If the pure in heart shall see god...

[ezrider]

ROTFL You are not serious with this statement are you ?

Blue girl all I am going to say is you really need to spend more time reading your bible

perhaps you could clue her in...

Why the need for such arrogance and contempt, as if you have all the answers yourself? And yet the arrogant and prideful tongue imparts no wisdom at all! As a true Christian formed in the image of Christ, we ought to build up one another in the faith rather than tearing them down. I see your fruit and it appears at the moment to be quite rotten.

 

[LovethroughDove]

There is no literal statement in the bible that Jesus went to hell. It never happened.

I believe this says it. Ephesians 4:9 (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?

Now, here is where the NDE experience comes in. When people are taken to hell, they descend into the earth. It is a moot point if you don't connect scripture with NDEs. Oh, just had a light bulb moment..... Jesus wasn't buried (he was in a tomb), so his body wasn't in the earth....it must have been descending somewhere else?

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

bluegirl,
Relax would you...
I will give you a couple of scriptures.........the rest is up to you to find....
Luke 23:46 KJV
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, He said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said this, He GAVE UP THE GHOST.

THIS SHOULD SHOW YOU THAT I AM NOT BLOWING SMOKE
I at first thought you were just messing with me. Here is another....Revelation 1:18 I am He that liveth, and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen and have the keys of hell and death.

Now try this.....
Matthew 12:40 ..For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whales belly; so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

I hope this helps you in your searching...

 

[bluegirl]

bluegirl,
Relax would you...
I will give you a couple of scriptures.........the rest is up to you to find....
Luke 23:46 KJV
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, He said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said this, He GAVE UP THE GHOST.

THIS SHOULD SHOW YOU THAT I AM NOT BLOWING SMOKE
I at first thought you were just messing with me. Here is another....Revelation 1:18 I am He that liveth, and was dead; and behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen and have the keys of hell and death.

Now try this.....
Matthew 12:40 ..For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whales belly; so shall the son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

I hope this helps you in your searching...

Thank you but anyway I guess those lines don't really answer it at all. And I am not searching. I am certain that God is always God, Jesus was not in hell, and, last, never died a spiritual death. Because it is not in scripture.

 

[ezrider]

I will stop immediately once I see the verses. If it is there I will read it and immediately know I was in error. But since others know scripture better than I, I sure hope the three issues could be resolved easily by showing me lines of scripture.

I think the one that people refer to when they say Jesus went to hell might be the following scripture, but I am not sure, and it seems the ones that are challenging you don't know either.

1 Peter 3:19-18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I would pray the Lord scare the heck out of her in relation to those experiences so she fears letting it happen ever again. Seriously so many new agers think it's a walk through a tulip garden and do not see it endangers their very existence, their very being.

The whole experience almost changed her completely. She was turning into another person, and I felt like she was shutting everyone out that truly loves her. I thank God everyday that she is seeing the true light shining. 1 John 2:9-10 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble.

 

[bluegirl]

I think the one that people refer to when they say Jesus went to hell might be the following scripture, but I am not sure, and it seems the ones that are challenging you don't know either.

1 Peter 3:19-18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

But this does not say he died and went to hell.

 

[bluegirl]

Preaching unto spirits in prison is not the same as being in prison.

I guess that there is no scripture to clarify those points ?

 

[ezrider]

But this does not say he died and went to hell.

I agree with you. It does not. But I have heard that scripture referenced before by those who attempt to claim Jesus went to hell to preach to the prisoners there. Not saying their assertion is correct, only pointing out the scripture they use.

 

[bluegirl]

I agree with you. It does not. But I have heard that scripture referenced before by those who attempt to claim Jesus went to hell to preach to the prisoners there. Not saying their assertion is correct, only pointing out the scripture they use.

Ok I see your point, that they use that. But as there is no scripture on the three points I have to continue to believe that God was and is always God with no interruptions; that Jesus never ceased to be God; that Jesus never suffered hell at his death; that Jesus never died spiritually, only physically. If there is scripture I will believe otherwise once I read it.
Question: why would Jesus minister in hell anyway? That implies one could leave hell.

 

[Cturtle]

Jesus even as a man was God and knew it and he is God. His physical body died. At no moment did he cease to be God and spiritually die, which would mean he would suffer from sin. He died for OUR sin but did not himself sin. He never died spiritually.

In reading Philippians 2:5-8 it says that Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
In John 19:30 " when Jesus had received the drink, Jesus said, "it is finished" with that He bowed His head and gave up His spirit" ****this says that He gave up His spirit*** where did it go?
1 Peter 2:24 "who His own self bare our sins In His Own Body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness.
now may i ask how could Jesus bare in His body OUR sins, (not His) and have the Father look at Him? Or could He still be God with OUR sins being bore IN His body.
Revelations 1:18 says that Jesus was dead, and behold He is alive forever and ever! And He holds thr keys to death and hell.....now how did He get those keys? Why does it say He was dead and now is alive forever?
May the wisdom of our Lord richly be made known unto you!

 

[bluegirl]

I like what you cited and I will respond more tomorrow. But those verses do not address the three points. Taking human likeness does not equate with ceasing to be God. Having keys to hell does not equate with being in hell. We often speak of the spirit departing the body. That is not the same as spiritual death. To depart is not to die. When my soul departs my body it will not die.

 

[bluegirl]

As it stands there are no biblical passages that have been found for the points mentioned. Because the passages don't exist. I do not need to soul search for what is not there in the bible. If it is not there it is a false teaching.

 

[Cturtle]

I like what you cited and I will respond more tomorrow. But those verses do not address the three points. Taking human likeness does not equate with ceasing to be God. Having keys to hell does not equate with being in hell. We often speak of the spirit departing the body. That is not the same as spiritual death. To depart is not to die. When my soul departs my body it will not die.

may your prayers be profitable and i hope you will ask the Father for revelation knowledge. Blessings

 

[Cturtle]

Something to remember, Jesus did not receive the Holy Spirit till He was baptized by John the baptist. And up until then He was only human, meaning that He had no power. Many verses in the Bible let us know that Jesus did not have any power of His own, but that the Father that dwelt within Him did the work. He made the choice to obey the Father.

 

[Karl]

Hi Karl,
I pray that your day has been a peaceful one and that you indeed have found some rest in Christ as well.

Ok I am going to give you the scripture you asked for and also going to add some understanding in this topic that I have gained over the years as well. Kind of as painting a picture of what I am talking about. What you do with it is up to you. I mean you can pray about this and seek revelation knowledge on this and look it all up and study it as I know you enjoy doing or just dismiss it. Either way it's simply up to you brother.....I am settled !!

In fact Karl I am going to back it up just a bit and start at the point where Jesus was separated from God by spiritual death. I will also use the number system way of doing things such as 1 for the first scripture reference and 2 for the next and so forth. I will also write the scripture with it's number at the end and also write out each scripture in a few translations...

I am saying all this for one reason....I do not want any confusion on what I am writing and saying to you or rather how I am doing this...Confusion seems to find it's self in this forum when others chime in some place and post "their" thoughts or views from their own understanding and things begin to get twisted some what....

I am not applying this directly to you brother, but simply explaining why I am taking this approach and explaining it all out to you. I have seen it so many times where several get to going back and forth about something and the both of them are saying the very same things but with different wording. You know Toe May Toe vs Toe mought Toe type of thing.....;)

Ok so here we go...
I start this at the point where Jesus had been separated from God by spiritual death and the sin of man kind that Jesus took upon Himself on OUR behalf, this is when God said "Again, I will be to Him a Father , and He shall be to me a Son."

This is when the Power Of God RESURRECTED JESUS spirit in the pit of hell and He was Born Again that He became "the first begotten of the dead" ( 1 )

At that very moment Jesus was brought to live brother, by God's words of dominion. God called JESUS SON and brother He "ROCKED" this universe with that command...( Jesus is our rock ) "Let all the angels worship Him!
By saying this...EVERY Angel including satan himself FELL to Jesus feet..
They truly did not want to or LIKE this BUT they had to do it any way.

Every single dirty, filthy, perverse demon, principality and cohorts sank to their knee's in the presence as the spirit of Jesus was repowered or regenerated by the Power of God's very word.

It was at this place BROTHER that the entire demonic group, gang or gathering had a very rude awakening, see they thought Jesus was beat, defeated and forever lost unto them. From the moment they saw His crippled, deformed body, riddled with every ones sin from adam to the last sinning man on this earth, they thought they had won and were about to glory in their so called victory.....OOOPS that is until God breathed life back into Jesus or power which ever one you like.

Can you imagine this brother, there He is, Jesus standing there like a mighty tower, LOOKING like God almighty Himself and speaking with God's own voice and His eyes blazing with His glory, and highly exalted by given the NAME that is above every name:

That at the name of Jesus every Knee should bow, of things in heaven and things in earth and things under the earth and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ IS LORD, to the glory of God the Father...Philippians 2: 10-11

Ok Karl now here comes the Awesome Fight, that Glorious and ALL VICTORIOUS fight that bought our freedom and gave us victory over death through the Blood of Christ Jesus.....

You have to picture this through a good study of this which I know you enjoy doing.... Any way it was at this time that Jesus started kicking demonic butts if you will, Jesus went into combat mode or made war behind the gates of hell and WON EVERY fight. He defeated every demon and every principality and every power.

Then "having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it." (2)

Jesus put the devil and his defeated forces on public display. Now again you have to study a little but the New Testament terminology compares this or liken this to ....how the roman army paraded their conquered foes through the streets of Rome. While crowds cheered in victory, vanquished kings and military leaders became spectacles as they were marched through the city as prisoners, bound with chains and with yokes around their necks. Just like the devil had done and tries to do today to the believer or people in general.
They displayed them as trophies of the conquered. Even like David running through goliaths home town as he held goliaths head parading it around like a trophy.....

See Jesus basically did the same thing to the devil. After the battle was won and Jesus stripped satin and took the keys of death and hell away from him, Jesus paraded the devil down the avenues of hell in full view....I have heard it taught that the great cloud of witnesses, Those precious old testament saints were watching this all take place in the place that the bible calls paradise.. In fact I have sat through several teachings that spoke of this.

I hope I can find my old bibles with all the study notes and such and make a modern day study of this or a thread or something. I have always been amazed with in all of this.....any way Karl that is what I was referring to and now for the scriptures used and you asked for...

Starting with reference

(1) Revelation 1:5-6

KJV... And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the "first begotten of the dead", and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood ..
6.. And hath made us kings and priest unto God and His Father: to Him be glory and dominion for ever and ever Amen.

NLT.....and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness to these things, the First to Rise from the dead, and the commander of all the rulers of this world.
All praise to Him that loves us and has freed us from our sins by shedding His blood for us.
6.... He has made us His Kingdom and His priest who serve before God His Father. Give to Him everlasting glory ! He rules forever and ever...Amen

(2) Colossians 2 :15

KJV.......And having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

NLT....15..In this way, God disarmed the evil rulers and authorities. He shamed them publicly by His victory over them on the cross of Christ.

AMP...15.. [God] disarmed the principalities and powers that were ranged against us and made a bold display and public example of them, in triumphing over them in Him and in it [the cross]

Hebrews 2: 14-15
KJV.....14. For as much then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself like wise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is the devil;
15. And deliver them who through fear and death were all their life time subject to bondage.

NLT....14. Because God's children are human beings-made of flesh and blood-Jesus also became flesh and blood by being born in human form. For only as a human being could He die, and only by dying could He break the power of the devil, who had the power of death.
15. Only in this way could He deliver those who have lived all their lives as slaves to the fear of dying.

Well I hope this answers your question Karl !
Have a great week Brother
Jim

Jim,

Thank you for your response, however it's after midnight in Tahiti and my day will start in 4 1/2 hours, I'll get back to you tonight.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Karl Hi,
No problem and have a great day

 

[Karl]

But since you give no verses then ad hominem attacks on me are the only thing left.

Anyone ? The following three verses?

That Jesus was in hell?
That Jesus suffered a spiritual death?
That jesus at any moment ceased being God?

Beloved, calm down, take a deep breath........,

1. Jesus did go to Hell when His physical body died, Hell then was divided into two compartments called Abraham's bosom or paradise (the good side where those that died trusting in the coming Messiah went) and a place of torments (the bad side were those that didn't trust in the coming Messiah went), when Jesus left His human body He took the believing thief with Him to Paradise, the good side of Hell. Luke 23:42

2. Of course not, God is a Spirit and spirits don't ever die (it's too late for me to look up the references). John 1:1, 14

3. Never, God can't die, when Jesus said, "Father into your hand I commend My Spirit," He had to do that so that His physical body could die, if He hadn't said that then He would still be hanging on the Cross today. Jesus is the author of life, how can the author of life die? Also, because He was God in the Flesh no one could stay sick and or dead around Him, everyone that came near Him was healed (with one recorded exception), we know this because John tells us if all of the things Jesus did were written in books the world would not be big enough to contain them. John 21:25

Blessings sis

 

[bluegirl]

Thank you Karl. I went to the carm website to read a bit on this and I see that you are right. I was wrong on the first point and I apologize for that Jim. Jesus never suffered hell but I can see that he went somewhere, where spirits are, Abraham's bosom, etc., after his bodily death. On the other two points I have found passages on my own and see that of course Jesus never died spiritually and of course he never ceased to be God. Sorry I am such a pain. I had no idea these were controversies and I hope everyone can forgive me.
Here are the links that helped me sort it all out this morning. I appreciate everyone's patience with me.
https://carm.org/did-jesus-stop-being-son-of-god-when-forsaken-on-the-cross
https://carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/where-did-jesus-go-after-he-died-cross
https://carm.org/did-jesus-die-spiritually

BTW, I have never used carm's forums but I do find their content helpful when questions pop up and as I read scripture, plus their statement of belief is the same as the one here, which is good!

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

bluegirl
Karl

Hello,
I was able to read your reply Karl to blue girl and her reply back to you this morning and I saw the direction it was going, so I thought I would try to explain what I am saying with a different approach.

To understand this and really the entire written word of God you must get away from using a natural understanding or simply rationalizing the scriptures with your own knowledge or under standing if you intend to grow in the Spirit of God or Grow your spirit man. This was not said to be directed at you but for any one who reads this....

Ok the first few chapters of Genesis settle the fact the Jesus did die spiritually. Not just physical death but spiritual death as well. If you will stick with me and read through this, I do believe you will begin to see things more in the truth of what i am saying...

I am going to show you that physical death and spiritual death is the true penalty for sin.

It is clear in Genesis 2:17 When God said to Adam in the garden of eden, "In the day that thou eatest thereof [of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil] thou shalt surely die." God was not referring to the fact that Adam would die physically as soon as he ate of the tree of good and evil. Adam lived for another 930 years.

Genesis 2:17 KJV.......But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

See the death that God was talking about is in fact "spiritual death". It is the inward death that takes place when a spiritual being is separated from God.
See That's what "Spiritual Death" is.....it is "Separation From GOD"
Think about it for a minute....Is this not what Adam experienced the moment he sinned ? Of course it is, Adam was immediately cut off from fellowship with the Father, and the light of God's life and Glory within him was snuffed out.

Ok now look at this please.....
In order for Jesus to become OUR SUBSTITUTE, He had to go through the same kind of separation. He had to die not just a physically but spiritually and descend into hell to suffer the whole penalty of sin.

Now ask your self this question and think for a moment on this question.....

1. How many deaths will an UN_Saved person suffer ?

The answer is Two....First one is physically or the body...The second one is spiritually for to be un saved you therefore are separated from God for eternity. That is how you get into hell and the only way a human being will ever get into hell is to be separated from God. Funny thing here, this is why Jesus went through all this so we would not have to...

Not only did Jesus go to hell, He sank to the deepest, darkest part of it to suffer everything that was necessary on our behalf.

Scriptures verify it again and again . They tell us that He descended into the deep or the bottomless pit before He was brought up from the dead.

Romans 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? ( that is to bring up Christ again from the dead )

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in Hell, neither His flesh did see corruption.

(( Notice it is spoken of His soul and flesh...Not one word about the Spirit of God )))

Psalm 18 which does paint a pretty detailed prophetic picture of what Jesus went through between the cross and the throne, declares. "The sorrow of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me" ( V5 )

Another point in this..........When Jesus was agonised in the Garden of Gethsemane when He said, "Father , if it be possible, let this cup pass from me....He was NOT sweating drops of blood over the fact of his body dying.
That was not the major thing He was facing.......He dreaded and felt so much sorrow was the fact that He was going to be separated from His Father and going into hell on behalf of man kind.

He knew that no man ever went into hell and got out, no man ever died spiritually and then made spiritually alive again. BUT His love for the Father and His love for us, He said this is the reason I came....Thank God !!

You have to understand that Jesus was made sin for every man kind. This meant every wicked thought and action from adams fall until God calls it done was on Jesus. Every single wicked and perverse and in human sin was on Jesus. NO HUMAN BEING has ever or could ever sin enough to carry what Jesus had on Him when He gave up the spirit.. It was the sin from adam to the end that crippled Him and deformed Him and made Him unrecognisable.

This is why Jesus had to have the spiritual death or separation from God. The Spirit of God could hold NO Sin. There is NO way in any way, shape or form that Jesus could have been made sin for us with the Spirit of God in Him.

I hope this allows you to understand what I am saying.
Have a wonderful week !!
Jim