Mary was born with a sinful nature.

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

The fact that all people (except Jesus Himself) are inclined to sin becomes obvious when innocent children are observed over time. They commit sin before they even know what it is. But they have to be trained to be righteous, because it's not in their nature. They don't have to be trained to sin, because it's in their nature. It's not human nature, it's sinful nature.

So if you claim that innocent children are not inherently sinful exactly like Adam was before his fall, then the obvious implication is that you believe God created Adam with an inclination to sin. So according to your doctrine, God would be the author of sin.

But the traducian doctrine says that Adam was created sinless, and he was the one that infused sin in himself and in all mankind. This is what Paul teaches in Rom. 5. In Rom. 7 Paul says that sin was in him before he knew the law "do not covet." But that the law actually induced the sin to come out in his behavior. So then, he is teaching that people are born in sin, that is, born with a sinful nature.

I agree that the power of the Spirit helps us (He is the Helper) to overcome sin and the world. "This is what overcomes the world, even our faith." (1 Jn. 5). But I think John would agree that it's not actually faith itself that overcomes, but the fact that we trust God to grace us with the power to overcome. So it is the unregenerate who are in bondage to sin, whereas believers in Jesus are encouraged to overcome it because God is with them.

The command to be angry but without sin is not a guarantee that we are without sin or can be without sin. It does depend on our spiritual maturity and faith, that in the moment of testing we are more desirous of God's will than our own petty concerns.

We sin, because we are MORTAL. The sin "principle", as you say elsewhere, is in our mortal flesh. It is not a part of our spiritual nature. We sin because the world pressures us to sin and our mortal bodies pressure us to sin through instinct. We are born struggling for resources to survive. That is the basis of sin. The first sin caused this mortal state of being. Thus, we all sin because we are all dying the moment we are born.
Death is what the Lord came to save us from. He saves mankind from mortality. Buying us back from death, through death.

Christ is risen from.the grave.
Trampling down death by death.
And upon those in the tombs.
Bestowing life.
Amen!

 

[tdidymas]

We sin, because we are MORTAL. The sin "principle", as you say elsewhere, is in our mortal flesh. It is not a part of our spiritual nature. We sin because the world pressures us to sin and our mortal bodies pressure us to sin through instinct. We are born struggling for resources to survive. That is the basis of sin. The first sin caused this mortal state of being. Thus, we all sin because we are all dying the moment we are born.
Death is what the Lord came to save us from. He saves mankind from mortality. Buying us back from death, through death.

Christ is risen from.the grave.
Trampling down death by death.
And upon those in the tombs.
Bestowing life.
Amen!

I don't agree with your premise. Mortality does not cause sin. The Bible says "the wages of sin is death," so death is the result of sin, not the cause. Sin is the cause of death, not the effect. Also, sin is part of the spiritual nature of unregenerate man. If it weren't, people would not need to be born of the Spirit. We have eternal life in Christ because God gives us a spiritual rebirth. It's how we are set free from bondage to sin. Thirdly, people are born spiritually dead, not "dying." In the unregenerate state, people are "dead in their transgressions and sin" (Eph. 2), and are "by nature children of wrath." Only when a person is regenerated, where God raises them up and seats them in the heavenly places in Christ (by grace are we saved), that a person is released from the spiritual state of slavery to sin. The most basic sin, of course, is not believing that Jesus is the Messiah. That sin is not caused by mortality, but by the natural hostility to God's will, which is the sinful nature.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

I don't agree with your premise. Mortality does not cause sin. The Bible says "the wages of sin is death," so death is the result of sin, not the cause. Sin is the cause of death, not the effect. Also, sin is part of the spiritual nature of unregenerate man. If it weren't, people would not need to be born of the Spirit. We have eternal life in Christ because God gives us a spiritual rebirth. It's how we are set free from bondage to sin. Thirdly, people are born spiritually dead, not "dying." In the unregenerate state, people are "dead in their transgressions and sin" (Eph. 2), and are "by nature children of wrath." Only when a person is regenerated, where God raises them up and seats them in the heavenly places in Christ (by grace are we saved), that a person is released from the spiritual state of slavery to sin. The most basic sin, of course, is not believing that Jesus is the Messiah. That sin is not caused by mortality, but by the natural hostility to God's will, which is the sinful nature.

You said:

I don't agree with your premise. Mortality does not cause sin. The Bible says "the wages of sin is death," so death is the result of sin, not the cause.

My response:

Romans 5 directly states that death entered the world through sin. The sin of our first parents made them MORTAL and because they were made mortal, mortality (death) passed onto us. And because of sin, we die, thus there is a vicious circle that mankind is trapped within. Yet, also, Romans 5:14 explains that even those who have not sinned inherit death from Adam. Here I have established that all die because of the sin of Adam. We have been made mortal through the sin of our first parents. Now I will establish that all with RESURRECT through Christ.
In John 5:28-29 The Lord Jesus Himself plainly states that ALL MANKIND will resurrect from the dead. Those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of damnation.
So, we all die through Adam and we all rise through Christ.
Now, as for sin itself. If your interpretation of the verses you referenced is correct, then Jesus Incarnated into a sinful nature. If human nature itself, our spiritual state of being, is corrupt, then the Word of God took on a corrupt spiritual state of being. But, we know that even though He was TEMPTED to sin, He did not sin.
My friend, Jesus was TEMPTED to sin because He bore a MORTAL BODY. The temptation is in our FLESH, not our spirits.
Our mortality does indeed compel us to sin. Think about it. Why are we selfish? Doesn't it have to do with limited resources? You feel compelled to refrain from sharing with others, because you have to have the resources to maintain your own life; and then, this temptation to disregard the welfare of your brother becomes inflated the more times that you are selfish and the more that you allow yourself to be corrupted through selfishness, the greedier you become. Sin therefore, leads to more sin; but the root cause is the fallen world, subjected to death, in which we are forced to live.
That is why we are CAPTIVES to sin and death. Christ came to "set the captives free" and the way He did that was to DIE AND RISE AGAIN.
God became man, and in so doing fused human nature unto Himself. He then died, and human nature died with Him. When He rose, human nature rose with Him. This is what Baptism MYSTICALLY represents. IOW, spiritually, we are joined with Him in death and rise with Him to life, in Baptism. Even so, this applies to ALL MEN regardless of pour entrance to the Church; but our regeneration happens with our Baptism into the Church. This is a MYSTERY of God. That is why, in the Eastern Church, the Sacraments are known as MYSTERIES. The regeneration you are pointing to is this regeneration that occurs when we meet the Lord in Baptism and His Spirit enlivens us to His Spiritual Life in the Church.
If you will look at a Holy Icon of the Resurrection, you will see Jesus pulling two people out of coffins to either side of Him. One is a man, and the other a woman. These are Adam and Eve. During the Harrowing of Hell (when Jesus descended into Hades and emptied it) the first whom He took, were Adam and Eve. He saved them from DEATH. Death could no longer hold them, because death could no longer hold JESUS.
Christ is among us, now and ever and unto ages of ages, amen!

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Its part of the topic and sin nature.

Let me rephrase.

Was Mary born sinless?

Greetings,
It is interesting to note that the question of mankind's spiritual nature being inherently sinful started with St. Augustine and his polemic against Pelagius. In the West, only the work of St. Augustine was read during the middle ages, and that was because it had been written in Latin. The work of St. John Cassian (also against Pelagius) was forgotten in the West. St. Augustine began the idea that mankind's spiritual state was actually corrupt. His idea was not as extreme as it became within Calvinism many centuries later, but it is what led to that doctrine.
In any case, the way this ties to Mary is that the Catholic Church, having accepted what Augustine said, had to figure out a way to keep Christ from having a corrupted and sinful human nature. They also taught that Mary was sinless, so she also had to be rationalized as having an uncorrupted nature. Thus, they came up with the Immaculate Conception doctrine which gave Mary the benefit of having been born without a sinful nature, and by extension, also Jesus.
The Eastern Church has always rejected the Doctrine of Immaculate Conception because4 the Eastern Churches have always rejected the idea that mankind's spiritual nature, itself, is corrupt. IOWs, there has never been, for two thousand years, a doctrine of "total depravity" in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Hey T

This idea, of innocence from ignorance is taught at different levels all through scripture. I believe that aside from what they were told not to do, Adam and Eve were in this state of innocence. When they sinned, they were made aware "Who told you that you were naked?". Aware of good and evil. This made them more accountable.

This idea, in a smaller context, can be seen when Paul tells us...I'll use his words...

Romans 7:7-11 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.

Also, in judging others in something, we are giving evidence that we know it's sin, and "knowing" this makes us accountable to God if we are also guilty of doing that same sin...

Matthew 7:1-2 "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

The Salvation of Babies Who Die, Part 1

Some of you who tuned in to The Larry King Show a week ago Saturday will remember that Larry fired a question to me on the air that came out of nowhere, a question that reveals a nagging,

www.gty.org

The Salvation of Babies Who Die, Part 2

This is Part Two of a subject that I began last Sunday night, “The Salvation of Babies Who Die.” I’m very thankful and gratified for the response that I have received to Part One. Last Sund

www.gty.org

Dave

Dave,
All of this makes more sense if we recognize that it is mortality that drives us to sin. Because we are mortal, we are driven to commit sin, even if we do not understand it is sin. But once we are enlightened that it is sin, we are morally responsible for it.

 

[electedbyHim]

Greetings,
It is interesting to note that the question of mankind's spiritual nature being inherently sinful started with St. Augustine and his polemic against Pelagius. In the West, only the work of St. Augustine was read during the middle ages, and that was because it had been written in Latin. The work of St. John Cassian (also against Pelagius) was forgotten in the West. St. Augustine began the idea that mankind's spiritual state was actually corrupt. His idea was not as extreme as it became within Calvinism many centuries later, but it is what led to that doctrine.
In any case, the way this ties to Mary is that the Catholic Church, having accepted what Augustine said, had to figure out a way to keep Christ from having a corrupted and sinful human nature. They also taught that Mary was sinless, so she also had to be rationalized as having an uncorrupted nature. Thus, they came up with the Immaculate Conception doctrine which gave Mary the benefit of having been born without a sinful nature, and by extension, also Jesus.
The Eastern Church has always rejected the Doctrine of Immaculate Conception because4 the Eastern Churches have always rejected the idea that mankind's spiritual nature, itself, is corrupt. IOWs, there has never been, for two thousand years, a doctrine of "total depravity" in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

there has never been, for two thousand years, a doctrine of "total depravity" in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

That may be true.

However, Total Depravity is taught in the Bible, the Old and New Testamants.

So I will stick to that and not the eastern orthodox church.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

That may be true.

However, Total Depravity is taught in the Bible, the Old and New Testamants.

So I will stick to that and not the eastern orthodox church.

I disagree. I see no "total depravity" in the Bible.
Furthermore, why would that not have been seen before Calvin, if it was really there?

 

[electedbyHim]

I disagree. I see no "total depravity" in the Bible.
Furthermore, why would that not have been seen before Calvin, if it was really there?

Its there, perhaps you do not want to see it.

Do you think humans are born basically good?

 

[Dave...]

Jesus was born of Mary. If she had a sin nature, then so would He. Thus, this view of the Fall of Man and what it means has the Lord Incarnation into a nature of sin.

Hey D

You are disregarding the fact that the sin nature is passed down through man. Adam, while not the first to sin, was representing the 'headship' of himself and Eve. That's why it's passed down through Him. Mary had a sin nature, but could not pass it down. Only Joseph could have.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

I disagree. I see no "total depravity" in the Bible.
Furthermore, why would that not have been seen before Calvin, if it was really there?

Hey D

Are you a good tree, or a bad tree?

The good fruit comes from the Holy Spirit. The bad fruit, from your flesh. A bad tree cannot bear good fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit. That's total depravity. Alistair Begg summed it up very well when he said "Anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved gift from God."

Dave.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Its there, perhaps you do not want to see it.

Do you think humans are born basically good?

Perhaps you are simply in error about what Scripture means. Or do you interpret it infallibly?
Yes, I think that we are born in the image of God. But, we are born mortal, which stains us and drives us into sin.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Hey D

You are disregarding the fact that the sin nature is passed down through man. Adam, while not the first to sin, was representing the 'headship' of himself and Eve. That's why it's passed down through Him. Mary had a sin nature, but could not pass it down. Only Joseph could have.

Dave

Mortality was passed down through Adam and Eve. We are mortal, thus we are pressured to sin by our flesh, and the fleshly world we must live within.
Nowhere in Scripture does it state that Eve's seed is somehow pure and stainless from sin. That is an interpretation.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Hey D

Are you a good tree, or a bad tree?

The good fruit comes from the Holy Spirit. The bad fruit, from your flesh. A bad tree cannot bear good fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit. That's total depravity. Alistair Begg summed it up very well when he said "Anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved gift from God."

Dave.

Again, we are stained by mortality. We are not inherently sinful. If that is the case, then God created us sinful and He also incarnated into a sinful nature.

 

[Dave...]

Death is what the Lord came to save us from. He saves mankind from mortality. Buying us back from death, through death.

D

But even the unsaved are resurrected unto judgment. If I'm understanding you correctly...if the death we are saved from is only physical, why would we need both a spiritual and physical resurrection to be made new? In other words, why the need to be born again?

Dave

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Hey D

Are you a good tree, or a bad tree?

The good fruit comes from the Holy Spirit. The bad fruit, from your flesh. A bad tree cannot bear good fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit. That's total depravity. Alistair Begg summed it up very well when he said "Anything good that comes from us for the Church is an undeserved gift from God."

Dave.

BTW, please see post 83.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

D

But even the unsaved are resurrected unto judgment. If I'm understanding you correctly...if the death we are saved from is only physical, why would we need both a spiritual and physical resurrection to be made new? In other words, why the need to be born again?

Dave

Our mortality causes us to sin. We are mired in our ceaseless battle against the flesh. Through Christ and the Power of the Holy Spirit, we overcome our that battle and participate in "Theosis" which is "to become Christlike". This is our regeneration. We participate in God's Holy Energies "Love, Joy, Peace..etc.." which He extends to us through His Holy Spirit.

 

[Dave...]

Nowhere in Scripture does it state that Eve's seed is somehow pure and stainless from sin. That is an interpretation.

If you believe scripture, then you know this sinful nature is passed down through man. This Biblical truth doesn't rely on Eve's purity. The scripture has been posted already.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

Our mortality causes us to sin.

Our sin causes our mortality. It started with Adam. And this sin separates us from God. Think of it like this. After Adam, every person born of a biological father is born a bad tree. That's everyone but Jesus. When we are born we get a pass due to ignorance, but eventually grow into this state of accountability.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

Our mortality causes us to sin. We are mired in our ceaseless battle against the flesh. Through Christ and the Power of the Holy Spirit, we overcome our that battle and participate in "Theosis" which is "to become Christlike". This is our regeneration. We participate in God's Holy Energies "Love, Joy, Peace..etc.." which He extends to us through His Holy Spirit.

I guess my point was, if all our sin is caused from the mortality, wouldn't a physical resurrection fix everything?

Why the Spiritual resurrection?

Dave

 

[Free]

Jesus was born of Mary. If she had a sin nature, then so would He. Thus, this view of the Fall of Man and what it means has the Lord Incarnation into a nature of sin.

Then there would be a lot of people without a sin nature. Both of Mary's parents would have to be without a sin nature, and then each of those parents' parents, and so on.