of the mind and purging of the soul. The caveat is that since God is able to do all things through the course of time, it would not be incorrect to say He has declared the end from the beginning and hence the regeneration was always inevitable from the outset according to His grace and purpose. To Him it may all be happening at once. This would then mean, that regeneration began in His plan from the beginning but what you and I are calling regeneration is just the manifestation of that.

 

[Eventide]

Re: An argument from silence...

I do not wish to take sides particularly over the dfferences of terminology. But I would agree that regeneration sounds better refering to the renewing of the mind and purging of the soul. The caveat is that since God is able to do all things through the course of time, it would not be incorrect to say He has declared the end from the beginning and hence the regeneration was always inevitable from the outset according to His grace and purpose. To Him it may all be happening at once. This would then mean, that regeneration began in His plan from the beginning but what you and I are calling regeneration is just the manifestation of that.

No one is asking you to take sides.. But to simply show biblical examples of what you do believe, so that it's not based upon silence... But rather upon biblical principles.

We can say anything we want and go on and on about the topic, although unless we're basing our belief upon biblical truths, it's all simply a lot of words with no authoritive voice.

 

[childeye]

Re: An argument from silence...

No one is asking you to take sides.. But to simply show biblical examples of what you do believe, so that it's not based upon silence... But rather upon biblical principles.

We can say anything we want and go on and on about the topic, although unless we're basing our belief upon biblical truths, it's all simply a lot of words with no authoritive voice.

I see both sides and I've given you scriptures indicating both. See Saul and Paul and his testimony. To be clear, regeneration is more properly termed as manifested through the Spirit of God after believing in the Christ, but no one can believe without the Holy Spirit drawing them to Christ in the heart. Scripture says no one can confess the Christ without the Holy Spirit. All good and life giving manifestations are orchestrated by God who is the author and finisher of our faith.

 

[Eventide]

Re: An argument from silence...

To be clear, regeneration is more properly termed as manifested through the Spirit of God after believing in the Christ, but no one can believe without the Holy Spirit drawing them to Christ in the heart.

Not sure what you're talking about here.. ??

IMO being regenerated is simply being born again. Having the Spirit of Christ birthed within our earthen vessel.

 

[childeye]

Re: An argument from silence...

Not sure what you're talking about here.. ??

IMO being regenerated is simply being born again. Having the Spirit of Christ birthed within our earthen vessel.

I agree with you. I am only adding that scripture shows the Holy Spirit moves a man to believe in Christ.

 

[Eventide]

Re: An argument from silence...

I agree with you. I am only adding that scripture shows the Holy Spirit moves a man to believe in Christ.

Don't agree with me, agree with the holy scripture.

Of course the Holy Spirit convinces us of these enormous issues in life, specifically sin, righteousness, and judgment. That's what He was sent into the world to do... Ever since Pentecost.

Isn't that what the scriptures say ?

 

[Mitspa]

Re: An argument from silence...

As usual I see two lines of reasoning wherein the terms change accordingly. I'm sorry, I can't help it. There are semantics. For what if Adam first believed in God to begin with, without having to witness the Christ? And by that I mean Adam trusted God and knew not otherwise. For what if Adam himself was the very image of God and knew God, yet he was persuaded to doubt God by doubting himself? Then it could be said that Adam didn't actually need to be regenerated before being persuaded to doubt, since he was perfect the way he was made. Yet he doubted this, which means he had to be regenerated. And this is what I think is meant by a defiled conscience.

And yet in the bigger picture, is it not inevitable that God would someday become suspect according to the pride that began in Satan? Are we not become Satan's children when we presume to doubt the Character of God?

So how does a man believe in the Christ without believing the Word of God embedded in the heart? Why do some men see the righteousness of God and others see a fool? For some did not believe and even now do not see. I fail to see how any man could not believe once he has seen. There is therefore a blindness and this is why the Gospel makes the blind seeing and the seeing blind. There, I hope I said that right.

I believe the term "washing" is used in terms of "regeneration" I believe the Holy Spirit has taught me that it means to wash away the old image that came at the fall and restore ones conscience to the pre-fall condition, By the water of the New Testament which is the Image of Christ! I would agree with Childeyes understanding to a large degree on this issue.

 

[Eventide]

Re: An argument from silence...

I believe the term "washing" is used in terms of "regeneration" I believe the Holy Spirit has taught me that it means to wash away the old image that came at the fall and restore ones conscience to the pre-fall condition, By the water of the New Testament which is the Image of Christ!

IMO it is infinitely more than restoring Adam to his pre fall condition... It is nothing less than having Christ IN US, within this frail earthen vessel.

This is important IMO because when man is regenerated he then has two distinct natures living within the same lump of clay... His Adamic nature by the natural birth or his parents, and the divine nature of Christ, born in us miraculously by the Holy Spirit, after we trusted in Christ, and after we believed on Him unto righteousness.

 

[Eventide]

An argument from silence...

This is why regeneration is exclusively a NT reality IMO...

There was no such thing as denying yourself, and taking up your cross.. There was no such thing as being born again in the OT.

It was the letter of the Law given to Israelites..

The Spirit of Christ spoke through the PROPHETS.. And they wrote it all down for us. The oracles of God were committed to the Israelites.. And this is why the church of God is built upon the foundation of the Apostles and the PROPHETS.

We also know that men heard the voice of God audibly in the OT... Abraham did.. And he believed God.. But he wasn't born again as we are today.. IMO there's no biblical support for that.

Regeneration is nothing less than the infinitely glorious life of Christ being birthed in us, in this earthen vessel... And He alone is our hope of glory.

 

[farouk]

We can remember, too, that in the Psalms David prays 'and take not thy holy spirit from me' (Psalm 51.11). Since New Testament believers since Pentecost have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit, this is not something that a believer today need pray, (although it is good and right to want to be filled with the Spirit).

 

[smaller]

So you don't vote.. that's understandable.. this isn't for you then.. it's intended for those who do vote and might vote conservatively but not necessarily for the party which we will all ultimately be subject to etc.

I've voted in every election since 1972. And on the conservative side since Carter. This may be the first year I go back to the dem side til the conservative party actually becomes one again.

Ron Paul of course is my political fav and Jesse Ventura is a pretty smart dude in my book as well.

That all being said I consider it a somewhat pointless exercise of participatory duty, but voting keeps me from being a complete and total cynic...

s

 

[Eventide]

We can remember, too, that in the Psalms David prays 'and take not thy holy spirit from me' (Psalm 51.11). Since New Testament believers since Pentecost have been indwelt by the Holy Spirit, this is not something that a believer today need pray, (although it is good and right to want to be filled with the Spirit).

Yes, the Spirit came upon men in the OT although they were not sealed with it as we are today.

Paul tells us to not grieve the Spirit or quench it..

 

[childeye]

Re: An argument from silence...

Don't agree with me, agree with the holy scripture.

Of course the Holy Spirit convinces us of these enormous issues in life, specifically sin, righteousness, and judgment. That's what He was sent into the world to do... Ever since Pentecost.

Isn't that what the scriptures say ?

Of course I agree with scripture when I understand scripture, but I cannot agree with what I don't understand. There is misinterpretation and disagreement over interpretation. Hence the Truth is Spirit and greater than the letter.

Your interpretation of Adam not being deceived, for example, is to me taken out of context. My view is that Adam doubted himself, and your view is he freely, wantonly and knowingly defied God according to a perfectly sound reasoning of the mind.

 

[Eventide]

Re: An argument from silence...

Your interpretation of Adam not being deceived, for example, is to me taken out of context. My view is that Adam doubted himself, and your view is he freely, wantonly and knowingly defied God according to a perfectly sound reasoning of the mind.

Well, if I'm not mistaken... you also claimed that you do not sin.. so knowing that about you would help me understand your not accepting the simple truth presented, AND that being that the woman was deceived, but the man was NOT deceived.

 

[childeye]

Re: An argument from silence...

Well, if I'm not mistaken... you also claimed that you do not sin.. so knowing that about you would help me understand your not accepting the simple truth presented, AND that being that the woman was deceived, but the man was NOT deceived.

To be clear, I have sin because of Adam. I claimed I don't think that I sin as in my personal perspective or prerogative. That does not mean I havn't sinned in the past nor that I will not sin in the future. I simply don't set out to sin, but I have lusts of the flesh just like everyone else that I believe are dying as I walk in the Spirit. Pride goeth before a fall and so we don't see it coming. I am not better than you. That being said, I think we perhaps have different definitions of sin. For scripture says, what is sin to one man is not sin to another.

Regarding Adam, yes how I view Adam is central to coming full circle unto Christ, the second Adam. I believe Adam was deceived not as Eve was, but in the fact that Adam was persuaded by the woman who was deceived. The issue here is faith first and foremost, and choice is secondary.

 

[Eventide]

Re: An argument from silence...

Regarding Adam, yes how I view Adam is central to coming full circle unto Christ, the second Adam. I believe Adam was deceived not as Eve was, but in the fact that Adam was persuaded by the woman who was deceived. The issue here is faith first and foremost, and choice is secondary.

Firstly, and not to be picky.. but Christ is the second man, the LAST Adam.

Secondly, your issue is with the word of God, not this thread. The word of God says that the man was not deceived.. so if you'd like to correct God on the matter then go right ahead..

How about dreams... any dreams of saving people lately ?