Vic C. said:
Ben, Ben... you have said you don't believe in Wrath, but you show us, per Zechariah 13:8-9, how God will bring His Chosen through His Wrath. (remember now, this is OT stuff; the ekklesia isn't even suggested in this passage - we are included here though; 1 Thessalonians 5:9)
I do agree that nowhere can it be found, where God promises us exemtpion from trials and tribulation of any kind or magnitude. Are we somehow more favorful in God's eyes than all those Christians who have been persecuted in the past?
Maybe one day we (as in whoever) can do a study from the OT on the Day of the Lord. 8-)
No need to explain why you don't believe in Wrath, since that will spark a debate which is not allowed here at this time.
Peace.
Vic,
I don't think I ever said I didn't believe in wrath. What I don't agree with is the negative connotation people place on that word. And that has nothing to do with Universalism, if that was what was not allowed.
Take a look another look at Zechariah 13. It doesn't mention wrath. It mentions a fountain being opened up for the cleansing of sin and impurity. That fountain will cleanse the land from idols and false prophets. The context here isn't that of a pouring out of His wrath, but an outpouring of His Holy Spirit. It isn't describing judgment, but mercy.
Indeed, we aren't exempt. And no we aren't favored any more highly than anyone from the past.
But in regards to Zechariah 13:8-9 where it says:
And I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried. They shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people; and they shall say, Jehovah is my God.
What do you think the Holy Spirit is all about? Did not John the Baptist say of Jesus:
I indeed baptize you in water... but he that cometh after me ... shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire
That fire wasn't supposed to just make a person feel all giggly and act foolish in the name of Jesus. It can do that at times, but that most certainly isn't what the fire is for. Fire is for cleansing and purification, consecration. It is the agent responsible for the process whereby a carnal, selfish, evil creature such as what we were when we came to Jesus is transformed into the image of Christ. And that is what were apprehended for when He dragged us into His Kingdom. It was so that we may bear His likeness, and reflect His image. But that transformation doesn't happen instantly, or painlessly. And we can't be trusted to take ourselves through the process on our own. So He baptizes us with fire that our old natures are purified, refined, and finally tried. In the end, if all goes well, we "shall not be hurt at all of the second death."
And the only reason we don't face the persecution the early church did is that we do not have signs following our word. They had such a miraculous confirmation of their word, that they came to be perceived as a threat to the security of the Roman Empire. They may well have been.
But we aren't a threat to anyone, for any reason. Noone worries about who we are or what we say. But that my friend is soon to change.
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: I prefer the edited version and would ask that we continue to approach each other without all the extra colorful figures of speech. 8-)