Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

I think that 666 is witchcraft, magick, sorcery

Hi everyone. Is there anyone else that thinks the same?

Right hand and forehead is a metaphor for thinking evil since our brains are behind the forehead and most people are right handed it means doing evil.

Love and Thanks
 
Jesus came under the law. The law of Moses was external. If Jesus had been clear they would have done the ceremonial without an inner change of Heart and mind.

You are talking with a redneck. You can keep the law on the outside and not on the inside. I fight the battle myself.

At Pentecost the law was placed in hearts and minds. He (Jesus) works in us to will and do of his good pleasure.

The total depravity existed at Noah’s time. Mankind was almost totally destroyed.

Only evil continually is total depravity. To sin at times is terrible, but it is not total.

We all sin and fall short of the Glory of God.

Are we getting anywhere?

Mississippi redneck
eddif
Everything you stated is Biblically correct.
 
I remember somewhere that the Greek 666 very closely matches a phrase from Islam "In the name of Allah" I'd have to do some digging but I'm currently unable to do so. If I can find it I will post it here later.
From the Qur’an:

‘In the name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy.

‘Praise belongs to God, Lord of the Worlds, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy, Master of the Day of Judgement. It is You we worship; it is You we ask for help. Guide us to the straight path, the path of those You have blessed, those who incur no anger and who have not gone astray.’ (‘al-Fatihah’).

Why do you insult your Lord?
 
Last edited:
From the Qur’an:

‘In the name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy.

‘Praise belongs to God, Lord of the Worlds, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy, Master of the Day of Judgement. It is You we worship; it is You we ask for help. Guide us to the straight path, the path of those You have blessed, those who incur no anger and who have not gone astray.’ (‘al-Fatihah’).

Why do you insult your Lord?
Not sure what you mean, the allah of the quran is not the same Jehovah of the Bible. The two are very much diametrically opposed and mutually exclusive one to the other, you have to read the whole book to get the full view not just cherry pluck some verses out that look nice. This particular line of thought I find is not worth investing any more time in other than to say I disagree with your premise.
 
From the Qur’an:

‘In the name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy.

‘Praise belongs to God, Lord of the Worlds, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy, Master of the Day of Judgement. It is You we worship; it is You we ask for help. Guide us to the straight path, the path of those You have blessed, those who incur no anger and who have not gone astray.’ (‘al-Fatihah’).

Why do you insult your Lord?
The Lord of the Muslim Quran, is not the Lord of the Bible.
 
The Lord of the Muslim Quran, is not the Lord of the Bible.
Let’s look again at Sūrah ‘Al-Fatiha’:

‘In the name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy! Praise belongs to God, Lord of the Worlds, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy, Master of the Day of Judgement. It is You we worship; it is You we ask for help. Guide us to the straight path: the path of those You have blessed, those who incur no anger and who have not gone astray.’

The word ‘Rabb’ (‘Lord’) is derived from the same root as the Arabic for ‘womb’ (‘raḥim’); as such, it carries connotations of caring; of nurturing; of sustaining.

The words: ‘….of the Worlds’ renders the Arabic ‘Al- alamin’; meaning the worlds of mankind, of angels, of animals, of plants, of this world and the next, and so forth.

In short, the Sūrah speaks of a God who is the Creator and Sustainer of all that exists; who alone is worthy of worship.

Where in the Bible does it speak of two such Gods?
 
Not sure what you mean, the allah of the quran is not the same Jehovah of the Bible. The two are very much diametrically opposed and mutually exclusive one to the other, you have to read the whole book to get the full view not just cherry pluck some verses out that look nice. This particular line of thought I find is not worth investing any more time in other than to say I disagree with your premise.
Then we'll agree to disagree. Have a nice day.
 
Let’s look again at Sūrah ‘Al-Fatiha’:

‘In the name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy! Praise belongs to God, Lord of the Worlds, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy, Master of the Day of Judgement. It is You we worship; it is You we ask for help. Guide us to the straight path: the path of those You have blessed, those who incur no anger and who have not gone astray.’

The word ‘Rabb’ (‘Lord’) is derived from the same root as the Arabic for ‘womb’ (‘raḥim’); as such, it carries connotations of caring; of nurturing; of sustaining.

The words: ‘….of the Worlds’ renders the Arabic ‘Al- alamin’; meaning the worlds of mankind, of angels, of animals, of plants, of this world and the next, and so forth.

In short, the Sūrah speaks of a God who is the Creator and Sustainer of all that exists; who alone is worthy of worship.

Where in the Bible does it speak of two such Gods?
I guess you have a point......I do not know what it is.

Make sure you grasp what I AM saying. The God of the Quran is not the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible has a Son and His name is Jesus.

The Muslim faith has NO way to remove sin as does the Christain faith.
There are those who assume that Allah, the God of Islam, is just another name for Yahweh or Jehovah, the God of the Bible. However, it is clear that the God of Islam is not the same God as revealed in Scripture.

The God of the Bible Never Lies: Can that be said of Allah. Does the Quran Deceive?​

Actually It has been observed that in three different places the Quran actually teaches that Allah actually intentionally deceives people. They are as follows.

Surah 3:54....."And they planned and Allah (also) planned and Allah is the best of planners."

Surah 8:30......"And when those who disbelieved devised plans against you that they might confine you or slay you or drive you away; and they devised plans and Allah too had arranged a plan; and Allah is the best of planners."

Now, just to be clear, the English translations of these verses use words like “plan,” or “the best planner” when speaking of Allah. However, it has been argued that the Arabic word actually means “deceives.” If this is the case, then the Quran teaches that Allah is a God of deception.

Again, so that we are clear The Quran, contains direct attacks against the doctrine of the Trinity.

The Quran itself declares the following.

Surah 5:73........"Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve."

The following statement in the Queran could not be clearer; Allah does not have a son.
Surah 4:171...."O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak lies against Allah, but speak the truth; the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary is only an apostle of Allah and his Word which he communicated to Mary and a spirit from him; believe therefore in Allah and his apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from his glory that he should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is his, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector. "
 
I guess you have a point......I do not know what it is.

Make sure you grasp what I AM saying. The God of the Quran is not the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible has a Son and His name is Jesus.

The Muslim faith has NO way to remove sin as does the Christain faith.
There are those who assume that Allah, the God of Islam, is just another name for Yahweh or Jehovah, the God of the Bible. However, it is clear that the God of Islam is not the same God as revealed in Scripture.

The God of the Bible Never Lies: Can that be said of Allah. Does the Quran Deceive?​

Actually It has been observed that in three different places the Quran actually teaches that Allah actually intentionally deceives people. They are as follows.

Surah 3:54....."And they planned and Allah (also) planned and Allah is the best of planners."

Surah 8:30......"And when those who disbelieved devised plans against you that they might confine you or slay you or drive you away; and they devised plans and Allah too had arranged a plan; and Allah is the best of planners."

Now, just to be clear, the English translations of these verses use words like “plan,” or “the best planner” when speaking of Allah. However, it has been argued that the Arabic word actually means “deceives.” If this is the case, then the Quran teaches that Allah is a God of deception.

Again, so that we are clear The Quran, contains direct attacks against the doctrine of the Trinity.

The Quran itself declares the following.

Surah 5:73........"Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve."

The following statement in the Queran could not be clearer; Allah does not have a son.
Surah 4:171...."O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak lies against Allah, but speak the truth; the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary is only an apostle of Allah and his Word which he communicated to Mary and a spirit from him; believe therefore in Allah and his apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from his glory that he should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is his, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector. "
Greetings, Rodger,

Thank you for your courteous reply.

You have raised interesting topics; each deserving of a considered response.

I am working on this now; in šāʾ Allāh, I’ll come back….sooner, rather than later!

Have a great day.

Blessings.
 
Let’s look again at Sūrah ‘Al-Fatiha’:

‘In the name of God, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy! Praise belongs to God, Lord of the Worlds, the Lord of Mercy, the Giver of Mercy, Master of the Day of Judgement. It is You we worship; it is You we ask for help. Guide us to the straight path: the path of those You have blessed, those who incur no anger and who have not gone astray.’

The word ‘Rabb’ (‘Lord’) is derived from the same root as the Arabic for ‘womb’ (‘raḥim’); as such, it carries connotations of caring; of nurturing; of sustaining.

The words: ‘….of the Worlds’ renders the Arabic ‘Al- alamin’; meaning the worlds of mankind, of angels, of animals, of plants, of this world and the next, and so forth.

In short, the Sūrah speaks of a God who is the Creator and Sustainer of all that exists; who alone is worthy of worship.

Where in the Bible does it speak of two such Gods?
The Bible says there is only one God
 
I expect you believe that; after all, you are not a Muslim! :).

Blessings.
I respect what you believe. I have Muslim friends and we have stimulating discussions. The one thing that we agree on is that Christianity and Islam are not the same, Allah and Yahwah are not the same.
 
Greetings, Rodger,

Thank you for your courteous reply.

You have raised interesting topics; each deserving of a considered response.

I am working on this now; in šāʾ Allāh, I’ll come back….sooner, rather than later!

Have a great day.

Blessings.
I await your responce.
 
So does the Qur'an.

Both Books, of course, are correct. How could it be otherwise, since they come from the same Lord?
I do not like to argue but in this case you are incorrect my friend.

The Bible is the only inspired book which is the Word of God. The Quran does not come from God!

It was give supposedly given to Muhammed by an the angel Gabreial and the only verification of that is what Muhammed says. There is NO verification and no proof.
 
True, but the Koran is fictional book

I respect what you are saying and I do not mean to argue or contend, I would only say that the Quran is not a work of fiction as you have stated.

Rather, I would say that real historical facts from Muhammed's parents show that the Quran is a production from a man who had epilepsy.
 
So does the Qur'an.

Both Books, of course, are correct. How could it be otherwise, since they come from the same Lord?
There are millions of books that claim they came frrom God.

The fact is that there is only one that did and that is the Bible. 44 men wrote 66 books in the Bible over a span of 1500 years and there is not one single mistake!
 
Good morning, Rodger.

Sorry for the delayed reply.

You write:

‘The God of the Bible Never Lies: Can that be said of Allah. Does the Quran Deceive? ‘Actually, it has been observed that in three different places the Quran actually teaches that Allah actually intentionally deceives people. They are as follows.’

You then quote Sūrah ‘Al‘Imran’:

‘The (disbelievers) schemed but Allāh also schemed; Allāh is the Best of Schemers’. (ʾĀyah: 54)

And then Sūrah ‘Al-Anfa’l’:

‘Remember (Prophet) when the disbelievers plotted to take you captive, kill, or expel you. They schemed and so did Allāh: He is the best of schemers.’ (ʾĀyah: 30).

The word used to denote the act ‘planning’; ‘plotting’; or ‘scheming’ is ‘makr’. This word is never used to denote lying or deceiving.

Makr’ is to be taken literally when applied to the evil intentions and deeds of people.

When applied to the Beloved, on the other hand, it is a metaphorical reference to His power to thwart, or to defeat, the actions of the unrighteous. In reality, the Beloved has no need to plot, or to scheme:

‘He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth, and when He decrees something, He says only, ‘Be,’ and it is.’ (Sūrah ‘Al-Baqara: 117’).

The principal Qur’anic word used to denote the act of deception is gharūr.

Gharūr
is used to describe the actions of Satan; and of people; but never of the Beloved.

While gharūr is the principal Qur’anic word for ‘deception’; there is one other; namely ‘khadi’.

This word occurs just five times in the Qur’an. Only once is it used of the Beloved:

‘The hypocrites try to deceive Allāh, but it is He who causes them to be deceived (khādiʿuhum). When they stand up to pray, they do so sluggishly, showing off in front of people, and remember Allāh only a little, wavering all the time between this and that, belonging neither to one side nor the other. If Allāh leaves someone to stray, you (Prophet) will never find a way for him. (Sūrah ‘Al-Nisa’: 142-143; my emphases).

Sayyid 'Ibrāhīm Ḥusayn Quṭb writes:

‘These verses again touch believing hearts, which will undoubtedly feel disgust with people who try to deceive God. A believer knows that God, limitless is He in His glory, cannot be deceived. How could that be possible when He knows the innermost secrets of people’s hearts and what is even more deeply concealed. Believers realise that a person who tries to deceive God must have within him a great measure of evil, ignorance and naivety. Hence, they are disgusted with such people and look upon them with contempt.

‘The sūrah states that while they try to deceive God, it is indeed He who causes them to be deceived. He simply allows them to travel along their erring way, without alerting them by a calamity that opens their eyes. He leaves them to go along until they fall into the abyss towards which they aim. Calamities and trials can often be an act of mercy, as they deter people from going further into error, or they alert them to what they have overlooked. Favours and affluence may also be a temptation for those who have been hardened in sin. As a result, they are left without any shock to wake them up to the realities of which they have become oblivious to. They continue in their sinning ways until they reach their most evil destination.’ (‘In the Shade of the Qur’an: Volume 3’; my emphasis).

These ʾĀyāt have their counterpart in Ezekiel; and in 2 Thessalonians:

In Ezekiel 14: 9-11 (KJV), we have (my emphasis):

‘And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.’

Albert Barnes – the American theologian and clergyman – writes:

‘A deep truth lies beneath these words, namely, that evil as well as good is under God’s direction. He turns it as He will, employing it to test the sincerity of men, and thus making it ultimately contribute to the purification of His people, to the confirmation of the righteous, to the increase of their glory and felicity.’ (‘The Old Testament: Notes on The Whole Bible’).

John Wesley – the English cleric, theologian, and evangelist – writes that these verses refer to a ‘false prophet, who speaks all serene, and quiet, in the hope of reward.’ (‘Complete Bible Commentary’).

According to Wesley, the Beloved:

‘Permitted him (the false prophet) to err, or justly left him in his blindness.’ (Ibid.).

Compare Wesley’s comment with that of Sayyid 'Ibrāhīm Ḥusayn Quṭb:

‘He (the Beloved) simply allows them to travel along their erring way, without alerting them by a calamity that opens their eyes. He leaves them to go along until they fall into the abyss towards which they aim.’

In 2 Thessalonians 2:11 (KJV) we have (my emphasis):

‘And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.’

Barnes writes:

‘God shall send them strong delusion - Greek: “energy of deceit;” a Hebraism, meaning strong deceit, The agency of God is here distinctly recognised, in accordance with the uniform statements of the Scriptures, respecting evil; compare Exodus 7:13; Exodus 9:12; Exodus 10:1, Exodus 10:20, Exodus 10:27; Exodus 11:10; Exodus 14:8. Isaiah 45:7.

‘(….) It is not necessary here to suppose that there was any positive influence on the part of God in causing this delusion to come upon them, but all the force of the language will be met, as well as the reasoning of the apostle, by supposing that God withdrew all restraint, and suffered men simply to show that they did not love the truth.

‘God often places people in circumstances to develop their own nature, and it cannot be shown to be wrong that He should do so. If people have no love of the truth, and no desire to be saved, it is not improper that they should be allowed to manifest this.

‘(….) This does not affirm that God wished them to believe a lie; nor that He would not have preferred that they should believe the truth; nor that He exerted any direct agency to cause them to believe a lie. It means merely that He left them, because they did not love the truth, to believe what was false, and what would end in their destruction. Can anyone doubt that this constantly occurs in the world?’ (‘The New Testament: Notes on The Whole Bible’; my emphases).

Of the words ‘And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion’ John Wesley writes:

‘That is, judicially permit to come upon them, strong delusions.’ (‘Complete Bible Commentary’).

Other Biblical verses that speak of the Beloved as a deceiver:

‘Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.’ (‘Jeremiah 4:10’; KJV; my emphasis).

Barnes writes:

‘These words are generally referred to the false prophets; they rather refer to real prophecies of future blessedness promised to the Jews. Jeremiah could not reconcile the doom he was now commanded to pronounce, either with his previous prophecy, or with what he read in the writings of his predecessors. Time only could solve the difficulty. The sword has reached the life i.e., has inflicted a mortal wound.’ (‘The Old Testament: Notes on The Whole Bible’).

And this:

O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.’ (‘Jeremiah 20:7’: KJV; my emphasis).

John Wesley writes:

‘Jeremiah at first excused himself to God, chap. 1:6, but the Lord prevailed against him replying, verse 1:7, Say not, I am a child, for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak, verse 1:9. This is all that is here meant, namely, God's over-ruling him contrary to his own inclinations.’ (‘Complete Bible Commentary’; my emphasis).

In both the Bible and Qur’an, the Beloved permits people to continue in their sinful behaviour, to their ultimate destruction.

In the words of Albert Barnes: ‘It cannot be shown to be wrong that He should do so.’

Continued:
 
Back
Top