If it's possible for men to remit sins

[ronniechoate34]

then can't we just fool men into forgiving us? I mean couldn't a person simply sin willingly and maliciously over and over again if all they have to do to be forgiven is confess in a closet, and, have a man tell them that their sins are forgiven?


I'll bet it would be super easy to fool the priest every time I asked for forgiveness. That is if I wanted to fool a priest into forgiving me I could according to the Catholic doctrine, and so could anyone else. But since I don't want to fool anyone in order to to enter heaven, and my High Priest is Jesus Christ, I think I'll be entering in through the straight gate and not trying to climb the walls to get in.

 

[chestertonrules]

then can't we just fool men into forgiving us? I mean couldn't a person simply sin willingly and maliciously over and over again if all they have to do to be forgiven is confess in a closet, and, have a man tell them that their sins are forgiven?


I'll bet it would be super easy to fool the priest every time I asked for forgiveness. That is if I wanted to fool a priest into forgiving me I could according to the Catholic doctrine, and so could anyone else. But since I don't want to fool anyone in order to to enter heaven, and my High Priest is Jesus Christ, I think I'll be entering in through the straight gate and not trying to climb the walls to get in.

Men can only forgive sins if they are acting for Jesus.

Think you can fool Jesus?

 

[glorydaz]

then can't we just fool men into forgiving us? I mean couldn't a person simply sin willingly and maliciously over and over again if all they have to do to be forgiven is confess in a closet, and, have a man tell them that their sins are forgiven?


I'll bet it would be super easy to fool the priest every time I asked for forgiveness. That is if I wanted to fool a priest into forgiving me I could according to the Catholic doctrine, and so could anyone else. But since I don't want to fool anyone in order to to enter heaven, and my High Priest is Jesus Christ, I think I'll be entering in through the straight gate and not trying to climb the walls to get in.

Men can only forgive sins if they are acting for Jesus.

Think you can fool Jesus?

Why should any man need to "act for Jesus" when we can come directly to the throne?

Man cannot see our heart...neither does he have the power to forgive sins.

Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Man is not the discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
But we do have a high priest who has all things opened to His sight.

Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

 

[ronniechoate34]

then can't we just fool men into forgiving us? I mean couldn't a person simply sin willingly and maliciously over and over again if all they have to do to be forgiven is confess in a closet, and, have a man tell them that their sins are forgiven?


I'll bet it would be super easy to fool the priest every time I asked for forgiveness. That is if I wanted to fool a priest into forgiving me I could according to the Catholic doctrine, and so could anyone else. But since I don't want to fool anyone in order to to enter heaven, and my High Priest is Jesus Christ, I think I'll be entering in through the straight gate and not trying to climb the walls to get in.

Men can only forgive sins if they are acting for Jesus.

Think you can fool Jesus?

No. But I could fool a man. No man is Jesus Christ on earth in that they can act as Jesus and pardon sins.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:


Jhn 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.


That is scripture- just because the catholic church twisted it around and has made a way of excuse for sin out of it, does not make the scripture any less true. We need to seperate the idea of falsely doing so, from the truth of doing so and walk in that.

 

[glorydaz]

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:


Jhn 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.


That is scripture- just because the catholic church twisted it around and has made a way of excuse for sin out of it, does not make the scripture any less true. We need to seperate the idea of falsely doing so, from the truth of doing so and walk in that.

It's a false idea to say man can forgive someone's sin. We can preach the gospel of the remittance of sins, which is what that verse is saying. Jesus is telling them that in His name we proclaim the forgiveness of sins. It's the blood that washes us whiter than snow.

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

We can forgive sins committed against us, but the ultimate forgiveness of sins is done by God.

And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Nowhere in Acts or in the epistles do we see any instance of an apostle remitting the sins of anyone. They do go everywhere, proclaiming the forgiveness of sins. Forgiveness of sins is only and alone through the blood of Jesus Christ. God forgives our sins when we believe that Christ died for them.

 

[chestertonrules]

Jhn 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on [them], and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:


Jhn 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.


That is scripture- just because the catholic church twisted it around and has made a way of excuse for sin out of it, does not make the scripture any less true. We need to seperate the idea of falsely doing so, from the truth of doing so and walk in that.

How does the Catholic Church twist this scripture?

 

[chestertonrules]

[
Nowhere in Acts or in the epistles do we see any instance of an apostle remitting the sins of anyone. They do go everywhere, proclaiming the forgiveness of sins. Forgiveness of sins is only and alone through the blood of Jesus Christ. God forgives our sins when we believe that Christ died for them.

James 5
16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

Acts 19:18
Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds.

Why did they do this?

Matt 18:18
"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.†22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.â€

2 Cor 2:10
To whom you forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

1 John 1
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Early Church Practice:

“In church confess your sins, and do not come to your prayer with a guilt conscience. Such is the Way of Life...On the Lord's own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure." Didache, 4:14,14:1 (c. A.D. 90).

Father who knowest the hearts of all grant upon this Thy servant whom Thou hast chosen for the episcopate to feed Thy holy flock and serve as Thine high priest, that he may minister blamelessly by night and day, that he may unceasingly behold and appropriate Thy countenance and offer to Thee the gifts of Thy holy Church. And that by the high priestly Spirit he may have authority to forgive sins..." Hippolytus, Apostolic Tradition, 3 (A.D. 215).

"In addition to these there is also a seventh, albeit hard and laborious: the remission of sins through penance...when he does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord." Origen, Homilies on Leviticus, 2:4 (A.D. 248).

"For although in smaller sins sinners may do penance for a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of communion: now with their time still unfulfilled, while persecution is still raging, while the peace of the Church itself is not vet restored, they are admitted to communion, and their name is presented; and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands Of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the eucharist is given to them; although it is written, 'Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.'" Cyprian, To the Clergy, 9 (16):2 (A.D. 250).

"All mortal sins are to be submitted to the keys of the Church and all can be forgiven; but recourse to these keys is the only, the necessary, and the certain way to forgiveness. Unless those who are guilty of grievous sin have recourse to the power of the keys, they cannot hope for eternal salvation. Open your lips, them, and confess your sins to the priest. Confession alone is the true gate to Heaven." Augustine, Christian Combat (A.D. 397).

 

[glorydaz]

[
Nowhere in Acts or in the epistles do we see any instance of an apostle remitting the sins of anyone. They do go everywhere, proclaiming the forgiveness of sins. Forgiveness of sins is only and alone through the blood of Jesus Christ. God forgives our sins when we believe that Christ died for them.

James 5
16Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

Acts 19:18
Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds.

Why did they do this?

Matt 18:18
"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.†22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.â€

2 Cor 2:10
To whom you forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

1 John 1
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

As I said...we can forgive someone for something they have done, but their sins must be forgiven by God through the blood sacrifice. It was that way in the OT and it's that way in the NT. I can forgive you for something you've done to me, but your sin is not forgiven until you confess it before God. God alone knows the heart of man. The mouth can say anything it wants.

There is a difference between man's forgiveness and God's. My forgiveness does not wash away your sins. If it did, there would be no reason for Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. That's why we point people to Jesus...He is the Way.

 

[francisdesales]

As I said...we can forgive someone for something they have done, but their sins must be forgiven by God through the blood sacrifice. It was that way in the OT and it's that way in the NT. I can forgive you for something you've done to me, but your sin is not forgiven until you confess it before God. God alone knows the heart of man. The mouth can say anything it wants.

There is a difference between man's forgiveness and God's. My forgiveness does not wash away your sins. If it did, there would be no reason for Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. That's why we point people to Jesus...He is the Way.

All true. Confessing to a priest, in our minds, is confessing to God AND the community at the same time, as per Christ's instructions and the earliest Christians' practices - that we confess our sins to God and everyone out loud so others "ordained" can bind or loosen us from those same sins, by authority given by Jesus... Only certain sins, what we call "mortal" are REQUIRED to be confessed to God through the priest. Other sins might be confessed in this manner to build up the virtue of obedience and humility, as well as having a more realistic and serious idea of what sin really is (our society does not understand the full meaning of sinning against the God of Love who has done so much for us - and we treat Him in such and such manner...)

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

No. But I could fool a man. No man is Jesus Christ on earth in that they can act as Jesus and pardon sins.

The Pharisees said the same thing in Mark 2...

If Jesus gives power to particular men to bind or loosen sins that they hear, the ministry of reconcilliation, it becomes a matter of "how much do I really desire to follow Christ, and "how much do I desire to follow my own opinions of Christ's teachings". Do you follow what God has revealed or what you have decided to pick and choose of God's commands? Have you also reinterpreted the sixth commandment, like so many Christians, committing fornication? Is homosexuality OK in your mind, because you have re-interpreted God's commands? They are quite clear and the first Christians understood and practiced it. The question to ask yourself is "why don't I do what the first Christians did?" Whom do I REALLY follow?

Regards

 

[ronniechoate34]

No. But I could fool a man. No man is Jesus Christ on earth in that they can act as Jesus and pardon sins.

The Pharisees said the same thing in Mark 2...

If Jesus gives power to particular men to bind or loosen sins that they hear, the ministry of reconcilliation, it becomes a matter of "how much do I really desire to follow Christ, and "how much do I desire to follow my own opinions of Christ's teachings". Do you follow what God has revealed or what you have decided to pick and choose of God's commands? Have you also reinterpreted the sixth commandment, like so many Christians, committing fornication? Is homosexuality OK in your mind, because you have re-interpreted God's commands? They are quite clear and the first Christians understood and practiced it. The question to ask yourself is "why don't I do what the first Christians did?" Whom do I REALLY follow?

Regards

God's commandments. Quit praying to idols and engaging in idol worship. Then you might be able to persuade me that you have a firm grasp on the commandments.

 

[francisdesales]

God's commandments. Quit praying to idols and engaging in idol worship. Then you might be able to persuade me that you have a firm grasp on the commandments.

Quit bearing false witness...

 

[chestertonrules]

[

As I said...we can forgive someone for something they have done, but their sins must be forgiven by God through the blood sacrifice. It was that way in the OT and it's that way in the NT. I can forgive you for something you've done to me, but your sin is not forgiven until you confess it before God. God alone knows the heart of man. The mouth can say anything it wants.

There is a difference between man's forgiveness and God's. My forgiveness does not wash away your sins. If it did, there would be no reason for Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. That's why we point people to Jesus...He is the Way.

Can God use a man to convey his forgiveness?

Isn't this what Jesus tells the apostles to do?

What do you think Paul means by this?

2 Cor 2:10
To whom you forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

 

[ronniechoate34]

God's commandments. Quit praying to idols and engaging in idol worship. Then you might be able to persuade me that you have a firm grasp on the commandments.

Quit bearing false witness...

It's not a false witness. You ask the saints to intercede for you, that's a prayer like it or not, and, you bow down to idols in order to help you focus while you act this out. It's called idol worship, and you practice it. You don't have to call it idol worship, it still is idol worship though.

 

[chestertonrules]

[


It's not a false witness. You ask the saints to intercede for you, that's a prayer like it or not, and, you bow down to idols in order to help you focus while you act this out. It's called idol worship, and you practice it. You don't have to call it idol worship, it still is idol worship though.

The bible instructs us to pray for each other.

Do you think you will stop praying for others when you get to heaven?

 

[francisdesales]

Quit bearing false witness...

It's not a false witness. You ask the saints to intercede for you, that's a prayer like it or not, and, you bow down to idols in order to help you focus while you act this out. It's called idol worship, and you practice it. You don't have to call it idol worship, it still is idol worship though.

It is a false witness, namely, because you can't even correctly relate what we do...

I don't worship saints in heaven any more than you worship saints here on earth whom you ask to pray for you...

If you think asking others to pray for you is idol worship, you have a serious issue with the Bible and Paul.

 

[ronniechoate34]

[


It's not a false witness. You ask the saints to intercede for you, that's a prayer like it or not, and, you bow down to idols in order to help you focus while you act this out. It's called idol worship, and you practice it. You don't have to call it idol worship, it still is idol worship though.

The bible instructs us to pray for each other.

Do you think you will stop praying for others when you get to heaven?

Yes, the Bible does instruct us to pray for one another. However, from what I know about praying to the dead it appears to be a pagan practice. The scriptures clearly say that the dead have no portion in this world. They have memories of this life but they can't affect anything that goes on here.


The only dead that I know are praying are those in hell that are praying for relief and intercession for the living, and those that are in heaven that have been slain for being witness to the Word of God. The latter are not praying for God to intercede with blessings. It's quite the contrary. Those in heaven are praying for blood and vengeance. Do you notice the contrast that the scriptures have put forth? According to the Word the dead haven't a clue what's going on with us here on earth. Can you show me other scriptures? Perhaps I've missed something.


I don't know what God has in store for me or you my friend. And neither do you. Let's life this life for Jesus and let Him take care of those that have gone on before us and He'll do the same for us if we should be blessed enough with God's grace to not have ran this race in vain.

 

[francisdesales]

Yes, the Bible does instruct us to pray for one another. However, from what I know about praying to the dead it appears to be a pagan practice.

The issue is not whether pagans did it, but whether a practice is done BECAUSE pagans did it.

Pagans eat, breath air, live in houses, copulate, have children and eventually die. Hopefully, you see my point that because we ALSO eat, breath, live in houses, etc., that doesn't make us pagan. The logic is faulty.

What matters is whether WE practice it BECAUSE pagans did it. And quite clearly, this is not the case, since the Jews before Christ did this...

The scriptures clearly say that the dead have no portion in this world. They have memories of this life but they can't affect anything that goes on here.

Who were those two men at Mount Tabor with Jesus??? Are you saying that men in heaven cannot pray for people here? What does Revelation say on this subject?

The only dead that I know are praying are those in hell that are praying for relief and intercession for the living, and those that are in heaven that have been slain for being witness to the Word of God.
The latter are not praying for God to intercede with blessings. It's quite the contrary. Those in heaven are praying for blood and vengeance. Do you notice the contrast that the scriptures have put forth? According to the Word the dead haven't a clue what's going on with us here on earth. Can you show me other scriptures? Perhaps I've missed something.

You just contradicted yourself. How can the dead have "no clue" about what is going on here, when they can pray for "blood and vengeance"? How do they know whether God has taken that vengeance yet or not IF they "don't have a clue". Clearly, the saints in heaven are quite aware of what happens, as Hebrews says - the cloud of witnesses who surround us. They must know what is happening if they surround us, as the Greek says regarding the two men on Mount Tabor. Please explain how they wouldn't know what is going on, if they are united with Christ and surround us...

I don't know what God has in store for me or you my friend. And neither do you. Let's life this life for Jesus and let Him take care of those that have gone on before us and He'll do the same for us if we should be blessed enough with God's grace to not have ran this race in vain.

If you don't mind, I will continue to ask the saints in heaven for their prayers, just as my brothers and sisters have for 2000 years, since the prayers of a righteous man is truly effective.

I can use all the help and prayers I can get.

Regards

 

[ronniechoate34]

It is a false witness, namely, because you can't even correctly relate what we do...

Listen. You told me this yourself. Maybe I misunderstood so let me explain to you how I understood this. You are asking the spirits of dead saints to speak on your behalf to the almighty God. Is that correct?


I suggest that you get a Thesaurus.

I don't worship saints in heaven any more than you worship saints here on earth whom you ask to pray for you...

There is a difference between following instruction and creating collective prayers for our brothers and sisters in the community and asking dead spirits for things. A contrast exists there those things doesn't it? I see one. It's a pagan practice and there really isn't any scriptural basis for praying to any other spirit than the Spirit of God.

If you think asking others to pray for you is idol worship, you have a serious issue with the Bible and Paul.

No, I really don't have an issue with Paul or the Bible. I have issues with lots of things but that's not one of them.