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Ignatius on the Eucharist

StoveBolts said:
I believe this idea undermines the Apostles teachings and violates Jerimiah 31:33-34, after all, wasn't the curtain torn granting access for all to the Holy of Holies? (Mark 15:38).

Where does the Scriptures explain the tearing of the curtain as indicative of "all have been granted access"? That is one interpretation based on the desires of those who want what Korah wanted in Numbers 16, do away with priests. It is unlikely, since everyone DOESN'T have access to heaven STILL unless they go THROUGH Jesus - you can say a curtain STILL remains in that aspect.

More likely, this represents the ending of the Old Covenant and the beginning of the New, (since it occurs upon Christ's death) as JESUS becomes the "curtain", our mediator who now offers forgiveness of sins - remember WHEN the High Priest went through the curtain and for what reason? The Old Covenant manner (Yom Kippur) is no longer necessary - Jesus replaces Yom Kippur.

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
As a husband, I am quite happy that my wife does not have the "Protestant" attitude of showing her love for me in the marriage bed only once!

"I already did that once, get away from me!"

Consider this an official warning. Please review our TOS. If you cannot refrain from posting such comments, please don't post at all.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9219
1 - This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act.
 
StoveBolts said:
francisdesales said:
As a husband, I am quite happy that my wife does not have the "Protestant" attitude of showing her love for me in the marriage bed only once!

"I already did that once, get away from me!"

Consider this an official warning. Please review our TOS. If you cannot refrain from posting such comments, please don't post at all.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9219
1 - This is a Christian site, therefore, any attempt to put down Christianity and the basic tenets of our Faith will be considered a hostile act.

Jeff, are you sure this is necessary? I think you misunderstand what I said. I will PM you...

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
The Eucharist is a sacrament. Jesus was a male, not a female. No doubt, there are countless women who can preach and execute the practical functions that a male priest does. But when the priest, in the "person of Christ" says "This is my Body", it should be a male saying it. Also, the priest doesn't take a cheeseburger and say "Take and eat", because that is not what Jesus did. Jesus said "Do 'this' in remembrance of me". Thus, the Church has defined what "this" is that we are to do so as to call to mind the death of our Savior.

...good points. I don't think there should be women priests either by the way... I'm just wondering... (maybe hoping) that God can work His sacraments through less than ideal situations as well.

Regardless, I have to say that it is an awesome thing when we get to experience Him not only spiritually but physically with all five senses: hearing His promises at communion, seeing the bread and wine, feeling the bread, smelling the wine, and tasting both. ..amazing :)
 
Veritas said:
...good points. I don't think there should be women priests either by the way...

There is another element to that, if I may digress a moment: "Holy Ordrs" - the means by which a man becomes a priest - is itself a sacrament. And, part of sacramental theology is that a sacrament must have proper form and proper matter to be valid. It might be better to understand the sacramental principle in general first, since it does pertain to the Eucharist. I'll just be brief and put it in my own words.

God's creation is good, and since we are creatures with 5 senses, God works through "things" in order to allow us to see His actions, such as the mud Jesus rubbed in the blind man's eye, or Aaron's rod, or hands being laid upon another. God performs miraculous actions, but allows us to see them symbolically through our 5 senses. For example, Moses raised his staff over the Red Sea and parted the waters, but who actually parted them, Moses, or God? God, of course. That is an excellent example of the sacramental principle.

The Catechism says:

CCC 1127 - Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify. They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. The Father always hears the prayer of his Son's Church which, in the epiclesis of each sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power

So, in baptism, for example, our eyes see water being poured over the person, and what we don't see is the grace of God washing away that persons sin: "the sacraments confer the grace that they signify". But, if I used motor oil instead of water, the sacrament would be invalid - wrong matter. Or if I said the wrong words, like "I baptise you in the name of the Mother, the Redeemer, and the lady Spirit" or some other whacky phrase, the sacrament would again be invalid - wrong form.

So, a woman priest? The sacrament of "Holy Orders" would be invalid, and they would not be a priest - wrong matter - a woman instead of a man. (Thats why Episcopal female priests are not priests in our eyes, and their "Orders" are invalid.)

Now, the Eucharist is different than the other six sacraments, because the matter undergoes a substantive change. But, the matter still has to be correct - unleavened bread. Put a piece of Wonder Bread on an altar, and all you'll end up with is a piece of Wonder Bread - - wrong matter. Get it?

There's a brief lesson in sacramental theology 101, courtesy of your friendly neighborhood Crusader. :)
 
Veritas said:
francisdesales said:
The Eucharist is a sacrament. Jesus was a male, not a female. No doubt, there are countless women who can preach and execute the practical functions that a male priest does. But when the priest, in the "person of Christ" says "This is my Body", it should be a male saying it. Also, the priest doesn't take a cheeseburger and say "Take and eat", because that is not what Jesus did. Jesus said "Do 'this' in remembrance of me". Thus, the Church has defined what "this" is that we are to do so as to call to mind the death of our Savior.

...good points. I don't think there should be women priests either by the way... I'm just wondering... (maybe hoping) that God can work His sacraments through less than ideal situations as well.

Regardless, I have to say that it is an awesome thing when we get to experience Him not only spiritually but physically with all five senses: hearing His promises at communion, seeing the bread and wine, feeling the bread, smelling the wine, and tasting both. ..amazing :)

Craig,

Thanks for your understanding. You and Lovely have been a breath of fresh air for me lately on this forum. I appreciate your openess, even if you disagree with my point of view.

Brother in Christ,

Joe
 
Catholic Crusader said:
Ignatius of Antioch:

"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible"
source: Letter to the Romans 7:3 [written A.D. 110].

"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes"
source: Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [written A.D. 110].

I found another one:

"Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his Blood, and one single altar of sacrificeâ€â€even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God" (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]).
 
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