Ignoring Romans 2: An Error of Exegisis

[Drew]

As I've stated before, this is talking about the law of Moses for the Jews and the eternal law of God written on the conscience for the Gentiles...so man is without excuse.

No. The "law" in Romans 2 is not the eternal law of God written on the conscience of the Gentile. Look at the wider context:

14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,

The person familar with the Old Testament will know what this allusion to the Law being written on the heart is all about - it is about what will happen to God's people, not pagan Gentiles seeking salvation by their own works:

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

This is, of course, about believers, not pagan Gentiles.

And this:

"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, " I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

It is clear that Paul here is talking about the saved Gentile enabled by God to do good. He is not talking about the pagan Gentile.

 

[Drew]

Now, as to your comment about Romans 2:7. I have consistantly stated your translation is wrong, and I continue to say so.

You have never provided a shred of evidence for this assertion, which, frankly, defies credulity.

You realize that you are setting yourself above all the Bible scholars who have rendered all the translations, all of which, including the KJV, either explicitly or implicitly state that God will give eternal life to those who do good.

It is one thing to suggest that 2:6-7 is a part of a form of argument where Paul is intentionally saying something he knows to be false. It is quite another to do what you are doing.

I know that you probably deeply believe that the KJV form does not have Paul saying that God will give eternal life to those who persist in doing good.

You are simply mistaken - take the KJV version to anyone with reasonable knowledge of the English language. They will all tell you that the same thing - the KJV is indeed effectively saying that God will give eternal life to those who persist in doing good, even if the phrase "he will give" isn't there.

In all seriousness gd, please, please think about this. Here is the text in the KJV:

who “will render to each one according to his deedsâ€:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

The linguistic form is clear - the thing that is rendered here is eternal life. Are you suggesting otherwise?

 

[glorydaz]

State your evidence from the Bible...

We've discussed this, judgment is universally narrowed down to heaven or hell, life or wrath. This is NOT "one verse". Over and over, judgment is based upon what one does in life. There is precious little about being judged good, but losing rewards. Even 1 cor 3 doesn't speak about losing anything, just that some will have to go THROUGH something FIRST before they receive heaven. It doesn't mention anything about lesser rewards.

That's slightly misleading. Judgment (the White Throne Judgment) is based on what one does in life..sheep and goats and all that. The goats will be judged on what they've done in life...the sheep go to the Bema Seat for their rewards (or lesser rewards as the case may be), for they are written in the Lamb's Book of life. They are born of the Spirit (and have passed from death unto life)

Those in Christ do no come under condemnation, so the judgment you're referring to is not for believers. We stand before the Bema Seat of Christ. That is a "judgment" based on how we ran the race and we're given rewards based on that. When the Romans or Greeks competed in races and games of various kinds, they didn't kill the losers of the race. That's where the term "Bema" comes from.

 

[glorydaz]

Here is the text in the KJV:

who “will render to each one according to his deedsâ€:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

The linguistic form is clear - the thing that is rendered here is eternal life. Are you suggesting otherwise?

Here is the actual text from the King James...I'm not sure why your text above is different.

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

What I've tried to tell you, Drew, and will say one more time....

Paul has gone to great pains to explain, already, in his letter that all men sin and fall short....there are none righteous. He's addressing hypocrites who think they can judge others while engaging in sin themselves. He is telling them they will get what they deserve. They may seek after whatever they want, but God will render to every man according to his deeds. One sin erases all those good deeds, as Paul has already made clear. The readers of Paul's letter understand it...I'm not sure why you don't. I'm thinking they knew...or will find out shortly when they read the rest of Paul's letter, that Jesus is the only one without sin, and they need to partake of His righteousness in order to cover the sin that is hidden away in their hearts...out of sight of those who see all those good deeds.

Only those written in the Lamb's Book of life will gain eternal life, and we're written in that Book of Life when we believe in Jesus Christ....it isn't our deeds or even the deeds we do through the power of the Spirit that saves us. Did we go to the cross? Does feeding the hungry take away sin? If so, it's the first I've heard of it. Sin is the problem and the Cross is the answer. So I can rest assured that Paul is not saying eternal life will be given to those who do good deeds...with the help of the Spirit or not.

It was solely the work Jesus did on the cross. Not His work through us or our work through Him, or our efforts, but His on the CROSS. Forgiveness of sin was the work of the cross. His work on the cross, and His resurrection is what give us eternal life.

 

[francisdesales]

That's slightly misleading. Judgment (the White Throne Judgment) is based on what one does in life..sheep and goats and all that. The goats will be judged on what they've done in life...the sheep go to the Bema Seat for their rewards (or lesser rewards as the case may be), for they are written in the Lamb's Book of life. They are born of the Spirit (and have passed from death unto life)

WHAT???? Where is that in the Bible or Tradition of the Church???

This is just a false construct based upon a priori justification by faith ALONE. Since the false construct states that we are saved by faith alone, anything that states man is judged must be somehow twisted to mean only "OTHER" men are "judged", while this TOTALLY FALSE invention of Christians merely receiving lesser rewards is introduced. If Christians were subject to judgment, (deciding whether one was just or not), faith alone would sink like a millstone.

There is absolutely no Scriptural warrant that speaks about separate judgments/determinations of guilt/innocence, one for the "evil", one for the "good". Judgment is introduced, and the end result yields the determination - EVIL/GOOD. Haven't we been discussing that ALL men are on the same playing field in the salvation in Romans 2-3????

God does not give ANYONE a leg up, Jews or Gentile. NO ONE has a favored position.

NO ONE

If the Jews don't, the favored people for hundreds of years, what makes you think YOU do? You are totally undermining the POINT Paul makes in Romans 2-3...!!! Scriptures are yet again ignored to support some fantasy.

Paul states on numerous occasions that Christians can be refused the Kingdom for what they DO! See 1 Cor 6:9-10, for example.

Jesus, clearly, says the same thing. Matthew 25 -

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Mat 25:45-46

The sheep and goats are divided based upon what they did. How they loved. Those who fail (and some Christians do, there is nothing to indicate that this parable refers only to non-Christians) do not go to some other fantasy seat for a lesser reward! Those who do not love get everlasting PUNISHMENT! Not a lesser reward. The bible NOWHERE speaks of a punishment as a "reward" of lesser grade.

It's either you are cast out into the night or you are welcomed into the Wedding Banquet. That's how the parables usually go, including this one.

Romans 2, same thing. To the righteous, eternal life, to the evil, the wrath of God. Nothing about Christians avoiding this or going to another "seat"...

You are confusing "judgment" in a pejorative sense - meaning "wrath", with "to balance the good and the evil to determine whether a person is deserving of the resurrection of the righteous or the unrighteous" (Acts 25:15)

The Christian in Christ shall not see WRATH/Punishment (because he will pass the test), NOT that he will not be subject to whether he was good/evil...

Those in Christ do no come under condemnation,

that's true, but they are weighed to be determined whether they are found wanting or not. Those in Christ will be determined to be righteous, because of their faith working in love. THAT is how we know we are in Christ, by our good deeds, our obedience to the Commandments. Without this, you'll NOT be found in Christ.

so the judgment you're referring to is not for believers. We stand before the Bema Seat of Christ. That is a "judgment" based on how we ran the race and we're given rewards based on that. When the Romans or Greeks competed in races and games of various kinds, they didn't kill the losers of the race.

You never heard of the games in the Coliseum????

Paul said he would be disqualified, so explain to me how being disqualified is a reward...???? Maybe they gave those disqualified a nice little politically correct trophy?

Again, this is the result of the sola fide nightmare. It causes a huge amount of confusion with what the Bible ACTUALLY says and Christians have believed for 2000 years. Even the righteous Jews believed the same thing - we are saved by our good deeds, moved by God. God doesn't change. GRACE has ALWAYS been part and parcel what saves. God desires we rend our hearts, not our garments (Joel 2). When we do, we'll be found righteous in His eyes. OT or NT. REPENT, we are told. Repent and receive the outpouring of the Spirit PROMISED through Joel!

Your confusion stems from a misplaced dichotomy between good deeds and faith. Separating the two will NEVER get you to consolidate all of what the bible says on this issue of salvation. You actually have to INVENT stuff to explain it away.

Or claim that virtually every translation is wrong...

 

[Drew]

Here is the actual text from the King James...I'm not sure why your text above is different.

I copied the wrong translation. Sorry. But the translation below also asserts that eternal life will be granted according to deeds.

We have reached an impasse - you have a fundamentally differerent understanding of how to read an english sentence than I do.

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

 

[Drew]

What I've tried to tell you, Drew, and will say one more time....

Paul has gone to great pains to explain, already, in his letter that all men sin and fall short....

I am not sure why you deny this, but I will try again: a statement that all men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God is not, repeat a statement that they will necessarily continue in that rut after regeneration and therefore cannot be ultimately justified by works. Why you do not understand this is a profound mystery to me. What about these texts, gd:

but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

A clear statement of escape from slavery to sin.

And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

A clear statement - it is possible for men to live according to the Spirit and not according to the sin nature.

And there are others - you cannot deny Romans 2:6-7 by making an argument about the sinfulness of man - the Spirit enables to do the good works that justify at the end.

 

[glorydaz]

That's slightly misleading. Judgment (the White Throne Judgment) is based on what one does in life..sheep and goats and all that. The goats will be judged on what they've done in life...the sheep go to the Bema Seat for their rewards (or lesser rewards as the case may be), for they are written in the Lamb's Book of life. They are born of the Spirit (and have passed from death unto life)

WHAT???? Where is that in the Bible or Tradition of the Church???

This is just a false construct based upon a priori justification by faith ALONE. Since the false construct states that we are saved by faith alone, anything that states man is judged must be somehow twisted to mean only "OTHER" men are "judged", while this TOTALLY FALSE invention of Christians merely receiving lesser rewards is introduced. If Christians were subject to judgment, (deciding whether one was just or not), faith alone would sink like a millstone.

There is absolutely no Scriptural warrant that speaks about separate judgments/determinations of guilt/innocence, one for the "evil", one for the "good". Judgment is introduced, and the end result yields the determination - EVIL/GOOD. Haven't we been discussing that ALL men are on the same playing field in the salvation in Romans 2-3????

God does not give ANYONE a leg up, Jews or Gentile. NO ONE has a favored position.

NO ONE

If the Jews don't, the favored people for hundreds of years, what makes you think YOU do? You are totally undermining the POINT Paul makes in Romans 2-3...!!! Scriptures are yet again ignored to support some fantasy.

Paul states on numerous occasions that Christians can be refused the Kingdom for what they DO! See 1 Cor 6:9-10, for example.

Jesus, clearly, says the same thing. Matthew 25 -

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Mat 25:45-46

The sheep and goats are divided based upon what they did. How they loved. Those who fail (and some Christians do, there is nothing to indicate that this parable refers only to non-Christians) do not go to some other fantasy seat for a lesser reward! Those who do not love get everlasting PUNISHMENT! Not a lesser reward. The bible NOWHERE speaks of a punishment as a "reward" of lesser grade.

It's either you are cast out into the night or you are welcomed into the Wedding Banquet. That's how the parables usually go, including this one.

Romans 2, same thing. To the righteous, eternal life, to the evil, the wrath of God. Nothing about Christians avoiding this or going to another "seat"...

You are confusing "judgment" in a pejorative sense - meaning "wrath", with "to balance the good and the evil to determine whether a person is deserving of the resurrection of the righteous or the unrighteous" (Acts 25:15)

The Christian in Christ shall not see WRATH/Punishment (because he will pass the test), NOT that he will not be subject to whether he was good/evil...

Those in Christ do no come under condemnation,

that's true, but they are weighed to be determined whether they are found wanting or not. Those in Christ will be determined to be righteous, because of their faith working in love. THAT is how we know we are in Christ, by our good deeds, our obedience to the Commandments. Without this, you'll NOT be found in Christ.

so the judgment you're referring to is not for believers. We stand before the Bema Seat of Christ. That is a "judgment" based on how we ran the race and we're given rewards based on that. When the Romans or Greeks competed in races and games of various kinds, they didn't kill the losers of the race.

You never heard of the games in the Coliseum????

Paul said he would be disqualified, so explain to me how being disqualified is a reward...???? Maybe they gave those disqualified a nice little politically correct trophy?

Again, this is the result of the sola fide nightmare. It causes a huge amount of confusion with what the Bible ACTUALLY says and Christians have believed for 2000 years. Even the righteous Jews believed the same thing - we are saved by our good deeds, moved by God. God doesn't change. GRACE has ALWAYS been part and parcel what saves. God desires we rend our hearts, not our garments (Joel 2). When we do, we'll be found righteous in His eyes. OT or NT. REPENT, we are told. Repent and receive the outpouring of the Spirit PROMISED through Joel!

Your confusion stems from a misplaced dichotomy between good deeds and faith. Separating the two will NEVER get you to consolidate all of what the bible says on this issue of salvation. You actually have to INVENT stuff to explain it away.

Or claim that virtually every translation is wrong...

You've got your Catholic glasses well in place.

Those written in the Lamb's book of Life were written in the Book when they were born of the Spirit.
They were justified by faith...the only thing that covers sin is the blood of the Lamb.
I realize you don't accept that, but it's clearly stated in the Word of God. Good deeds done by man...even those done in the strength of the Lord do not take away sin. Only the cross does that.

You don't have an argument with me...you have an argument with Protestants...period.
There doesn't really seem to be anything gained by discussing certain issues with you. I end up seeing anger and frustration, and that's certainly not something I want to contribute to.

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[glorydaz]

Here is the actual text from the King James...I'm not sure why your text above is different.

I copied the wrong translation. Sorry. But the translation below also asserts that eternal life will be granted according to deeds.

We have reached an impasse - you have a fundamentally differerent understanding of how to read an english sentence than I do.

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Perhaps if you read that one sentence in context you wouldn't be having such a problem.

 

[Free]

Perhaps if you read that one sentence in context you wouldn't be having such a problem.

Let's see what you think the context is:

Now, as to your comment about Romans 2:7. I have consistantly stated your translation is wrong, and I continue to say so. I have never said eternal life isn't in the verse. I've said your translation changes a comma to the words, "He will give" eternal life. After reading how the NIV has adulterated the Scripture about the "faith of Jesus Christ", I have absolutely no respect for any translation that changes or adds to what is written.

Here it is from the KJV. It does not say, He will give eternal life.
This passage is speaking of judgment. This verse is not addressed to believers, so your interpretation of this verse is not correct. It's speaking of those who seek after eternal life by well doing. He may receive glory and honor in this life...but not before God (as Romans 4 makes clear). No amount of persistance will take away sin, so when man is judged on his works, he will be found guilty without the grace Paul is about to bring up in the next chapter. As I've said, repeatedly, you insist on taking this verse out of context, and you, therefore, distort Paul's message...which is that good deeds do not

Fallacious arguments regarding translations aside, it has been stated several times that "He will give" is merely being redundant since verse 6 makes it clear what is happening.

In terms of context, if this verse is addressed to unbelievers, then unbelievers can get eternal life "by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality." Is that what you believe?

 

[glorydaz]

Perhaps if you read that one sentence in context you wouldn't be having such a problem.

Let's see what you think the context is:

Now, as to your comment about Romans 2:7. I have consistantly stated your translation is wrong, and I continue to say so. I have never said eternal life isn't in the verse. I've said your translation changes a comma to the words, "He will give" eternal life. After reading how the NIV has adulterated the Scripture about the "faith of Jesus Christ", I have absolutely no respect for any translation that changes or adds to what is written.

Here it is from the KJV. It does not say, He will give eternal life.
This passage is speaking of judgment. This verse is not addressed to believers, so your interpretation of this verse is not correct. It's speaking of those who seek after eternal life by well doing. He may receive glory and honor in this life...but not before God (as Romans 4 makes clear). No amount of persistance will take away sin, so when man is judged on his works, he will be found guilty without the grace Paul is about to bring up in the next chapter. As I've said, repeatedly, you insist on taking this verse out of context, and you, therefore, distort Paul's message...which is that good deeds do not

Fallacious arguments regarding translations aside, it has been stated several times that "He will give" is merely being redundant since verse 6 makes it clear what is happening.

In terms of context, if this verse is addressed to unbelievers, then unbelievers can get eternal life "by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality." Is that what you believe?

No, and neither does Paul. You can't pick up in the middle of someone preaching the gospel message and not expect to be confused. He's already lined them out on the result of sin...

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

He has mentioned the long suffering of God that leads men to repent, which speaks once again to sin. He has pointed out that those who claim to be righteous while committing sins themselves are no better than those they judge.

It's interesting Paul uses the words treasuring unto thyself wrath...good deeds would certainly be counted as a treasure...so why "wrath"? Because they will be facing the "righteous judgment" of God. Would it be righteous to only consider the good deeds while ignoring the sin (which separates us from the love of God)?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Paul is speaking of judgment.. And I'm so glad you pointed out that vs. 6 makes it clear what is happening.

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:"

Is there a person on this earth, even one who persists in doing good deeds, that doesn't have some bad deeds hidden in their closet? God would render eternal life for your good deeds, if those were the only deeds you had. But what does he render for your bad deeds...for your SIN? Deeds include good and bad...because all men sin and come short of the glory of God.

Paul is setting them up for a fall.

And look...here it comes. SIN

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, rewards and the possibility of receiving crowns

That's not what Romans 2 says. The two possibilities are eternal life and wrath.

Romans 2 is speaking of judgment based on deeds...that isn't the Bema Seat.

You'll have to look elsewhere for the reward that will be given to believers.

And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

 

[Drew]

This should put an end to the claim that Romans 2:6-7 in the KJV is not making an assertion about God giving eternal life based on deeds. Again, it is at least legitimate to argue that Paul is using a form of argument where he says what he does not believe first, in order to tell us later what he actually does believe. I do not believe that Paul is doing this, but it is at least plausible.

What is not plausisble is to claim that verses 6 and 7 in the KJV (or any other translation for that matter) is not, as an isolated chunk of text, referring to future event where eternal life is granted according to deeds.

This argument leaves you no "out", gd:

Here is the text in the KJV:

who “will render to each one according to his deedsâ€: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

The verb "will render" clearly must have an object - the "thing" that is rendered. Gd, what is the object here? There must be an object, implied or directly asserted, where there is a verb phrase.

So what is the object? What is the "thing" that is rendered?

The clear answer here is "eternal life". But gd, you think differently.

So please complete this sentence: "Paul is here saying that God will render [blank]".

Please tell us, gd, what is the "blank", the object of the verb phrase "will render"?

And if it is not "eternal life", what is the grammatical function of this noun in this sentence?

 

[Drew]

About Romans 2:6-7 again.

I have no doubt that gd will say that what is rendered here is rewards other than enternal life. Well, then why does Paul give us "eternal life" as the obvious object of the verb "will render"?

But let's say that Paul is saying that God will render "rewards" and not eternal life.

Then please tell us, what function does the phrase "eternal life" actually perform in this set of verses? Why is it there? What is Paul saying about "eternal life". If what God will render is "rewards" why does Paul mention eternal life at all?

 

[seekandlisten]

"The parables show that the convert who does not grow in Spirit and character development will lose out. He represents one who 'received Christ' and considered that he was already 'born again' but did not think he needed to overcome, grow spiritually, or develop spiritual character. He thought he was 'already saved.' He said he didn't believe in salvation by 'works.' What he didn't realize is that while salvation is a free gift, we are rewarded according to our works (Matt. 16:27). But by doing nothing, he lost not only the reward, but he lost out on the free gift of eternal life. "Christ's answer to such, when He returns with the Kingdom of God, is, 'Thou wicked and slothful servant'....He failed utterly in God's real purpose -- reproducing in us the holy, righteous character that we may receive from God. "Many have been deceived into a false 'salvation.'" --Herbert W. Armstrong, The Incredible Human Potential, (New York: Everest House, 1978), p. 85.

You can't pick one part of the bible and ignore the rest and pretend like you have the answer. 'Faith' without 'works' is nothing. 'Works' without 'direction' are nothing. How does one solve the parodox between 'faith' and 'works' being sufficient? Maybe you can't have one without the other?

cheers

A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes. - Ghandi

 

[Mysteryman]

About Romans 2:6-7 again.

I have no doubt that gd will say that what is rendered here is rewards other than enternal life. Well, then why does Paul give us "eternal life" as the obvious object of the verb "will render"?

But let's say that Paul is saying that God will render "rewards" and not eternal life.

Then please tell us, what function does the phrase "eternal life" actually perform in this set of verses? Why is it there? What is Paul saying about "eternal life". If what God will render is "rewards" why does Paul mention eternal life at all?

Hi Drew

The verse is telling us what to look forward too. The word "seek" is the key word here !

"seek" is the greek word - "zeleo" , which means to - "desire". Now do a word study on this word and how it is used in the gospels and church epistles, and latter epistles.

Romans 2:7 - "To them who by patient continuance in well doing, seek (desire) glory and honour and immortality and eternal life".

This should put this conversation to rest.

 

[Drew]

The verse is telling us what to look forward too. The word "seek" is the key word here !

No. The verse is saying what everyone who understands how to parse an English sentence will know that it says - God will "render" or "give" eternal life to those who persist in doing good.

Yes, the word "seek" is there, but the sentence says what it says!!!

"Eternal life" is there in the sentence. It is there for a reason. And the linguistic form does not allow you to say that there is only "seeking" of eternal life going on here

Are you telling us that the following text does not have "eternal life" functioning in the role of something that will be rendered? A simply yes or no answer will suffice.

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life

When someone says this:

"Who will render to every child according to his deeds: To those children who by patient continuance in well doing seek for ice cream, ice cream."

...are they not promising ice cream cones to children do good (and also seek for ice cream)?

I suspect that you know full well that this is exactly what such a statement implies.

There is a thin line between legitimate discussion and distortion. I suggest that both you and gd are traversing that line.

 

[ivdavid]

Drew,

I'd like to get clarified, these meanings too -

What is justification according to you?

What is judgement according to you?

I'm also pretty sure that you hold anything that is not a 'good work' to be sin, right?

Are faith and good works separable?



And I still think that the focus should be on these questions that came up in the previous posts -

What exactly is 'believing in Christ' ?

Why did Jesus have to die on the cross and resurrect to eternal glory?

 

[glorydaz]

This should put an end to the claim that Romans 2:6-7 in the KJV is not making an assertion about God giving eternal life based on deeds. Again, it is at least legitimate to argue that Paul is using a form of argument where he says what he does not believe first, in order to tell us later what he actually does believe. I do not believe that Paul is doing this, but it is at least plausible.

What is not plausisble is to claim that verses 6 and 7 in the KJV (or any other translation for that matter) is not, as an isolated chunk of text, referring to future event where eternal life is granted according to deeds.

This argument leaves you no "out", gd:

Here is the text in the KJV:

who “will render to each one according to his deedsâ€: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

The verb "will render" clearly must have an object - the "thing" that is rendered. Gd, what is the object here? There must be an object, implied or directly asserted, where there is a verb phrase.

So what is the object? What is the "thing" that is rendered?

The clear answer here is "eternal life". But gd, you think differently.

So please complete this sentence: "Paul is here saying that God will render [blank]".

Please tell us, gd, what is the "blank", the object of the verb phrase "will render"?

And if it is not "eternal life", what is the grammatical function of this noun in this sentence?

I'm sorry, Drew, but once again you've misquoted the KJV.

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

What will be rendered? Righteous judgment according to one's deeds. Good and bad deeds, Drew.

5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

This portion is like the one in Romans 4, and the key word here is "seek".
Men reap what they sow in this life. Those who seek glory, honor, immortality, and eternal life have whereof to glory, BUT NOT BEFORE GOD.

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

 

[glorydaz]

"The parables show that the convert who does not grow in Spirit and character development will lose out. He represents one who 'received Christ' and considered that he was already 'born again' but did not think he needed to overcome, grow spiritually, or develop spiritual character. He thought he was 'already saved.' He said he didn't believe in salvation by 'works.' What he didn't realize is that while salvation is a free gift, we are rewarded according to our works (Matt. 16:27). But by doing nothing, he lost not only the reward, but he lost out on the free gift of eternal life. "Christ's answer to such, when He returns with the Kingdom of God, is, 'Thou wicked and slothful servant'....He failed utterly in God's real purpose -- reproducing in us the holy, righteous character that we may receive from God. "Many have been deceived into a false 'salvation.'" --Herbert W. Armstrong, The Incredible Human Potential, (New York: Everest House, 1978), p. 85.

You can't pick one part of the bible and ignore the rest and pretend like you have the answer. 'Faith' without 'works' is nothing. 'Works' without 'direction' are nothing. How does one solve the parodox between 'faith' and 'works' being sufficient? Maybe you can't have one without the other?

cheers

A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes. - Ghandi

That was a great post, seek.
This reminds me of where I fellowship, only it's never over-heated like it can get on this board. But one brother will get up and share something from the Word. Then another gets up and shares something else that doesn't seem to connect. Then up stands the third and fourth that tie it all together. Your post has done that for me. Thanks for sharing. Anyway...on with what I was saying.

You hit the nail on the head. First you picked up quite correctly that Paul is talking to hypocrites in this entire section. He is speaking to the "whited sepulchres" of all men. And this is the whole picture of works vs. faith.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

Romans 2 ties in perfectly with Eph. 2, James 2, and Rom. 4 explains why.
The answer is this...if man is justifed by works, he has much to glory....but not before God.

The three "2's" speak of hypocrites who glory in works, but what did Abraham "in the flesh" find. That man can well glory in his good works, but not before God. This is as per the flesh...James says the same. He's speaking to hypocrites, as well.

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

The reward for works is but of debt. It's no more than what man owes God.

So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Work has it's rewards, here on earth...before men. In James, we show our faith (to men) by our works. Eph. tell us works do not save us, but good deeds will follow salvation....as they are ordained, by God, that we should walk in them. Only those with the Spirit, and a heart that's been circumcised by God will do the good deeds that are acceptable to God.

And, you're right. We can't have one without the other...they go hand in hand.
But it isn't the two, but the one, that justifies us before God. That is faith. We are "justified" by faith not of works (any and all works conducted by man...whether in the Spirit or out). It is by God's grace....a free gift...unearned, and there is no contribution needed except to believe. To believe is our very first act of obedience to God. Our work is to believe, and to believe is to obey. Hand in hand, like you say. Might I add, for the nay sayers, it is by the faith of Jesus Christ that we are justified. If it weren't, then man would have the credit for his own salvation. Man would like to say, "I had the faith...my faith justifies me before God, and my works contributed, as well."

Our Lord's obedient work unto death is what justifies us before God...it is His faith in His mission of redemption. He believed His death would redeem all those who "touched the rock" or "looked upon" the serpent on a pole. He had faith that His death would satisfy God for the debt man owed for sin. It isn't our faith in Christ that "justifies." Jesus is the Just One, and He gets all credit for man's salvation.