Ignoring Romans 2: An Error of Exegisis

[archangel_300]

The fact of possibility or impossibility is not the issue of the text.

The topic sentence of the local context of verses 6-10 is verse 6. (all quotes from ASV)
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Verses 1-5 makes it clear that the topic is the unregenerate Jew passing judgment on the pagan Gentile of chapter 1. This unregenerate Jew will not escape the judgment of God (vs 3).
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
This unregenerate Jew despises the riches, goodness, and forbearance of God.
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Verse 4 and 5 makes it clear that this person is unrepentant and has a very hard heart.

After reading the context of verses 3-5 it seems inconceivable that we can think of the context as relating to believers. Do you think verses 3-5 refer to believers?

So then, when we get to verse 6, we are rendering to every man an impartial judgment is the idea. So then verse 7 is a description of Gods impartiality. He will impartially render eternal life to those who have "patient good works" (??? ???????? ????? ??????), he will render his judgment according to those good works. Verse 8 is a description of Gods impartial judgment upon those who are disobedient.
**** A little extra comment on vs 7. I note the concept of "patience" in good works. Verse 7 is asking for more then 50%. It is asking for perfection in with the unusual word "????????." (patience).

That is all that is being asserted, is that God will be an impartial judge. So then when you ask.... "Are you saying Romans 2:7 is an impossibility?" It depends upon what sense you are asking this question. If you are asking according to the context---is it possible for a unregenerate Jew to do the continuous works of faith, the answer would be yes, it is impossible. However, I suspect you are not asking the question in relation to the context, but rather according to the understanding of the New Perspective on Paul which does not grasp the context of the passage.

The whole point of verses 7-8 relate to the concept of the question does God judge impartially. It is not referring to a method of salvation. If it were possible (and it is not) for an unregenerate Jew to do the works of God continuously, then yes, he would inherit eternal life by his own merit. He would not need the substitution of Christ. Christs death would be a foolish error on the part of God if this unregenerate Jew could continuously and patiently do good works.

The fact that the context is about the unregenerate Jew also shows up in verse 10. This is why Paul mentions to "the Jew first." Of course God is impartial with the Gentile too. That is the point of verse 10.

If I can add some more about the context.....

Verse 11 is a new part of the context. In verses 6-10 the issue was that the judgment of God is impartial. Verse 11 is an explanation of why God is so impartial. It is his nature to be impartial. He is a "no respector of persons" kind of God.

Then in verse 12 and 13 we again see the Jewishness of the context. Verse 12 speaks of both unregenerate Jews and Gentiles. Those under the law will perish with the law, those not under the law go to hell without the law. Then comes the disputed passage... verse 13.
Rom 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
This refers back to verse 1. In verse 1 the unregenerate Jew was judging the Gentiles of Chapter 1, but doing the same things themselves. They were depending upon possession and hearing the law to make them righteous judges. But they were not doing the law. Jesus also accuses the Jews of violation of the Law to satisfy their own traditions. In verse 13 Paul makes it clear that hearing the law will not justify before an impartial judge/God. To be declared righteous, the unregenerate Jew must do the law. Verse 13 is laying out the criteria for a future justification of the unregenerate that will never really happen, or never really come. The justification is on the basis of the Mosiac Law.

Now to ask you a question... What law do you say is being referred to according to the context in verses 12-13? What in the context demands the interpretation that Chapter 2 is about anyone saved? NT Wright, got it all wrong, and it is him that ignores evangelical counter exegesis. NT Wright is the one with the dirty little secrete of ignoring evangelical exegesis.

Nice!
I can accept this as a possible interpretation of Romans 2.
Yes I was asking the question, "is Romans 2:7 an impossibility" with regards to the context it was written. This is similiar to the time when a man asked Jesus "Good teacher what must I do to inherit eternal life" and Jesus response was "There is none good but God alone" and then Jesus told him what he must do to inherit eternal life apart from having Jesus Christ as Savior... which was obey the law perfectly.

 

[francisdesales]

Note to Francisdesales---I am pooped after all this writing. If you simply read my responses to the other two fella's, you should see I actually replied to what you said anyway. To labor the point with more replies to the same questions would not profit anyway. Sorry, out of gas for tonight.

I am sorry, I didn't see how you address either of my comments on page 2 - regarding "unregenerate pagans" doing good deeds and being saved, or about Judaism in of itself being a religion of "working to God to earn salvation". The first is not possible, see Romans 1, the second is a misrepresentation of Judaism based upon looking at the worst part of it, Pharisaical hypocrisy.

That would be like looking at Calvinism FIRST through the double predestination nightmare and applying it broad brushed to everyone of Calvinistic backgrounds.

But I see you have enough on your plate with Drew, so you can discuss this at another time.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Nice!
I can accept this as a possible interpretation of Romans 2.
Yes I was asking the question, "is Romans 2:7 an impossibility" with regards to the context it was written. This is similiar to the time when a man asked Jesus "Good teacher what must I do to inherit eternal life" and Jesus response was "There is none good but God alone" and then Jesus told him what he must do to inherit eternal life apart from having Jesus Christ as Savior... which was obey the law perfectly.

You are imposing your understanding of "one must obey the Law perfectly" view upon the teachings of Jesus Christ. Nowhere does the Law state "give up what you own and follow me" as a part of the Law. There is absolutely NO necessity to "obey the Law perfectly" when one is under Grace. That is the nature of being a CHILD of God! Jesus was NOT stating an impossibility, His disciples were doing just that - and as it stands, none were "perfect in the ways of the Law" - they certainly did not wash their hands and other such cultic actions before eating.

Romans 2 has little to do with the rich young man and some theoretical impossibility. He was a Jew, and Romans 2 deals with pagans who happen to be SPIRITUAL Jews, circumcised of the heart. As it turns out, that is the requirment of ALL men - to become circumcised in the heart, according to Romans 1-3...

Let us not impose our already-held beliefs on the Scriptures. Nowhere does Jesus note that one must follow the Law perfectly to become justified - and to twist this passage to state the rich man's desires as only theoretically achievable is to totally ignore the men surrounding the Christ to BEGIN WITH!

Regards

 

[archangel_300]

But I would think it would be foolish of God to pay for a sin if he knew by foreknowledge that the person would would reject him in the first place. Also God would not be just or righteous because if that person rejects him and sends him/her to hell to pay for their sins when they are already paid for.... God cannot be just.

[quote="archangel_300":rap84rtn]Is it?? And what's faulty about it?

Well, would God be just or righteous if he arbitrarily picked some people for heaven and created others just to go to hell?[/quote:rap84rtn]

There is none righteous as the scripture states.
No one wants God or seeks after God in their own inherent carnal nature so if God throws everyone into hell in order for them to pay for their own sins how can that be unrighteous? Each of us has a debt we owe to God and our penalty for our sin is not going to be unfair... it will be perfectly just according to each person's work. Yes, what comes around will eventually go around... it's God's perfect justice that will prevail as in "eye for eye, tooth for tooth". As Romans 9 states, we cannot dispute with the creator on these matters why some are chosen and not others. He is the potter and we are the clay.

Using your argument on being fair:
It's quite obvious that not everyone has an equal chance at salvation in the first place. If you are saying God is fair how can it be fair when there are plenty of people who never have a chance at hearing the gospel before they die?

 

[Drew]

In summary, here are some of the problems with the assertion that Romans 2:1-13 or so is focused solely on the Jew:

1. There are several direct references to Gentiles being present and subject to the judgement;

2. The fact that the passage is directed to the Jew does not, of course, necessitate that Paul cannot be making arguments about what happens to all humanity, since, obviously, he can be telling the Jew "since this is what happens to all humanity, it can happen to you to as well".

3. References to the "Law" do not necessarily refer to the Law of Moses. In fact, we knowthat Paul cannot be referring to the Law of Moses when he speaks of the Gentile keeping a "law" as he does in verse 14 and 15. This cannot be an allusion to the Law of Moses, which the Gentile is not even under.

 

[archangel_300]

Faith/Jason,

The thing is the Bible states these things.
People may call me a "Calvinist" but I just try to follow and obey what the scriptures state.
Unless someone can demonstrate to me that all the scriptures such as Romans 9, Ephesians 1 and elsewhere are read out of context then I have no choice but to follow and listen to what the Bible states regardless of my own likes and dislikes. I'm not about to go and pick and choose what I like to hear.
We have to deal with these hard passages in the scripture... you have also raised other passages we need to take a look at. But either we have a contradiction in scripture or these must also be harmonized with passages like Romans 9 and Ephesians 1. Again if someone can state to me predestination is completely false and give me sound reasoning and the scriptures as to why I'm wrong, I'm all for it. I'll be completely glad to change whatever doctrine I have wrong but so far I have not been convinced.

The thing is without Christ we have no other savior so I don't see any other choice. If Christ chose us first then OK, I'm not going to argue with that because to be quite frank there is no where else to go.

John 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe.†For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.â€
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?â€
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.â€
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?†71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

 

[archangel_300]

You are imposing your understanding of "one must obey the Law perfectly" view upon the teachings of Jesus Christ. Nowhere does the Law state "give up what you own and follow me" as a part of the Law. There is absolutely NO necessity to "obey the Law perfectly" when one is under Grace. That is the nature of being a CHILD of God! Jesus was NOT stating an impossibility, His disciples were doing just that - and as it stands, none were "perfect in the ways of the Law" - they certainly did not wash their hands and other such cultic actions before eating.

Romans 2 has little to do with the rich young man and some theoretical impossibility. He was a Jew, and Romans 2 deals with pagans who happen to be SPIRITUAL Jews, circumcised of the heart. As it turns out, that is the requirment of ALL men - to become circumcised in the heart, according to Romans 1-3...

Let us not impose our already-held beliefs on the Scriptures. Nowhere does Jesus note that one must follow the Law perfectly to become justified - and to twist this passage to state the rich man's desires as only theoretically achievable is to totally ignore the men surrounding the Christ to BEGIN WITH!

Regards

Francis,

How many sins does it take to cause us to fall?
It only takes one... take for instance Adam and Eve.

James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,â€[a] you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,†also said, “Do not murder.â€[c]Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

If it is possible for us to be perfect and live a sinless life without transgressing the law one tiny bit, what can God condemn us to hell for? Nothing... we would be in a state like Adam and Eve was before they fell.

If we sin just once, God's perfect justice demands payment for that one sin no matter how great or how small. It's not just theoretically impossible... it's impossible to be perfect period.

I agree though that if we are under God's grace then we don't have to perfectly obey the law because Christ fulfilled the law for each one of us by paying for all our shortcomings. But if we are trying to attain eternal life apart from Christ and his grace, yes we need to be perfect because being perfect would mean that God would not be able to condemn us for any transgression.

 

[SonByAdoption]

But this doing good and seeking after God is all God's doing not ours. For instance this is similiar to the phrases found in the book of Jeremiah and Proverbs

Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, And those who seek me diligently will find me.

Jeremiah 29:13
And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

Where does the Bible citations you list tell us it is ALL God's doing? It appears there is some sense that man is doing the seeking here. We know that God instills the desire to seek Him out, but these Scriptures do not say that this seeking is uncontrollable or is irresistible.

[quote="archangel_300":24uu8t3d]

On the other hand the scriptures also state:

Romans 3:10-11 As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God."

Psalm 119:155
Salvation is far from the wicked,For they do not seek Your statutes.

Naturally, the wicked do not seek God, and that is what Paul is refering to in Romans 3. Certainly, the WRITER of the Psalms he cites did not consider HIMSELF wicked. If you continue to read these Psalms, you will see that is clear. Numerous men and women are called "righteous" in the OT - because they DO seek out God. Those wicked, do not seek out God. Not a single one.

Psalm 10:4
The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God;God is in none of his thoughts.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Paul often compares "natural" or "flesh" to the "spiritual attitude, as John compares the "world" to the Christian. Again, it is the same as the OT, different terms. There are those who seek out God, and there are those who do not. The former are righteous, led by God (but not irrestisbily) the later are not righteous, but are wicked, every single one of them.

So how is it possible a wicked man such as myself comes faith/repentence in Christ?

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

AGAIN, that is Paul's point in Romans 1-3. NO ONE can come to God ALONE. But it doesn't follow that God does ALL of the moving of the man. Since God desires ALL men to be saved - and all men are NOT saved, it follows that man DOES have free will, despite the grace we receive to choose God. At the end of the day, WE choose to follow, or not. If we follow, it is a work of God. If we don't, it is our refusal of God's calling.

In Romans 2, does Paul say that the saved pagan who does good deeds, that it is entirely the pagans's will? No, he says that he Spirit of God writes a law on that man's heart - and he becomes a spiritual Jew. The saved pagan who does good deeds does so because of God's grace and man's response to it. Without God's grace, man is in the Romans 1 situation.

Going back to Romans 2. The reason why we seek after doing good and seek after
honor/glory/immortality and attain eternal life as a result was because we were first declared an heir of salvation and God is drawing us.

God draws ALL men, but all men do not respond.

All man's righteousness WITHOUT GOD is "filthy rags". It does NOT follow that ALL of man's righteousness IN GOD are filthy rags. Romans 2 already admits that the saved pagan HAS the mark of God upon his works. Isaiah's often-cited and misunderstood verse does not apply here...


Regards[/quote:24uu8t3d]

Thank you so much for writing in this forum. I know it was not intended for me but I was blessed enough to benefit from it as well. I guess God does have true believers in all denominations as well even in Catholism. I was under the impression that they all believed in salvation by works but maybe I've been misinformed. You seem to have a great understanding in Salvation in faith in Christ and I learned alot. Thank you so much.

 

[francisdesales]

There is none righteous as the scripture states.

There are numerous people righteous, as the SAME Scriptures state.

You are misunderstanding Paul's point in Romans 3. He is not making a claim that men are and always will be "as filthy rags", but that man, alone, WITHOUT GOD, cannot come to God - even the Jews. LOOK at the Jewish history, which Paul is citing. Note the Psalms he cites. He is speaking of wicked Jews who pursue David, not mankind in general. Note, the Psalmist MENTIONS RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE in the very same Psalms! Thus, Paul or the Psalmist cannot mean total depravity of man.

Romans 2 speaks of righteous people, righteous pagans, does it not???

Jesus says you will not enter the Kingdom UNLESS YOUR righteous exceeds that of the Pharisees. Think about that. YOUR righteousness. Not Christ covering up your filthy rags. He never once says ANYTHING to the effect that "My righteousness will cover you in God's eyes". The whole idea is a fallacy.

We become righteous because God SAYS we are righteous. He doesn't need to pretend or ignore our status. He MAKES us righteous. Or do you doubt the power of God to bring about a NEW creation???

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

How many sins does it take to cause us to fall?
It only takes one... take for instance Adam and Eve.

They broke the LAW given to them. Only one command was given to Adam and Eve, and they broke it. They severed their relationship with God by disobeying the ONLY commandment. We aren't talking about perfectly following a Law, but a relationship with God - when we are under grace.

James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,â€[a] you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,†also said, “Do not murder.â€[c]Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

If it is possible for us to be perfect and live a sinless life without transgressing the law one tiny bit, what can God condemn us to hell for? Nothing... we would be in a state like Adam and Eve was before they fell.

I have an entire book on the meaning of perfection - the Jews do not consider perfection in the same manner as we do. We deal in absolutes, the Jews did not. THUS, a person, many people, actually, were considered RIGHTEOUS, but it would be a drastic stretch to think that each of these people actually absolutely were PERFECT in following the Law and ALL of its dictates.

We are under grace, not under the Law. A person under the Law is not relying upon God but upon himself to "earn" his way into heaven. "If I do this and this, God owes me heaven". Christians are not under the Law, but under Grace. We are saved by faith working in Love. If we falter from time to time, this Grace gives us an opportunity to repent and come back to the Father. This is not something NEW! The OT is full of God's offer of Grace to Jews.

If we sin just once, God's perfect justice demands payment for that one sin no matter how great or how small. It's not just theoretically impossible... it's impossible to be perfect period.

You are merely looking at God's Justice and its "demands", which is a human ideal, not God's. We must not forget God's Mercy - and what does James say about the two and which prevails?

I agree though that if we are under God's grace then we don't have to perfectly obey the law because Christ fulfilled the law for each one of us by paying for all our shortcomings. But if we are trying to attain eternal life apart from Christ and his grace, yes we need to be perfect because being perfect would mean that God would not be able to condemn us for any transgression.

It appears we more or less agree with this statement. I tend to focus on relationship, since that is what the Bible is about, at the end of the day. I do not agree with the concept of total depravity, nor with sola fide. But it is clear that without God, we cannot attain eternal life.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Thank you so much for writing in this forum. I know it was not intended for me but I was blessed enough to benefit from it as well. I guess God does have true believers in all denominations as well even in Catholism. I was under the impression that they all believed in salvation by works but maybe I've been misinformed. You seem to have a great understanding in Salvation in faith in Christ and I learned alot. Thank you so much.

That's why I post here - in the hopes that others will be cleared up on misinformation out there on Catholicism. Apparently, a lot of people do not have a good understanding of what we believe, and thus, reject something that is not Catholicism. People should accept or reject something with a better and truer idea of what it actually is, not a strawman version of it.

I'm happy that you found my posts of use.

Regards

 

[Mysteryman]

1. What good works will justify you ?

2. What good works will give/get you eternal life ?

Any work done in Christ, faith working in love is all that matters, according to Paul.

Why is it so difficult to see that man is TRANSFORMED, and is no longer a "pile of rags" when that man is in Christ and the Spirit of God abides in the man??? Good works, a result of a synergistic action between God and I, are indeed salvific - because they aren't my works alone! How could I brag, if GOD is moving my will and desire to do the act, without which, I CANNOT enter into eternal life???

Regards

Hi francis

Well, my question was directed towards Drew. But I am glad you made an attemtp to answer the question anyways.

Remember something here. Drew is saying that it is by your works that get you eternal life. And even though we have Christ in us, and the holy spirit upon us. This does not guarantee that a christian will always do good works. Thus according to Drew, one will not attain eternal life, because they are not doing good enough works to attain eternal life. < This kind of reasoning is based soley upon works and not on the grace of God. Also Drew believes that one can be justified by their own works. Which again i have pointed out to him that this is just not true.

You defend Drew in such a way as if what he says is correct, thus putting yourself in his corner. Now you seem to be saying that we do good works because we have Christ in us, which is the Spirit of God dwelling in us. Which is the total opposite of what Drew has been saying. As he has referenced more than once Romans 2:7 as saying that by your works you attain eternal life.

I say that the scriptures are clear, that we are saved by grace and not of works, lest any man should boast. < Do you agree ?

 

[francisdesales]

Hi francis

Well, my question was directed towards Drew. But I am glad you made an attemtp to answer the question anyways.

Remember something here. Drew is saying that it is by your works that get you eternal life. And even though we have Christ in us, and the holy spirit upon us. This does not guarantee that a christian will always do good works. Thus according to Drew, one will not attain eternal life, because they are not doing good enough works to attain eternal life.

Drew is pointing out that God's judgment of men is based upon our good works. He states that these good works are the result of God's Spirit working within us. I don't think he makes a statement on whether the Christian WILL ALWAYS do the good works. That is the point of judgment, is it not?


"Did you obey the voice within you, the desire I planted within you to give a drink of water to the thirsty? Did you pay attention to the time when I place within you a tinge of pity to feed the hungry?

DID YOU???

That is God's judgment. God is not being judged, but whether YOU heard and obeyed God's moving our spirit within us, stirring our desires to do good - OR whether we supressed them, ignored them, rationalized them away...

Romans 2 tells us that the Mosaic Law is not the yard stick that judges us, since even the pagans can be found with a Law within them, MAKING THEM spiritual Jews!!! It is fulfilling the Law of Love that will save, and the impetus is provided by our Lord. But we do have within us the power to ignore that desire to serve and to be saved.

< This kind of reasoning is based soley upon works and not on the grace of God.

As usual, Protestants of this persuasion know nothing about synergy. It's either God did everything or I did everything...

Some relationship YOU have with God... WE do things WITH God. He doesn't push us out of the way to do it all, and we are not passive bystanders. Understand we are talking about a relationship of love here...

Also Drew believes that one can be justified by their own works. Which again i have pointed out to him that this is just not true.

You are misunderstanding Drew. See above on synergy.

You defend Drew in such a way as if what he says is correct, thus putting yourself in his corner.

And???

Now you seem to be saying that we do good works because we have Christ in us, which is the Spirit of God dwelling in us. Which is the total opposite of what Drew has been saying.

I have read a lot of what Drew has said over the years, and frankly, I do not remember seeing him write that. Thus, I believe you are misunderstanding him. Perhaps he will clarify it for you, if you are nice to him... ;)

As he has referenced more than once Romans 2:7 as saying that by your works you attain eternal life.

I say that the scriptures are clear, that we are saved by grace and not of works, lest any man should boast. < Do you agree ?

I agree - but the works of Romans 2:7 are not OUR WORKS ALONE. Again, synergy, my friend. Read Romans 2:14-15. WHO is placing within that saved pagan the desire to do good? Could this pagan do it WITHOUT that Person putting within the pagan this Law?

Drew and I say "NO".

Regards

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi francis

Well, my question was directed towards Drew. But I am glad you made an attemtp to answer the question anyways.

Remember something here. Drew is saying that it is by your works that get you eternal life. And even though we have Christ in us, and the holy spirit upon us. This does not guarantee that a christian will always do good works. Thus according to Drew, one will not attain eternal life, because they are not doing good enough works to attain eternal life.

Drew is pointing out that God's judgment of men is based upon our good works. He states that these good works are the result of God's Spirit working within us. I don't think he makes a statement on whether the Christian WILL ALWAYS do the good works. That is the point of judgment, is it not?


"Did you obey the voice within you, the desire I planted within you to give a drink of water to the thirsty? Did you pay attention to the time when I place within you a tinge of pity to feed the hungry?

DID YOU???

That is God's judgment. God is not being judged, but whether YOU heard and obeyed God's moving our spirit within us, stirring our desires to do good - OR whether we supressed them, ignored them, rationalized them away...

Romans 2 tells us that the Mosaic Law is not the yard stick that judges us, since even the pagans can be found with a Law within them, MAKING THEM spiritual Jews!!! It is fulfilling the Law of Love that will save, and the impetus is provided by our Lord. But we do have within us the power to ignore that desire to serve and to be saved.

< This kind of reasoning is based soley upon works and not on the grace of God.

As usual, Protestants of this persuasion know nothing about synergy. It's either God did everything or I did everything...

Some relationship YOU have with God... WE do things WITH God. He doesn't push us out of the way to do it all, and we are not passive bystanders. Understand we are talking about a relationship of love here...

Also Drew believes that one can be justified by their own works. Which again i have pointed out to him that this is just not true.

You are misunderstanding Drew. See above on synergy.

You defend Drew in such a way as if what he says is correct, thus putting yourself in his corner.

And???

Now you seem to be saying that we do good works because we have Christ in us, which is the Spirit of God dwelling in us. Which is the total opposite of what Drew has been saying.

I have read a lot of what Drew has said over the years, and frankly, I do not remember seeing him write that. Thus, I believe you are misunderstanding him. Perhaps he will clarify it for you, if you are nice to him... ;)

As he has referenced more than once Romans 2:7 as saying that by your works you attain eternal life.

I say that the scriptures are clear, that we are saved by grace and not of works, lest any man should boast. < Do you agree ?

I agree - but the works of Romans 2:7 are not OUR WORKS ALONE. Again, synergy, my friend. Read Romans 2:14-15. WHO is placing within that saved pagan the desire to do good? Could this pagan do it WITHOUT that Person putting within the pagan this Law?

Drew and I say "NO".

Regards

Hi

I believe I will wait for Drew to answer those questions. From what I see here from your reply, at least in my view of what I read here. You both do not see eye to eye on this matter.

 

[Drew]

1. What good works will justify you ?

2. What good works will give/get you eternal life ?

1. I don't know;
2. I don't know.

But, and this is vital, I do not need to know. Paul tells us that if we have faith the Holy Spirit will generate the good works that will assure a favourable judgement at the Romans 2 judgement.

 

[Drew]

Drew is saying that it is by your works that get you eternal life.

Not quite - I am saying that that Holy Spirit will produce these works in us. You may not think that this is an important distinction but I believe that it is.

Thus according to Drew, one will not attain eternal life, because they are not doing good enough works to attain eternal life.

The only way that a Christian will not get eternal life is if they walk away from the faith. As long as their faith is there, the Holy Spirit will generate the works in the life of that person.

This kind of reasoning is based soley upon works and not on the grace of God.

No. This is simply not the case. It is all about grace precisely because without the Spirit to transform us, we will never be able to pass the Romans 2 judgement.

Also Drew believes that one can be justified by their own works. Which again i have pointed out to him that this is just not true.

You may have made an assertion but that does not make your assertion correct. As I have repeated to the point of annoyance, it is the Spirit that is responsible for the good works. You are misrepresenting me by implying that I am saying that by my own moral self-effort, I can earn my way to salvation. I am saying nothing of the kind. Here is proof of my position on this. From this very thread:

I am actually very sympathetic to this position, as should be clear from many of my posts - I have repeatedly asserted that the Holy Spirit is the driving engine behind the good works that ultimately justify.

 

[Drew]

You defend Drew in such a way as if what he says is correct, thus putting yourself in his corner. Now you seem to be saying that we do good works because we have Christ in us, which is the Spirit of God dwelling in us. Which is the total opposite of what Drew has been saying.

I am saying exactly what fds is saying. I hope my recent posts clarify this - it is the Holy Spirit working in us that generates the good works.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Drew: "The only way that a Christian will not get eternal life is if they walk away from the faith. As long as their faith is there, the Holy Spirit will generate the works in the life of that person. "


Hi Drew

I am seeing a double standard here. You are suggesting that Christians can not get eternal life if they walk away from the faith. You didn't say loose their eternal life ! You said that they will not get eternal life.

You are still preaching eternal life by works. And you could not be further from the truth !

On top of that, you are suggesting that it is by one's own Faith . And the Word of God tells us that it is not by our own faith. The Word tells us that we have the mind of Christ, and we have the faith of Christ.

You are still preaching that by works that you can attain eternal life. Which is false !

We are saved by grace and not of works , lest any man should boast !

 

[Drew]

I am seeing a double standard here. You are suggesting that Christians can not get eternal life if they walk away from the faith. You didn't say loose their eternal life ! You said that they will not get eternal life.

Well, I am not sure there is a real difference here. The point is that I believe that a Christian can indeed "walk away" from the faith and be ultimately lost.

You are still preaching eternal life by works. And you could not be further from the truth !

It would be nice if you provided an actaul argument here. Do you expect readers to simply accept the correctness of your position based on your say-so. For my part, I am simply quoting Paul. In Romans 2:6-7 he says this:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

This is a clear statement from Paul - eternal life is granted according to what we have done. You really have an issue with Paul, not me. There has been no workable argument presented as to why we should not take Paul at his word here. Or, in Romans 8 for that matter where Paul says that it is by "walking in the Spirit" that we get life.

Your approach to Romans 2 is frankly outrageous and indefensible – you claim that you have privileged insight – that no one else has – that the original Greek text of these verses is different from what all the scholars claim.

 

[Drew]

On top of that, you are suggesting that it is by one's own Faith . And the Word of God tells us that it is not by our own faith. The Word tells us that we have the mind of Christ, and we have the faith of Christ.

You are still preaching that by works that you can attain eternal life. Which is false !

We are saved by grace and not of works , lest any man should boast !

First, I agree that our faith is substantially a gift.

Second, you are not correctly understanding Ephesians 2:8-9. In that text, Paul does not contradict what he clearly has asserted in Romans 2 (and Romans 8 and 2 Corinthians 5) - that ultimate salvation is indeed based on good works. In Ephesians 2:8-9, Paul does not deny salvation by good works, he denies salvation by the works of the Law of Moses - the Torah.

The material that follows 2:8-10 makes no sense if "good works" are in view in 2:8-10. More specifically, if the justification value of "good works" is being denied, why does Paul use a "therefore" transitional in verse 11 to conclude that the Gentile now has access to the covenant promises (including, of course, final justification) specifically because a dividing line between Jew and Gentile has been dissolved? After all, the dividing line is, of course, not the “good works†line, it is the “works of Torah†line.

There is indeed a sense in which the standard reformed reading of this could be salvaged (although this ultimately does not work as we will shortly see). If Paul says “no one is justified by good works, therefore remember that the Jew-Gentile barrier has been destroyedâ€, he could mean that there is some difference between the Jew and the Gentile in respect to doing good works, but this difference is irrelevant since good works do not justify.

In other words, he could be saying: "Listen you Gentiles, you need not do the good works that the Jews are doing to be saved since good works do not save anyway, therefore...you are not foreigners to the covenants of the promise, etc., etc.)â€

But, of course, Paul does not believe this - he believes that Jew and Gentile alike are in sin. So it makes no sense for Paul, if he has really asserted that "good works" do not save, to then say "therefore you Gentiles now have hope since the barrier between Jew and Gentile has been destroyed, etc. etc." Why does this not make sense? Obviously, because Jew and Gentile are on equal footing in respect to "good works" – neither does enough good works to save.

Paul is therefore obviously talking about the works of Torah in 2:8-10. Then the "therefore" stuff makes sense since Torah is indeed the thing that divides Jew from Gentile and is the basis for the Gentile believing that he is on the outside in respect to the covenant promises.