I have a serious question, believers

[wavy]

Now, many of you may know me and know that I believe in a Torah lifestyle (as you learn and grow and repent). Many of you may not. But regardless, whatever you believe about me or believe yourself, I need some logic presented to me.

I believe that the lifestyle of a believer should be such that they should be an active seeker of truth. And if that means tossing out what one currently believes, then so be it. I have not always lived up to this. I still struggle (no one said a believer's walk would be easy).

I also do not like to come across as a know it all and a "Judaizer", considering all Christians as lawless, pagan, heathen (although I do sometimes, though I don't mean to). Still, I see problems that don't compute in my head about certain beliefs (one of them being we don't have to be obedient to Torah).

So, in light of this, I'd like to ask a question:

When Yahweh spoke to Israel in the wilderness, was this what he said to them true?

Exodus 20:2 I am יהוה thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Now, I was going to be subtle and wait for your answer, which I don't doubt would be "yes". But I want to go ahead and answer that for you and go on to the next point. I want to be honest with no hidden motives. Straight forward is where we'll go.

If the above is true, then observing Torah cannot be bondage. If Yahweh delivered them out of the house of bondage (Exodus 12:27; Exodus 18:8; 1 Samuel 10:18), did he bring them back into bondage when he gave them the Torah?

When I analyze Paul's writings, many people accuse me of twisting his words, since the outcome is never "Don't keep the Torah, it is not to be kept or heeded by Christians. It's just good to read and get historical backround and a foundation for all the rest of the scriptures to know what they are talking about". Many people accuse me of being "legalistic" and a "Judaizer" and of promoting "another religion" and preaching "another gospel" and of teaching "false doctrine".

So my question is, if one read's Galatians and get's from it that the "law" is bondage and that Christ has freed us from that "yoke", how do you explain the above?

At what point does it become bondage? Upon acceptance of Messiah? At what point does it become "weak and beggarly" (Galatians 4:9)?

How do Paul's words take precedence over some one's like David, a man after Yahweh's own heart and who knew of the Messiah (Psalm 110:1) and yet said:

Psalm 119:44 So shall I keep thy Torah continually for ever and ever.
Psalm 119:45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.

Not to bring glory to myself, or anything of that nature. But I do not consider myself "legalistic" and a twister of the New Testament writings because I want to stay faithful to the scriptures.

I'm not crazy, am I?

 

[Windozer]

I'm not crazy, am I?

I don't think you are crazy. You have obviously dug very deep, and that is a tremendous amount of work.

However it is my opinion that you may be more a student of the book as opposed to a follower of Jesus.

It is my belief that the purpose of the scriptures is to lead one to the Christ, and from then on it is a personal relationship with Jesus which is important. Which involves allowing him to be your leader, teacher, and Lord.

Note: I will not argue with you about this. I offer it as an opinion only.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Well the Torah certainly has it's place in a Christian's life, but Christ didn't come to abolish it, but to complete it. Windozer also has a nice point.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

I think that you have it right on when you say that we are called to be obedient. Some in the Church today would have you believe that obediance is a work and that only faith saves. When Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, He also said He did not abolish it and that not one jot nor tittle would pass away. Jesus came as a fulfiller to make it possible for the law to be met. We are expected to do our parts and to live honorable lives, trying always to follow the commands of God, but in the end, we know it is only grace that saves and fulfills the law as we were unable to. It is trying to live a life that is pleasing to God and failing and trying again, and again that makes grace so wonderful and helps us to know how in need we were of Jesus.

Are works important? Yep.

And btw, I think it great you are willing to let God lead you into whatever He has for you. I feel the same way and have progressed in my understanding of Him because of it.

 

[Windozer]

Romans 13:8 NIV.
[ Love, for the Day is Near ] Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.

 

[Solo]

No one does good works or obeys God until after being born again (saved).

 

[wavy]

I think the problem then becomes what we are to be obedient to, then.

 

[Solo]

Prior to being born again, one comes up with all kinds of obedience trips to conform to their own interpretation of what is holy. Until one is actually born again, can one obey the God that indwells them. They that are born again can walk in the Spirit and be obedient, or walk in the flesh and be disobedient. Their salvation is sealed by the Holy Spirit through the work of Jesus Christ. Their own works mean nothing until they are born again, and obey God as they walk in the Spirit. If they walk in the flesh and obey each and every commandment, it will be no better than if they had broken every commandment, because God can not be worshipped in the flesh, only in the Spirit.

 

[wavy]

Well, then we keep the commandments in Spirit and truth.

Torah is both (Romans 7:14, Psalm 119:142)

 

[Solo]

Well, then we keep the commandments in Spirit and truth.

Torah is both (Romans 7:14, Psalm 119:142)

Jesus kept the Torah and saves those who are unable to. Perhaps you have kept the entire torah, and if you have there is only one other that has, Jesus Christ.

Those of us who can not keep the Law are thankful that Jesus Christ did, and he is our propitiation for the penalty of sin. It is his works that we are able to enter the Kingdom of God, not our works.

If you want to claim that your works are equal to his, then so be it.

 

[wavy]

Nope, solo, it is not about claiming equality. It's about modeling ones self after this:

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

If that's what he did, we ought to follow his example to the utmost. He loved and taught us, when we were lacking, to love one another. So his obedience to Torah was made full.

So should ours through love. Matthew 22:37-40.

 

[Solo]

Nope, solo, it is not about claiming equality. It's about modeling ones self after this:

1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

If that's what he did, we ought to follow his example to the utmost. He loved and taught us, when we were lacking, to love one another. So his obedience to Torah was made full.

So should ours through love. Matthew 22:37-40.

So when you do not walk with him or as he did (does) what part of the Torah do you perform to atone for your lapse of walking in the Spirit. What do you do to appease for your lack of good works when you participate in the flesh instead of the Spirit?

 

[wavy]

So when you do not walk with him or as he did (does) what part of the Torah do you perform to atone for your lapse of walking in the Spirit. What do you do to appease for your lack of good works when you participate in the flesh instead of the Spirit?

This is the exact problem I try to get people to see...

This is a precondition you have placed upon me. A manmade one at that. This is true "bondage".

There is no part of the Torah to perform to make up for my atonement. I believe that if I sin, I have an advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1). The same as when you sin.

The problem is creating the false dilemma that if one believes we should heed instruction (Torah, which is what it truly means), then they are contrary to Messiah. That is the precondition you have placed upon me because I understand differently than you do.

 

[Solo]

So when you do not walk with him or as he did (does) what part of the Torah do you perform to atone for your lapse of walking in the Spirit. What do you do to appease for your lack of good works when you participate in the flesh instead of the Spirit?

This is the exact problem I try to get people to see...

This is a precondition you have placed upon me. A manmade one at that. This is true "bondage".

There is no part of the Torah to perform to make up for my atonement. I believe that if I sin, I have an advocate with the Father (1 John 2:1). The same as when you sin.

The problem is creating the false dilemma that if one believes we should heed instruction (Torah, which is what it truly means), then they are contrary to Messiah. That is the precondition you have placed upon me because I understand differently than you do.

wavy,
I have not placed any precondition on you. I am asking you questions. If I may continue without you getting emotional, I will.

When you fail to keep the Torah, what atones for this sin, according to your previous post, is the advocate with the Father. What is it that allows the advocate to forgive your sin of not keeping the Torah?

Can you obey God as you walk in the flesh, or must you be walking in the Spirit to obey God?

 

[wavy]

wavy,
I have not placed any precondition on you. I am asking you questions. If I may continue without you getting emotional, I will.

Sorry about that then.

What is it that allows the advocate to forgive your sin of not keeping the Torah?

The bible says it. I believe it.

Can you obey God as you walk in the flesh, or must you be walking in the Spirit to obey God

Not a chance that one can walk in the flesh and still be obeying Yahweh.

 

[Solo]

wavy,
I have not placed any precondition on you. I am asking you questions. If I may continue without you getting emotional, I will.

Sorry about that then.

What is it that allows the advocate to forgive your sin of not keeping the Torah?

The bible says it. I believe it.

[quote:f6e71]Can you obey God as you walk in the flesh, or must you be walking in the Spirit to obey God

Not a chance that one can walk in the flesh and still be obeying Yahweh.[/quote:f6e71]

Do you believe that a person that is born again, is born of God?

Do you also believe that unless a person is born of God, born again, he/she cannot perform good works?

Can a person who is not born of God act like they keep the Torah, when in fact they can not, because of their lacking of having God's attendence in order to do so?

Is the Jesus Christ the full embodiment of the Torah? Is Jesus Christ more righteous than the Torah? Is the Torah dead without Jesus Christ?

 

[wavy]

Do you believe that a person that is born again, is born of God?

Yes.

Do you also believe that unless a person is born of God, born again, he/she cannot perform good works?

They can perform good works (seemingly, from the outside). But they'll be dead works (Hebrews 6:1).

Can a person who is not born of God act like they keep the Torah, when in fact they can not, because of their lacking of having God's attendence in order to do so?

Oh yes, they can keep the Torah on the outside. But on the inside it's a different story. And that's what Yahshua came to restore. I don't think he taught "don't be outwardly at all", but not to be outwardly for the sake of being outwardly while being corrupt inwardly. Our light is supposed to shine (Proverbs 6:23; Matthew 5:16).

Is the Jesus Christ the full embodiment of the Torah? Is Jesus Christ more righteous than the Torah? Is the Torah dead without Jesus Christ?

Yes, I believe the Messiah is the full embodiment of all the Word. More righteous than the Torah? I wouldn't put it in those terms. No. Torah is Yahweh's Word and Yahshua is his Word (and his Word has no faults). So they are equal in a sense. But at the same time, I guess you could say Yahshua is greater, because he is the Giver and the Builder (Hebrews 3:3).

And yes, Torah obedience is dead without the Righteousness of Yahweh (who is Yahshua; 1 Corinthians 1:30).

 

[Solo]

Do you believe that a person that is born again, is born of God?

Yes.

Do you also believe that unless a person is born of God, born again, he/she cannot perform good works?

They can perform good works (seemingly, from the outside). But they'll be dead works (Hebrews 6:1).

[quote:daf5d]Can a person who is not born of God act like they keep the Torah, when in fact they can not, because of their lacking of having God's attendence in order to do so?

Oh yes, they can keep the Torah on the outside. But on the inside it's a different story. And that's what Yahshua came to restore. I don't think he taught "don't be outwardly at all", but not to be outwardly for the sake of being outwardly whil being corrupt on the inside. Our light is supposed to shine (Proverbs 6:23; Matthew 5:16).

Is the Jesus Christ the full embodiment of the Torah? Is Jesus Christ more righteous than the Torah? Is the Torah dead without Jesus Christ?

Yes, I believe the Messiah is the full embodiment of all the Word. More righteous than the Torah? I wouldn't put it in those terms. No. Torah is Yahweh's Word and Yahshua is his Word (and his Word has no faults). So they are equal in a sense. But at the same time, I guess you could say Yahshua is greater, because he is the Giver and the Builder (Hebrews 3:3).

And yes, Torah obedience is dead without the Righteousness of Yahweh (who is Yahshua; 1 Corinthians 1:30).[/quote:daf5d]

Jesus being the Word of God is very important to understand from my perspective on the worship and obedience to God almighty. Jesus' righteousness is imputed to those that have been born of God. Those that are born of God have two choices, to walk in the flesh and fulfill the lusts of the flesh, or to walk in the Spirit, obeying the Word of God. If you and I agree on these things, then that is a very important step.

Good night.

 

[wavy]

Good night. Going to a football game tomorrow (Atlanta Falcons). Gotta be there by 10 a.m. It's 3:00 a.m. here.


Peace/love

 

[D46]

wavy-just curious but, do you read only the Torah (Pentateuch) or do you read the entire Hebrew bible (the Tanakh)? I have the Tanakh I bought some years back and it covers (as you know) the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings (Kethubim) all of which are not in the same order as the English bible,with the Tanakh ending in II Chronicles.

Of course, we are not under the old Mosaic Law, but under Grace. No one can or could keep all the 600+ laws Moses set forth.


Psalm 119:44 So shall I keep thy Torah continually for ever and ever.

In the Tanakh this reads...I will always obey your teaching, forever and ever.

Galatians 3:10-12 (KJV) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Romans 6:14-15 (KJV) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.