I have a serious question, believers

[DivineNames]

Of course, we are not under the old Mosaic Law, but under Grace. No one can or could keep all the 600+ laws Moses set forth.

This is certainly true, but presumably Yahweh would never expect someone to keep all of the law, as all of the law would never apply to a particular person. I imagine that Yahweh would expect people to keep all those laws which applied to them.

Were they expected to keep all those laws without any fault? That may be what should be aimed at, but Yahweh provided opportunities for atonement, so he obviously didn't expect people to be 100% perfect about it.


"Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it." (Deuteronomy 30:11-14 NIV)


"The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple. The precepts of the LORD are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the LORD are radiant, giving light to the eyes." (Psalm 19:7-8 NIV)

 

[Vic C.]

I confess.. I am guilty of just skimming over the posts to get to this point. : I do want to comment on the following quote and am sorry if this was covered already.

When Yahweh spoke to Israel in the wilderness, was this what he said to them true?

Exodus 20:2 I am יהוה thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Now, I was going to be subtle and wait for your answer, which I don't doubt would be "yes". But I want to go ahead and answer that for you and go on to the next point. I want to be honest with no hidden motives. Straight forward is where we'll go.

If the above is true, then observing Torah cannot be bondage. If Yahweh delivered them out of the house of bondage (Exodus 12:27; Exodus 18:8; 1 Samuel 10:18), did he bring them back into bondage when he gave them the Torah?

Yes, what He said to them was true. :wink:

The key word in your post is bondage. You know from reading my posts that I am not big on dispensationalism. I don't believe there are two "entities" but I do believe there are two groups within that "entity". I do believe God deals with them in different ways.

Wavy, how many commandments are in the Torah? Isn't there like over 600 "rules" they must follow? Are you suggesting that we follow the Torah to the extreme that we should be stoning to death those who break many of the rules, as was suggested in the OT? While I agree the Moral laws, the ones we call the 10 commandments, still stand, I question if and why we must keep the ceremonial, dietarial and conduct laws. When Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, I believe these are the laws He is referring to.

Must I atone for my sins once a year, or did that all change? Should I be celebrating Pentecost as though it was still Shavuot? Do I even have to celebrade Pentecost at all? Should I be rebaptized the way John did it and the way it was practiscd before Jesus, or is my baptism of water Spirit sufficient?

Did not Jesus free us of such religious, legalistic bondage? Didn't He lead His followers out of the wilderness as well. Did he set the captives free?

Sorry for all the question, but I like when Paul does that. The difference is Paul usually answers his own questions. I will leave them to you to amswer.

That is your homework assignment. :

 

[Lyric's Dad]

No one does good works or obeys God until after being born again (saved).

That certainly is not true. And the Bible has a different version of what Born Again means then to respond to some altar call.

I know many people who do not adhere to the "I'm saved" idea that do great things in the Name of God and try to live their lives in a manner pleasing to Him. Taking upon you the name of Christ and entering into the waters of Baptism are the Biblical mandate.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Well, then we keep the commandments in Spirit and truth.

Torah is both (Romans 7:14, Psalm 119:142)

Jesus kept the Torah and saves those who are unable to. Perhaps you have kept the entire torah, and if you have there is only one other that has, Jesus Christ.

Those of us who can not keep the Law are thankful that Jesus Christ did, and he is our propitiation for the penalty of sin. It is his works that we are able to enter the Kingdom of God, not our works.

If you want to claim that your works are equal to his, then so be it.

That certainly does not take away our responsibility to try our very best each and every day. When all is said and done, regardless of how much good we did, it is only grace that redeems us but we still are clearly told that we are to live up to our potential. We are told to take up our cross and follow, not lie back and believe.

 

[Solo]

No one does good works or obeys God until after being born again (saved).

That certainly is not true. And the Bible has a different version of what Born Again means then to respond to some altar call.

I know many people who do not adhere to the "I'm saved" idea that do great things in the Name of God and try to live their lives in a manner pleasing to Him. Taking upon you the name of Christ and entering into the waters of Baptism are the Biblical mandate.

Perhaps you could explain what being born again is to you. I have said nothing about an alter call.

Can a person be a believer without being born again?

Can a person do good works in the flesh?

 

[wavy]

wavy-just curious but, do you read only the Torah (Pentateuch) or do you read the entire Hebrew bible (the Tanakh)? I have the Tanakh I bought some years back and it covers (as you know) the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings (Kethubim) all of which are not in the same order as the English bible,with the Tanakh ending in II Chronicles.

Of course. I read all the bible. From Genesis to Revelation. But yeah, in the Hebrew Bible, it is in a slightly different order (Psalms, etc, comes after the prophets instead of before, for instance). Same content though. I've gotten used to the Hebrew order. :-D

Of course, we are not under the old Mosaic Law, but under Grace. No one can or could keep all the 600+ laws Moses set forth.

The Torah of Yahweh given to Moshe is not “oldâ€Â. And indeed we are not “under lawâ€Â. And I believe it was DivineNames that made it clear that the 613 commandments cannot be kept by one person because not all of them apply to any single person.

Also, what we “cannot†do is not an issue. I believe some one quoted Deuteronomy 30 when Yahweh said through Moses “the word which I command you this day it is not far from you...but it is in your mouth and in your heart that you may do itâ€Â, as the scripture goes. The “I can’t†excuse never works (not saying you are using it if indeed you are not). I have encountered that argument so many times, I have my own name for it: the “You Fail†doctrine.

Psalm 119:44 So shall I keep thy Torah continually for ever and ever.

In the Tanakh this reads...I will always obey your teaching, forever and ever.

That's what Torah means. “Instruction†or “teaching†and even “revelationâ€Â. Torah does not mean “law†in the legalistic way we think of it in. That’s why, when interpreting the New Testament, we have to take into account that the word for “law†(Greek word nomos) does not always refer to what is called the “Torah of Mosheâ€Â.

Galatians 3:10-12 (KJV) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Romans 6:14-15 (KJV) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

I agree with both of these scriptures. How to interpret them is the problem. I assume you are using the Galatians scripture to say that those trying to obey Torah are “cursed†so they just need to quit and have faith and accept grace and realize the Torah is either “done away withâ€Â, or has been “fulfilled†(depends on who you are talking to), and even both.

“Works of lawâ€Â, I believe, are an interpretation of Torah such as that which was taught at the Qumran Community. In the Dead Sea Scrolls (if I am not mistaken) is a phrase called ma’aseh ha Torah, literally translated “works/acts of the lawâ€Â. These communities established certain teachers that dictated, according to their interpretation, what were the prerequisites for salvation and right standing. I believe the Jerusalem group mentioned in Galatians mimicked this behavior. Enslaving the new believers (they were keeping close observance of Torah, and yet Paul said Messiah had not even fully formed in them yet! - Galatians 4:19) to themselves through their own dogma. Paul called this “works of law†-- any law, including Torah. They taught things such as “you must be circumcised†before one could be considered saved. So in that Galatians 3:10-12 scripture, Paul quoted scripture (Deuteronomy 27:26) to tell the Galatians that those out of “works of law†are under a curse because they had not continued in true Torah. They changed Torah, and as such, violated Yahweh’s Word by preaching false doctrine. Then he says “and the Torah is not of faith, however, the man who does the things in them shall live in themâ€Â, meaning, although the Torah is not of faith (“made by faithâ€Â, although faith is a matter of it - Matthew 23:23), a man who claims Torah obedience should live his life according to the Torah. “Works of law†groupies weren’t doing such. They were not loving these new believers (which is enough to break all Torah according to James 2:10) and had placed prerequisites on the new believers. And they had not obeyed Torah principles of equality (such as Leviticus 19:33-34). They truly weren’t practicing what they preached (Galatians 6:13). That is why they are cursed. Paul is not saying, as is commonly thought, that those who obey Yahweh’s Torah are cursed because they somehow “can’tâ€Â.

As far as Romans 6:14-15? The literal reading is “under lawâ€Â. Some believe this refers to the “law of sin†as is mentioned in the next chapter in Romans 7:23 and Romans 7:25. The “law of sin†is defined by Paul as the flesh + the Torah (because the flesh is not subject to it - Romans 8:7). I can agree with this, but I think it may also mean that we are not “under law†for salvation or at the expense of Messiah. There’s no law to seek out and obey before Yahweh can mercifully, according to his chesed/grace/goodness, declare us righteous and not impute our sin (Psalm 32:1-2).

Paul actually says that through faith, we establish law (Romans 3:31). So “under law†in this case does not mean “we do not have to obey the first five books/scrolls of Yahwehââ‚s Word because he has grace on usâ€Â. All scripture is good for instruction (2 Timothy 3:16). Paul actually says that we shouldn’t sin because of grace in this same chapter (which is also defined as anomia, meaning “breaking/transgressing the law†- 1 John 3:4).

This is only my opinion and I don’t doubt that many would disagree with me, but I do not believe “under law†specifically indicates “observing the Torah†(the right way).

 

[wavy]

I finished my homework, Vic.

Yes, what He said to them was true...I do believe God deals with them in different ways.

What happened to “there is neither Jew nor Gentile�?? :o :o :o

Wavy, how many commandments are in the Torah? Isn't there like over 600 "rules" they must follow?

According to traditional Rabbis, 613.

Are you suggesting that we follow the Torah to the extreme that we should be stoning to death those who break many of the rules, as was suggested in the OT?

Not that I blame you at all. But this is a popular argument. And I must say, a little while ago I did not know how to answer it.

But then I discovered (with the help of others) Exodus 21:22, Numbers 25:5, Deuteronomy 1:16, Deuteronomy 16:18, and Deuteronomy 19:17-18 (I’m sure there is more). If we take these scriptures into account, we plainly see that this could only be carried out with a system of divinely appointed shophetim/judges, or, according to scriptures like Numbers 15:35, at the direct command of Yahweh. Many people think this was just a chaotic, mindless “kill em’ all†judgment to where if you see some one breaking the sabbath for instance (the penalty of which was death) you were to automatically find the nearest rock/stone/brick and start chucking, lol. This is not the case at all.

I also believe that this was only to be done in the land of Israel, since the land is Yahweh’s (Leviticus 25:23) and you were to be cast out of whatever city (unless otherwise indicated) and stoned. Consider also Leviticus 20:2. The people “of the land†are to stone people with stones.

But even though I believe it cannot possibly be done this way, Paul still recognized the instruction and principle of the whole ordeal. Consider the 5th chapter of 1st Corinthians. There was a fornicator in the midst of the congregation. He told them to put him away out of their midst (1 Corinthians 5:13). This is not his doctrine, however. This is a Torah principle (Deuteronomy 17:12, for instance). Even laying hands on some one (to judge them) is found in Paul’s torah (1 Timothy 5:22, and see Leviticus 24:14 for an example). Even the torah of two or three witnesses is applied in this same scripture (1 Timothy 5:19, found in Deuteronomy 17:6 and Deuteronomy 19:15). And at that, the Torah of not muzzling an ox that treads out the corn is spoken of for Timothy’s instruction (1 Timothy 5:18 as well as in 1 Corinthians 9:9-10, both found in Deuteronomy 25:4). Paul clearly taught Torah.

While I agree the Moral laws, the ones we call the 10 commandments, still stand, I question if and why we must keep the ceremonial, dietarial and conduct laws.

Well, this would only be a problem if we divided it in this way. No division into “moral, ceremonial†etc indications are made by Moses, Yahshua, or Yahweh the Father. Yahshua said all the Torah AND the prophets hang upon Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:18. It’s a collective of one principle. It’s not divided by such terminology (which is manmade; not saying you have done this yourself, however).

All Torah is “moralâ€Â. Why? Because each and every commandment hangs upon one, true moral principle: love. This is the reason we keep his commandments (Exodus 20:6; John 14:15).

When Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, I believe these are the laws He is referring to.

Well, we have to determine what “fulfill the law†means. Because if it means “do certain ceremonial and dietary laws so you don’t have toâ€Â, then we have to apply this to the prophets as well, because he also mentioned the prophets, not just the Torah. And he has not done everything as witnessed by the prophets, as we can obviously see.

I also believe “fulfill†is an insignificant (not necessarily improper) translation. Why? People take it to mean that when something is “fulfilledâ€Â, it no longer has to be done. If you tell me to cut the grass and I do so, I have “fulfilled†your request, therefore the grass does not have to be cut. This is the logic applied to “fulfilling the lawâ€Â. But I think this is improper. Another accurate translation would be to “fill it up†or “make it full†or even “satisfy†it. In what way? By obeying the prophecies, by teaching true doctrine from it (unlike many Jewish leaders of that day) and by making it meaningful (reintroducing the Spirit of it with the main principles of love, judgment, mercy, and faith – Matthew 22:37-40; Matthew 23:23).

You can see more of how I view it (supported with scripture) in “Wavy’s Viewsâ€Â.

Must I atone for my sins once a year, or did that all change?

I believe the book of Hebrews make this clear.

Should I be celebrating Pentecost as though it was still Shavuot? Do I even have to celebrade Pentecost at all?

Pentecost is the same thing as Shavuot (or am I going crazy?) One means “fifty†(Greek, for the 50 day count from the first of Unleavened Bread), one means “weeks†(Hebrew, counting the seven intermission periods/sabbaths, but the same thing). But I do not believe we should forsake the “assembling of ourselves together†(Hebrews 10:25). I believe he is clearly referring to the moadim/appointed times. This is what they are for. To gather together. Holy convocations. He is not speaking of random meetings (although nothing is wrong with that), and he is definitely not speaking of Sun Day church (not saying you thought this, however).

Should I be rebaptized the way John did it and the way it was practiscd before Jesus, or is my baptism of water Spirit sufficient?

I don’t think anything in the scripture indicates that you should be baptized the way John did it. Baptism is a Hebraic practice though (not that that's relevant).

Did not Jesus free us of such religious, legalistic bondage? Didn't He lead His followers out of the wilderness as well. Did he set the captives free?

Out of religious bondage, yes. Not out of Torah, which is Yahweh’s Word. And Torah cannot be defined as “wilderness†(if that is what you were implying -- sorry if you were not). Torah is spiritual (Romans 7:14). The wilderness is the world. As for who the “captives†are, these are exiled Israelites in all nations. If we go back and read from say, Isaiah 60 through Isaiah 61, we see who the captives are (specifically in Isaiah 61:1-2 – quoted by Yahshua in Luke 4:18-19). It’s not just a poetic, random term coined by the Messiah to sound “prettyâ€Â. We cannot dismiss what Messiah said apart from its Hebraic roots (and biblical roots). We tend to do that with the New Testament (not accusing you, however).

This has little to do with anything I just said, but I thought I’d mention it because it was interesting:did you know Messiah’s teachings were not “new†per say? It may come as quite a shock (and even an impossibility) that Messiah (and Paul) taught Pharisaic doctrine quite frequently. This is one of the reasons Yahshua told the people to listen to them (Matthew 23:2-3). They didn’t do as they taught, however. That was usually his problem with them. Anyway, I just thought that was something to think about.

 

[Solo]

Good night. Going to a football game tomorrow (Atlanta Falcons). Gotta be there by 10 a.m. It's 3:00 a.m. here.


Peace/love

Atlanta who? Did they play football today?

Carolina put a thumping on them, of course Atlanta has had some injury problems all year.

 

[wavy]

Yeah, it was awful. I was all for Carolina, but I changed sides because I felt so bad for the Falcons. Seeing it in real life is much different than on t.v.

On t.v. I would have been like "the Falcons ****!!"

It was horrible. There were many Carolina fans there also. They took over the noise in the arena in the latter half. You heard more cheers for the away team team than for Atlanta. I mean, it was just truly heartbreaking.

Yeah, I'm soft.

*edited by mod - :-? *

 

[Vic C.]

What happened to “there is neither Jew nor Gentile�??

That statement is reserved for those who were/are baptized in Jesus. It doesn't allow Jews who are not born again to be lumped into the same fold... not yet anyway.

... If we take these scriptures into account, we plainly see that this could only be carried out with a system of divinely appointed shophetim/judges, or, according to scriptures like Numbers 15:35, at the direct command of Yahweh. Many people think this was just a chaotic, mindless “kill em’ all†judgment to where if you see some one breaking the sabbath for instance (the penalty of which was death) you were to automatically find the nearest rock/stone/brick and start chucking, lol. This is not the case at all.

Um, most people here do realise it was not mob rule which determined whether or not one was to be stoned for their transgression(s). My oh my, how that had changed though when you look back at how quick they were to judge Jesus... and that pitiful mock of a trial He was subjected to. :o

But even though I believe it cannot possibly be done this way, Paul still recognized the instruction and principle of the whole ordeal. Consider the 5th chapter of 1st Corinthians. There was a fornicator in the midst of the congregation. He told them to put him away out of their midst (1 Corinthians 5:13). This is not his doctrine, however. This is a Torah principle (Deuteronomy 17:12, for instance). Even laying hands on some one (to judge them) is found in Paul’s torah (1 Timothy 5:22, and see Leviticus 24:14 for an example). Even the torah of two or three witnesses is applied in this same scripture (1 Timothy 5:19, found in Deuteronomy 17:6 and Deuteronomy 19:15). And at that, the Torah of not muzzling an ox that treads out the corn is spoken of for Timothy’s instruction (1 Timothy 5:18 as well as in 1 Corinthians 9:9-10, both found in Deuteronomy 25:4). Paul clearly taught Torah.

Interesting, you are not a Pauline Christian, yet you would use a Pauline passage to support your position. Lets compare this to what Jesus said:

John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her....
John 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
John 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
John 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Jesus neither suggested stoning nor putting away in this case. Why?

Well, this would only be a problem if we divided it in this way. No division into “moral, ceremonial†etc indications are made by Moses, Yahshua, or Yahweh the Father. Yahshua said all the Torah AND the prophets hang upon Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:18. It’s a collective of one principle. It’s not divided by such terminology (which is manmade; not saying you have done this yourself, however).

I disagree. It was Jesus Himself who divided the Law this way when He said this:

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

I believe the Law was divided up properly. When Jesus said what He said in Matthew 22:37, He was 1) paraphrasing from the OT, which you pointed out; 2) He was referring to the first four commandments.

When He said what He said in Matthew 22:39, He was referring to the last six commandments.

Yes, all the law does hang on these two commantments. 2=10 in this case.

All Torah is “moralâ€Â. Why? Because each and every commandment hangs upon one, true moral principle: love. This is the reason we keep his commandments (Exodus 20:6; John 14:15).

Love wasn't necessarily the motivating factor behind most of the Torah. Obedience played a large part.

Must I atone for my sins once a year, or did that all change?

I believe the book of Hebrews make this clear.

It most certainly does.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Now compare that to Exodus 30:10

And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.

According to the verse directly above, it suggests it is a commantment, one that we no longer have to practice according to Hebrews 10:10 and John 1:29
.

Should I be celebrating Pentecost as though it was still Shavuot? Do I even have to celebrade Pentecost at all?

Pentecost is the same thing as Shavuot (or am I going crazy?)

Pentecost has taken on a whole new meaning and significance since the ascendance of Christ. God chose that day because He knew the Jews from all over would be gathered in one place. A perfect time to pour out His Spirit on people.

Shavuot is the celebration of the harvest season the the anniversary of the giving of the Ten Commandments. I guess we could say we celebrate this when we celebrate the birth of our Savior.

Out of religious bondage, yes. Not out of Torah, which is Yahweh’s Word. And Torah cannot be defined as “wilderness†(if that is what you were implying -- sorry if you were not)

I wasn't and I guess you missed the comparison I was making.

Torah is spiritual (Romans 7:14). The wilderness is the world. As for who the “captives†are, these are exiled Israelites in all nations.

"The wilderness is the world". Exactly. We were led out of the wilderness by whom? Jesus. We were all captives until we become born again and were set free from captivity by whom? Jesus.

This has little to do with anything I just said, but I thought I’d mention it because it was interesting: did you know Messiah’s teachings were not “new†per say? It may come as quite a shock (and even an impossibility) that Messiah (and Paul) taught Pharisaic doctrine quite frequently.

You need to add to that, that proper doctrine was taught, not the doctrine of men that the pharisee taught.

Wavy, get to know the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world. It is truely an experience in freedom. :angel:

 

[John the Baptist]

Hay Vic, Good post! (I am proud of you :fadein

Also, thanks for putting the thread back on target & off football, huh? And that game was on the Lord's day??? It is interesting how some think that they can go out and paint the town all red, pink, purple & blue on the ... (never mind :wink

---John

 

[Solo]

Hay Vic, Good post! (I am proud of you :fadein

Also, thanks for putting the thread back on target & off football, huh? And that game was on the Lord's day??? It is interesting how some think that they can go out and paint the town all red, pink, purple & blue on the ... (never mind :wink

---John

John,
Did you not know that God is a Denver Bronco fan, and it doesn't matter what day they play on, God is going to watch them! :D

 

[wavy]

That statement is reserved for those who were/are baptized in Jesus. It doesn't allow Jews who are not born again to be lumped into the same fold... not yet anyway.

I can understand this. This goes for anyone though, not just Jews. If you are not a believer, you are not part of new covenant Israel.

I still think that may be where we differ, however. You don't believe the NT is about new covenant Israel...

Interesting, you are not a Pauline Christian, yet you would use a Pauline passage to support your position.

Well, I believe what's called a "Pauline Christian" is manmade (and it is) terminology because people don't understand Paul.

Paul seems to have established the Messiah rather than the other way around. People take his words over the Messiah's (not accusing you, however). I think the main reason is because his writings seem "less Jewish".

Lets compare this to what Jesus said:

Jesus neither suggested stoning nor putting away in this case. Why?

A fair question. I think you must know the Torah to know the answer. There's two ways, imo, as to why this incident went wrong.

They brought the woman without the man (that was one error that had been made). The Torah indicates that both the man and the woman caught in adultery were to be put to death (Leviticus 20:10). They, however, favored the woman to use to try to accuse the Messiah. They hadn't even gone through with the right procedures. They had only set this up to accuse the Messiah as John 8:6 says. They weren't judging righteous judgment (a Torah requirment, of course, found in many passages).

There is an interesting explanation as to what Messiah was writing on the ground in this passage. It could be very possible that he was writing down the Torah commandments that accused them of doing wrong.

The other one is that (and I'm sure you heard of this one perhaps) that what he was writing was Jeremiah 17:13, where those who forsake the living waters were prophesied to be "written in the earth".

He had been in the Temple the day before, declaring himself as those living waters in the previous chapter (John 7:37-38). So when he came to the Temple again the next day, he could have written down Isaiah 12:3 and Jeremiah 17:13. When those who heard his words ("he that is without sin, let him cast...") after he wrote in the ground , they somehow became convicted in themselves (John 8:9) and walked out. Possibly realizing that before their eyes that prophesy was coming to pass. They had forsaken the living waters.

Either way, the people were at fault, and Messiah upheld the Torah. He asked the woman where her accusers were (her witnesses, since out of the mouth of two-three witnesses is some one put to death - Deuteronomy 17:6), and if no man had condemned/judged her. After they had left, she had no witnesses against her. Messiah didn't catch her himself in the act and even if he had, he was only one witness (and you need at least two). So he said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more". True Torah knowledge and judgment.

If anyone upheld the Torah here, it was indeed the Messiah. Any prophet trying to turn away the people from any of the Torah commandments is supposed to be rightfully condemned (Deuteronomy 13:1-5). Messiah never broke Torah however. He was without sin and without fault before Yahweh's Word. He was put to death wrongfully. Had he been "changing the law" or ignoring it or deliberately breaking it, he would have rightly been put to death. I know that he was sinless, however, and considered all the Word authorative and not an old, bondage document.

I disagree. It was Jesus Himself who divided the Law this way when He said this:

Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

And how in the world he divide it? There is no basis for this. There's greater and there's lesser commandments. There's heavier and lighter commandments. But it's all one Torah. Messiah said we should do and teach even the least of them (Matthew 5:19). It's not about doing the greater ones only because they are greater. It's about putting the greater first and even being faithful in the least of things (thus, being made a ruler over many).

I believe the Law was divided up properly. When Jesus said what He said in Matthew 22:37, He was 1) paraphrasing from the OT, which you pointed out; 2) He was referring to the first four commandments.

When He said what He said in Matthew 22:39, He was referring to the last six commandments.

Yes, all the law does hang on these two commantments. 2=10 in this case.

Well, that's your opinion. The ten commandments were not singled out here. I'm sure he didn't mean 1/10,000th of the Torah found in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5 was somehow "all the law", and then added the prophets in there. You have to superimpose that. A Jew would have known what he meant. "Torah/Law" was not "oh, that's just the ten commandments".

According to the verse directly above, it suggests it is a commantment, one that we no longer have to practice according to Hebrews 10:10 and John 1:29

Not because the commandment was ignored or just changed abitrarily for no reason. I don't believe Yahweh operates that way. I have a whole thread on what Hebrews was speaking of. It's in Wavy's Views. I'm sure you don't want to get into it or read it. It's long.

I guess we could say we celebrate this when we celebrate the birth of our Savior.

Well, that's mere opinion. It's not in the bible.

You need to add to that, that proper doctrine was taught, not the doctrine of men that the pharisee taught.

Not all that the Pharisees taught were "doctrines of men". But anyway, my point was that much of his proper doctrine was Pharisaic doctrine.

Wavy, get to know the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world. It is truely an experience in freedom. :angel:

Oh, I see. I don't hold your opinions and so I do not know the Messiah...

Well, we all have our opinions, I guess.

Be cool. Peace/love.

 

[DivineNames]

Jesus kept the Torah and saves those who are unable to. Perhaps you have kept the entire torah, and if you have there is only one other that has, Jesus Christ.

Jesus did not keep the "entire torah". As has been mentioned, it would be impossible for anyone to do that. Jesus didn't even keep all of what applied to him.

"Be fruitful, and multiply" (Genesis 1:28 KJV)

When did Jesus have children?

For seven days eat bread made without yeast and on the seventh day hold a festival to the LORD. Eat unleavened bread during those seven days; nothing with yeast in it is to be seen among you, nor shall any yeast be seen anywhere within your borders. (Exodus 13:6-7 NIV)

Jesus handed out leavened bread to his disciples at the last supper.

 

[Solo]

Jesus kept the Torah and saves those who are unable to. Perhaps you have kept the entire torah, and if you have there is only one other that has, Jesus Christ.

Jesus did not keep the "entire torah". As has been mentioned, it would be impossible for anyone to do that. Jesus didn't even keep all of what applied to him.

Yes he did.

"Be fruitful, and multiply" (Genesis 1:28 KJV)

When did Jesus have children?

Jesus gave this command to Adam and Eve.

For seven days eat bread made without yeast and on the seventh day hold a festival to the LORD. Eat unleavened bread during those seven days; nothing with yeast in it is to be seen among you, nor shall any yeast be seen anywhere within your borders. (Exodus 13:6-7 NIV)

Jesus handed out leavened bread to his disciples at the last supper.

It was fine for Jesus to do as he saw fit. When he judges your unbelief you can ask him who was more righteous in life, him or you.

 

[wavy]

Jesus handed out leavened bread to his disciples at the last supper.

I don't think this is true. I believe the meaning of the "bread" that was given was lost in translation and the general word for "bread" was used. There's no need to play semantics here. I don't believe there would be a need to say "unleavened bread" in those passages as that would already be understood. Why keep the feast at all if not to do it right ?

 

[Vic C.]

Jesus handed out leavened bread to his disciples at the last supper.

I don't think this is true. I believe the meaning of the "bread" that was given was lost in translation and the general word for "bread" was used. There's no need to play semantics here. I don't believe there would be a need to say "unleavened bread" in those passages as that would already be understood. Why keep the feast at all if not to do it right ?

What should have been mentioned here is that it was called "The Feast of Unleavened Bread" Not only was unleavened bread used by Jesus, the Feast lasted secen days.

Exo 23:15 Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: (thou shalt eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time appointed of the month Abib; for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and none shall appear before me empty

Also, Jesus and Paul both knew what the use of leaven meant:

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. (not a good thing)

Mat 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

1 Cor 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? (again, not a good thing)

 

[DivineNames]

"Be fruitful, and multiply" (Genesis 1:28 KJV)

When did Jesus have children?

Jesus gave this command to Adam and Eve.

List of the 613 Mitzvot
http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

(No. 63 in the list)

According to Judaism, the command goes beyond merely Adam and Eve.

 

[Solo]

"Be fruitful, and multiply" (Genesis 1:28 KJV)

When did Jesus have children?

Jesus gave this command to Adam and Eve.

List of the 613 Mitzvot
http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

(No. 63 in the list)

According to Judaism, the command goes beyond merely Adam and Eve.

Where does God command the Jews to be fruitful and multiply as a commandment?

 

[DivineNames]

It was fine for Jesus to do as he saw fit. When he judges your unbelief you can ask him who was more righteous in life, him or you.

You seem to think that Jesus could do whatever he liked, and still have "kept" the Torah.

In which case, you are using the words in a different way to everyone else. The claim we would naturally think you were making, is not actually what you are saying. Well OK, but Jesus did not keep all of the Torah that applied to him, in the normal meaning of that sentence.

Some Christians seem to think that Jesus would have a "right" to change the law. (As Jesus is God.) Even if we assume that Jesus had a "right" to change the law, it wouldn't change the fact that it would be inconsistent to do so, as the law was "forever" I believe. Jesus would make God dishonest if Jesus tried to alter the law.