If I ask someone for a gift, did I earn it, or work for it when I got it handed to me?

[Eugene]

Please acknowledge that you understand that the Ressurrection and Rapture happen at the same time, and are not separated by time, at His Coming.

Sorry, I cannot do that. To me you are saying all the Church, and all Israel beheaded will be resurrected at the same time, and that absolutely is not the according to John's description in Revelation. For instance some are worshiping Jesus in heaven (Rev 4:4) prior to the 144,000 even being sealed in Rev 7:4.
These are ones of Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. These too will be part of the first resurrection, but we don't see them in heaven until Re 14:1.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished (to face judgment at the great white throne.). This is the first resurrection. I'll leave off here lest it becomes too complex for the moment.

 

[FreeGrace]

i do see what your saying as jumping through hoops.. the Scripture says this :

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance

Your explanation tells me those Scriptures were not written for today.. I disagree.

They were written specifically for certain Jewish Christians who had returned to the Mosaic Law system of sacrifice. My explanation is historically correct. And the passage still does not that they lost their salvation. It is referring to the fact that as long as those specific Jewish Christians stay with animal sacrifice, they will not repent.

 

[smaller]

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance

Your explanation tells me those Scriptures were not written for today.. I disagree.

The scripture remains valid. It does however depend on the person reading same as to who they think they are seeing in the bold, above. The writer is clearly referencing briers and thorns, which are allegorical in the text to Satan and his messengers.

When people are saved, they are turned from Satan's blinding power over their minds. But that does not mean the contrary static that exists between Gods Words and those parties departs the flesh of anyone. And this, the writer goes on to reference:

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

The earth reference is our body, our flesh. The rain is Gods Word. We know from scripture that were the Word is sown, the adversary is aroused to resist, in the flesh, first by adverse thoughts, then sin words, then sin deeds. And this principle is exactly what the writer of Hebrews is referring to. It will remain rather pointless in christian theology to view any of the matters of scripture as "mancentric" or to man alone. That is never the case.

Any person can receive the gift of salvation by faith. All such will continue to have to deal with the adversity and contrariness of the flesh, which remains subject to temptations of the tempter and/or his minions. Is any believer therefore just themselves, alone, in these matters? Uh, no. We are saved. We can not be lost. But the flesh upon which comes the Word of God can be over run by thorns and briers because they always resist the Word, if we are not diligent to resist their operations in the flesh.

And the adversarial parties in the flesh are what the writer of Hebrews is referring to in Hebrews 6. God's children are not thorns and briers. Satan and devils are thorns and briers.

How do we know that Satan and devils are thorns and briers. One reference is in 2 Cor. 12:7, showing that Paul had such an adversary in his own flesh, deemed a thorn, a messenger of Satan.

There are many other references that make this link. Adam for example, was advised that when working the ground, it would bring forth thorns and thistles in Gen. 3. That is a picture, not of an external/physical farmer, but of a slave of the tempter. Here are some other of the more obvious ones:

2 Samuel 23:6
But the sons of Belial shall be all of them as thorns thrust away, because they cannot be taken with hands:

Song of Solomon 2:2
As the lily among thorns, so is my love among the daughters.

Isaiah 27
1 In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.
2 In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.
3 I the Lord do keep it; I will water it every moment: lest any hurt it, I will keep it night and day.
4 Fury is not in me: who would set the briers and thorns against me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together.

 

[JLB]

Sorry, I cannot do that. To me you are saying all the Church, and all Israel beheaded will be resurrected at the same time, and that absolutely is not the according to John's description in Revelation.

I'm saying what the plain words of Scripture say.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:17

There is no separation of time between the Resurrection and Rapture, as they will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.

The Resurrected ones together with the Raptured ones in the air, at His Coming.

One Event.

The dead in Christ together with the Raptured in Christ in the air.

Where is the time separation from in verse 17?

 

[Eugene]

I'm saying what the plain words of Scripture say.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:17

There is no separation of time between the Resurrection and Rapture, as they will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.

The Resurrected ones together with the Raptured ones in the air, at His Coming.

One Event.

The dead in Christ together with the Raptured in Christ in the air.

Where is the time separation from in verse 17?

I have no idea yet as to your thoughts of Jesus' judgment of the Church pronounced according to Revelation chapters two & three, but to me John describes definite separations in the body of Christ as to their being caught up. Again, until you can show why the twenty-four elders (Rev 4:4), and the four beasts (Rev 4:6) are in heaven with Jesus prior to the 144,000 even being sealed I can see no validity to your reckoning.

1 Thes 4:16-17 simply shows the manner, or order of the being caught up into the air to meet our Lord; the dead first and then we which remain alive will be caught up together. The first occurrence shown is those of Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6. Do you agree with that?

The second group reaching heaven is the great multitude of Rev 7:9; it will also consist of the dead in its ranks rising first, and then those alive being caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air.

The third rank to reach heaven are the 144,000 we see in Rev 14:1. They too will consist of the dead in Christ first, and the m remaining alive. Notice something here; they appear before some that have preceded them arriving there; the four beasts & the elders. (Rev 14:4).

Again I would appreciate you telling me who it is that letteth (hinders) of 2 Thes 2:7-8 that is to be taken out of the way prior to man of sin being revealed.
2 Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2 Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked (The man of sin) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

[JLB]

I have no idea yet as to your thoughts of Jesus' judgment of the Church pronounced according to Revelation chapters two & three, but to me John describes definite separations in the body of Christ as to their being caught up. Again, until you can show why the twenty-four elders (Rev 4:4), and the four beasts (Rev 4:6) are in heaven with Jesus prior to the 144,000 even being sealed I can see no validity to your reckoning.

Brother, why would you try to obscure the plain straightforward teaching of Jesus and Paul, about the resurrection at Christ's Coming?

There is nothing whatsoever in the book of Revelation that can contradict what Paul wrote to us about the timing of the Resurrection.

It is at His Coming, (Parousia).

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive andremain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.


The Resurrection/Rapture is at the Coming of the Lord.

...who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.


22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:22-23

Those who are Christ's....will be Resurrected/Raptured at His Coming.

That leaves no room for speculation, or misinterpretation of vague or symbolic scriptures in the Old Testament or the book of Revelation.

Those who are Christ's at His Coming.

Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:26-27

All His people on earth and in heaven will be gathered unto Him, at His Coming...

At the Resurrection/Rapture, His people will be gathered unto Him, to be with Him as He rules the earth from Jerusalem.

Anyone that is in heaven now, has died and gone to heaven, and are awaiting the resurrection whereby they will be further clothed with an immortal body.

JLB

 

[Eugene]

Brother, why would you try to obscure the plain straightforward teaching of Jesus and Paul, about the resurrection at Christ's Coming?

There is nothing whatsoever in the book of Revelation that can contradict what Paul wrote to us about the timing of the Resurrection.

It is at His Coming, (Parousia).

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive andremain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.


The Resurrection/Rapture is at the Coming of the Lord.

...who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.


22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:22-23

Those who are Christ's....will be Resurrected/Raptured at His Coming.

That leaves no room for speculation, or misinterpretation of vague or symbolic scriptures in the Old Testament or the book of Revelation.

Those who are Christ's at His Coming.

Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:26-27

All His people on earth and in heaven will be gathered unto Him, at His Coming...

At the Resurrection/Rapture, His people will be gathered unto Him, to be with Him as He rules the earth from Jerusalem.

Anyone that is in heaven now, has died and gone to heaven, and are awaiting the resurrection whereby they will be further clothed with an immortal body.

JLB

Thanks.

 

[MarkT]

We just ask for his free gift of salvation and receive it. Who here thinks if you ask someone to give you their brand new Lamborghini as a gift is working for it? Who here thinks the person asking for a Lamborghini as a gift worked for it and earned it when he received the lamborghini for free, to keep forever! Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. For whosoever shall call upon THE NAME OF THE LORD shall be saved” (Romans 10:13) Call here is the word meaning believe. Feel free to explain why you feel you earned, or worked so hard for that brand spanking new lamborghini after you asked for it, and was freely given to you!

1. The law was not abolished.

2. Note, the royal law is the law of Moses minus the works of the law of Moses. ie. circumcision, animal sacrifices, etc.

3.Paul is specifically referring to those works and the wages owed to those who do those works vs. justification through faith in Jesus for all who believe. Ro. 3:26 Ro. 3:21-22

Note, Paul refers to the free gift of righteousness Ro. 5:17, salvation Eph. 2:8-9, reconciliation Ro. 5:11, sanctification Ro. 6:22 and eternal life.

In effect, Jesus Christ is God's gift to us. John 4:10

 

[dianegcook]

I have no idea yet as to your thoughts of Jesus' judgment of the Church pronounced according to Revelation chapters two & three, but to me John describes definite separations in the body of Christ as to their being caught up. Again, until you can show why the twenty-four elders (Rev 4:4), and the four beasts (Rev 4:6) are in heaven with Jesus prior to the 144,000 even being sealed I can see no validity to your reckoning.

1 Thes 4:16-17 simply shows the manner, or order of the being caught up into the air to meet our Lord; the dead first and then we which remain alive will be caught up together. The first occurrence shown is those of Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6. Do you agree with that?

The second group reaching heaven is the great multitude of Rev 7:9; it will also consist of the dead in its ranks rising first, and then those alive being caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air.

The third rank to reach heaven are the 144,000 we see in Rev 14:1. They too will consist of the dead in Christ first, and the m remaining alive. Notice something here; they appear before some that have preceded them arriving there; the four beasts & the elders. (Rev 14:4).

Again I would appreciate you telling me who it is that letteth (hinders) of 2 Thes 2:7-8 that is to be taken out of the way prior to man of sin being revealed.
2 Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2 Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked (The man of sin) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Eugene
You may not agree with my answer, on whom letteth
But here it is.
The subject is talking about Satan sitting in the temple of God, claiming to be God.
Michael the archangel kicks Satan out of heaven, defacto.
Rev.12:7-12
He is the one that letteth until God destroys him with the brightness of His coming or as stated "taken away", kicks him out of heaven.
In Rev.1:10, it states that John was in the spirit on the Lord's day, this is not the Sabbath, but the day of the Lord.
Every eye shall see Him, so whom will Satan deceive?
The book of Rev. Is not chronically in order.
Take Rev.12:5
This mother Israel had a man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron and her child was caught up unto God and His throne. This was Jesus born and crucified, so according to your theory, you have the so called rapture before Christ was born.
Prior to the Lord's day is what John had written what he saw, the seals, trumps and so forth.
The seals, trumps and vials are not in chronically in order.
The seals is the knowledge of the trumps being sealed in the foreheads, mind, the vials is the wrath being poured out.

And also you can see in Rev.11:15, you see Jesus coming back, after the 2 witnesses are killed, the kingdoms have become Christs'.
And you have in verse 18 of chapter 11, He rewards the saints and the prophets, so how could that be, if they are already rewarded, before the tribulation?

Everyone shall change at the last trump, good, bad and ugly.
Because when He comes,
2Peter 3:10, the day of the Lord, the heavens will pass away with a great noise, the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and The WORKS that are therein shall be burned up.
No flesh, sorry...
No flesh during the millennium, the lion will lay with the lamb, no carnivores.

My beliefs......

 

[JLB]

The law was not abolished.

The law of commandments, contained in ordinances was abolished in His flesh.

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ephesians 2:14-16


The restrictions against Gentiles being a part of the Commonwealth Of Israel, ie the law of commandments contained in ordinances, has been removed.

In other words, what was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, has been removed, which is the law of Moses.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;
Galatians 3:19

The law of Moses has been made obsolete by God Himself, as it has been nailed to the cross...

having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14

This is essentially what was said in the letter to the Ephesians... the law of commandments contained in ordinances,

The law of Moses has vanished away. Hebrews 8:13


The Royal Law is the law of Love, which is the law of Christ, the Lord.

Christ is the Mediator of the New Covenant.


JLB

 

[Eugene]

Eugene
You may not agree with my answer, on whom letteth
But here it is.

Eugene - Sister dianegcook, I am impressed with the thought put into your reply; you have done some reading of the word.
I do have different thoughts in some things I hope I can explain, but I so appreciate your reply.

Firstly I will quote 2 Thes 2:9 Even him (the man of sin), whose coming is after the working of Satan (He is not Satan) with all power and signs and lying wonders. To me this man of sin will not be revealed until he who letteth (hinders) is safe.
Some think the “he” here is the Holy Spirit, but no, none else would be saved from that point on.

Dianegcook - The subject is talking about Satan sitting in the temple of God, claiming to be God.

Eugene - Again I believe the context of 2 Thes 2:4 to be pertaining to the man of sin we read of in 2 Thes 2:9.

Dianegcook – 2 Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Eugene - This too cannot be Satan because of Satan not being destroyed here. He is locked away for a thousand years beginning with the millennium.
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

But just who is it that is destroyed with the brightness of Jesus’ coming of 2 Th 2:8?
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Dianegcook - In Rev.1:10, it states that John was in the spirit on the Lord's day, this is not the Sabbath, but the day of the Lord.

Eugene - Amen, and I will add at this point that John was given three viewpoints from that point in time future.
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. (I intend to show that things after Rev 4:1, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter do not reach back to Jesus’ birth).

Dianegcook - Every eye shall see Him, so whom will Satan deceive?
The book of Rev. Is not chronologically in order. Take Rev.12:5 This mother Israel had a man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron and her child was caught up unto God and His throne. This was Jesus born and crucified, so according to your theory, you have the so called rapture before Christ was born.

Eugene - So Called rapture? Just kidding, but now you’ll see my reasoning why I quoted Rev 4:1 which must be hereafter of the Lord’s Day showing this portion of scripture of Rev 12:5 to be yet future, and yet Rev 12:5 must refer to someone caught up to heaven. Can you show me scripture showing that Mary was caught away for three and one-half years at the birth of Jesus? Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. To me this area of scripture is in context of the coming tribulation. This is another mystery to many I will go into later if you wish to showing this man child to be the 144,000 of Rev 14:1.

Dianegcook - you can see in Rev.11:15, you see Jesus coming back, after the 2 witnesses are killed, the kingdoms have become Christs'.
And you have in verse 18 of chapter 11 (Rev 11:18), He rewards the saints and the prophets, so how could that be, if they are already rewarded, before the tribulation?

Eugene - The only reward I see the twenty-four elders and the four beasts to have offered prior to being caught up is that they are kept from the temptation to come upon all the world according to Rev 3:10, and that they are indeed in heaven (Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6) with Jesus as he receives His own throne in Rev 4:2. Do notice that this is the time which is to come (Rev 4:1) after this present age from the perspective of the Lord’s Day, and yet prophesies of the tribulation of Revelation chapter six have yet to begin.

Dianegcook - Everyone shall change at the last trump, good, bad and ugly.
Because when He comes,
2 Peter 3:10, the day of the Lord, the heavens will pass away with a great noise, the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and The WORKS that are therein shall be burned up.
No flesh, sorry...
No flesh during the millennium, the lion will lay with the lamb, no carnivores.
My beliefs......

Eugene - Thank you again Diane for the well thought out reply. This last trump is to be at the very last thing we will experience of this present world as we read that it is even after our last enemy Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? WHEW!

 

[dianegcook]

Eugene - Sister dianegcook, I am impressed with the thought put into your reply; you have done some reading of the word.
I do have different thoughts in some things I hope I can explain, but I so appreciate your reply.

Eugene

Firstly I will quote 2 Thes 2:9 Even him (the man of sin), whose coming is after the working of Satan (He is not Satan) with all power and signs and lying wonders. To me this man of sin will not be revealed until he who letteth (hinders) is safe.
Some think the “he” here is the Holy Spirit, but no, none else would be saved from that point on.
Diane
Verse 8, it states whom the Lord, shall destroy, with the brightness of His coming, coma
9.Even Him, whose coming is after the working of Satan, the even Him, is referring to the Lord.

As in Mark 13:24
But in those days, after the tribulation...
Verse 27, then gather the elect from heaven and earth.
Matt.24:29
Immediately after the tribulation...
Verse 31, gather the elect....
Rev.12:12
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth, the devil is come down, persecute the saints, (verse 17) he has a short time, 3 1/2 years. The time shorten....
The tribulation....


Eugene - Again I believe the context of 2 Thes 2:4 to be pertaining to the man of sin we read of in 2 Thes 2:9.

Dianegcook – 2 Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Eugene - This too cannot be Satan because of Satan not being destroyed here. He is locked away for a thousand years beginning with the millennium.
Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

But just who is it that is destroyed with the brightness of Jesus’ coming of 2 Th 2:8?
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Diane
His role as the so called antchrist, will be destroyed.
Then after the 1000 year reign, will destroy Satan in the lake of fire.

Eugene - Amen, and I will add at this point that John was given three viewpoints from that point in time future.
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter. (I intend to show that things after Rev 4:1, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter do not reach back to Jesus’ birth).
Diane
Exactly
He was to write, what he saw on the Lord's day, what he saw then, and prior to the Lord's day.
If it is after the Lord's day, the millennium would had already started, right?



Dianegcook - Every eye shall see Him, so whom will Satan deceive?
The book of Rev. Is not chronologically in order. Take Rev.12:5 This mother Israel had a man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron and her child was caught up unto God and His throne. This was Jesus born and crucified, so according to your theory, you have the so called rapture before Christ was born.

Eugene - So Called rapture? Just kidding, but now you’ll see my reasoning why I quoted Rev 4:1 which must be hereafter of the Lord’s Day showing this portion of scripture of Rev 12:5 to be yet future, and yet Rev 12:5 must refer to someone caught up to heaven. Can you show me scripture showing that Mary was caught away for three and one-half years at the birth of Jesus? Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. To me this area of scripture is in context of the coming tribulation. This is another mystery to many I will go into later if you wish to showing this man child to be the 144,000 of Rev 14:1.
/
Diane
Whom was to rule with a rod of iron, Christ. Right?
I believe chapter 12 goes thru eons of time.
We have a woman clothed with the sun and moon under her feet, a crown of 12 stars,
This is Mother Israel, 12 tribes
Traveling in birth, and pain to be delivered.
The birth of a new age, flesh.
This refers to Isaiah 66:7,8
Before she travailed, she brought forth, before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
Who hath heard such a thing? Who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? Or should a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion travailed she brought forth her children.
Satan from the beginning wanted to destroy the Christ seed, from Eve.
The first prophecy,
Gen.3:15,16
Will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed.
It shall bruise they head, Satan, and thou shalt bruise His heel, Jesus on the cross.
Through Eve, from generations and generations, her seed, produced Christ by Mary.
Thus, Jesus now is sitting on the right hand of God. Caught up.
Back to Rev.12:4
The Dragon, drew the third of the stars of heaven and cast them to earth, wanting to devour the child as soon as it was born.
This is Satan's rebellion, the third of God's children followed Satan.
Remember he use to guard the mercy seat.
Then future, cast out to persecute the woman for 3 1/2 years. Remnant of her seed, the saints.Rev.12:14-17.



Dianegcook - you can see in Rev.11:15, you see Jesus coming back, after the 2 witnesses are killed, the kingdoms have become Christs'.
And you have in verse 18 of chapter 11 (Rev 11:18), He rewards the saints and the prophets, so how could that be, if they are already rewarded, before the tribulation?

Eugene - The only reward I see the twenty-four elders and the four beasts to have offered prior to being caught up is that they are kept from the temptation to come upon all the world according to Rev 3:10, and that they are indeed in heaven (Rev 4:4 & Rev 4:6) with Jesus as he receives His own throne in Rev 4:2. Do notice that this is the time which is to come (Rev 4:1) after this present age from the perspective of the Lord’s Day, and yet prophesies of the tribulation of Revelation chapter six have yet to begin.
Diane
24 elders, 12 tribes, 12 Apostles.
Of course they are already there.
As stated before, John was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, taken to that time, the day of the Lord, the millennium, and I do hope you agree that the tribulation is before the millennium.

Dianegcook - Everyone shall change at the last trump, good, bad and ugly.
Because when He comes,
2 Peter 3:10, the day of the Lord, the heavens will pass away with a great noise, the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and The WORKS that are therein shall be burned up.
No flesh, sorry...
No flesh during the millennium, the lion will lay with the lamb, no carnivores.
My beliefs......

Eugene - Thank you again Diane for the well thought out reply. This last trump is to be at the very last thing we will experience of this present world as we read that it is even after our last enemy Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? WHEW!

Diane
Yes, there are 7 trumps, the last,
Rev.11:15
The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ.

Nice talking to ya.

​

 

[MarkT]

The law of commandments, contained in ordinances was abolished in His flesh.

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ephesians 2:14-16

The restrictions against Gentiles being a part of the Commonwealth Of Israel, ie the law of commandments contained in ordinances, has been removed.

In other words, what was added to the Abrahamic Covenant, has been removed, which is the law of Moses.

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;
Galatians 3:19

The law of Moses has been made obsolete by God Himself, as it has been nailed to the cross...

having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Colossians 2:14

This is essentially what was said in the letter to the Ephesians... the law of commandments contained in ordinances,

The law of Moses has vanished away. Hebrews 8:13


The Royal Law is the law of Love, which is the law of Christ, the Lord.

Christ is the Mediator of the New Covenant.


JLB

No. The old covenant was made obsolete. The law of sin and death has not vanished. People still die. People still sin. It's just that in Christ there is no sin. 1 John 3:5 In Christ the law of sin and death is abolished. But that doesn't mean the law is abolished outside Christ.

Jesus said, 'For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Mt. 5:18
All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. Ro. 2:12

Has killing and stealing and lying become lawful? No.

 

[Eugene]

.
Dear Sister dianegcook, due the extended length of our post, I will just reply to one or so aspects of our discussion per post. I will tag you (Your username shows in blue and issues an email notification)

Eugene - Firstly I will quote 2 Thes 2:9 Even him (the man of sin), whose coming is after the working of Satan (He is not Satan) with all power and signs and lying wonders. To me this man of sin will not be revealed until he who letteth (hinders) is safe.
Some think the “he” here is the Holy Spirit, but no, none else would be saved from that point on.

Diane - Verse 8, it states whom the Lord, shall destroy, with the brightness of His coming, coma
9.Even Him, whose coming is after the working of Satan, the even Him, is referring to the Lord.

Eugene - I’m not sure you’re aware that punctuation was not used in Greek at the time of Christ, and its use is at the thought of the interpreters. For instance note the way other bibles interpret 2 Thes 2:9 below. I use biblehub.com to find the different translations.
KJV - Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
NIV - The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie.
NLT - This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles.
ESV - The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders.
Berean - The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder,
NASV - that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
ISV - The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the power of Satan. He will use every kind of power, including miraculous signs, lying wonders,
God’s Word - The man of sin will come with the power of Satan. He will use every kind of power, including miraculous and wonderful signs. But they will be lies.

I hope this helps to see that the “HIM” used in the KJV is not referring to Jesus, but to the Man of Sin.

 

[Eugene]

.
Hi dianegcook, in order to show the order of events I’ll reverse the scriptures you quoted in their order, at least this seems to fit my thinking.

Dianegcook - Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. (Eugene - As you said: 3 ½ years.)

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days (3 ½ years) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Who are these elect in the tribulation? From your testimony here I think you realize that not only those believers finding themselves in the tribulation are called the elect, you realize that we are called the elect also (Col 3:12).

Since Mt 24:31 is describing the end of the tribulation, and other of the elect are previously seen in heaven in Rev 4:4, Rev 4:6, Rev 7:13-14, and Rev 14:1, I have another note concerning these gathered from everywhere from a study on Matthew Chapter Twenty-four that says: And these are all those who have been spared during that time of great tribulation.

What do you think?

 

[JLB]

No. The old covenant was made obsolete. The law of sin and death has not vanished. People still die. People still sin.

You said the law of Moses, not the law of sin and death.

The law of sin and death is what Adam transgressed in the Garden.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. Romans 5:12-14

Paul expounds upon this, as he says -

22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members...So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

The law of God - inner man
The law of sin - dwells in the flesh

Two different laws.

The law of Moses was added later on, to the Abraham Covenant. Galatians 3:19

Two different laws.

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin....There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 7:25-8:2


JLB

 

[JLB]

But that doesn't mean the law is abolished outside Christ.

In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete...Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Now what is becoming obsolete... Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. Jeremiah 31:31

When these words of the Lord [Christ] were spoken out of the mouth of Jeremiah, the covenant at Sinai that was added with it's law of commandments contained in ordinances, started becoming obsolete.


It vanished away at the cross.


JLB

 

[dianegcook]

.
Hi dianegcook, in order to show the order of events I’ll reverse the scriptures you quoted in their order, at least this seems to fit my thinking.

Dianegcook - Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. (Eugene - As you said: 3 ½ years.)

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days (3 ½ years) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Who are these elect in the tribulation? From your testimony here I think you realize that not only those believers finding themselves in the tribulation are called the elect, you realize that we are called the elect also (Col 3:12).

Since Mt 24:31 is describing the end of the tribulation, and other of the elect are previously seen in heaven in Rev 4:4, Rev 4:6, Rev 7:13-14, and Rev 14:1, I have another note concerning these gathered from everywhere from a study on Matthew Chapter Twenty-four that says: And these are all those who have been spared during that time of great tribulation.

What do you think?

First off, John was taken up to his future.
Verse 3 of Rev.4, we have, Casper, sardine, emerald, these are priest breast plates.
Exodus 39:10-15
Then we see the 12 Apostles
And
12 Patriarchs
Verse 7 of Rev.4, we see beast like a lion, referring to Judah, a calf, Ephrahim, face like a man, Rueben, an eagle, Dan.
Read Numbers chapter 2, and Ezekiel.1:10
Then we see them ,the living creatures, saying, Holy, Holy, Holy, God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come., Rev.4:8

Rev.7:13-14?
These are those whom are dead in Christ.
As we see in Rev.6:9-11
Saw the souls of them that were slain, for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held.
Avenge our blood on them...
Verse 11, And white robes were given unto every one of them, that they shall rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants, also their brethren that should be killed as they were.

Rev.14:1?
This is on earth, Lamb stood on mount Zion, and with Him, was the 144,000.
Read on, these were not harlots, they are virgins, remaining faithful to the true Christ.
Were redeemed from the earth, they overcame.These were first fruits unto God and to the Lamb, redeemed from among men.
Then we see the vials of wrath being poured, on those whom take the Mark.

And yes, I believe we are also called the elect, no Jew nor Greek, male nor female.
And yes, I know there was no punctuation nor chapters.
And I disagree with ya, on 2Thess.2:,
Prior to the even Him, we have whom the Lord shall consume with the brightness of His coming.
In verse 3 it states, the gathering does not take place, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

Thank you for being respectful, nice to talk to you.
Hope I helped you, in understanding my beliefs and why.

 

[Eugene]

Thank you for being respectful, nice to talk to you.
Hope I helped you, in understanding my beliefs and why.

Thank you too dear Sister dianegcook. There's a future coming where we'll know for sure huh?

 

[MarkT]

You said the law of Moses, not the law of sin and death.

Matthew 7:12
So whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
8 You leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.”

9 And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God, in order to keep your tradition! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die’;

The law of sin and death is what Adam transgressed in the Garden.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. Romans 5:12-14

Paul expounds upon this, as he says -

22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members...So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

The law of God - inner man
The law of sin - dwells in the flesh

Two different laws.

The law of Moses was added later on, to the Abraham Covenant. Galatians 3:19

Two different laws.

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin....There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 7:25-8:2


JLB

Same thing JLB.

When Jesus said not a dot would pass from the law, he was referring to the law given through Moses. Before Moses, the law was unknown, yet sin and death reigned from Adam to Moses. Ro. 5:12-14 Then the law came in to increase the trespass; knowing the law meant knowing sin. Ro.7:7 Sin is sin whether you know it is sin or not. It still means death. Knowing something is sin increases the trespass (it makes the trespass worse because you know it is sin, yet you do it anyway. ) So the idea of adding the law does not mean there was another law before it was added. It simply means the knowledge of sin was added, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin Ro. 3:20

Paul calls the law which came by Moses the law of sin and death. There's no other law. The covenant God made with Abraham was not a law.

So when Paul says 'the law of God', he is talking about the commandments of our Lord Jesus Christ, and when he is talking about the law in his members, he is talking about our human nature (carnal) and the desire of the flesh towards pleasure. Like an addiction might be described as a law in our members. Actually you don't even have to call it an addiction; the physical body is practically hard wired for pleasure.