Mary was born with a sinful nature.

[electedbyHim]

Perhaps you are simply in error about what Scripture means. Or do you interpret it infallibly?
Yes, I think that we are born in the image of God. But, we are born mortal, which stains us and drives us into sin.

How do you interpret this verse.

Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can know it?

That is only one of many.

 

[electedbyHim]

Perhaps you are simply in error about what Scripture means. Or do you interpret it infallibly?
Yes, I think that we are born in the image of God. But, we are born mortal, which stains us and drives us into sin.

So humans are born sinless?

Please clarify.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

If you believe scripture, then you know this sinful nature is passed down through man. This Biblical truth doesn't rely on Eve's purity. The scripture has been posted already.

Dave

Sorry to misunderstand, but what you seem to be saying here is that any human woman's seed is incorrupt until it is fertilized by a human male.
I do not find such a concept anywhere in Scripture. Nor in any Sacred Tradition of the Apostolic Kerygma.

 

[tdidymas]

You said:

I don't agree with your premise. Mortality does not cause sin. The Bible says "the wages of sin is death," so death is the result of sin, not the cause.

My response:

Romans 5 directly states that death entered the world through sin. The sin of our first parents made them MORTAL and because they were made mortal, mortality (death) passed onto us. And because of sin, we die, thus there is a vicious circle that mankind is trapped within. Yet, also, Romans 5:14 explains that even those who have not sinned inherit death from Adam. Here I have established that all die because of the sin of Adam. We have been made mortal through the sin of our first parents. Now I will establish that all with RESURRECT through Christ.
In John 5:28-29 The Lord Jesus Himself plainly states that ALL MANKIND will resurrect from the dead. Those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of damnation.
So, we all die through Adam and we all rise through Christ.

So far, so good

Now, as for sin itself. If your interpretation of the verses you referenced is correct, then Jesus Incarnated into a sinful nature.

False conclusion. I already stated previously that human nature is not sinful in itself, but here you appear to not make any distinction between human nature and sinful nature. I disagree with you. Adam incurred the sinful nature when he sinned, and it was "spread to all men," IOW, all Adam's posterity inherited the sinful nature, which is corrupted human nature. But Jesus did not have a corrupted human nature. His human nature was like Adam's before his fall, because Jesus did not have a human father.

If human nature itself, our spiritual state of being, is corrupt, then the Word of God took on a corrupt spiritual state of being. But, we know that even though He was TEMPTED to sin, He did not sin.

Incorrect logic, since Jesus is the son of God, not the son of a man.

My friend, Jesus was TEMPTED to sin because He bore a MORTAL BODY. The temptation is in our FLESH, not our spirits.

More illogic, since Jesus said "if the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed." Heb. 12:23 says "spirits of righteous men made perfect" - so what is saved as a past event is the spirit of man. The fact that unregenerate man lacks the indwelling Holy Spirit is what makes his spirit corrupt. Therefore, the sinful nature is rooted in the spirit, and manifested in the flesh. The fact that our minds must be transformed (Rom. 12:1-2) shows that sin is indeed in the flesh and the fleshly mind, but this is said to Christians after their spirits have been freed from sin (i.e. the sinful nature).

Our mortality does indeed compel us to sin. Think about it. Why are we selfish? Doesn't it have to do with limited resources? You feel compelled to refrain from sharing with others, because you have to have the resources to maintain your own life; and then, this temptation to disregard the welfare of your brother becomes inflated the more times that you are selfish and the more that you allow yourself to be corrupted through selfishness, the greedier you become. Sin therefore, leads to more sin; but the root cause is the fallen world, subjected to death, in which we are forced to live.

I disagree that the root cause of a Christian sinning is that he is forced to live in a fallen world. It seems to me this is just an excuse to commit sins. The fallen world we live in is an obstacle to righteous behavior, so that challenges us to live by faith. How can faith be manifested unless there is an obstacle to it? In the same way, it is in crisis that love shines the most. It is in the face of evil that faith shines the most. We are overcomers by faith (1 John 5:4). This means that the indwelling Spirit sets us free from the root cause of sin which is a spiritual problem. So what we have to deal with after conversion is trusting God to heal us from our sinful habits, which is the progressive sanctification of the soul.

That is why we are CAPTIVES to sin and death. Christ came to "set the captives free" and the way He did that was to DIE AND RISE AGAIN.
God became man, and in so doing fused human nature unto Himself. He then died, and human nature died with Him. When He rose, human nature rose with Him. This is what Baptism MYSTICALLY represents. IOW, spiritually, we are joined with Him in death and rise with Him to life, in Baptism. Even so, this applies to ALL MEN regardless of pour entrance to the Church; but our regeneration happens with our Baptism into the Church. This is a MYSTERY of God. That is why, in the Eastern Church, the Sacraments are known as MYSTERIES. The regeneration you are pointing to is this regeneration that occurs when we meet the Lord in Baptism and His Spirit enlivens us to His Spiritual Life in the Church.
If you will look at a Holy Icon of the Resurrection, you will see Jesus pulling two people out of coffins to either side of Him. One is a man, and the other a woman. These are Adam and Eve. During the Harrowing of Hell (when Jesus descended into Hades and emptied it) the first whom He took, were Adam and Eve. He saved them from DEATH. Death could no longer hold them, because death could no longer hold JESUS.
Christ is among us, now and ever and unto ages of ages, amen!

Some of your conclusions are wrong, as I have detailed above.
But now I understand where you're coming from. I do not believe in some of the Orthodox doctrines because I deem them to be unbiblical. I don't take any stock in doctrines that are made up by Christians in the past, that they have invented based on their experiences or interpretations. I believe in what the Bible says, not what some monk wrote hundreds of years ago.

So if you can't agree with the responses I wrote, then I'll be done with this conversation.

 

[Dave...]

Sorry to misunderstand, but what you seem to be saying here is that any human woman's seed is incorrupt until it is fertilized by a human male.
I do not find such a concept anywhere in Scripture. Nor in any Sacred Tradition of the Apostolic Kerygma.

Not incorrupt, but unable to pass on that corruption. It is the man that makes that transfer of corruption possible. Think of it like this. A woman and man are both corrupt. But that corruption is passed down through man, not woman.

Dave

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Our sin causes our mortality. It started with Adam. And this sin separates us from God. Think of it like this. After Adam, every person born of a biological father is born a bad tree. That's everyone but Jesus. When we are born we get a pass due to ignorance, but eventually grow into this state of accountability.

Dave

No, sorry, Roman's 5 is clear that the first sin caused death and that this mortal state was passed to us by physical inheritance.
And how could we get a "pass" if we are inherently evil? Is our nature not evil even at birth? Or does that somehow change at the age of accountability? Iow, total depravity till age twelve and then, all of a sudden, our human nature changes to totally evil?

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

So far, so good

False conclusion. I already stated previously that human nature is not sinful in itself, but here you appear to not make any distinction between human nature and sinful nature. I disagree with you. Adam incurred the sinful nature when he sinned, and it was "spread to all men," IOW, all Adam's posterity inherited the sinful nature, which is corrupted human nature. But Jesus did not have a corrupted human nature. His human nature was like Adam's before his fall, because Jesus did not have a human father.

Incorrect logic, since Jesus is the son of God, not the son of a man.

More illogic, since Jesus said "if the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed." Heb. 12:23 says "spirits of righteous men made perfect" - so what is saved as a past event is the spirit of man. The fact that unregenerate man lacks the indwelling Holy Spirit is what makes his spirit corrupt. Therefore, the sinful nature is rooted in the spirit, and manifested in the flesh. The fact that our minds must be transformed (Rom. 12:1-2) shows that sin is indeed in the flesh and the fleshly mind, but this is said to Christians after their spirits have been freed from sin (i.e. the sinful nature).

I disagree that the root cause of a Christian sinning is that he is forced to live in a fallen world. It seems to me this is just an excuse to commit sins. The fallen world we live in is an obstacle to righteous behavior, so that challenges us to live by faith. How can faith be manifested unless there is an obstacle to it? In the same way, it is in crisis that love shines the most. It is in the face of evil that faith shines the most. We are overcomers by faith (1 John 5:4). This means that the indwelling Spirit sets us free from the root cause of sin which is a spiritual problem. So what we have to deal with after conversion is trusting God to heal us from our sinful habits, which is the progressive sanctification of the soul.

Some of your conclusions are wrong, as I have detailed above.
But now I understand where you're coming from. I do not believe in some of the Orthodox doctrines because I deem them to be unbiblical. I don't take any stock in doctrines that are made up by Christians in the past, that they have invented based on their experiences or interpretations. I believe in what the Bible says, not what some monk wrote hundreds of years ago.

So if you can't agree with the responses I wrote, then I'll be done with this conversation.

You had stated:

I already stated previously that human nature is not sinful in itself, but here you appear to not make any distinction between human nature and sinful nature.

My response:
Thank you for your response. I will have to apologize here because I thought you were saying that human nature in and of itself was inherently flawed and sinful. That is what I was arguing against. Thus, I guess I was arguing against a straw-man I will read your post here and try to understand the distinction you are making between human nature and a sinful nature and get back to you soon.
Christ is amongst us. Now and ever and unto ages of ages amen.

 

[Dave...]

No, sorry, Roman's 5 is clear that the first sin caused death and that this mortal state was passed to us by physical inheritance.

Our mortality causes us to sin.

Hey D

You are claiming that the first sin causes our mortality, but it is our mortality is what makes us sin? Which is it?

I don't like the term mortality. We are not vampires here. It's not that simple. Spiritually we experience death from being separated from God. Physically, we experience corruption as a result of sin. That corruption results in death. The penalty for sin is death. It's both judicial, and the natural corruption that decays, and spiritual. Apart from God "separate", we cannot produce anything good. Adam and Eve were with God. But they were not God. They didn't have sin, but where capable of sinning all along. God protected them by keeping them in a state of ignorance, which made them innocent. When God grace gives a person faith in Jesus, the result of that spiritual immersion by Jesus with the Holy Spirit restores our peace with God. We are now once again capable of doing good again (Gods Spirit), and also capable of sinning still (the flesh). At the end everyone is resurrected. Some unto life, some unto judgment. This is why I don't like the term mortal. Just say death.

Jesus said it. Only God is good. Do you believe it? He also said that without Him, we can do nothing. Nothin good implied. Do you believe it? If any good comes from you, it's from God. Separated from God it is impossible for us to do good. That spiritual death seems to be missing from your equations.

Dave

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Then there would be a lot of people without a sin nature. Both of Mary's parents would have to be without a sin nature, and then each of those parents' parents, and so on.

That is just it. The Church never taught that man's essence is sinful.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Hey D

You are claiming that the first sin causes our mortality, but it is our mortality is what makes us sin? Which is it?

I don't like the term mortality. We are not vampires here. It's not that simple. Spiritually we experience death from being separated from God. Physically, we experience corruption as a result of sin. That corruption results in death. The penalty for sin is death. It's both judicial, and the natural corruption that decays, and spiritual. Apart from God "separate", we cannot produce anything good. Adam and Eve were with God. But they were not God. They didn't have sin, but where capable of sinning all along. God protected them by keeping them in a state of ignorance, which made them innocent. When God grace gives a person faith in Jesus, the result of that spiritual immersion by Jesus with the Holy Spirit restores our peace with God. We are now once again capable of doing good again (Gods Spirit), and also capable of sinning still (the flesh). At the end everyone is resurrected. Some unto life, some unto judgment. This is why I don't like the term mortal. Just say death.

Jesus said it. Only God is good. Do you believe it? He also said that without Him, we can do nothing. Nothin good implied. Do you believe it? If any good comes from you, it's from God. Separated from God it is impossible for us to do good. That spiritual death seems to be missing from your equations.

Dave

As you say, good only comes from God so if we are spiritually separated from Him we cannot perform good. If we are not hearing His Voice or resisting His Voice within us, we cannot do good.
What I am saying is that our environment of death and decay pressures us to reject His Voice.
Our first parents sinned and because of that we are all subjected to a fallen world and thus, we sin and incur death. It is a vicious cycle.
And the death is not "judicial". It is simply the consequences of the Fall.
Christ paid tye consequence for us so that we all.may be lifted our of that consequence. That is why all resurrect. Even Ted Bundy will resurrect.
Do you agree?

 

[Free]

That is just it. The Church never taught that man's essence is sinful.

Then they must have never taught that all men sin, that it is inevitable and from a very young age. It has already been pointed out that young children do not need to be taught to sin, to be selfish or lie, for example, but they do need to be taught to not sin. All men sin because it is their nature to do so, just as it is God's nature to never sin.

Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, (ESV)

We sin because our natures are not what God initially created them to be, they are fallen and produce in us the desire to sin. Apart from God, we cannot not sin, and the only reasonable explanation is that something is wrong with our nature.

 

[Dyonisius the Areopagite]

Then they must have never taught that all men sin, that it is inevitable and from a very young age. It has already been pointed out that young children do not need to be taught to sin, to be selfish or lie, for example, but they do need to be taught to not sin. All men sin because it is their nature to do so, just as it is God's nature to never sin.

Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, (ESV)

We sin because our natures are not what God initially created them to be, they are fallen and produce in us the desire to sin. Apart from God, we cannot not sin, and the only reasonable explanation is that something is wrong with our nature.

Please consider the fact that I said the Church never taught that the ESSENCE of Man is inherentl sinful. The Church has taught from the Apostles onwards that sin is a SICKNESS thar we are subject to because the inheritance of death and a corrupt and fallen world which affects of fleshly nature's. It is not inherent to our spiritual essence. Otherwise, God would have taken onto Himself a corrupt essence when He Incarnated.
The idea that the very essence of mankind is inherently damned is a doctrine peculiar to western Christianity and never was a part of the Eastern Churches.
The whole reason that the Catholics came up with Limbo was a way to deal with the idea that a human baby is born destined to hell just by stint of being born a human being. Again, that concept is foreign to the Apostolic Church of the East.

 

[Free]

Please consider the fact that I said the Church never taught that the ESSENCE of Man is inherentl sinful. The Church has taught from the Apostles onwards that sin is a SICKNESS thar we are subject to because the inheritance of death and a corrupt and fallen world which affects of fleshly nature's. It is not inherent to our spiritual essence. Otherwise, God would have taken onto Himself a corrupt essence when He Incarnated.
The idea that the very essence of mankind is inherently damned is a doctrine peculiar to western Christianity and never was a part of the Eastern Churches.

So, what is Paul speaking of in these verses?

2Co 4:16 So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. (ESV)

What is this "inner self" and why is it necessary for it to be "renewed"?

Col 3:9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices
Col 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. (ESV)

What is the "old self" that needs to be "put off"?

 

[Dave...]

What I am saying is that our environment of death and decay pressures us to reject His Voice.

The environment of death and decay is also in us. For a fallen person, that's all they have. That will always result in a natural rejection of God. That is, until God intervenes.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

And the death is not "judicial". It is simply the consequences of the Fall.

Actually it is. Though there is a physical element to it.

Christ paid tye consequence for us so that we all.may be lifted our of that consequence. That is why all resurrect. Even Ted Bundy will resurrect.
Do you agree?

1 John 5:11-12 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Eph 2:4-5 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Dave