I know this will trigger some people, but I will ask the unaskable

[Josef]

Hey All,
One of the biggest fallacies is that you can separate emotions from logic. Maybe in a mathematics problem, but not in real life.

If the killing of 6,000,000 innocent civilians of your own country, legally there, working hard, adding to the economy, with generations of family members, get rounded up and shipped to a different place where they are starved to death or gassed as the case may be, doesn't get you emotional, what feelings do you have? Equating Auschwitz to a POW camp shows a gross ignorance of the facts.
POW camps had rules.
The Geneva convention specifically dealt with how prisoners were to be treated.
The red cross would come in periodically and inspect the camps.
Livable conditions had to be provided.
Nourishment had be enough to keep the men alive. There were no such rules at Auschwitz. Read history before you try to ignore it soldiers.

As for the Japanese internment camps, there is no denying that the USA screwed up bad. Our biggest mistake was not trusting that they were American citizens and not Japanese citizens anymore.Yes it was wrong and will always be wrong. But we did not gas them, or starve them to death. The children went to school. They were allowed to grow gardens. They even had baseball and softball leagues. So as bad as they were, and no sugar coating, they were stupid wrong, they were nowhere near even POW camps. Please educate yourself before you make such statements.

I know you did this just to get people like me riled up.I don't believe you care about the topic at all. You just wanted to push people's buttons. Well you pushed mine. I come to this site for a little relaxing Jesus talk. I never thought I was going to be talking about Auschwitz in these forums. Try posting your nonsense in the Jewish forum. You are probably sitting there thinking what a big joke you played on us. If that is the type of person you are, I feel sorrow for you.

Taz

 

[Rookie]

One of the biggest fallacies is that you can separate emotions from logic. Maybe in a mathematics problem, but not in real life.

Incorrect actually, here are a few quotes to counter that:

Most of the mistakes are due to allowing emotion to overtake logical thinking and approach. We knew the right thing but did not abey the right.
- Anil Sinha

Feelings ought to be kept for literature and art, where they are delightful and not intruded into life where they are merely a nuisance
- C.S. Lewis

As for the Japanese internment camps, there is no denying that the USA screwed up bad. Our biggest mistake was not trusting that they were American citizens and not Japanese citizens anymore.Yes it was wrong and will always be wrong. But we did not gas them, or starve them to death. The children went to school. They were allowed to grow gardens. They even had baseball and softball leagues. So as bad as they were, and no sugar coating, they were stupid wrong, they were nowhere near even POW camps. Please educate yourself before you make such statements.

Why did i even mention to Japanese camps, as people are using that as an escape route to addressing the irrefutable facts I put up about the medieval, Roman, and B.C. torture period.

You want to talk about gas? Christians faces the brazen bull, and were deep fried into gas!
You want to talk about starving to death? Christians were continuously put into Roman courts and mauled by near death-starved lions.

Christians underwent asphyxiation, they were crucified by the masses, burned alive, even boiled alive, or deep fried in oil alive (like John). They were flogged with whips so powerful, sharp & lethal, that one lash could rip your intestines out. They were fed to dogs, the pregnant women were ripped open by the sword and almost wiped from the face of the earth.

Then I year the, "well it's not current" line coming.

Every day, about 52 Christians are put to death for causes of the faith, every single day, whether they are hanged, tortured, or lines up on a beach and shot. Paul Washer told the story of one particular girl who was fed her mothers vomit for a whole year as soon as she became Christian, and was locked permanently in a room, until her family got drunk one night and decided to kill her, which thank God her sister had enough compassion to let her escape.

And even with other genocides. Stalin killed 20 million people during his dictatorship, what about him?
Mao Zedong killed 45 million people, we don't here nothing about him do we?

I know you did this just to get people like me riled up.I don't believe you care about the topic at all.

Thanks for your opinion, but the fact your making quite baseless assumptions absolutely obliterates your credibility, stick to facts. When we make assumptions we can't prove it proves C.S. Lewis' point, our emotions crowd our logic and reason and we make erroneous conclusions.

I know you did this just to get people like me riled up.I don't believe you care about the topic at all. You just wanted to push people's buttons. Well you pushed mine. I come to this site for a little relaxing Jesus talk. I never thought I was going to be talking about Auschwitz in these forums. Try posting your nonsense in the Jewish forum. You are probably sitting there thinking what a big joke you played on us. If that is the type of person you are, I feel sorrow for you.

This whole quite baseless accusation with absolutely zero ground to stand on is what destroys your credibility, and proves my point.

Good day!

 

[WIP]

As I was concerned about this from the start, especially when I read the opening statement, I am locking this discussion before things get worse citing TOS 1.5: No trolling. No flaming or remarks used to intentionally upset members. Intentional disruption of this nature may result in immediate termination of your membership.

 

[WIP]

After discussing this with the staff, it has been decided to reopen this thread. Please remember to keep your comments related to the topic and not each other personally. We may get emotional but we do not have to allow our emotions to take over. As James put it,...

Indeed, we put bits in horses’ mouths that they may obey us, and we turn their whole body. Look also at ships: although they are so large and are driven by fierce winds, they are turned by a very small rudder wherever the pilot desires. Even so the tongue is a little member and boasts great things. See how great a forest a little fire kindles! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless our God and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceed blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be so.
James 3:3-10 NKJV

 

[journeymanisnothing]

It is God-related, but since God's people, according to Scripture, were of a certain race, then to deny God but hate God's people, racism was created.

God chose believers, not a race. Gods' people are those of fairh, regardless of race,

Which were born, not of blood...Jn.1:13

Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him. Isa.51:2

They which are the children of the flesh,these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Rom.9:8

 

[WIP]

God chose believers, not a race. Gods' people are those of fairh, regardless of race,

How do we understand this in light of His chosen people, Israel?

Actually, this might be part of the answer to the original question. Israel (Jews) are God's chosen, right? Maybe that is why the horrors of the holocaust get more press than others?

 

[daninthelionsden]

How do we understand this in light of His chosen people, Israel?

Actually, this might be part of the answer to the original question. Israel (Jews) are God's chosen, right? Maybe that is why the horrors of the holocaust get more press than others?

Jealousy can be a prime motivator, just ask Cain.

 

[daninthelionsden]

God chose believers, not a race. Gods' people are those of fairh, regardless of race,

Which were born, not of blood...Jn.1:13

Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him. Isa.51:2

They which are the children of the flesh,these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Rom.9:8

Isn't it:
Old Testament.....bloodline + faith
New Testament......faith through blood( His blood)

 

[Rookie]

God chose believers, not a race. Gods' people are those of fairh, regardless of race,

This is correct, however the world is not God, and the world perceives things in a polar opposite light,

1 Samuel 16:7 "...for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”

 

[hawkman]

Slavery still exists

Indeed slavery still exists period and not just in factories . Just a couple of links just in my state , there are many more sadly .

Children as young as 12 have been working at a Hyundai-owned factory in Alabama, report says

Teen risked all to flee Guatemala. Her payoff: grueling job in U.S. chicken plant

 

[journeymanisnothing]

How do we understand this in light of His chosen people, Israel?

Actually, this might be part of the answer to the original question. Israel (Jews) are God's chosen, right?

No my friend. Believing Jews are Gods' people. Unbelieving Jews aren't,

For they are not all Israel,which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. Rom.9:6-7

"In Isaac", because God told Abraham his descendants would come from Isaac his promised son. But later, God tells Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. How can descendants come from a dead man? Heb.11:19 shows us how Abraham obeyed because he believed God was able to raise him up, even from the dead. It's really about Abrahams faith in Jesus in figures.

Even the name Israel was bestowed on Jacob because he struggled in pain clinging onto the angel. Israel means "a prince who has power with God and man."
Jesus is called Israel (Hos.11:1, Mt.2:15.)
This prophecy of Christ from Hosea is only one verse, then the similarity between the Messiah and Jewish people in Hos.11:2 ends. God says of unbelieving Jews "I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest." Psa.95:11

Maybe that is why the horrors of the holocaust get more press than others?

I think it gets more press because a world war came from it. I think we need to focus on how the root of hatred for others isn't really because of race, or who owns what, etc. People simply hate God. Both Jews and Arabs claim to love God, but they hate one another. It's sad.

 

[Free]

My question is, why do we put so much on the Holocaust and the torture systems used there when if you put the unstable emotions aside, clear your logic, and look unbiasedly at the event, it was equated to a regular POW camp? Concentration camps existed a century before WWII, and prisons existed as far back as 1000 B.C. And far worse torture methods existed back in medieval times, especially during the Roman Empire era. But we put far more emphasis, emotion, and empathy on 1939-45, while worse has happened and literally nobody gives a crypt.

Having put "unstable emotions aside" and having cleared my logic (both rather poisoning the well), there is absolutely no way whatsoever that what happened in the Holocaust can be "equated to a regular POW camp."

"I AM NOT DEAMEANING THE HOLOCAUST

But

And then you proceed to demean the Holocaust, having already done so.

if you take the extreme emotionalism factor out of 1939-45, you can see the camps were just classic P.O.W. camps. Even US pow camps from the Japanese or during the civil war were almost as bad as the nazi's. Prisons existed for thousands of years, even going back to 1000 B.C. many of which had far worse conditions than the Nazi concentration camps & prisons.

"Extreme emotionalism." Again, poisoning the well. I would be very concerned for someone who claimed to be a Christian but said to take the "extreme" emotionalism out of something like the Holocaust. Anyone who isn't absolutely appalled by what happened has a heart problem.

So let the floodgates of war and hatred come, I'm ready, but if you lead with your emotions, your only further proving the point of this thread. Try to pause and think logically, take a 1-minute breather, do 20 pushups, 8 jumping jacks, eat some tofu or a watermelon, something!

Removing one's emotions should not be done for something like the Holocaust, especially from someone who professes to be a Christian. The only reason one would do that is to detach themselves from the horrific evils that were done and justify some sort of justification.

Do you take your emotions out of discussions about what is happening in the Gaza Strip? It doesn't look like it to me. Maybe you should and just look at the cold hard facts and see why Israel is justified in their response. Don't debate that here; just making a point.

Your entire post is antisemitism. I think you need to rethink your position on these matters.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

This is correct, however the world is not God, and the world perceives things in a polar opposite light,

So do many within the church. God never saw his Son as cursed. The religious leaders did. Some people seeing Jesus in agony hanging from that cross thought he must have committed some crime. Some mocked him.

1 Samuel 16:7 "...for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”

Exactly. They thought he was like you and me. They didn't see how they sinned against God.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Isn't it:
Old Testament.....bloodline + faith
New Testament......faith through blood( His blood)

I know believing Jews are Gods' people. Israel became a mix of believers and unbelievers. This is why they say,

Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very smal lremnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah. Isa.1:9

So Jesus said,

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. Mt.13:30

 

[Rookie]

Having put "unstable emotions aside" and having cleared my logic (both rather poisoning the well), there is absolutely no way whatsoever that what happened in the Holocaust can be "equated to a regular POW camp."

How many times will folk take the bulk of the talk out of context, obviously because if I weren't taking out of context people will have to admit I have a point. Since the human nature of pride refuses to admit it's wrong, they'll just avoid 90% of my posts, straw man & ad hominem me, and take what I said out of context.

Did you read the entirety of my post? Or just the first 2 sentences?

And then you proceed to demean the Holocaust, having already done so.

Saying that Stalin killed 16 million more than Hitler, Hao Zedong killed 39 million more than Hitler, Nero killing Christians way worse than Hitler, European slavery racking up victims up to 9 million more lives than Hitler, saying that European Jews didn't get burned to death in bronze bulls, don't have 52 their community dead everyday, don't experience 80% more persecution than all other major religions combined, never felt a whip that tore out their flesh and organs, never been crucified, never faced asphyxiation, never been boiled alive, never been deep fried alive, never been hated since their inception (everything listed, 100% irrefutable fact), is demeaning the Holocasut? Well then I guess according to your logic, I did.

This part probably won't get responded to as it's never been, but it is, please lets keep things in context.

"Extreme emotionalism." Again, poisoning the well. I would be very concerned for someone who claimed to be a Christian but said to take the "extreme" emotionalism out of something like the Holocaust. Anyone who isn't absolutely appalled by what happened has a heart problem.

Again, your emotions are speaking, clearly. And you're taking me out of context yet again. Anyone should be appalled by death, no matter who has died. So I'm appalled at the Holocaust. But I'm more appalled about the 70 million Christians who have been martyred over the last 2 millennia (https://www.gordonconwell.edu/blog/christian-martyrdom-who-why-how/), Stalin's 20 million (https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/USSR.CHAP.1.HTM), Zedong's 45 million (https://www.heritage.org/asia/commentary/the-legacy-mao-zedong-mass-murder). Anyone who isn't absolutely appalled by that has a soul problem.

Removing one's emotions should not be done for something like the Holocaust, especially from someone who professes to be a Christian.

With all due respect, being conformed to the world and corrupted by the disruption of your mind at the expense of pride should not be done by any Christian, especially a Christian Leader. Not mourning the death of your own spiritual flesh & blood is far worse than not mourning the death of people who claim to be Jews.

Don't use the Christian card on me because whatever measure you use to judge, it comes right back around.

Do you take your emotions out of discussions about what is happening in the Gaza Strip? It doesn't look like it to me.

That's why it's for me to know, the best you can do is guess.

Your entire post is antisemitism. I think you need to rethink your position on these matters.

I think you need to read more than the first couple of sentences because if you actually did, Jews aren't even the focal point of it. This comment proves my entire argument all the more, and the resistance is only further strengthening it. It was even predicted in the title.

Maybe you should and just look at the cold hard facts and see why Israel is justified in their response. Don't debate that here; just making a point.

That's the thing, only you are thinking this is about that, no one else said or thought it was. Making assumptions without any basis is a first-ticket measure to flushing your credibility down the drain. As has been done several times by commentators here.


Now if I really need to rethink my position, please address my position in its entirety, rectify how it is sinful and an atrocity to the name of Christ that I say that and please rectify how I am violating the 11th Commandment of not being the ever-so-definition-changing term of antisemitism. And if I'm really wrong, it's your duty as a Christian, an older Christian, and a Christian Leader & admin to bring me out of the darkness, I've taken back several of my own positions, even in some of our conversations, so I'm willing to learn.

So if you may sir, show me why the 70 million Christians killed by anti-Christ people in power (via whip scourging, deep frying, boiling alive, crucified, asphyxiation, feeding to lions, stonings to death, being burned alive, pregnant women ripped open, shot, hanged, blown up, mutilated & executed)
45 million Chinese by Mao Zedong
20 million Russians by Stalin
15 million African Americans, 56 million Indigenous, 100 million Indians all killed by European colonizers, are insignificant compared to the Holocaust. Tell me why those specific 306 million+ (including 70 million Christians), are insects and not worthy to be lamented over compared to the 6 million European Jews and how me holding a different view in that aspect is so sinful and wrong.

(And as in your own words on the Israel forum), "If you dare!"

 

[eddif]

Your entire post is antisemitism. I think you need to rethink your position on these matters.

Maybe Free, and I am not against what you are saying.

There is another, IMHO, way to look at this whole thing.

Our (whoever our individual our is) individual existence is often elevated.

Our family, our nation, our thoughts, our everything can consume us. That does degrade others, but that is our fallen nature.
Our new nature is to consider others more important than ourselves.

Philippians 2:3 kjv
3. Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Easy quoted, but hard to allow. I think someone else already said this.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Free]

How many times will folk take the bulk of the talk out of context, obviously because if I weren't taking out of context people will have to admit I have a point. Since the human nature of pride refuses to admit it's wrong, they'll just avoid 90% of my posts, straw man & ad hominem me, and take what I said out of context.

Did you read the entirety of my post? Or just the first 2 sentences?

I read it all.

Saying that Stalin killed 16 million more than Hitler, Hao Zedong killed 39 million more than Hitler, Nero killing Christians way worse than Hitler, European slavery racking up victims up to 9 million more lives than Hitler, saying that European Jews didn't get burned to death in bronze bulls, don't have 52 their community dead everyday, don't experience 80% more persecution than all other major religions combined, never felt a whip that tore out their flesh and organs, never been crucified, never faced asphyxiation, never been boiled alive, never been deep fried alive, never been hated since their inception (everything listed, 100% irrefutable fact), is demeaning the Holocasut? Well then I guess according to your logic, I did.

This part probably won't get responded to as it's never been, but it is, please lets keep things in context.

I did. You demeaned the Holocaust by comparing it to other atrocities. That is rather the whole point of that post. Those "buts" always refute what comes before.

Anyone should be appalled by death, no matter who has died. So I'm appalled at the Holocaust. But I'm more appalled about the 70 million Christians who have been martyred over the last 2 millennia (https://www.gordonconwell.edu/blog/christian-martyrdom-who-why-how/), Stalin's 20 million (https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/USSR.CHAP.1.HTM), Zedong's 45 million (https://www.heritage.org/asia/commentary/the-legacy-mao-zedong-mass-murder). Anyone who isn't absolutely appalled by that has a soul problem.

I agree. But that's not the issue.

With all due respect, being conformed to the world and corrupted by the disruption of your mind at the expense of pride should not be done by any Christian, especially a Christian Leader. Not mourning the death of your own spiritual flesh & blood is far worse than not mourning the death of people who claim to be Jews.

Again, I agree. But that's not the issue.

Don't use the Christian card on me because whatever measure you use to judge, it comes right back around.

Did you say to Christians that they should remove their emotions when looking at the Holocaust? What justification can you give for that?

That's why it's for me to know, the best you can do is guess.

It's not a guess. Just like your emotion in this discussion; it's fairly easy to read. I just want to know why you want to take the emotion out of looking at the Holocaust, but not when it comes to something

I think you need to read more than the first couple of sentences because if you actually did, Jews aren't even the focal point of it. This comment proves my entire argument all the more, and the resistance is only further strengthening it. It was even predicted in the title.

That's the thing, only you are thinking this is about that, no one else said or thought it was. Making assumptions without any basis is a first-ticket measure to flushing your credibility down the drain. As has been done several times by commentators here.


Now if I really need to rethink my position, please address my position in its entirety, rectify how it is sinful and an atrocity to the name of Christ that I say that and please rectify how I am violating the 11th Commandment of not being the ever-so-definition-changing term of antisemitism. And if I'm really wrong, it's your duty as a Christian, an older Christian, and a Christian Leader & admin to bring me out of the darkness, I've taken back several of my own positions, even in some of our conversations, so I'm willing to learn.

Downplaying what happened in the Holocaust is antisemitism. Do you deny that you are downplaying the Holocaust when you are comparing it to "worse" atrocities (more deaths) and tortures (moral equivalence fallacy)?

So if you may sir, show me why the 70 million Christians killed by anti-Christ people in power (via whip scourging, deep frying, boiling alive, crucified, asphyxiation, feeding to lions, stonings to death, being burned alive, pregnant women ripped open, shot, hanged, blown up, mutilated & executed)
45 million Chinese by Mao Zedong
20 million Russians by Stalin
15 million African Americans, 56 million Indigenous, 100 million Indians all killed by European colonizers, are insignificant compared to the Holocaust. Tell me why those specific 306 million+ (including 70 million Christians), are insects and not worthy to be lamented over compared to the 6 million European Jews and how me holding a different view in that aspect is so sinful and wrong.

I never made any such claims.

 

[hawkman]

Torture methods back then far exceeded the torture methods of 1939-1945, especially during the Roman Empire era which had some of the absolutely worse torture methods such as:
asphyxiation
crucifixion
punitive scourging on the back using metal whips filled with broken glass, sharp animal bones, rigid steel blades, (one lash from the aggressive professional executioners can rip out, damage, and even the internal organs and even expose them)
the legendary brazen bull device (which puts you in a bronze, bull-shaped container, which they light a fire under it which you are grilled alive.)
Being fed to intensely-starved lions
Being burned alive
Being boiled alive
Being deep-fried alive
And many other methods far exceed cruelty.

Soldiers some of the ones that were tortured 1939-1945 are still with us and you could ask them how bad the torture was . Man had progressed with things by WWII and if you study what went on at the prisons you will find that there were equally heinous things happening to human beings . I have read about gloves and lamp shades made out of human skin .
Nazi human experimentation

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Anyone should be appalled by death, no matter who has died.

We need to understand how God sees death and why. His anger corrects, or else condemns. Unless we are specifically told by God why anyone died, we don't know. We can only know about ourselves.

We should be appalled by our Saviors' death, at what was done to him for no lawful reason. Our Father sees our deaths for believing in him as precious and no one is more dear to him than his Son.

 

[Rookie]

I read it all.

I wouldn't be able to tell.

I did. You demeaned the Holocaust by comparing it to other atrocities. That is rather the whole point of that post. Those "buts" always refute what comes before.

Saying a clear fact that 306 million > 6 million is demeaning? Wow I thought it was radical when they redefined a woman, basic math is offensive...

I agree. But that's not the issue.

It's my thread that I posted, and my topic that I chose to focus on, which many attempted to divert the subject but failed. So it is the issue, because I made the topic.

Again, I agree. But that's not the issue.

Same answer as above. But you seem to be contradicting yourself, on one side you say you agree that death should be considered as death, no matter who it is, yet you put the lives of 6 million above 306 million. I have a theory on why, but it may be too "radical" to handle.

Did you say to Christians that they should remove their emotions when looking at the Holocaust? What justification can you give for that?

What Scripture supports leading with your emotionalism, leading with your feelings? I can assure you none. What Scripture supports.

Ephesians 4:26 "

But don’t let the passion of your emotions lead you to sin! Don’t let anger control you or be fuel for revenge, not for even a day..." (https://www.bible.com/bible/1849/EPH.4.26-32.TPT)
And a Bible commentary as a cherry on top:https://www.desiringgod.org/article...otions aren't imperatives; they,(Romans 6:12).

It's not a guess. Just like your emotion in this discussion; it's fairly easy to read. I just want to know why you want to take the emotion out of looking at the Holocaust, but not when it comes to something

I can assure you, since I'm me, and nobody else is, I know what I am. So it is a guess, because you nor anyone here can for sure say they know.

Downplaying what happened in the Holocaust is antisemitism. Do you deny that you are downplaying the Holocaust when you are comparing it to "worse" atrocities (more deaths) and tortures (moral equivalence fallacy)?

Forget the terminology, all it matters is truth vs lie. If it's truth, then I don't care what worldly conformed term there is to describe it, if it's a lie, then we can talk. So unless I lied, you have no biblical basis to refute me. Again Romans 12:2 in play.

I never made any such claims.

I beg to differ as what did you imply in the comment above this one^. And the one before?