If it's possible for men to remit sins

[ronniechoate34]

It is hardly an effort to confess a terrible crime to "yourself" in your bedroom where no one can hear or know of it.

This is a true denial of the scriptures.


M't:6:6: But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

 

[Mysteryman]

ronnie

I agree with your premise here.

It is not that one can go into a little box and just ask one for forgiveness. I agree

It is much deeper than that. You can ask God of and by yourself for forgiveness. This is true - I John 1:9

James 5:16 tells us to confess to one another and pray one for another. The effectual prayer of a righteous person availeth much. This is also a way in which one can receive the counsel of one's heart, knowing that this paticular person's heart was not right.

If any man falls we are suppose to restore one who has fallen , but only them which are spiritual - Galatians 6:1 and verse 2 bear one another's burdens

Love IN Christ - MM

 

[francisdesales]

No one has addressed this proverbial two ton elephant in the living room.

Perhaps you are confused with "addressing the topic" vs "utterly convincing me that you are correct"...

It has been addressed, and only someone who hasn't read the thread would make such silly comments.

Couldn't a person simply sin willingly and maliciously over and over again if all they have to do to be forgiven is confess in a closet, and, have a man tell them that their sins are forgiven?

No, because the priest, upon the command of Christ, has the POWER TO BIND. It isn't automatic. If a priest detects no contrition, he does not have to offer sacramental absolution.

And being that people quite easily delude themselves, who is to say this [false confession] cannot be done in private in your water closet?

Also, there are many many well documented problems that have risen over the the years because of the act of confessing ones sins to a fallible man in a closet. I have not even addressed those here, but I can. And again those issues will most likely be ignored. Just like the Catholic church has been ignoring them for as long as it has been an institution.

Are you trying to tell me confession to a priest is PERFECT and is fool-proof??? Who gave you that idea? The OP is about whether it is POSSIBLE, not whether someone COULD circumvent the procedure (as if you couldn't pretend you were sorry to yourself...)

And don't tell me that it's possible for a man to issue forgiveness in the place of God because he is acting as Jesus Christ.

Where is your scriptural evidence for this fallacy??? Scriptures tell us men have been given authority to forgive sins. Just as the Father gave Jesus authority, so Jesus gave the apostles authority. Perhaps you don't believe Jesus had the authority to do this...?

Sorry if you don't like that, but that is what the Bible says...

 

[ronniechoate34]

All of those broken lives and homes surrounding the Catholic church. It doesn't sound like healing to me.

 

[A-Christian]

Couldn't a person simply sin willingly and maliciously over and over again if all they have to do to be forgiven is confess in a closet, and, have a man tell them that their sins are forgiven?

As a former Protestant that has confessed my sins in the privacy of my, car, my bedroom, my kitchen, my living room, and other places, I can tell you that it takes far more humility to confess to a priest. And not everyone confesses their sins in a closet. I sit in a well-lit room and face my priest face-to-face.

All of those broken lives and homes surrounding the Catholic church. It doesn't sound like healing to me.

That shot was expected by Catholics reading this thread. I imagine if one was to google "preacher indicted" or something like that, you would find nothing.

 

[francisdesales]

All of those broken lives and homes surrounding the Catholic church. It doesn't sound like healing to me.

Confession and forgiveness provides the means by which broken lives are repaired in Christ.

Didn't you know that?

 

[ronniechoate34]

[quote="A-Christian"


As a former Protestant that has confessed my sins in the privacy of my, car, my bedroom, my kitchen, my living room, and other places, I can tell you that it takes far more humility to confess to a priest. And not everyone confesses their sins in a closet. I sit in a well-lit room and face my priest face-to-face.[/quote]


Humility? Let me tell you something. Faith produces humility. I have never felt as humble in the presence of a man as I have in the groaning of my spirit as I humble myself before God Almighty and receive His reproof for my wickedness as I confess before Him.





[quote="A-Christian"That shot was expected by Catholics reading this thread. I imagine if one was to google "preacher indicted" or something like that, you would find nothing.[/quote]


Why do you suppose that the Catholic church is the only church that I see as hell bound and full of false doctrines? What about one mister Benny Hinn? I'll tell you what about Benny Hinn. This ain't his thread, but there is a thread that deals with him in the general topics area. You are welcome take a look at that if you'd like to.


Listen, I'm no angel. Sin dwells in my flesh, so then I am always growing to the Lord, through my grief my faith will give way to newness of mind. A mind fully set on the Lord Jesus Christ and God the Father.

 

[ronniechoate34]

All of those broken lives and homes surrounding the Catholic church. It doesn't sound like healing to me.

Confession and forgiveness provides the means by which broken lives are repaired in Christ.

Didn't you know that?

Yes. Godly sorrow leads to repentance and repentance leads to the remission of sins. Also I have confessed my sins to those who I have wronged in my life. I don't always walk as I am expected to. So then when I have done wrong to the people that I love, or anyone at all, I admit that to them because of the grief that I feel for my actions. I admit that in order to heal from a heavy conscience and a worrisome burden that may be overwhelming we must admit our sins to one another. But those sins that harm only your relationship with God should be dealt with solely with God. Because wicked thought and carnal desires more often than not breed the same in others when they are spoken of.


Has anyone noticed any increasingly alarming trends in the news and talk show media over the last 10 years. I sat down in a hospital lobby and Oprah was on and let me tell you it sounded that "lady" was advocating filthy acts between adults and children. There are many many examples that I could mention but the point would still be the same. Some things are better left unsaid.

 

[glorydaz]

All of those broken lives and homes surrounding the Catholic church. It doesn't sound like healing to me.

Confession and forgiveness provides the means by which broken lives are repaired in Christ.

Didn't you know that?

Yes. Godly sorrow leads to repentance and repentance leads to the remission of sins. Also I have confessed my sins to those who I have wronged in my life. I don't always walk as I am expected to. So then when I have done wrong to the people that I love, or anyone at all, I admit that to them because of the grief that I feel for my actions. I admit that in order to heal from a heavy conscience and a worrisome burden that may be overwhelming we must admit our sins to one another. But those sins that harm only your relationship with God should be dealt with solely with God. Because wicked thought and carnal desires more often than not breed the same in others when they are spoken of.


Has anyone noticed any increasingly alarming trends in the news and talk show media over the last 10 years. I sat down in a hospital lobby and Oprah was on and let me tell you it sounded that "lady" was advocating filthy acts between adults and children. There are many many examples that I could mention but the point would still be the same. Some things are better left unsaid.

You make a very good point. Men...whether priests or ministers are not above sin, themselves. Just hearing sexual sins could very well lead to sin in the hearer. And who can really bare their souls to any man the way they can to God? I don't believe it's possible, nor do I believe that is God's will for us. True sorrow for sins requires more than words....it requires and inward rending of the heart. God alone can see our hearts and hear what can't even be put into words.

 

[francisdesales]

Why do you suppose that the Catholic church is the only church that I see as hell bound and full of false doctrines?

Because you don't have a clue about Catholicism and your pastor told you so???

What about one mister Benny Hinn? I'll tell you what about Benny Hinn. This ain't his thread, but there is a thread that deals with him in the general topics area. You are welcome take a look at that if you'd like to.

Benny Hinn is not Catholic. What does this have to do with anything?

Listen, I'm no angel. Sin dwells in my flesh, so then I am always growing to the Lord, through my grief my faith will give way to newness of mind. A mind fully set on the Lord Jesus Christ and God the Father.

You have yet to disprove what the Scriptures plainly say. All the wishing and hoping won't change that.

 

[francisdesales]

Yes. Godly sorrow leads to repentance and repentance leads to the remission of sins. Also I have confessed my sins to those who I have wronged in my life. I don't always walk as I am expected to. So then when I have done wrong to the people that I love, or anyone at all, I admit that to them because of the grief that I feel for my actions. I admit that in order to heal from a heavy conscience and a worrisome burden that may be overwhelming we must admit our sins to one another. But those sins that harm only your relationship with God should be dealt with solely with God. Because wicked thought and carnal desires more often than not breed the same in others when they are spoken of.

There is no such sin that effects ONLY you... Wicked thoughts effect your attitude towards women, for example...

Any sin you partake in influences how you treat other people. As such, all serious sin effects the community.

Has anyone noticed any increasingly alarming trends in the news and talk show media over the last 10 years. I sat down in a hospital lobby and Oprah was on and let me tell you it sounded that "lady" was advocating filthy acts between adults and children. There are many many examples that I could mention but the point would still be the same. Some things are better left unsaid.

That's because too many "Christians" tend to rationalize or de-emphasize the reality of what sin is. The blame for this must rest squarely with particular brands of liberal Protestantism and those "Sunday Catholics" who are lulled into this false gospel.. True repentance begins with knowing the depths of our disobedience to a God who has totally given of Himself to mankind.

 

[francisdesales]

You make a very good point. Men...whether priests or ministers are not above sin, themselves.

We don't make that claim. Even the Pope confesses his sins to another priest. The idea is that sacramental confession brings the absolution of God visibly to the person in need of forgiveness. There is absolutely no implication that the priest is above sin, since we all know priests go to confession, as well.

Just hearing sexual sins could very well lead to sin in the hearer.

this is for the carnal Christian, who can just as easily be aroused from reading Song of Songs...

And who can really bare their souls to any man the way they can to God? I don't believe it's possible, nor do I believe that is God's will for us. True sorrow for sins requires more than words....it requires and inward rending of the heart. God alone can see our hearts and hear what can't even be put into words.

I do not understand your point here. If I can express in words my sorrow, the priest can grant me absolution through the power given by God. To bind or loosen sins, obviously, a person must HEAR those sins, correct? Naturally, contrition leading to sacramental confession is a rending of the heart to God, correct? God knows our hearts and knows we are obeying Scriptures when we understand the necessity to confess our sins to others. And as others here have expressed, it is a consoling thing, to HEAR, "your sins are forgiven"...

I don't see the Scriptures that outlaws this practice, I do see where Scriptures allow it and expects it, though. If we believe the Scriptures are the Word of God, then we practice what they command, even if we prefer not to confess to a person given such authority.

Regards

 

[ronniechoate34]

Why do you suppose that the Catholic church is the only church that I see as hell bound and full of false doctrines?

Because you don't have a clue about Catholicism and your pastor told you so???

Nope. That's not the answer. That's not even close. That's simply a "stab" in the dark.

What about one mister Benny Hinn? I'll tell you what about Benny Hinn. This ain't his thread, but there is a thread that deals with him in the general topics area. You are welcome take a look at that if you'd like to.

Benny Hinn is not Catholic. What does this have to do with anything?

Don't worry about it. It wasn't directed at you anyway, but you stilled missed the point .

Listen, I'm no angel. Sin dwells in my flesh, so then I am always growing to the Lord, through my grief my faith will give way to newness of mind. A mind fully set on the Lord Jesus Christ and God the Father.

You have yet to disprove what the Scriptures plainly say. All the wishing and hoping won't change that.

And you continually reject what the scriptures plainly say. All of you arrogance isn't going to make them mean what you'd like for them to.

 

[ronniechoate34]

Yes. Godly sorrow leads to repentance and repentance leads to the remission of sins. Also I have confessed my sins to those who I have wronged in my life. I don't always walk as I am expected to. So then when I have done wrong to the people that I love, or anyone at all, I admit that to them because of the grief that I feel for my actions. I admit that in order to heal from a heavy conscience and a worrisome burden that may be overwhelming we must admit our sins to one another. But those sins that harm only your relationship with God should be dealt with solely with God. Because wicked thought and carnal desires more often than not breed the same in others when they are spoken of.

There is no such sin that effects ONLY you... Wicked thoughts effect your attitude towards women, for example...

Any sin you partake in influences how you treat other people. As such, all serious sin effects the community.

That's not true. Temptation is temptation. And if by partake in you mean to practice the sin earnestly, or to secretly love the sins that beset you then don't worry. I'm not partaking in any sin. The way I treat others is to realize that they too are fallible and given to discourse. I treat them as I would like to be treated.


I'll agree that sin carries negative effects. But Jesus Christ is able to heal us and set our relationships in order. Or alternately God may use your relations with others in order to chasten you and give you cause for thought.

Has anyone noticed any increasingly alarming trends in the news and talk show media over the last 10 years. I sat down in a hospital lobby and Oprah was on and let me tell you it sounded that "lady" was advocating filthy acts between adults and children. There are many many examples that I could mention but the point would still be the same. Some things are better left unsaid.

That's because too many "Christians" tend to rationalize or de-emphasize the reality of what sin is. The blame for this must rest squarely with particular brands of liberal Protestantism and those "Sunday Catholics" who are lulled into this false gospel.. True repentance begins with knowing the depths of our disobedience to a God who has totally given of Himself to mankind.

Actually,,,no. It's because there is a definite plan to flood the minds of people with filth. Look for all that and more during the next broadcast of Maury Povich. What a sick perverted country we live in.

 

[glorydaz]

I do not understand your point here. If I can express in words my sorrow, the priest can grant me absolution through the power given by God. To bind or loosen sins, obviously, a person must HEAR those sins, correct? Naturally, contrition leading to sacramental confession is a rending of the heart to God, correct? God knows our hearts and knows we are obeying Scriptures when we understand the necessity to confess our sins to others. And as others here have expressed, it is a consoling thing, to HEAR, "your sins are forgiven"...

I don't see the Scriptures that outlaws this practice, I do see where Scriptures allow it and expects it, though. If we believe the Scriptures are the Word of God, then we practice what they command, even if we prefer not to confess to a person given such authority.

Regards

A person doesn't bind or loosen sin....a person can only pronounce, in the present, what God has already established in heaven. We can pronounce forgiven those whom the Father has already forgiven because of their repentance and faith in Christ...and retain the sins of those who lack repentance through their unbelief. The church is given the authority to call sin by it's rightful name...to declare what God has declared. We follow His lead, He doesn't follow ours.

Basically, binding and loosing has to do with saying such and such is not a sin or it is a sin according to the Word of God. When the disciples met with all the leaders and decided circumcision was not necessary for the gentiles, they were loosing. When they said they were not to eat meat offered to idols, they were binding. These are things we all do as Christians when we speak forth the Word. As we confess our sins one to another, we can agree there is sin, and pray with our brothers that God will help them overcome those sins in the future.

I certainly wouldn't say the practice of confessing to a priest is "outlawed", but it just isn't required nor does it remove sin that should be confessed to the Lord in the privacy of one's prayer closet. It may make some people feel better to hear their sins are forgiven....I wouldn't discount that, but I don't see it as required in any way. That, of course, is a different issue from asking forgiveness from an individual one has wronged or coming before the assembly in order to be restored to fellowship in the assembly.

 

[francisdesales]

You have yet to disprove what the Scriptures plainly say. All the wishing and hoping won't change that.

And you continually reject what the scriptures plainly say. All of you arrogance isn't going to make them mean what you'd like for them to.

Plainly, you cannot read...

Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained. John 20:22-23

IF YOU FORGIVE SINS, THEY ARE FORGIVEN.
Let me emphasize this again, for those who are in denial...

IF YOU FORGIVE... THEY ARE FORGIVEN...

Please note that it says nothing about pronouncing God's forgiveness or anything like that. WHEN the apostle or his successor forgives sin, THEN, they are forgiven. If retained, they are RETAINED.

Please knock off the "it's not Scriptural" garbage. It literally says what it says. Scriptural acrobats don't make it go away...

 

[francisdesales]

A person doesn't bind or loosen sin....

You are again confusing John 20 with Matthew 16/18. We aren't talking about binding and loosening, which is juridicial power, but rather, forgiving and retaining sins. Those are the words used by Christ, forgive and retain...

a person can only pronounce, in the present, what God has already established in heaven.

It appears John 20 has the order reversed from what you say... Please read John 20:22-23 again, without any bias and see what it says...

We can pronounce forgiven those whom the Father has already forgiven because of their repentance and faith in Christ...and retain the sins of those who lack repentance through their unbelief.

I don't see that in the Scriptures. Do you have a verse to back that idea up?

I certainly wouldn't say the practice of confessing to a priest is "outlawed", but it just isn't required nor does it remove sin that should be confessed to the Lord in the privacy of one's prayer closet.

Clearly, glory, Scriptural warrant exists - although you do raise an interesting point...

"Isn't required"... I don't see in Scriptures where a man MUST confess to an apostle or a successor. But the way I look at it, the idea is a gift from God. A power given by Jesus to mankind for a reason. Jesus didn't just blithely give such authority without reason. I see it as a gift. And NOT using a grace or gift given by God is akin to not using a talent God has given us. I do not feel comfortable with the idea that as I stand before God, I can convince Him that "I wasn't required to use that gift of Confession, so I refused to do it", when I darn well know the Scriptures and the practice of 2000 years of Christianity. If you look at Judaism, the mindset of the Apostles, they also were quite aware of sin offerings and public rituals and Yom Kippur where sin was removed. Not sure whether they taught "Go in private and ask God directly to forgive your sins, and it'll be done".

I don't see such verses... Even in the first century, we see Christians confessing their sins in public...

It would be interesting to research when that idea first came into vogue within even a heretical sect of Christianity - no doubt in tandem with the idea of removing priests from their vocations... Wonder what other false teachings they would share with those who absolutely disbelieve in sacramental confession.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

There is no such sin that effects ONLY you... Wicked thoughts effect your attitude towards women, for example...

Any sin you partake in influences how you treat other people. As such, all serious sin effects the community.

That's not true. Temptation is temptation. And if by partake in you mean to practice the sin earnestly, or to secretly love the sins that beset you then don't worry. I'm not partaking in any sin. The way I treat others is to realize that they too are fallible and given to discourse. I treat them as I would like to be treated.

I don't think you understood what I said, because your response has nothing to do with what I said...

there is no "private only" sins...Whether you admit it or not, looking at Playboy magazines effects your outlook towards other women...

I'll agree that sin carries negative effects. But Jesus Christ is able to heal us and set our relationships in order. Or alternately God may use your relations with others in order to chasten you and give you cause for thought.

I agree. That is the point of Confession, to set our relationships in order with Christ.

...too many "Christians" tend to rationalize or de-emphasize the reality of what sin is. The blame for this must rest squarely with particular brands of liberal Protestantism and those "Sunday Catholics" who are lulled into this false gospel.. True repentance begins with knowing the depths of our disobedience to a God who has totally given of Himself to mankind.

Actually,,,no. It's because there is a definite plan to flood the minds of people with filth. Look for all that and more during the next broadcast of Maury Povich. What a sick perverted country we live in.

More devout Christians are not effected. We turn the channel and don't watch that garbage. it is only those who rationalize "oh, it's not so bad, it's only a woman's body, and God made women", etc. and are taught that they are saved, always saved, no matter what, that leads Christians to continue to be led into such filth and enjoy it. Those who are behind such broadcasts are giving the people what they want, sex and more of it... If people refused to watch it, boycotted it, etc., you'd see a change, as these shows pursue the almighty dollar. Lose sponsors, and they change. But because so many "Christians" have lost a sense of sin, and many more are not Christian to begin with, you'll get what we have...

We don't live in a Christian nation, per sec, anymore.

 

[glorydaz]

We can pronounce forgiven those whom the Father has already forgiven because of their repentance and faith in Christ...and retain the sins of those who lack repentance through their unbelief.

I don't see that in the Scriptures. Do you have a verse to back that idea up?

A better reading would be...."they have been"...

and this having said, he breathed on [them], and saith to them, `Receive the Holy Spirit; if of any ye may loose the sins, they are loosed to them; if of any ye may retain, they have been retained.'

I bring up the binding and loosing because I see it refers to what is being alluded to in John 20. The keys to the kingdom refer to the authority invested in building the church. Matt. 18 is speaking of church discipline and handling offences. Included in those are forgiveness, reconciliation, and church discipline. The forgiveness speaks of releasing personal debts, restoring relationships, and receiving people back into fellowship.

So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.

To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

This clearly speaks of church discipline as in the case of the fornicator who was first excommunicated and now is being received back into fellowship. In the same way, John 20:23 refers to various roles of church discipline where the leaders had God’s backing in choosing and refusing others to fellowship and ministry. The Apostles were about to pick the 12th apostle, so it makes sense they would be embued with the power of the Holy Spirit at that time. Even though the Holy Spirit wasn't given until Pentecost, He was at work in the selecting of men to the ministry before that and continued afterwards...with Saul and Barnabas for instance and the accepting of the gentiles into fellowship.

In the same way, when Jesus healed someone, he said, "Thy sins be forgiven thee." Was He saying they were saved and sanctified, and bound for heaven, or was He "forgiving" certain consequences of sin?

And he entered into a ship, and passed over, and came into his own city. And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth. And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. And he arose, and departed to his house. But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

What Jesus (as a man) forgave, and therefore what men can forgive, is certain consequences of sin. Only God can forgive acts of sin and motives for sin. Church discipline is important in whether the preaching of the Gospel can be carried out effectively. Preaching the forgiveness of sins through Jesus' death on the cross...which can only be obtained through faith is not the same as the forgiveness men are called to within the assembly. We are to forgive one another and bring the sinner back into fellowship...that is different than forgiveness of sin that only God can do.

 

[ronniechoate34]

I don't think you understood what I said, because your response has nothing to do with what I said...

there is no "private only" sins...Whether you admit it or not, looking at Playboy magazines effects your outlook towards other women...

Yeah. if that's what my practices are. But I don't practice those things. Besides, what do you know about how I relate to women?

Plainly, you cannot read...

Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained. John 20:22-23

IF YOU FORGIVE SINS, THEY ARE FORGIVEN.
Let me emphasize this again, for those who are in denial...

IF YOU FORGIVE... THEY ARE FORGIVEN...

Please note that it says nothing about pronouncing God's forgiveness or anything like that. WHEN the apostle or his successor forgives sin, THEN, they are forgiven. If retained, they are RETAINED.

Please knock off the "it's not Scriptural" garbage. It literally says what it says. Scriptural acrobats don't make it go away...

Actually, the Bible isn't always literal. No one stands in the place of Jesus Christ. His glory will not be given to another and it's the glory of God to forgive sins and allow men peace. Not yours or mine.