I have a serious question, believers

[wavy]

With regard to the argument about Zechariah and Elizabeth, a Jew obviously wouldn't accept it, and I am guessing that orthodox Christians wouldn't accept it either? (As they don't believe that anyone could be truly "blameless" except for Jesus.)

Well, I don't interpret scripture off of what an orthodox Jew or Christian would think.

 

[lovely]

I have three young children, and today my oldest sighed loudly when I asked him to help his sister on with her shoes...he is nine, and she is four. He helped her, and very promptly too, but he was disciplined when he was finished.

Christ was our redemption, our liberty from the bondage of eternal sin, but He also gave us the liberty to walk in obedience to Him, and an atonement for our failures as we strive to do this. We are no longer slaves, but sons. He tells us that if we love Him, we will keep His commandments. This is by the Spirit that dwells in us, the mark (or evidence) of who we are.

All the laws, and the prophets, hang on these two commandments...love the Lord your God with all your heart, and the second is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. If we are His sons, and we love Him, then we obey Him out of that love, loving Him first, and then others by serving both with a heart in loving obedience before the Lord, and putting them ahead of ourselves. This is how we grow in Him, how we are protected, instructed, and disciplined by Him. The clear principal is to not put yourself first, and it is hard to be willful ( or feel "bound" by the law that one's soul loves) when your heart is in such a prostrate position before the Lord.

Galations 4 speaks of how some who walk in the flesh were born of the bondservant, and those who walk in the Spirit were born of the free woman...born of a promise to be heirs. We must walk as sons, and daughters, of promise. We must love him, and desire to love His law, as David so passionately prayed to do in Psalm 119; (Keeping it forefront in our hearts and minds that we might not sin against Him) but we must also realize that since we are still entangled with the flesh, and falleness of creation, we rely on the grace, and mercy, that He has extended to us freely. This grace, and mercy, is not to be a license to sin, but rather tempered with a holy fear of God, and a heart that is ever so meek and grateful for an atonement for that which we could not accomplish in ourselves. This grace, and mercy, is the very thing that inspires us to obey Christ.

Should we obey the Torah? Well, I think we should do our best to live righteously before God, but to put things like the the Torah, or part of it, like the sabbath, up to be made an idol, something we form the doctrines of man around, and to tower that doctrine over others in a brow beating manner...well, this is not true obedience. I can see where obedience to the Torah is a very good thing, but it should be in the Spirit, not in the flesh. There are blessings, and natural good results, that come from obeying God. I think if it is done in the Spirit, then you will observe it, and it will brighten your light of Christ, and you will extend an abundance of grace, and mercy, to those who do not. It will make you more of a beacon of the gospel of Christ as you walk in obedience to Him, but not a proponent of obedience to theTorah. The Lord bless you.

 

[DivineNames]

Yes, but I notice you have changed your position. You previously claimed you didn't think it was unlawful. Now it seems you accept it was (technically!) unlawful.

Actually, I said "technically" first, but that was meant only to mean according to the letter without true knowledge. I always stood by it being "assumed" to be unlawful.

So the act of picking grain on the Sabbath is unlawful.

I don't get how you ascertain this from anything I said. You are actually ignoring the true gist of what I am saying and trying to pick grains that are not there...

The disciples act was contrary to the law. Jesus must have accepted this, or he wouldn't have made an analogy with a supposedly unlawful act of David's.

Jesus may have believed that he had a good reason to break the "letter of the law". If that is the case, it looks false. His disciples merely wanted a light snack.

 

[DivineNames]

It doesn't talk about priests, "who understand what they do is permissible...", you are reading that into what the Bible says

Take it out then. The point still stands. You are not actually sticking to the point. You are, again, trying to pick apart things that have little (nothing) to do with the overall point...

You seemed to pass over everything else I said...

You gave a very dodgy interpretation of the Bible, I think that is worth addressing.

 

[DivineNames]

So the act of picking grain on the Sabbath is unlawful.

I don't get how you ascertain this from anything I said. You are actually ignoring the true gist of what I am saying and trying to pick grains that are not there...

Well I thought you had accepted the point about the analogy with David. However, if you disagree, why on earth would Jesus make an analogy with a (supposedly) unlawful act, if he didn't accept that the act of his disciples was unlawful?

 

[DivineNames]

wavy, you think the law should still be followed?

Do you think we should ideally have a theocracy, and implement the O.T. punishments? Should we be stoning people to death?

this was answered on one of the previous pages.

Well I can't be bothered to read all the pages. I guess that you must be either inconsistent or crazy enough to want to stone people!