If you believe you can lose your salvation, you are not saved!(explanation)

[FreeGrace]

One gains the promise of salvation/eternal life CONDITIONALLY and one must maintain the CONDITIONS in order to maintain the promise:

Rom 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

One must CONDITIONALLY have faith in order to have access to God's free gift of grace. Therefore one must CONDITIONALLY maintain faith in order to maintain access to God's free gift. If one casts aside his faith, then he no longer has access to Gods free gift of grace…..

The idea that one must "maintain faith in order to maintain access to God's free gift" is just man made. Totally made up fallacy. Not taught anywhere in Scripture.

Eph 4:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

This verse refutes those who claim that eternal life can be revoked. We are sealed unto the day of redemption. And there is NO EVIDENCE that we or anyone else can break that seal.

One cannot be physically "unborn again" but one can spiritually become unborn, as the prodigal son who was dead (spiritually dead/unborn) then alive AGAIN (spiritual life). He could not be spiritually alive AGAIN without having been spiritually alive before.

No, no one can become "unborn", neither physically nor spiritually. We are born spiritually separated from God (spiritual death) and we become born AGAIN through faith in Christ. And that cannot be undone because they Bible doesn't teach such a man made notion.

THe man made idea of eternal security simply does not exist in the bible.

The opposite is true; conditional security is a man made assumption. NO EVIDENCE from Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

Again you have not produced a verse that states eternal life is irrevocable.

You have stated your opinion, and tagged your opinion with 3 scripture references, as if your opinion is scripture.

The 3 verses I cited prove beyond any doubt that Paul was referring to justification and eternal life in 11:29.

And you've FAILED to prove anything else.

While denying that 'gift' in 11:29 refers to either justification or eternal life, you've proven nothing about it referring to anything else. Oh yes, you've claimed other things, but have not shown from Scripture that Paul called what you've claimed as a gift.

So, your view is just an opinion, an erroneous assumption, all with NO EVIDENCE.

Paul told us what God's gifts are before he said that they were irrevocable. You've failed to refute that.

 

[FreeGrace]

I have shown you from scripture, where James uses saved, in association with the same things as Jesus.

Where is your scriptures?


JLB

In my recent post, I showed all 5 verses.

 

[FreeGrace]

Again, in Rom 11 the Jews are in the context as having been the ones cast aside/broken off.

Where did Paul refer to any of this as a gift?

In verse 28 Paul is speaking about the Jews...the Jews are the enemies for the sake of the Gentiles...
The Jews were the enemies of the gospel for they rejected Christ and His gospel. Yet their rejection of CHrist and His gospel was for the sake of the Gentiles in that it brought the gospel to the Gentiles that much sooner.

What does any of this have to do with "God's gifts"?

but as touching the election
But concerning the election>salvation of the Jews....

they (Jews) are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

The Jews were still beloved by God for the sake of the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob)

All very nice, but there is NO MENTION of God's gifts, therefore is irrelevant to Rom 11:29.

Rom 11:29 "

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."
"For" is an explanatory preposition giving explanation to what was just said in verse 28. It explains how the Jews, even though they rejected Christ, can still be of the election/saved and are still called "beloved" as shown by God not revoking/repenting/changing His promise of gifts and calling He made to the fathers. God promised salvation to the Jews and He would not revoke it but left salvation to the Jews through Christ.

This assumes that Paul thought the "gift" was the promise of salvation, yet none of the verses in ch 11 say anything close to that. And Paul did NOT define 'gift' in that way in any chapter of Romans, or anywhere else.

"Gifts and calling" refers to the salvation to the Jews;
God's gifts includes eternal life. Rom 6:23.
Calling refers to God's calling of sinners to salvation, the gospel call, 2 Thess 2:14

God promised salvation (gifts and calling) to the fathers and God was not going to revoke what He promised (Numbers 23:19) but have that promise to the Jews fulfilled through Christ.

Total confusion here. The actual gift of God IS eternal life, not the promise of it.

If you can read the man made idea of "eternal security" into the context, then what is to stop anyone from reading whatever they choose to into the context???

Well, that is exactly what you've done to the text. There is NO EVIDENCE that Paul was referring to a promise. He was referring to eternal life; not the promise of it, as is being claimed. That idea is man made.

 

[FreeGrace]

When the bible says 'believe' you are assuming it means 'believe only'.
To assume that 'believe' means belief only creates contradictions and ignores the verses where Christ made repentance confession and baptism of equal importance and necessity to salvation. Lk 13;3,5; Matt 10:32,33; Mk 16:16.

Believe is used as a synecdoche ( a part stands for the whole) whereby believing includes doing all Christ said including repenting confession and being baptized. In 1 Pet 3:21 Peter said baptism doth also now save us. Does that mean "baptism alone" saves??? No, for baptism is being used as a synecdoche where it includes belief, repentance and confession.

As far as your request to prove belief includes baptism:
Acts 2:41 - Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:
Acts 2:44 - And all that believed were together...

Who were the ones that "believed" in v44? The ones that accepted Peter's words and were baptized or the ones that rejected Peter's words rejecting baptism? Of course the ones that "believed" are the ones that were baptized as thee you have THE BIBLE having the word BELIEVED including baptism.

Furthermore, since there is just ONE way to be saved, no alternatives, and the bible does not contradict itself, then:

Jn 3:16-------believing>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1 Pet 3:21---baptism>>>>>>>>>>>saves

... believing MUST include baptism.


Just cherry-picking out verses that mention "believing" while ignoring all other salvic verses makes for bad theology.

I've given plenty of explanation, and this post just ignores all of it rather than dealing with any of my points. Simply repeating a mantra doesn't equal truth. Not even close.

1 Pet 3:20-21 proves that water doesn't save. It kills. The 8 were saved FROM THE WATER by the ark. If not for the ark, they all would have drowned. That means died. As in not living any more. Like the rest of mankind did.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's difficult to debate with you since you seem to not follow normal debating protocol. Let's review:

1. You introduced the argument that since salvation is a gift and that since God's gifts are irrevocable, this means that salvation is "locked in" at the point of conversion.

2. Let's forget for the moment that many other texts challenge this conclusion - we will stick with your argument based on the "irrevocability of a gift.

3. I (and possibly others) challenged you on the nature of irrevocability: I pointed out that "irrevocability" only allows you to conclude that the giver will not take back the gift; it does not mean that the receiver can toss it aside.

4. You then demand that I produce Biblical evidence that a gift can be thrown away by a recipient. You wisely did not challenge me on point 3, as I suggest you know that I am in the right about this.

This is simply not fair play on your part - you made a claim, you need to support it: It is not up to me (or others) to prove what you need to prove: that the gift cannot be thrown away. You are the one who is mounting the argument based on the concept of an irrevocable gift.

What you are asking me is like you claiming that there is cat inside the closet and then expecting me to prove there is no cat inside that closet.

And to add to this, you ask for the unreasonable: you simply assume that the absence of a statement to the effect that a gift can be rejected by the recipient proves that it cannot be rejected. This is clearly not the case since there are indeed theological truths that are not supported by a direct Biblical statement. Like the Trinity, for one.

(Edited, ToW 2.4, Rudeness. Obadiah) You've provided NO evidence for your position (Edited, Obadiah).

 

[FreeGrace]

1) "MUST DO" implies salvation is by DOING and not by doing nothing.

This is a faulty argument. Paul clarified what he meant by work; that which produces a debt that is owed to the worker, from Rom 4:4. And he distinguished work from faith.

Until one grasp the truth of this, further discussion will not be fruitful.

 

[Stan1953]

Sure. Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 define justification as a gift, which we KNOW to be from God alone.
Rom 6:23 defines eternal life as a gift from God.
Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable. And, Paul defines nothing else as "gifts of God" between 6:23 and 11:29. The conclusion should be obvious, though it seems to be highly resisted by the "insecurity crowd".

Not that I saw...can you be specific about WHICH scripture say justification is a gift?
Yes, Rom 6:23 says that, but it also says "in Christ Jesus our Lord." That does NOT mean apostasy doesn't happen as Paul identifies in 2 Thess 2:1-3 (NIV). It doesn't mean if one does not faithfully use those gifts that they cannot be rebuked or instructed, as Paul also shows in Rom 12 and 14.
If I'm gifted a watch and NEVER put it on, it remains my property, but rather useless.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is pretty simple. If someone believes that, once "saved", a person can continue to have faith, yet disobey God, even in his "lifestyle" and it won't effect salvation, he believes faith that is disobedient saves.

Apparently not so simple. So I'll boil it down further. Saving faith is a moment in time action. One receives salvation, eternal life at the moment of faith. That faith IS obedient faith. After one is saved, they live their lives either in obedience or not. And that is why we have Heb 12 and the promise of discipline to the child of God (saved) who is disobedient.

 

[FreeGrace]

OK good, now how does this depict that people cannot become apostate and fall away from the faith?

I doesn't. Of course they can, because the Bible says that some have and will. But why do people equate "falling away" from loss of salvation? There is no evidence for that.

 

[FreeGrace]

Not that I saw...can you be specific about WHICH scripture say justification is a gift?

Sure. Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 all say justification is a gift.

Yes, Rom 6:23 says that, but it also says "in Christ Jesus our Lord." That does NOT mean apostasy doesn't happen as Paul identifies in 2 Thess 2:1-3 (NIV).

Keep in mind that Paul taught about how one becomes "in Christ" in Eph 1:13, which is by faith in Christ. And keep in mind from Eph 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 that believers are sealed for the day of redemption.

It doesn't mean if one does not faithfully use those gifts that they cannot be rebuked or instructed, as Paul also shows in Rom 12 and 14.

Neither regeneration, justification or eternal life are "things" that are "used". They are conditions granted by God.

If I'm gifted a watch and NEVER put it on, it remains my property, but rather useless.

True. But has nothing to do with loss of salvation.

 

[Drew]

Clearly God can choose to revoke a particular gift.....

. Interesting - this makes things more complicated. When we read something like what we read in Romans11:29, we need to be careful in how we read it. To generalize: I think we take a big risk when we argue "from the definition of a concept". While I have critiqued others for doing this, I may have stretched this particular approach a little too far at times.

 

[FreeGrace]

. Interesting - this makes things more complicated. When we read something like what we read in Romans11:29, we need to be careful in how we read it. To generalize: I think we take a big risk when we argue "from the definition of a concept". While I have critiqued others for doing this, I may have stretched this particular approach a little too far at times.

No kidding!!

 

[JLB]

[

QUOTE="FreeGrace, post: 1127177, member: 7355"]Yeah, please! The idea that eternal life can be discarded is preposterous. Please focus on the issue.


Totally irrelevant to the issue. Please focus on the issue.

[QUTOE] The fact that this is an "internal" gift - a change in internal state - is entirely irrelevant.

That would be an erroneous opinion, that cannot be supported from Scripture.


Irrelevant to the gifts that God gives. Please focus on the issue.

Please explain how one can discard their new creation (2 Cor 5:17).
Please explain how one can discard their status as child of God.
Can you discard the DNA that links you to your birth parents?
Can you discard the Holy Spirit who indwells every believer? Cite Scripture.

The problem you have is Romans 11:29 does not mention anything you have posted.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

Salvation nor eternal life, nor New Creation, nor the Holy Spirit are mentioned in this verse.

Each scripture must be examined in relationship to the other scriptures about any given subject, and in context.

All anyone needs to do in Romans 11 is read the surrounding context to discover the language of Covenant Relationship, and the consequences for violating it.

.., Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:20-22

Because of unbelief they were broken off...

A person would have to be willfully deceptive, with an agenda to purposely deceive other people, to ignore this context and disregard it's meaning.


Furthermore when we compare it to what Jesus taught us using the same analogy of "branches"...


I am the vine you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and they are burned. John 15:5-6

As long as you are connected to Jesus, the source of eternal life, in Covenant Relationship then you will have eternal life.

If you are cast out as a branch from Jesus, then you no longer have access to eternal life.


JLB

 

[Stan1953]

I doesn't. Of course they can, because the Bible says that some have and will. But why do people equate "falling away" from loss of salvation? There is no evidence for that.

I don't really know why people change the vernacular of one post to another, but it IS distracting and a form of equivocation. Losing is NOT walking away, but sadly many do NOT see the difference. EVERYTHING God does is SURE and TRUE. ALL self centeredness belongs to us as humans, and in our selves there is NO security, and in ourselves, we are "deceitfully wicked".

 

[JLB]

The 3 verses I cited prove beyond any doubt that Paul was referring to justification and eternal life in 11:29.

And you've FAILED to prove anything else.

While denying that 'gift' in 11:29 refers to either justification or eternal life, you've proven nothing about it referring to anything else. Oh yes, you've claimed other things, but have not shown from Scripture that Paul called what you've claimed as a gift.

So, your view is just an opinion, an erroneous assumption, all with NO EVIDENCE.

Paul told us what God's gifts are before he said that they were irrevocable. You've failed to refute that.

The problem you have is Romans 11:29 does not mention anything you have posted.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

Salvation nor eternal life, nor New Creation, nor the Holy Spirit are mentioned in this verse.

Each scripture must be examined in relationship to the other scriptures about any given subject, and in context.

All anyone needs to do in Romans 11 is read the surrounding context to discover the language of Covenant Relationship, and the consequences for violating it.

.., Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:20-22

Because of unbelief they were broken off...

A person would have to be willfully deceptive, with an agenda to purposely deceive other people, to ignore this context and disregard it's meaning.


Furthermore when we compare it to what Jesus taught us using the same analogy of "branches"...


I am the vine you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and they are burned.John 15:5-6

As long as you are connected to Jesus, the source of eternal life, in Covenant Relationship then you will have eternal life.

If you are cast out as a branch from Jesus, then you no longer have access to eternal life.


JLB

 

[Drew]

I, for one, am tired of all your ASSUMPTIONS AND SPECULATIONS. You've provided NO evidence for your opinion.

OK, I guess we need to do this the hard way.

Question: Why do you think that the absence of a Biblical example of a person tossing aside some gift from God (if there indeed are no such examples) proves that no gift from God could ever be tossed aside?

 

[JLB]

Where did Paul refer to any of this as a gift?

Where did Paul say eternal life was irrevocable?

 

[JLB]

Keep in mind that Paul taught about how one becomes "in Christ" in Eph 1:13, which is by faith in Christ. And keep in mind from Eph 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 that believers are sealed for the day of redemption.

Write out the scripture so all can see what is said.

All you have done is state your opinion, and tag it with a scripture reference.

What is it that you don't want people to see in the scriptures, as compared to your opinion?


JLB

 

[Stan1953]

Sure. Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 all say justification is a gift.

Again, NOT that I see.
and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Keep in mind that Paul taught about how one becomes "in Christ" in Eph 1:13, which is by faith in Christ. And keep in mind from Eph 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 that believers are sealed for the day of redemption.

Paul was reminding the Ephesian church what he himself did and experienced when he was there initially. It wasn't a recipe, it was a recollection and teaching of the truth of Jesus and the gospel. He knew they were marked by the seal of the Holy Spirit, because He was their and laid hands on them to have it, the same way he laid hands on those in Acts 19:1-7. These are post salvation experiences, just as it was for the Gentiles Peter ministered to in Acts 10.

Neither regeneration, justification or eternal life are "things" that are "used". They are conditions granted by God.

So there are different kinds of gifts? Some are useful some are not?
I'm pretty sure if one is regenerated and doesn't practice that lifestyle, it becomes useless. Same thing for justification. Of course eternal life will be used, once we are made immortal/incorruptible. 1 Cor 15:50-58 (NIV) We have to die ONCE before we attain it, and that has to happen while we are actually IN Christ, and not apostate.





True. But has nothing to do with loss of salvation.[/QUOTE]