If the pope changed his mind...

[stray bullet]

Sorry, but the doctrine of Mary didn't come into being until the 1870's. So the pope did change doctrine! The Mary thing wasn't in early church doctrine because it's nowhere in the bible. So I thought you said the Holy Spirit would never allow doctrine to be changed. Which it is? :o

Heidi, your understanding of Catholicism is very little and thus, quite flawed.

The Church does not go by doctrine. It goes by Scripture, Holy Tradition and Magisterium (doctrine). The Pope did not change doctrine, rather the Church defined our beliefs and set them in stone by establishing the Immaculate Conception as doctrine in the 1870s.

Originally, the Church only had the teachings of the apostles, handed down through the generations and protected by the Holy Spirit. Many of these teachings were written down and became our NT. Some of it was written by Paul early on. Those teachings which were written became our Scripture. That which wasn't written, but, like scripture, was passed down through the Church and protected by the Holy Spirit, becamse known as "Holy Tradition".

Evil will always try to draw Christians away from the truth and into confussion and heresy. To safeguard the Church from this, the Ecumenical Councils of the Church, were inspired by the Holy Spirit and declared doctrine. That is, defintions, which limit how far one can interpret Tradition and Scripture.

The Catholic Church believed that God protected Mary from the sin throughout the history of the Church. The basis of this was Scripture and Holy Tradition. It became necessary, however, to establish it as doctrine.

So if you don't worship the pope, then were did you get the doctrine that Mary was a virgin all her life and sinless? :o Can you make one honest statement? :o

The belief that Mary was sinless came from God, through the apostles and was preserved in the Church by the Holy Spirit.

Also the doctrine of Mary didn't come into being until the 1870's. So the pope did change doctrine! The Mary thing wasn't in early church doctrine because it's nowhere in the bible. So I thought you said the Holy Spirit would never allow doctrine to bechanged. So which it is? :o

At Pentecost, the Catholic Church didn't just decide to write all the doctrine that was ever to be. Doctrine is something which must be created much later, when people begin not believing or twisting what they believe.


As a protestant, you might understand it this way- the bible can be interpreted many different ways. Just because someone defines and declares an interpretation of the bible, doesn't mean it's a new belief. It just means that as of that specific date, the interpretation was defined and declared.

The Church believes according to Scripture and Holy Tradition. Doctrine is created, defined, from these because of disagreement within the Church. Just as Paul would write letters to the Christian Churches when they began to disagree, the Church, who are the successors of the apostles, do as Paul and the other apostles with their NT epistles.

 

[stray bullet]

If the pope changed his mind and said that Mary was not sinless, and not a virgin all of her life, would you believe him? :o

I dunno, if Paul said that Jesus wasn't the Son of God, would you believe him?

The Pope is an apostle and apostles wouldn't do that.

 

[stray bullet]

Oh but the pope has said things contradictory to the bible:

No, the Pope has said things that contradict your modern, man-made teachings. Try looking up some Christian text from the 6th Century and see if you can find what you disagree with the Catholic Church on in there. You won't. Protestant beliefs are inventions of the last 500 years.

The bible also said that Jesus had siblings and makes no mention of them being from another marriage so the perpetual virginity of mary is a made-up gospel.

Jesus did not have siblings. Read the Gospel over again, on the cross, he gave Mary over to John to take care of her. This is because she had no one else to take care of her.

 

[Solo]

If the pope changed his mind and said that Mary was not sinless, and not a virgin all of her life, would you believe him? :o

I dunno, if Paul said that Jesus wasn't the Son of God, would you believe him?

The Pope is an apostle and apostles wouldn't do that.

The Pope is no more an apostle than Mary. The pope is an imposter of Jesus Christ sitting on a manmade political throne of satanic influence upon millions and millions of people. Other than that the Pope is a swell guy!

The Holy Spirit is the Vicar of Christ for the believers on this earth after Jesus' ascension. Anything less than His reign is counterfeit.

 

[stray bullet]

If the pope changed his mind and said that Mary was not sinless, and not a virgin all of her life, would you believe him? :o

I dunno, if Paul said that Jesus wasn't the Son of God, would you believe him?

The Pope is an apostle and apostles wouldn't do that.

The Pope is no more an apostle than Mary. The pope is an imposter of Jesus Christ sitting on a manmade political throne of satanic influence upon millions and millions of people. Other than that the Pope is a swell guy!

The Holy Spirit is the Vicar of Christ for the believers on this earth after Jesus' ascension. Anything less than His reign is counterfeit.

Solo, I suggest you learn what Catholics actually believe, instead of reading the rancid bile people upload onto the internet.

The Pope is not an imposter of Jesus Christ. He is the success or Peter the apostles, whom Jesus told was the foundation of His Church and the Keeper of the Keys of Heaven. (Matthew 16)

Peter went to Rome and was martyred. His succeessor was Linus, who had a successor, and this continues all the way into the present day. The Pope got political power when the Christians came to power. Without this power, do you realize you would be studying the Koran and going to Mosque on Saturdays?

The history of Christianity and the Catholic Church is fascinating and inspiring, but read real sources, not garbage on the internet by hate filled men that say the Pope is trying to pretend to be Christ.

He's a fallible human, just like the rest of us.

 

[Solo]

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15403b.htm[/url][/list]

Here is the truth as to who the Vicar of Christ is:

• 
  Here is an excerpt from an article at http://www.letusreason.org/RC24.htm
  The True Vicar of Christ
  
  Because there is a direct connection between the redemption of Christ and the ministry of the Holy Spirit, it is a soul damning error to mistake the work of the Holy Spirit as Vicar of Christ with the position or work of any man. As Christ Jesus had been the Master, Counselor and Guide to the believers, He promised to send the Holy Spirit as His substitute so that He might abide with them for ever.â€Â[4] In believers’ lives the Holy Spirit has full, immediate, and universal influence, as the Scripture so wonderfully teaches, “now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.â€Â[5] The work of the Spirit is transforming; we are changed from one degree of glorious grace unto another, until by that same grace one day we will be perfect in with Him in glory forever. How much therefore should Christians prize the full and complete ministry of the Holy Spirit! In the face of these awesome truths concerning the role and ministry of the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ, it is horrendous to learn that the Vatican proclaims, “The Pope enjoys, by divine institution, supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls.â€Â[6] Persuading men and women that Christ the Lord left a mortal man to be His vicar on earth attempts to gainsay the very purpose of Christ Jesus.

[/size]

 

[Heidi]

It appears that the pope isn't far off from the anti-christ who will sit in the "holy of holies" and declare himself to be God. He will be able to deceive many and try to "deceive, as Jesus says, "even the elect...if that were possible." This all started when the pope declared himself "Our Holy Father" which Jesus specifically warned us not to do. But nevertheless, many people who call themselves Christians ignore Jesus and believe the pope which is why the anti-Christ will be so popular.

So I wash my hands of people who ignore Jesus and listen to the pope. I have spent hundreds of hours telling them the dangers of doing this, but to no avail. I will continue to defend Jesus over the pope so my conscience is clear.

 

[CatholicXian]

If the pope changed his mind and said that Mary was not sinless, and not a virgin all of her life, would you believe him? :o

This is impossible, because the pope does not have the power to declare doctrine/dogma (which are defined as truths of the faith) to suddenly be somehow "false". In a certain manner, regarding faith and morals from his office, the pope may declare certain things to be true-- but the pope does not have the power to change truth.

Thus, that is the answer to your question. It is impossible because the pope does not have the power to change that which is true.

 

[Heidi]

If the pope changed his mind and said that Mary was not sinless, and not a virgin all of her life, would you believe him? :o

This is impossible, because the pope does not have the power to declare doctrine/dogma (which are defined as truths of the faith) to suddenly be somehow "false". In a certain manner, regarding faith and morals from his office, the pope may declare certain things to be true-- but the pope does not have the power to change truth.

Thus, that is the answer to your question. It is impossible because the pope does not have the power to change that which is true.

So why do you believe that Mary was sinless or a virgin all of her life when it's not in the bible? :o How do you justify your belief? :-?

 

[CatholicXian]

If the pope changed his mind and said that Mary was not sinless, and not a virgin all of her life, would you believe him? :o

This is impossible, because the pope does not have the power to declare doctrine/dogma (which are defined as truths of the faith) to suddenly be somehow "false". In a certain manner, regarding faith and morals from his office, the pope may declare certain things to be true-- but the pope does not have the power to change truth.

Thus, that is the answer to your question. It is impossible because the pope does not have the power to change that which is true.

So why do you believe that Mary was sinless or a virgin all of her life when it's not in the bible? :o How do you justify your belief? :-?

It IS in the Bible (at least implicitly), embeded in the Greek word "kekaritomene" (found in Luke 1:28) which is a perfect past participle--i.e., it refers to an action that was COMPLETED in the past. What is that action? The Immaculate Conception. God prepared Mary from the moment of her existence--the moment of her very conception to be the worthy vessel to give Jesus His humanity and be His mother. This was a great and tremendous grace given to Mary by God.

 

[thessalonian]

If the pope changed his mind and said that Mary was not sinless, and not a virgin all of her life, would you believe him? :o

What you don't get and what is simply amazing, considering how many times you people contradict eachother is that no pope has ever contradicted another Pope or a council on matters of faith and morals that have been dogmatically declared as such and no council has contradicted a pope in such a matter and there are alot of declarations as such. So when it happens I'll let you know. My guess is the gates of hell shall not prevail.

 

[thessalonian]

Im really not following that one...

And you didnt answer my question... Is it a yes or is it a no about really wanting an answer out of real curiousity.

Absolutely. I want to find our who is loyal to the pope no matter what he says, biblical or not.

What we are finding out is who is ignorant of what the Catholic Church says and how it applies. Thanks for your thread. I'll have more time for it tommorow.

By the way, who was following Moses through the desert? Did Moses ever change his mind. Oh, he must really have been God. Did any of the prophets change their mind on what God said before they wrote it down. It wasn't written down immediately when God gave it to them I hate to tell you. Do you suppose the Apostles changed their minds about what happened in their lives as Christ walked with them in the 25-30 years before they wrote it down. Why they must have been gods. People actually listened to what they said, when they weren't changing their minds and contradicting eachother? Heidi, your premise is silly.

 

[Heidi]

Im really not following that one...

And you didnt answer my question... Is it a yes or is it a no about really wanting an answer out of real curiousity.

Absolutely. I want to find our who is loyal to the pope no matter what he says, biblical or not.

What we are finding out is who is ignorant of what the Catholic Church says and how it applies. Thanks for your thread. I'll have more time for it tommorow.

By the way, who was following Moses through the desert? Did Moses ever change his mind. Oh, he must really have been God. Did any of the prophets change their mind on what God said before they wrote it down. It wasn't written down immediately when God gave it to them I hate to tell you. Do you suppose the Apostles changed their minds about what happened in their lives as Christ walked with them in the 25-30 years before they wrote it down. Why they must have been gods. People actually listened to what they said, when they weren't changing their minds and contradicting eachother? Heidi, your premise is silly.

So if the pope disagreed with Jesus, would you believe him? Yes or no.

And since he has already disgareed with Jesus when Jesus said not to call anyone on earth; 'father' (particularly religious figures which is what that whole passages is talking about), and you believe the pope over Jesus, then it is obvious that you think the pope is God.

But, that doesn't matter to you. You will defend the pope regardless of how many scriptures we point out that disagree with him. Therefore, you do not follow Christ's words and are therefore unteachable. But I wash my hands of the catholics. My consicience is clear becuase I don't agree with anyone who disagrees with Jesus. You'll simply have to wait until you die to find out who was right; the pope or Jesus because they disagree with each other.

 

[Heidi]

If the pope changed his mind and said that Mary was not sinless, and not a virgin all of her life, would you believe him? :o

This is impossible, because the pope does not have the power to declare doctrine/dogma (which are defined as truths of the faith) to suddenly be somehow "false". In a certain manner, regarding faith and morals from his office, the pope may declare certain things to be true-- but the pope does not have the power to change truth.

Thus, that is the answer to your question. It is impossible because the pope does not have the power to change that which is true.

So why do you believe that Mary was sinless or a virgin all of her life when it's not in the bible? :o How do you justify your belief? :-?

It IS in the Bible (at least implicitly), embeded in the Greek word "kekaritomene" (found in Luke 1:28) which is a perfect past participle--i.e., it refers to an action that was COMPLETED in the past. What is that action? The Immaculate Conception. God prepared Mary from the moment of her existence--the moment of her very conception to be the worthy vessel to give Jesus His humanity and be His mother. This was a great and tremendous grace given to Mary by God.

Do you know what a made-up gospel Is? :o

Where does the bible ever say that Mary was born sinless?

Romans, 8:29, "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." It's very clear here that the bibles says that Jesus was the firstborn of God. So not only can Mary not have been born sinless, nowhere does it say that. That comes from the imaginations of men.

 

[thessalonian]

Heidi,

First of all you tell us that everything is in the Bible. Where does the Bible say that? Then you imply by your posting that everything that you believe is what the bible says, even though much of it you put your own words to. I see evidence of every Catholic doctrine in scripture. Some of it is implicit. What is explicit you refuse to believe anyway.

Now tell me how can the sinlessness of Mary change the Gospel. Our view is that by God's grace he prevented her from sin. It is still salvation by grace through faith. If she had not faith in him she would have sinned. But she was not strong enough to resist the Holy Spirit you would say. It could only have been by the power of the HS that she resisted sin. She had no power on her own to do so except what God gave her.


But even putting all of that aside. Who cares what we think about Mary. That was 2000 years ago. We teach and believe that we are sinners in need of a savior, called Jesus Christ. We must repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and we shall recieve the Holy Spirit. That is the Gospel and so if you are going to charge us with a false Gospel we must deal with that.

Blessings

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

So not only can Mary not have been born sinless, nowhere does it say that

So then, what is your response to CatholicXian's post?

It IS in the Bible (at least implicitly), embeded in the Greek word "kekaritomene" (found in Luke 1:28) which is a perfect past participle--i.e., it refers to an action that was COMPLETED in the past. What is that action? The Immaculate Conception. God prepared Mary from the moment of her existence--the moment of her very conception to be the worthy vessel to give Jesus His humanity and be His mother. This was a great and tremendous grace given to Mary by God.

You can't say she is using a bad translation... This it the original Koine Greek.

1 Corinthians 11: 7, "A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God;..." But the catholics not only cover their heads in church, they wear pointy hats like the Ku Klux Klan.

Sigh...... My fellow Christian. Would you please pick one of my posts that I have written that insulted your faith.
Could you?

I haven't.
I, like most of the other Catholics here have shown you charity and respect.

Now, insult me all you wish, but I will only ask you this once: Leave the Church alone. Critique her. Disagree with her. You can believe what you wish about her.
Out of respect to your fellow Christians, don't compare us to a hate group.

Christ said that we will be recognized by our love for one another.
Let's see some of that love.

 

[CatholicXian]

It's very clear here that the bibles says that Jesus was the firstborn of God.

So where are God's other biological children? Are there more members of the Holy Trinity that God has yet to reveal to us?

NO.

Jesus is the ONLY Son of God.





"Firstborn", then, does not always necessarily imply that there are other children.

 

[Heidi]

It's very clear here that the bibles says that Jesus was the firstborn of God.

So where are God's other biological children? Are there more members of the Holy Trinity that God has yet to reveal to us?

NO.

Jesus is the ONLY Son of God.





"Firstborn", then, does not always necessarily imply that there are other children.

:o You really need to read the bible, catholicxian. All throughout the NT Paul talks about those born again of the Holy Spirit being the "sons of God." And that's one reason why Jesus said not to cll anyone on earth father. Once we are born again of the Holy Spirit, we are born of God. The Spirit now transforms us into a new creation, the old is gone and the new has come. It's all over the NT so the verses are too numerous to quote. If you had read the bible, you would know this, catholicxian.

So if you're interested in the truth, read the bible and believe it and you will know whose teaching is false and whose is true.

 

[Imagican]

If the pope changed his mind and said that Mary was not sinless, and not a virgin all of her life, would you believe him? :o

I dunno, if Paul said that Jesus wasn't the Son of God, would you believe him?

The Pope is an apostle and apostles wouldn't do that.

The Pope is no more an apostle than Mary. The pope is an imposter of Jesus Christ sitting on a manmade political throne of satanic influence upon millions and millions of people. Other than that the Pope is a swell guy!

The Holy Spirit is the Vicar of Christ for the believers on this earth after Jesus' ascension. Anything less than His reign is counterfeit.

Brother, sometimes we disagree, and boy do we disagree sometimes, but sometimes we agree, and when we agree, boy do we agree. An Amen to this post. All that and humor as well!! We're gonna make a moderator outta you yet!! he he he.

I would like to offer this: has Catholic doctrine EVER changed or been altered since it's inception? And, if the answer is YES, then Who was the creator of these changes or alterations? Are NOT the Catholics 'bound' to ACCEPT ANYTHING that the Pope states? Is he is or is he ain't Christ's representative here on earth capable of EVEN offering the sacrament AS IF HE WERE CHRIST HIMSELF?

Come on guys. Why would ANYONE teach that men need 'another' imperfect man to be their intermediary? (This ones easy to answer). There is but ONE intercessor and He IS NOT an imperfect man, or sinner.

Now why would ANYONE 'choose' to believe that ANYONE less perfect than Christ is capable of offering ANYTHING other than 'false hope'? (This one's a bit tougher).

Ah, I guess I rest my case, for now.

 

[stray bullet]

Heidi, why did Jesus give Mary's care to John? The children are responsible for the care of their widowed mothers.

Read your bible, it's right there!

What are you saying, that Mary did a good job raising Jesus and despite having Jesus as their half brother, his 'siblings' were so terrible they wouldn't even take care of their own mother?

Jesus had no siblings. Joseph was dead and so Mary went with John.