If it's possible for men to remit sins

[glorydaz]

[

As I said...we can forgive someone for something they have done, but their sins must be forgiven by God through the blood sacrifice. It was that way in the OT and it's that way in the NT. I can forgive you for something you've done to me, but your sin is not forgiven until you confess it before God. God alone knows the heart of man. The mouth can say anything it wants.

There is a difference between man's forgiveness and God's. My forgiveness does not wash away your sins. If it did, there would be no reason for Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. That's why we point people to Jesus...He is the Way.

Can God use a man to convey his forgiveness?

Isn't this what Jesus tells the apostles to do?

What do you think Paul means by this?

2 Cor 2:10
To whom you forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

Paul is referring to a person who had been disciplined by the church...after which having godly sorrow and repentance was not being restored to fellowship. Paul was encouraging them to show brotherly love and forgiveness. He was saying as Christ forgives the penitent soul, so does he. As Christ forgives his sin, the church should forgive his offense against them as well. He was reminding them ..."forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". So we should all do....we are forgiven and we should forgive others.

 

[chestertonrules]

[

As I said...we can forgive someone for something they have done, but their sins must be forgiven by God through the blood sacrifice. It was that way in the OT and it's that way in the NT. I can forgive you for something you've done to me, but your sin is not forgiven until you confess it before God. God alone knows the heart of man. The mouth can say anything it wants.

There is a difference between man's forgiveness and God's. My forgiveness does not wash away your sins. If it did, there would be no reason for Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. That's why we point people to Jesus...He is the Way.

Can God use a man to convey his forgiveness?

Isn't this what Jesus tells the apostles to do?

What do you think Paul means by this?

2 Cor 2:10
To whom you forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

Paul is referring to a person who had been disciplined by the church...after which having godly sorrow and repentance was not being restored to fellowship. Paul was encouraging them to show brotherly love and forgiveness. He was saying as Christ forgives the penitent soul, so does he. As Christ forgives his sin, the church should forgive his offense against them as well. He was reminding them ..."forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". So we should all do....we are forgiven and we should forgive others.

That's an interesting analysis but it is not what the bible says.

for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ

 

[ronniechoate34]

Yes, the Bible does instruct us to pray for one another. However, from what I know about praying to the dead it appears to be a pagan practice.

The issue is not whether pagans did it, but whether a practice is done BECAUSE pagans did it.

Pagans eat, breath air, live in houses, copulate, have children and eventually die. Hopefully, you see my point that because we ALSO eat, breath, live in houses, etc., that doesn't make us pagan. The logic is faulty.

What matters is whether WE practice it BECAUSE pagans did it. And quite clearly, this is not the case, since the Jews before Christ did this...

I saw a time magazine article that said that the Jesuits were Mystics from their very begining. And guess what. The Jesuits didn't mind being called that. So it's not a huge leap from there to understand why there are so many pagan practices prevelant in the Catholic church. So,,,,,yeah.

The scriptures clearly say that the dead have no portion in this world. They have memories of this life but they can't affect anything that goes on here.

Who were those two men at Mount Tabor with Jesus??? Are you saying that men in heaven cannot pray for people here? What does Revelation say on this subject?

Well now. It appears as if you have me cornered . Those two spoke with Him concerning His death. I am unaware of exactly what they know or don't know about the events taking place here or how much if any influence they have on anything that happens here. I know that ultimately this is all in God's hands and we have the ability to approach Him through Jesus Christ. To disregard that fact is acting in a faithless manner.


Please enlighten me about what Revelation says on this subject.

The only dead that I know are praying are those in hell that are praying for relief and intercession for the living, and those that are in heaven that have been slain for being witness to the Word of God.
The latter are not praying for God to intercede with blessings. It's quite the contrary. Those in heaven are praying for blood and vengeance. Do you notice the contrast that the scriptures have put forth? According to the Word the dead haven't a clue what's going on with us here on earth. Can you show me other scriptures? Perhaps I've missed something.

You just contradicted yourself. How can the dead have "no clue" about what is going on here, when they can pray for "blood and vengeance"? How do they know whether God has taken that vengeance yet or not IF they "don't have a clue".

Well, they are actually with God. If God acts they will obviously be aware of that.

Clearly, the saints in heaven are quite aware of what happens, as Hebrews says - the cloud of witnesses who surround us. They must know what is happening if they surround us, as the Greek says regarding the two men on Mount Tabor. Please explain how they wouldn't know what is going on, if they are united with Christ and surround us...

I don't know. That cloud of witnesses seems like to me it's probably the angels that keep watch for the Lord and mind our every deed and thought for Him. I don't get the feeling that those who are deceased are actually a part of that.

I don't know what God has in store for me or you my friend. And neither do you. Let's life this life for Jesus and let Him take care of those that have gone on before us and He'll do the same for us if we should be blessed enough with God's grace to not have ran this race in vain.

If you don't mind, I will continue to ask the saints in heaven for their prayers, just as my brothers and sisters have for 2000 years, since the prayers of a righteous man is truly effective.

I can't stop you. Go right ahead and live as you see fit.

 

[chestertonrules]

.

 

[chestertonrules]

I don't know. That cloud of witnesses seems like to me it's probably the angels that keep watch for the Lord and mind our every deed and thought for Him. I don't get the feeling that those who are deceased are actually a part of that.
.

The Cloud of Witnesses is Old Testament saints. Heb. 11 recounts the faith of the Old Testament saints and ends like this:

Heb 11
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

then Heb 12 starts:

1Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.


Also, we read in Luke 15 that those in heaven are aware of what is happening on earth:

7I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

 

[francisdesales]

It is a false witness, namely, because you can't even correctly relate what we do...

Listen. You told me this yourself. Maybe I misunderstood so let me explain to you how I understood this. You are asking the spirits of dead saints to speak on your behalf to the almighty God. Is that correct?

yes, but we don't worship them, nor more than you worship Fred Doe or whomever you ask at your congregation to pray for you or your son, etc..

Worship is only given to God. We are simply asking another Christian, one who IS righteous, being in heaven, to pray for us. How can they resist such a request, since they are now entirely united to the Love of God?

I suggest that you get a Thesaurus.

I have one. What would you like me to look up for you?

There is a difference between following instruction and creating collective prayers for our brothers and sisters in the community and asking dead spirits for things. A contrast exists there those things doesn't it? I see one. It's a pagan practice and there really isn't any scriptural basis for praying to any other spirit than the Spirit of God.

I do not see the big difference between Paul asking Timothy and the Ephesians to pray for him and I asking St. Timothy in heaven to pray for me, at least spiritually speaking. Of course, in the flesh, there is a difference, but I am presuming that you are trying to move beyond fleshy things, since we are dealing with spiritual matters, which are just as real, more so, than material things and people standing right in front of me...

Considering that the Scriptures deals with the first Christians and Apostles while they were still alive, there was no need to "pray to the dead saints". But once these holy men passed on into the next world, many Christians found a particular sense of unity of the Body by asking these same Apostles and other heroes of the faith to pray for them. Not even death separates us from the Body, correct?

Let's put two and two together. Does death separate us from Christ? Are the dead in Christ still cognizant of what is happening here on earth? Are Christians told, even commanded, to pray for the sake of others? Is such prayers an act of love? These are all Biblical concepts - which logically lead to prayers to saints who have moved into eternal life... Quite biblical.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I saw a time magazine article that said that the Jesuits were Mystics from their very begining. And guess what. The Jesuits didn't mind being called that. So it's not a huge leap from there to understand why there are so many pagan practices prevelant in the Catholic church. So,,,,,yeah.

You lost me, ronnie. Perhaps you misunderstand what a "mystic" is? Really, it is our aim, to be in union with Christ in a "mystical" manner, mysterious manner. For example, when we pray, we "sense" that God is telling us something specific. Isn't that mysterious and mystical, ronnie? Is it something we can explain to science or prove by empirical evidence???

As to "pagan practices...", I think you are reading anti-catholic tracts again without looking at the other point of view to get a true and valued judgment on the situation.

Who were those two men at Mount Tabor with Jesus??? Are you saying that men in heaven cannot pray for people here? What does Revelation say on this subject?

Well now. It appears as if you have me cornered . Those two spoke with Him concerning His death. I am unaware of exactly what they know or don't know about the events taking place here or how much if any influence they have on anything that happens here.

Yes, talking about Jesus' death, indicating they were quite alert of what was happening and identifying WHO the Christ was in person. That was my point, ronnie. I am not suggesting they were convincing Jesus, etc. on whether to die on the cross or not... But the point is made - the dead are indeed aware, in some manner, of what is happening here on earth. The parable about lazarus and the rich man also makes this clear.

As I said, the Greek of the Transformation brings out the true meaning - the prophets were "made manifest" - in other words, already there, just not visible. Some Greek friends of mine have verified this interpretation. Quite nicely ties in with the "cloud of witnesses that encompass us", don't you think...? Even atheists and non-believers have some sort of respect for the numinous, that mysterious sense that those beyond this life have not entirely "died" to this world...

I know that ultimately this is all in God's hands and we have the ability to approach Him through Jesus Christ. To disregard that fact is acting in a faithless manner.

Agree.

Please enlighten me about what Revelation says on this subject.

The fact that the saints in heaven are interceding for God to "take vengeance", as you said, tells us they are indeed alert, able to respond to God, intercede to Him, and know what is going on here on earth. As such, our Christian faith is not compromised by taking this information and understanding that those same men and women, STILL united to Christ, would DESIRE to pray for us!

You just contradicted yourself. How can the dead have "no clue" about what is going on here, when they can pray for "blood and vengeance"? How do they know whether God has taken that vengeance yet or not IF they "don't have a clue".

Well, they are actually with God. If God acts they will obviously be aware of that.

I'll take that as "I stand corrected".

Clearly, the saints in heaven are quite aware of what happens, as Hebrews says - the cloud of witnesses who surround us. They must know what is happening if they surround us, as the Greek says regarding the two men on Mount Tabor. Please explain how they wouldn't know what is going on, if they are united with Christ and surround us...

I don't know. That cloud of witnesses seems like to me it's probably the angels that keep watch for the Lord and mind our every deed and thought for Him. I don't get the feeling that those who are deceased are actually a part of that.

But in Hebrews, who does "Paul" (I'll presume he wrote it, although we don't really know) list as those same witnesses? The fathers of our faith (in the OT). He speaks about Abraham, Moses, Elijah, the Maccabean brothers, etc... THOSE are the "cloud of witnesses", not the angels. "Paul" discusses the purpose of angels in the very beginning of this same writing, correct?

I can't stop you. Go right ahead and live as you see fit.

I will thank you and wish you the same.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

Paul is referring to a person who had been disciplined by the church...after which having godly sorrow and repentance was not being restored to fellowship. Paul was encouraging them to show brotherly love and forgiveness. He was saying as Christ forgives the penitent soul, so does he. As Christ forgives his sin, the church should forgive his offense against them as well. He was reminding them ..."forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us". So we should all do....we are forgiven and we should forgive others.

That's an interesting analysis but it is not what the bible says.

for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ

Actually, it is what the Bible says.

You don't see the disciples going around forgiving sins, you see them preaching the gospel. Those who believe in the Lord have their sins forgiven already.

Just as we pray in the name of Jesus, "in the person of Christ" means Christ is the way our sins are forgiven. We forgive sins committed against us. The church forgives those who repent and are welcomed back into fellowship. But the forgiveness of sins comes by belief in our Lord Jesus Christ...and that is what we're told to preach.

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Sins are remitted by belief in Jesus.

Confessing our sins to a man isn't what does it.
That only puts us into a right relationship with our brothers.

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

 

[francisdesales]

You don't see the disciples going around forgiving sins, you see them preaching the gospel. Those who believe in the Lord have their sins forgiven already.

Just as we pray in the name of Jesus, "in the person of Christ" means Christ is the way our sins are forgiven. We forgive sins committed against us. The church forgives those who repent and are welcomed back into fellowship. But the forgiveness of sins comes by belief in our Lord Jesus Christ...and that is what we're told to preach.

I'm thinking you should also include "repentance" in there, as well as belief. Consider the Jewish OT cycle of sin and repentance. The belief was there, the Covenant was there. But it was only with repentance and a desire to return to God did the Lord then relent and forgive.

I agree with your point, just like to add that in there...

Sins are remitted by belief in Jesus

.

Would you agree that this applies more to a person FIRST coming to the faith, rather than us? By believing in Jesus, that gives me an open fiat to commit all sins because I believe already??? It sounds strange to me. I think we should consider this more a relationship than a legal status. Consider the Prodigal Son parable. The act of repentance is important in the act of putting sin behind us, sin that God forgives.

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

You don't see the disciples going around forgiving sins, you see them preaching the gospel. Those who believe in the Lord have their sins forgiven already.

Just as we pray in the name of Jesus, "in the person of Christ" means Christ is the way our sins are forgiven. We forgive sins committed against us. The church forgives those who repent and are welcomed back into fellowship. But the forgiveness of sins comes by belief in our Lord Jesus Christ...and that is what we're told to preach.

I'm thinking you should also include "repentance" in there, as well as belief. Consider the Jewish OT cycle of sin and repentance. The belief was there, the Covenant was there. But it was only with repentance and a desire to return to God did the Lord then relent and forgive.

I agree with your point, just like to add that in there...

Yes, you're correct...repentance is crucial. I did mention it in my previous post and should have done so again.

Actually, though, I believe repentance and belief are two sides of the same coin. If a person truly believes he must repent...otherwise he really doesn't have a saving faith. How can man look upon Jesus and His work on the cross without turning?

Sins are remitted by belief in Jesus

.

Would you agree that this applies more to a person FIRST coming to the faith, rather than us? By believing in Jesus, that gives me an open fiat to commit all sins because I believe already??? It sounds strange to me. I think we should consider this more a relationship than a legal status. Consider the Prodigal Son parable. The act of repentance is important in the act of putting sin behind us, sin that God forgives.

Ah, now we enter into our old debate. ;) When a person is born again, his sins are forgiven...he has been washed, had his heart circumcised, and has entered into eternal life. Now we are children of God and will be chastened when we disobey, but the "open fiat" to commit all sins is not possible because God is faithful to discipline and keep those who have been given to the Son.

 

[francisdesales]

Actually, though, I believe repentance and belief are two sides of the same coin. If a person truly believes he must repent...otherwise he really doesn't have a saving faith. How can man look upon Jesus and His work on the cross without turning?

True.

Ah, now we enter into our old debate. ;) When a person is born again, his sins are forgiven...he has been washed, had his heart circumcised, and has entered into eternal life.

True again. But entering eternal life means entering into Christ and He in to me. Not going to heaven - at least yet... JESUS is eternal life. AS we abide in Him, we have eternal life.

I think the Bible is clear that it is possible to fall from this relationship - although it is always held out to us to return, as in the Prodigal Son. He freely left his relationship with the father, but repented.

Now we are children of God and will be chastened when we disobey, but the "open fiat" to commit all sins is not possible because God is faithful to discipline and keep those who have been given to the Son.

So you are saying man has no free will? I thought love required my free will decision? Children can disown themselves. It appears God allowed the Jews in the desert, His children of the Covenant to "die" in the desert, didn't He? Except two. Doesn't Paul use that in 1 Cor 10 as an example for US??? Why would Paul say that is an example for us? He chose an example of death, not just discipline...

Regards

 

[glorydaz]

True again. But entering eternal life means entering into Christ and He in to me. Not going to heaven - at least yet... JESUS is eternal life. AS we abide in Him, we have eternal life.

I think the Bible is clear that it is possible to fall from this relationship - although it is always held out to us to return, as in the Prodigal Son. He freely left his relationship with the father, but repented.

No doubt we can fall from the relationship, but we are then only prodigal...estranged, but still sons.

So you are saying man has no free will? I thought love required my free will decision? Children can disown themselves. It appears God allowed the Jews in the desert, His children of the Covenant to "die" in the desert, didn't He? Except two. Doesn't Paul use that in 1 Cor 10 as an example for US??? Why would Paul say that is an example for us? He chose an example of death, not just discipline...

Regards

No, I'm not saying we don't have a free will...quite the contrary. Children can run away or be in rebellion, true. Does that mean they are no longer our children? We're to train up a child the way he should go and when he is "old" he will not depart from it.

Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

I don't know about you, brother, but all my kids went through a time of rebellion in their teen years...they all came to their senses with maturity. I can see that in the believer's life, as well. Loving and compliant with the excitement of being saved and then comes a time of questioning and even some rebellion. The Lord arranges some trials and testings that draw us back into fellowship with Him. As we mature, we realize it's extremely uncomfortable to turn our backs on God...the Prodigal son found that out.

You make a good point with 1 Cor. 10...but the Word tells us they entered not in because of unbelief. They certainly knew God...just as many "know" God today, but they have never been born again a new creature. Being saved requires more than partaking of the forgiveness of our sins that Jesus accomplished on the cross...we must partake of the resurrection unto life. Some turn back before they enter into the promised land. We're to strive to enter in...and then we can rest, knowing our Father is faithful to keep us.

 

[Mysteryman]

How about this --

Jesus said, "the works that I do, ye shall do, and greater works , because I go unto my Father"

IN Christ - MM

 

[francisdesales]

No doubt we can fall from the relationship, but we are then only prodigal...estranged, but still sons.

Are you saying that just because we are sons today, we cannot "die"? Again, what about the Jews in the desert, God's People rescued from Egypt? Baptized in the Red Sea, eating bread from heaven daily... And what happened? They all, but two, DIED!

I think Paul wrote about this for a reason, don't you? Sure, we have a relationship, but is God in a position where He MUST bring us into heaven, even if we later treat God with indifference and commit evil??? Doesn't Ezekiel speak of this? Ah, I think we've addressed that enough before, right?

I'm not saying this is common, just possible. God will back us up when we turn to HIm, He won't pull the rug out from us. But doesn't Paul speak about not entering the Kingdom if we commit atrocious sins against God AFTER we have been saved??? Perhaps in Biblical times, this was quite rare, but just the fact Paul wrote about it must indicate that saved Christians WERE committing sinful acts that endangered them and their destiny, the promise made to them.

No, I'm not saying we don't have a free will...quite the contrary. Children can run away or be in rebellion, true. Does that mean they are no longer our children? We're to train up a child the way he should go and when he is "old" he will not depart from it.

Again, brother, I agree we are always God's children, but I note that children can cut themselves off from their parents, a la Prodigal son. When IF he never returned??? When if we become too proud to repent? I know people like that, Glory.

Isn't that possible?

I don't know about you, brother, but all my kids went through a time of rebellion in their teen years...they all came to their senses with maturity.

But sometimes, they don't. I have such a daughter, Glory. Really. We keep praying for her, but it is her choice. She'll always be our daughter, but until she straigthens out and realizes we love her, there really isn't much relationship from her perpective. I see God looks at us like we our daughter, in a way. It is a very difficult thing as a parent, but we must let her do her will. I think God feels that way with wayward people.

You make a good point with 1 Cor. 10...but the Word tells us they entered not in because of unbelief. They certainly knew God...just as many "know" God today, but they have never been born again a new creature. Being saved requires more than partaking of the forgiveness of our sins that Jesus accomplished on the cross...we must partake of the resurrection unto life. Some turn back before they enter into the promised land. We're to strive to enter in...and then we can rest, knowing our Father is faithful to keep us.

Well, we can "unbelieve" later in life. I believe God wants us all to be saved. But some of us won't, whether we never came to Him or did for awhile and fell away again. Is God a respecter of persons? Do you beleive in hell? I do, and believe that sadly, God allows people to choose an eternal life without Him.

By the way, I much more enjoy our approach to this disagreement than last time!

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

How about this --

Jesus said, "the works that I do, ye shall do, and greater works , because I go unto my Father"

IN Christ - MM

Good point. "He who hears you hears Me"... I think Christ wanted His presence to continue after He ascended to the Father.

Regards

 

[ronniechoate34]

No one has addressed the issues that began this topic to my satisfaction at all. This leads me to believe that no one really has a satisfactory answer to the problems concerning the practice of confession. Why don't you all start a new thread or better yet, address the issues I've raised. I would like to hear exactly how it is that anyone is so arrogant that they believe it's possible for them to know another man's heart and remove their sin.

 

[glorydaz]

Are you saying that just because we are sons today, we cannot "die"? Again, what about the Jews in the desert, God's People rescued from Egypt? Baptized in the Red Sea, eating bread from heaven daily... And what happened? They all, but two, DIED!

Indeed, and Moses was one that died. Yet he will be with us in heaven. Amen?

I'm not saying this is common, just possible.

I'm not God, so I will admit it's possible. If someone's conscience becomes so seared he enters into unbelief then he has committed the unpardonable sin.

But sometimes, they don't. I have such a daughter, Glory. Really. We keep praying for her, but it is her choice. She'll always be our daughter, but until she straigthens out and realizes we love her, there really isn't much relationship from her perpective. I see God looks at us like we our daughter, in a way. It is a very difficult thing as a parent, but we must let her do her will. I think God feels that way with wayward people.

Don't give up on that one, brother. I had such a one myself. She nearly killed herself with drink and I had to report her to DHS and take custody of her child. I had given up, but the Lord...and only the Lord...answered my prayer. She is the prodigal returned and I rejoice every single day.

By the way, I much more enjoy our approach to this disagreement than last time!

Regards

I'll give a hearty amen to that. I've had a chance to get to know you, and I count you as a dear brother in the Lord. :yes

 

[francisdesales]

Indeed, and Moses was one that died. Yet he will be with us in heaven. Amen?

Amen! You understand the point, I presume, of 1 Cor 10.

I'm not God, so I will admit it's possible. If someone's conscience becomes so seared he enters into unbelief then he has committed the unpardonable sin.

Seared? I think it is a matter of indifference over years, I don't think it is something that happens overnight. Faith just fades away for some people... And over the years, their hearts harden, so they never bother to ask God for forgiveness - and that is the unpardonable sin.

Don't give up on that one, brother. I had such a one myself. She nearly killed herself with drink and I had to report her to DHS and take custody of her child. I had given up, but the Lord...and only the Lord...answered my prayer. She is the prodigal returned and I rejoice every single day.

yes, we continue to pray for her, thanks. I bring her up because we cannot know IF she'll "return".

I'll give a hearty amen to that. I've had a chance to get to know you, and I count you as a dear brother in the Lord. :yes

You as well.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

No one has addressed the issues that began this topic to my satisfaction at all. This leads me to believe that no one really has a satisfactory answer to the problems concerning the practice of confession. Why don't you all start a new thread or better yet, address the issues I've raised. I would like to hear exactly how it is that anyone is so arrogant that they believe it's possible for them to know another man's heart and remove their sin.

It's too bad you are not satisfied. I think satisfactory answers have been given, we are interpreting Scriptures that speak of others given the power to forgive sins. This is hardly arrogant, since no one is claiming that power for THEMSELVES. One can even say this is HUMBLING. It is hardly an effort to confess a terrible crime to "yourself" in your bedroom where no one can hear or know of it. This is not the case when you go to someone that we believe Scriptures have given authority to forgive sins.

Naturally, you can disagree with the interpretation, but there it is.

Regards

 

[ronniechoate34]

No one has addressed the issues that began this topic to my satisfaction at all. This leads me to believe that no one really has a satisfactory answer to the problems concerning the practice of confession. Why don't you all start a new thread or better yet, address the issues I've raised. I would like to hear exactly how it is that anyone is so arrogant that they believe it's possible for them to know another man's heart and remove their sin.

It's too bad you are not satisfied. I think satisfactory answers have been given, we are interpreting Scriptures that speak of others given the power to forgive sins. This is hardly arrogant, since no one is claiming that power for THEMSELVES. One can even say this is HUMBLING. It is hardly an effort to confess a terrible crime to "yourself" in your bedroom where no one can hear or know of it. This is not the case when you go to someone that we believe Scriptures have given authority to forgive sins.

Naturally, you can disagree with the interpretation, but there it is.

Regards

No one has addressed this proverbial two ton elephant in the living room.


Couldn't a person simply sin willingly and maliciously over and over again if all they have to do to be forgiven is confess in a closet, and, have a man tell them that their sins are forgiven?


I'll bet it would be super easy to fool the priest every time I asked for forgiveness. That is if I wanted to fool a priest into forgiving me I could, according to the Catholic doctrine, and so could anyone else.


Or this one.


I would like to hear exactly how it is that anyone is so arrogant that they believe it's possible for them to know another man's heart and remove their sin.


I believe no one has answered to these issues because no one can reconcile the facts to meet their beliefs. Otherwise someone would've been able to clear these issue up right away.


Also, there are many many well documented problems that have risen over the the years because of the act of confessing ones sins to a fallible man in a closet. I have not even addressed those here, but I can. And again those issues will most likely be ignored. Just like the Catholic church has been ignoring them for as long as it has been an institution.


And don't tell me that it's possible for a man to issue forgiveness in the place of God because he is acting as Jesus Christ. I have never met a man that could know my heart nor will I ever meet one short of Jesus Christ Himself. But you are welcome to judge me and everything if that's what stokes your ego. I wouldn't recommend it though, pretending to be God is deadly business.