If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[Eugene]

Well, call does not mean believe but it certainly implies belief.
If you proceed to run over people, why couldn't God take that Lamborghini away from you and throw you in with the hypocrites? Mathew 24:48-51

Is the unfaithful servant’s loss of reward mean that they lose their salvation and are no longer a son?
I reckon we could have seen the prodigal son in that light, but for grace.

Will the unfaithful servant rule as the faithful?

Certain of the ten virgins were not ready with the oil. Off to hell?

Will all the Church be the bride of Christ?

Rev 19:7 . . . the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. How?

Thanks.

 

[MarkT]

Is the unfaithful servant’s loss of reward mean that they lose their salvation and are no longer a son?
I reckon we could have seen the prodigal son in that light, but for grace.

Will the unfaithful servant rule as the faithful?

Certain of the ten virgins were not ready with the oil. Off to hell?

Will all the Church be the bride of Christ?

Rev 19:7 . . . the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. How?

Thanks.

We wait for the LORD's salvation.

I guess it depends on what you mean by salvation. Do you mean saved from the wrath of God?

The wicked servant will not escape the wrath of God. Jesus said he will be put with the hypocrites; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. Mt. 24:51

Of course the wicked will not rule.

Re. the ten maidens, I can't say they will be cast out, rather the foolish will be left out when the door shuts. Such is the kingdom of heaven. Apparently there is an outer darkness Jesus spoke of Mt. 8:12, Mt. 22:13, Mt. 25:30, so they will be left out in the outer darkness.

I believe God saves, so whoever he saves will be saved. If God is in us he will uphold us and he will never let us fall. Ps. 3:17, Ps. 51:12, Ps. 54:4, Ps. 63:8, Ps. 119:11, Ps. 195:14.

Isaiah 41:10
fear not, for I am with you, be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my victorious right hand.

Made herself ready by keeping his commandments. Pr. 2:1-15, Pr. 7:1-2

 

[Eugene]

We wait for the LORD's salvation.
I guess it depends on what you mean by salvation. Do you mean saved from the wrath of God?

Dear Brother MarkT, I just posted an excerpt titled "Salvation - Four Aspects" of a pamphlet I wrote so as to have the URL link below for such questions as yours. I hope it explains my position, and I certainly am willing to hear opposition to it. Thanks.
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/salvation-four-aspects.61450/

 

[MarkT]

Ephesians 2:8, 9. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Now, if salvation is a gift, we can't do anything to earn it, but you read in (Philippians 2:12) that you must work out your own salvation with all fear and trembling. If God has provided this salvation as a free gift, how am I to add anything to that? There are many different ways that the word salvation is used in the Bible, such as safety from enemies, but I will limit this thread's teaching to four aspects concerning salvation of the soul.

First - It is provisional. If you accept Jesus as your savior, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9-10) "If you say with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved, (10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Second - When you become saved, it is at this time that you are born again and have overcome the penalty of sin, or become saved from the great white throne judgment and the resulting lake of fire. (Repeating John 5:24), "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." In (Romans 8:1) "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus."

Third - The working out your own salvation referred to in (Philippians 2:12) is learning to overcome the habit of sin in our lives. This is the experiencing part of our salvation and is another step in our growth as a Christian. (2 Peter 1:5-7) tells us to "Add to your faith virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness and charity." To realize this growth in our lives, we must learn to begin counting our old man dead. (Romans 6:6) "Knowing this, that our old man (The Adamic nature) is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” (Ephesians 4:22) “That ye put off concerning the former conversation (Manner of life) the old man who is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;” (Colossians 3:9) “Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds." We all have an old man we should count as dead that still wants to rule our lives. Even though the Apostle Paul knew he was saved, he experienced all kinds of problems with the old man trying to control his life. (Romans 7:14-25) states that (15) he ends up doing that which he hates. In (16,17), Paul realizes that if he agrees that the law is good, then it is no more him that was responsible, but sin that was in him. In looking for an answer he says (24) "Who shall deliver me?" (25) "I thank God through Jesus Christ"

(Romans 8:1). "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus." And in (Romans 8:4) it says that "The righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (Not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Fourth - We will be saved from this corrupt world. In (Romans 8:18-23), Paul states (18) "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (21) Because the creature (Creation) itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." John states in (1 John 3:2) "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

I did not mean to say there is more than one meaning - saved from the wrath of God implies judgment and eternal destruction. So here is where I disagree - there is no picking or choosing. We have been warned. 'Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; as destruction from the Almighty it will come! Isa. 13:6 and Isa. 13:9 We have been shown the way of salvation through Jesus Christ and we have preached the gospel of the kingdom so no man has an excuse.

It's not if we accept him. The gospel falls on the heart as rain falls on the land. The land then brings forth vegetation; it may bring forth grain Mt. 13:8, but in some cases the land brings forth thistles and thorns. Heb. 6:7-9

So there is no exertion on our part. We only believe because when God made us he gave us a believing heart and a spirit of understanding. Job 32:8

At the close of the age the weeds will be pulled out and gathered into bundles to be burned. Mt. 13:40 The wheat will be gathered into his barn. Mt. 3:12

I agree with your understanding for the most part.

Some say they can accept or reject eternal life. That's not how it works. Atheists reject -they do not believe. XChristians reject - they do not believe. You can not reject and believe at the same time. You are either one or the other. If you believe, you can not reject. If you reject, you can not believe. Nevertheless, it's not a choice. You are born that way. The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. Pr. 16:4

Some say eternal life is a gift. Well, it's a gift as opposed to a wage, for the LORD said to the people of Israel, if they kept his law and they did everything the law required, they would be his people. Ex. 19:5 and he would sanctify them. Ex. 31:13 But the new covenant is through faith in Jesus Christ. By his sacrifice (he fulfilled the law), we are his people. Some will say then work is not required, but, as James said, 'faith apart from works is dead' and works complete faith. James 2:26 and James 2:22 So we are no longer talking about fulfilling the law. He fulfilled the law. But now we are talking about peace and mercy and forgiving others and not passing judgment on one another and being approved by God. 1 Thess. 2:4 Still some will say it is work. Yes. But it is not the work of the law but the work of God in Christ in whom we exist. It is because he lives forever that we live forever. Therefore abide in him and keep his commandments.

 

[reba]

If i give or receive a gift and it gets thrown in the trash, off to the dump, does the receiver still have it?

 

[MarkT]

If i give or receive a gift and it gets thrown in the trash, off to the dump, does the receiver still have it?

No.

Was it received by faith? Who threw it out?

 

[Eugene]

James said, 'faith apart from works is dead' and works complete faith. James 2:26 and James 2:22 So we are no longer talking about fulfilling the law. He fulfilled the law.

I think I see what you're attempting to say, and James was speaking of our testimony before man; in other words, we are not saved by grace in one place, and works in another scripture before God.
When you say Jesus fulfilled the law, yes He did, but God also says that He fulfills the law in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit in Rom 8:4.

 

[JLB]

Dear brother, I personally am convinced that if we have eternal life it's permanent, and not such as those who partook of the Holy Spirit in hearing the word, seeing the miracles, and then returning to their previous lives without ever believing on Jesus.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
If they didn't believe on Jesus with all the Holy Spirit presented, there was no other remission for the sin they possessed.

Do you believe it is possible for a Christian to take the mark of the beast?

JLB

 

[JLB]

No.

Was it received by faith? Who threw it out?

Is there any condition by which the gift that is promised, is to be received.

JLB

 

[Eugene]

Do you believe it is possible for a Christian to take the mark of the beast?

JLB

No! All present believers should have been caught up prior to the man of sin being revealed. During the second half of the tribulation the elect will not be deceived.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

[JLB]

No! All present believers should have been caught up prior to the man of sin being revealed. During the second half of the tribulation the elect will not be deceived.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Paul teaches us that the coming of the Lord and the gathering of the saints will occur after the man of sin is revealed.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

The Day of Christ, when He comes to gather His people at the Resurrection/Rapture, comes AFTER the man of sin is revealed.

The man of sin may in fact be alive on the earth today, but is yet to be revealed, as he will be revealed "in his own time".

That specific time for him to be revealed to the word is after the Temple is rebuilt, for this is the place where he will be revealed.


and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Finally, it it the Coming of the Lord Himself that destroys this man of sin.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8

Three things will be present together at the same time on earth... The Lord, The Temple, the man of sin.


JLB

 

[MarkT]

Is there any condition by which the gift that is promised, is to be received.

JLB

It is received by faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

There's a number of ways you can answer that question. You have to believe in him. You have to keep his commandments. You have to be born again. You have to be forgiven. You have to confess your sins. Repent. Be baptized. Be humble. Love God. Continue in the fear of God all day. Pray. Do good. Read the Bible. Store up his words. Grow in the knowledge of God. Trust God.

 

[reba]

No.

Was it received by faith? Who threw it out?

Daddy is going to give me a car you will see... WOW DADDY IS GIVING ME A CAR wow i have a car... i love daddy so such do you see what daddy did.. Daddy is so good ... i will wash it everyday it will shine were ever i take it. i read the owners manual.. will be checking the oil on and on... Dad some one hit my car in the parking lot.. please help .. that kinda took some of the glow off the car i will get her washed next week.. I thought you checked the oil when i asked for your help...ok ok back on track.. she is waxed and looking good again... daddy that guy you warned me about he took my car... i know i should have listened to you he wrecked her they tell me totaled.. My car is gone to the scrap heap...
does she still have the car? the car was still given but does she have it...

Not taking sides in this long on going argument ... reading these threads for a few years now i will say i am leaning to the side of we can give away our gift... once again i believe it is much harder then the Pentecostalism teaching i was brought up under... Our Lord is longsuffering to us...

 

[Eugene]

Paul teaches us that the coming of the Lord and the gathering of the saints will occur after the man of sin is revealed.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

The Day of Christ, when He comes to gather His people at the Resurrection/Rapture, comes AFTER the man of sin is revealed.

The man of sin may in fact be alive on the earth today, but is yet to be revealed, as he will be revealed "in his own time".

That specific time for him to be revealed to the word is after the Temple is rebuilt, for this is the place where he will be revealed.


and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Finally, it it the Coming of the Lord Himself that destroys this man of sin.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8

Three things will be present together at the same time on earth... The Lord, The Temple, the man of sin.

JLB

Do you think the apostles Jesus was speaking to are gathered together with Jesus at this time? Are those of Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6 present in heaven with Jesus prior to the tribulation even beginning? How’d they get there?

I agree with your thought “The man of sin may in fact be alive on the earth today, but is yet to be revealed, as he will be revealed "in his own time."

You’re using scripture of a particular time, and would you have any idea what is being said in 2 Th 2:7? For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (or hinders) will let, until he be taken out of the way.

 

[MarkT]

I think I see what you're attempting to say, and James was speaking of our testimony before man; in other words, we are not saved by grace in one place, and works in another scripture before God.
When you say Jesus fulfilled the law, yes He did, but God also says that He fulfills the law in us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit in Rom 8:4.

You have faith, you keep his commandments. Keeping his commandments completes your faith.

Rom. 8:4 Jesus died for us so that the just requirements of the law might be fulfilled in us. In other words he died for our sins.

 

[Eugene]

You have faith, you keep his commandments. Keeping his commandments completes your faith

I'm not sure I would word it that way, because every part of our salvation is provided by God. We are His workmanship (Eph 2:10) as He works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure (Php 2:13). Even the measure of faith was given to each of us according to Rom 12:3, and we are not to think more highly of ourselves than we ought to think, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. It is fortunate our Father only sees the finished work of Christ when He looks on us in our new natures. Sometimes our old natures sure attempt to get in the way of a dedicated spiritual walk, but Paul said it this way in Rom 8:1 NASV. "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

 

[FreeGrace]

If i give or receive a gift and it gets thrown in the trash, off to the dump, does the receiver still have it?

No. But how would that relate to the gift of eternal life? Can one show from Scripture that eternal life can be discarded in any way?

 

[FreeGrace]

Daddy is going to give me a car you will see... WOW DADDY IS GIVING ME A CAR wow i have a car... i love daddy so such do you see what daddy did.. Daddy is so good ... i will wash it everyday it will shine were ever i take it. i read the owners manual.. will be checking the oil on and on... Dad some one hit my car in the parking lot.. please help .. that kinda took some of the glow off the car i will get her washed next week.. I thought you checked the oil when i asked for your help...ok ok back on track.. she is waxed and looking good again... daddy that guy you warned me about he took my car... i know i should have listened to you he wrecked her they tell me totaled.. My car is gone to the scrap heap...
does she still have the car? the car was still given but does she have it...

Not taking sides in this long on going argument ... reading these threads for a few years now i will say i am leaning to the side of we can give away our gift…

The example above does not relate to the gift of eternal life and how one would discard eternal life. Is there anything from Scripture that either plainly states that either God may take the gift away, or that one is even able to discard the gift?

If there isn't anything from Scripture, why would one be leaning toward a view that cannot be supported from Scripture?

once again i believe it is much harder then the Pentecostalism teaching i was brought up under... Our Lord is longsuffering to us...

Amen!!

 

[smaller]

If we read attentively, Jesus does toss us some theological bombs.

Here is one of them. This, Jesus Himself, has commanded his servants to say:

Luke 17:10
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Now, what happens to "unprofitable servants?"

Matthew 25:30
And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I'd hope one or two of you might see the dilemma here.

I might apply the same theological bomb construct here, because, yes, it is identical:

Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 13:27
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

For at least a decade or more, I read those Words of God in Christ and rejected them from being applicable to me, because I am a believer. But, on a certain day, I recognized that I was still a sinner, and therefore I worked iniquity.

I was not hearing.

Who is the person who fears to Hear the Words of our own Master?

Jesus quenched my fear to hear. I now accept both dictates, above, on the basis of HIS LIFE.

Luke 4:4, Matt. 4:4. I will LIVE by every Word of God, yes, even the bad ones. The ones I did not hear, before.

 

[reba]

No. But how would that relate to the gift of eternal life? Can one show from Scripture that eternal life can be discarded in any way?

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
is it possible to for a person to stop believing?

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance