Ignoring Romans 2: An Error of Exegisis

[francisdesales]

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad. 2 Cor 5:10"


Both these verses, the word "judgement"is the greek word --- "bema"

Why are you translating the English back to Greek? There is only one judgment seat. Any reference to a judgment seat is refering to the same one. Jesus doesn't sit on one seat, and then move to another one specially for unbelievers...

Clearly, you haven't read the OT, God doesn't withhold punishment upon the wicked Jews, nor does He withhold punishment permanently from wicked Christians.

 

[Mysteryman]

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad. 2 Cor 5:10"


Both these verses, the word "judgement"is the greek word --- "bema"

Why are you translating the English back to Greek? There is only one judgment seat. Any reference to a judgment seat is refering to the same one. Jesus doesn't sit on one seat, and then move to another one specially for unbelievers...

Clearly, you haven't read the OT, God doesn't withhold punishment upon the wicked Jews, nor does He withhold punishment permanently from wicked Christians.

I could tell you where every comma is in the OT. But be that as it may, there are still two judgements !

One is the "bema" - Judgement seat of Christ
The other is the "thronos" - White throne judgement

 

[glorydaz]

You again misrepresent purposely because you are confounded... I have never suggested something else covers our sin besides the blood of Christ. Good deeds are done by man, but invariably, moved by the Spirit. What trips you up is your unbelief in the Scriptures plainly stating that GOD TRANSFORMS man. He is born of the Spirit, you say, but you don't REALLY believe that.

What exactly is the purpose of this rebirth, if the same creature, the old man who can do NOTHING good, remains? God says He will place a new heart within this new person. But you say He cannot do this.

Where is that vaunted faith you speak about? You have stooped to this level of misrepresentation because you cannot argue against my actual point, but must re-invent one.

Don't tell me what I believe. We are new creatures, but we are still not perfect enough to save ourselves from sin, or to keep ourselves saved, either. Man can allow the fruit of the Spirit to be manifest in his life and obey the voice of the Lord, but that is no more than our duty to do so. The fruit of the Spirit is His fruit...not ours. Whatever we do in our own strength is as filthy rags to God. We have a new heart to serve God. I have never said God doesn't give us a new heart. Does that new heart mean you are now righteous enough to save and keep yourself? God says not. It is Christ in us...period. We decrease so He can increase. BTW...this vaunted faith I speak of is the faith of Christ...not mine.

Don't forget Jesus said that people can be removed from that book.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev 3:5

OR are you going to claim that God didn't really say that, it's a false translation, or that He cannot do that, either?

No, He said He WILL NOT blot out our names. He that overcomes is he that is born of God. Those who are in Christ have overcome because Jesus overcame.

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Here we see quite clearly that we have overcome when we believe in Jesus. It's a promise that we will NOT be blotted from the Lamb's Book of Life, not a threat hanging over the head of the sons of God.

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[glorydaz]

I would suggest you read Rev. 13:8 more carefully and combine what it says here, with Ephesians 1:4

Thanks for the reference, but honestly, I don't see different judgment seats mentioned. In one, it mentions judgment in the negative sense, in the other, the positive sense. Those who pass and those who fail - known by God through all eternity...

I'm surprised you don't know about the books (plural).

The sheep and the goats are separated.

The sheep stand before the Bema Seat (2 Cor. 5), which is the "rewards" for the games that have been run by the believers. Our deeds are "judged" without sin in the mix, because our sins are forgiven. No condemnation for us.

The goats are judged according to their deeds (Romans 2) and will be found wanting because their sins have not been forgiven. They did not partake of the free gift.

 

[glorydaz]

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad. 2 Cor 5:10"


Both these verses, the word "judgement"is the greek word --- "bema"

Why are you translating the English back to Greek? There is only one judgment seat. Any reference to a judgment seat is refering to the same one. Jesus doesn't sit on one seat, and then move to another one specially for unbelievers...

Clearly, you haven't read the OT, God doesn't withhold punishment upon the wicked Jews, nor does He withhold punishment permanently from wicked Christians.

"Wicked Christians"??????

That's an oxymoron. Believers have the righteousness of Christ...we are IN CHRIST therefore we do not come under condemnation. We have been declared righteous. It's just that simple.

 

[Vic C.]

By God's grace...We are Reconciled by His death, Justified by His faith, Saved by His Life, Filled with His Spirit, and Sanctified for His use. It's not complicated in the least.

You are correct. Sometimes we have to put aside our intellect and marvel at the simplicity and wonder of it all. :amen

You are a Protestant, and my argument is with Protestant theology. You are currently that representative of that heresy. Period.

I'll pick the flag up off the field this time because either no one saw it or just didn't take it seriously. BUT... I can't allow this to continue. You cannot come here and call anyone whose not of the RCC or orthodox persuasion a heretic unless you want it to be open season on the RCC. I'm certain the felling of some here about who promotes heresy is mutual.

In order to maintain any level of civility, this cannot be a us/them debate. This is a matter of interpretation, not religious dogma!

 

[Drew]

Whatever we do in our own strength is as filthy rags to God. We have a new heart to serve God. I have never said God doesn't give us a new heart. Does that new heart mean you are now righteous enough to save and keep yourself? God says not. It is Christ in us...period. We decrease so He can increase.

It is difficult to discuss things with you since you so frequently and repeatedly misrepresent what others say. Can you understand why it seems to us that this must be intentional?

You have been told over and over and over again that we (fds and I, if not others) are not, repeat are not asserting that the works that "save" are works for which we can take credit. We take this Paul fellow at his word when he asserts that these works are generated by the Holy Spirit.

Why do you misrepresent us, gd?

 

[Drew]

By God's grace...We are Reconciled by His death, Justified by His faith, Saved by His Life, Filled with His Spirit, and Sanctified for His use. It's not complicated in the least.

You are correct. Sometimes we have to put aside our intellect and marvel at the simplicity and wonder of it all. :amen

No. She is not correct. At least she is not correct to assert that we are not ultimately saved by "good works" - Paul means what he says in Romans 2:6-7. All the above that gd writes is true, but its only part of the truth.

Even though many here simply ignore the argument: there is no inconsistency at all between asserting that people are justified by faith and ultimately saved from condemnation / wrath based on the good works that are generated by the person who is given the Holy Spirit based on one thing alone.

Faith.

 

[Drew]

Hey fds: How about you and I rip Romans 8 out of our Bibles and undergo electro-shock to erase our memory of them. Then, perhaps, we can see gd's point about how man cannot possibly be saved by the Spirit's transformative power.

Oh....and Titus as well.

And perhaps other texts as well.

I could do with a lighter Bible.... :D

 

[Drew]

Since 2 Corinthians 5:10 has been brought up:

Paul’s argument of 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 shows that Paul sees the “redeemed†indeed standing judgement at the end of their lives with eternal life at issue.

Consider the first five verses. Repeatedly Paul makes statements about a "we" who get certain things. And it is clear that Paul is talking about the conferral of eternal life with God. So the “we†that he is talking about must be believers – since presumably we all agree that only believers will get eternal life with God.

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Paul's long list is about things that the redeemed will get and the lost will not.

And yet some will argue that believers are not part of the “we†that will stand judgement as per the following:

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Such people argue that verse 10 describes a works-based judgement that believers will not be subject to.

It is simply not plausible that Paul would be excluding believers from the “we†in this text. How does it makes sense for Paul to give a glorious list of all the things that the elect and the elect only receive, conclude with a statement about a certain “we†getting in accordance with what was done in the body, all the while intending the reader to understand that, in verse 10, he is talking both about an entirely different group and an entirely different set of things that group will receive (since only believers will get the things mentioned in verse 1 through 5)?

In fact, all of the first nine verses deal with a “we†that can only be seen as denoting believers. And the first five verses focus on the specific reward of eternal life. So how is it possible for verse 10 to refer to a “we†that excludes believers? Or how is it possible that Paul has spent 5 verses dwelling on the reward of eternal life with God and then excludes this reward from the rewards that will given as per verse 10?

Verse 9 makes it even more clear that believers will indeed be subject to the “good works†judgement of verse 10:

So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad

1. In verse 9 Paul exhorts believers to please God while in the body;

2. Paul says that there is a "we" who will be judged according to what is done "in the body";

3. Therefore, Paul must intend us to understand that the redeemed will be judged according to things done in the body. No competent writer would exhort believers to please God while we are "in the body" and then immediately make a "because" or "for" statement of the form "for we will receive according to what is done in the body", without intending the reader to think that the redeemed, the very ones who are exhorted to live well in the body, will come under this judgement.

 

[Drew]

While we are on 2 Corinthians 5:10.....

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

What have fds and I been saying all along? That there will be a "good works" judgement at the end with eternal life in the balance, but - and I know this will misrepresented - where the works are produced by the Holy Spirit.

Is this not what Paul is saying here? Of course it is. There is hardly a more apt way of expressing this "salvation by good works as generated by the Spirit" position than to speak of the awarding of eternal life as based on the Spirit as a "down payment".

 

[Mysteryman]

God places us in the body of Christ where it pleases him. Once in the body of Christ, which none of us could accomplish of ourselves. By predestination, we then stand before the judgement seat of Christ .

Some are even feeble - I Corinth. 12:22 - "Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble are necessary"

Ephesians 5:23 - "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church; and he is the saviour of the body"

Ephesians 5:25 - "Husbans, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it: Verse 26 - "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word.

Verse 27 - "That he might present it to himself a glorious church,not having spot or wrinkle, or any such thing ; but that it should be holy and without blemish"

verse 29 - "For mo man every yet hated his own flesh ; but nourisheth and cherisheth it , even as the Lord the church"

verse 30 - "For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones"

verse 31 - "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh"

Verse 32 - "This is a great mystery : but I speak concerning Christ and the church"

 

[glorydaz]

Whatever we do in our own strength is as filthy rags to God. We have a new heart to serve God. I have never said God doesn't give us a new heart. Does that new heart mean you are now righteous enough to save and keep yourself? God says not. It is Christ in us...period. We decrease so He can increase.

It is difficult to discuss things with you since you so frequently and repeatedly misrepresent what others say. Can you understand why it seems to us that this must be intentional?

You have been told over and over and over again that we (fds and I, if not others) are not, repeat are not asserting that the works that "save" are works for which we can take credit. We take this Paul fellow at his word when he asserts that these works are generated by the Holy Spirit.

Why do you misrepresent us, gd?

It does not matter if our works are done through the Holy Spirit or not when it comes to salvation. Those are not the works that save or justify us before God. It was Christ's work on the cross...only His work...not ours...Holy Spirit generated good deeds or not. Now you tell me, how many times do I have to say that to you?

 

[Drew]

It does not matter if our works are done through the Holy Spirit or not when it comes to salvation. Those are not the works that save or justify us before God.

Does it not bother you that, in this text, Paul is clearly telling us that it is those who live a certain way as the Spirit directs will get eternal life:

You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

If you live by the Spirit you will...........what?

Get rewards? No. Get life.

The real issue here is that either you are intentionally misrepresenting what Paul is saying here, or, you somehow cannot relinquish your grip on a certain doctrine to the extent that you unintentionally re-work Paul's words to fit that doctrine.

But either way, you are not being true to what Paul is saying here.

 

[glorydaz]

Hey fds: How about you and I rip Romans 8 out of our Bibles and undergo electro-shock to erase our memory of them. Then, perhaps, we can see gd's point about how man cannot possibly be saved by the Spirit's transformative power.

Oh....and Titus as well.

And perhaps other texts as well.

I could do with a lighter Bible.... :D

It would be better for you to rip them out, than for you to twist and adulterate them the way you do.
I take nothing away from what Paul teaches. The Spirit's power to transform is not what's in question. You're claiming that "transformation" enables us to contribute to our salvation. That's pretty much what all the cults teach. So, I will continue to correct you...even though you resort to such childish displays as your above post evidences.

Your spirit empowered works do not take away sin, Drew. I'm sure you'd like to think they do, but that's just not the case. Our good deeds are but the evidence of the Holy Spirit working through us. They do not save us. If our good deeds saved us, then God could have just sent the Holy Spirit to live in us, and Christ need not have gone to the cross at all.

 

[glorydaz]

Since 2 Corinthians 5:10 has been brought up:

Paul’s argument of 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 shows that Paul sees the “redeemed†indeed standing judgement at the end of their lives with eternal life at issue.

Consider the first five verses. Repeatedly Paul makes statements about a "we" who get certain things. And it is clear that Paul is talking about the conferral of eternal life with God. So the “we†that he is talking about must be believers – since presumably we all agree that only believers will get eternal life with God.

1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Paul's long list is about things that the redeemed will get and the lost will not.

And yet some will argue that believers are not part of the “we†that will stand judgement as per the following:

10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Such people argue that verse 10 describes a works-based judgement that believers will not be subject to.

It is simply not plausible that Paul would be excluding believers from the “we†in this text. How does it makes sense for Paul to give a glorious list of all the things that the elect and the elect only receive, conclude with a statement about a certain “we†getting in accordance with what was done in the body, all the while intending the reader to understand that, in verse 10, he is talking both about an entirely different group and an entirely different set of things that group will receive (since only believers will get the things mentioned in verse 1 through 5)?

In fact, all of the first nine verses deal with a “we†that can only be seen as denoting believers. And the first five verses focus on the specific reward of eternal life. So how is it possible for verse 10 to refer to a “we†that excludes believers? Or how is it possible that Paul has spent 5 verses dwelling on the reward of eternal life with God and then excludes this reward from the rewards that will given as per verse 10?

Verse 9 makes it even more clear that believers will indeed be subject to the “good works†judgement of verse 10:

So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad

1. In verse 9 Paul exhorts believers to please God while in the body;

2. Paul says that there is a "we" who will be judged according to what is done "in the body";

3. Therefore, Paul must intend us to understand that the redeemed will be judged according to things done in the body. No competent writer would exhort believers to please God while we are "in the body" and then immediately make a "because" or "for" statement of the form "for we will receive according to what is done in the body", without intending the reader to think that the redeemed, the very ones who are exhorted to live well in the body, will come under this judgement.

You're evidently confused about the Judgment Seat of Christ. Those who stand before the Bema Seat do not come under condemnation. Eternal life has already been granted to those who are in Christ, so it is not at issue. To be found acceptable is to hear the, "Well done, good and faithful servant." The Judgment in Romans 2 is the Great White Throne Judgment of God. The White Throne is the judgment for the goats, Drew. I'm confident you won't be there for that one. The Judgment seat of Christ is for those who have been born of the Spirit. You did notice the "deposit" "guaranteeing" our inheritance, didn't you? Are you doubting God's guarantee?

We're a purchased possession...bought with a price. You're just disputing the price by claiming we need to add to what Christ did on the cross.

 

[Drew]

It would be better for you to rip them out, than for you to twist and adulterate them the way you do.

Moi? Adulterate? Please....

I am not the one who disagrees with Paul that those who walk in the Spirit get life. That is what you believe - that life is not attained by how we live in the Spirit. Now one of us is misrepresenting what Paul says here:

You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

Now, gd, are you saying that this text does not have Paul asserting that the person who gets life is the one who lives according to the Spirit?

Please ensure that you explain to us precisely what this statement means, then:

if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

 

[Drew]

You're evidently confused about the Judgment Seat of Christ. Those who stand before the Bema Seat do not come under condemnation. Eternal life has already been granted to those who are in Christ, so it is not at issue.

You are ignoring the content of my argument and making an assertion of a position. That is not acceptable if you are looking to engage in proper debate.

 

[glorydaz]

It does not matter if our works are done through the Holy Spirit or not when it comes to salvation. Those are not the works that save or justify us before God.

Does it not bother you that, in this text, Paul is clearly telling us that it is those who live a certain way as the Spirit directs will get eternal life:

You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you. 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,

If you live by the Spirit you will...........what?

Get rewards? No. Get life.

The real issue here is that either you are intentionally misrepresenting what Paul is saying here, or, you somehow cannot relinquish your grip on a certain doctrine to the extent that you unintentionally re-work Paul's words to fit that doctrine.

But either way, you are not being true to what Paul is saying here.

Get over these ridiculous accusations concerning the motive behind my "intentions", will you?
Just grow up.

What I am doing, very intentionally, is trying to open your eyes to the truth of the Scripture.


Drew. What you're failing to understand is that all who are filled with the Spirit are living according to the Spirit. You may not think they are, but they are, nonetheless. Living according to the Spirit means we no longer live in our old sinful nature. Notice it says, "by the Spirit" you put to death the misdeeds of the flesh. Jesus did that for us...blessed are they whose sins are covered. We are no longer under the bondage of sin. As I explained earlier...it's a question of one's position in Christ. The natural man vs. the spiritual man. You're mixing them up as if there isn't a difference.

No creature could possibly be carnal, sold under sin, brought into captivity to the law of sin and death, and at the same time be made free from that law of sin and death, by the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. These two opposite states can never exist in the same person at the same time. Therefore your argument fails.

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[glorydaz]

You're evidently confused about the Judgment Seat of Christ. Those who stand before the Bema Seat do not come under condemnation. Eternal life has already been granted to those who are in Christ, so it is not at issue.

You are ignoring the content of my argument and making an assertion of a position. That is not acceptable if you are looking to engage in proper debate.

LOL Really, Drew...you are not the one to lecture me on "proper debate".

Most often when people hurl out as many charges as you have concerning my motives, I shake the dust off and move along. I just find you a special case, and so I perservere.