Ignoring Romans 2: An Error of Exegisis

[archangel_300]

There is none righteous as the scripture states.

There are numerous people righteous, as the SAME Scriptures state.

You are misunderstanding Paul's point in Romans 3. He is not making a claim that men are and always will be "as filthy rags", but that man, alone, WITHOUT GOD, cannot come to God - even the Jews. LOOK at the Jewish history, which Paul is citing. Note the Psalms he cites. He is speaking of wicked Jews who pursue David, not mankind in general. Note, the Psalmist MENTIONS RIGHTEOUS PEOPLE in the very same Psalms! Thus, Paul or the Psalmist cannot mean total depravity of man.

Romans 2 speaks of righteous people, righteous pagans, does it not???

Jesus says you will not enter the Kingdom UNLESS YOUR righteous exceeds that of the Pharisees. Think about that. YOUR righteousness. Not Christ covering up your filthy rags. He never once says ANYTHING to the effect that "My righteousness will cover you in God's eyes". The whole idea is a fallacy.

We become righteous because God SAYS we are righteous. He doesn't need to pretend or ignore our status. He MAKES us righteous. Or do you doubt the power of God to bring about a NEW creation???

Regards

Francis, I actually AGREE that man apart from God cannot come to God.
But this refers to ALL mankind... not just a specific set of people.

Look at the New Testament at Jesus' words:

Matthew 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good[e] Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?†17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good?[f] No one is good but One, that is, God.[g] But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.â€

This man came to Jesus thinking mankind can be good in some fashion and there could be some merit by which we could inherit eternal life. Christ response was ALL mankind is NOT good and HE is the only one that is GOOD since He was GOD.

I agree that God makes us righteous and he declares believers as being righteous but how do you suppose God makes us righteous??

 

[Mysteryman]

I am seeing a double standard here. You are suggesting that Christians can not get eternal life if they walk away from the faith. You didn't say loose their eternal life ! You said that they will not get eternal life.

Well, I am not sure there is a real difference here. The point is that I believe that a Christian can indeed "walk away" from the faith and be ultimately lost.

You are still preaching eternal life by works. And you could not be further from the truth !

It would be nice if you provided an actaul argument here. Do you expect readers to simply accept the correctness of your position based on your say-so. For my part, I am simply quoting Paul. In Romans 2:6-7 he says this:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

This is a clear statement from Paul - eternal life is granted according to what we have done. You really have an issue with Paul, not me. There has been no workable argument presented as to why we should not take Paul at his word here. Or, in Romans 8 for that matter where Paul says that it is by "walking in the Spirit" that we get life.

Your approach to Romans 2 is frankly outrageous and indefensible – you claim that you have privileged insight – that no one else has – that the original Greek text of these verses is different from what all the scholars claim.

Hi

There are two serious problems with you comments here.

1. You assert that Romans 2:7 is exactly how Paul worded his comments, because you believe that the translation is exactly as Paul spoke. Thus ignoring all the other scriptures that refute your stance !

2. You conclude or should I say come to your conclusion, based soley upon what you believe and not what the scriptures tell us.

And I might add, that Romans 8 does not say what you claim !

Romans 8 tells us that we who have the Spirit of Christ in us, do mind the things of the Spirit. Which means we will not fail ! Only the carnal mind is enmity against God. And Paul tells us in Romans 8:9 that we are not of the flesh, but of the Spirit of God. And only those who do not have the Spirit of God will mind the things of the flesh. And if you have the Spirit of God , you are led by the Spirit of God. And if you have the Spirit of God, you are sons of God. Romans 8:17 says "if" you are children, meaning , if you have the Spirit of Christ in you, then you are heirs of God and joint - heirs with Christ. And the only thing one can loose is a part or all of their inheritance. I don't believe one will loose all of their inheritance, unless they fully walk away from walking in righteousness . This is a part of the free will that we still have, and remain to have. Salvation unto eternal life was a free gift. One does not earn it ! And especially one does not earn eternal life by their good works ! Either you have eternal life , because God gave you of the promise seed, or you don't have it.

All the previous scriptures I have given you show this. Especially I Corinth. 3:13 - 15. Fire tries every mans work. And if by fire one was to suffer loss, yet they themselves will still be saved unto eternal life.

You might not agree with what I just shared with you. Which is your choice ! < Free will

But , there is no logical reason that can be derived from the scriptures which shows us that we get eternal life by our works !

God told us christians, that we were chosen from before the foundations of the earth. And that we were chosen to be holy and without blame, in Christ in love. Ephesians 1:4 - 14 We were predestined. This is something you can not earn ! And we have (past tense) been redeemed - verse 7

 

[Drew]

Look at the New Testament at Jesus' words:

Matthew 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good[e] Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?†17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good?[f] No one is good but One, that is, God.[g] But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.â€

This man came to Jesus thinking mankind can be good in some fashion and there could be some merit by which we could inherit eternal life. Christ response was ALL mankind is NOT good and HE is the only one that is GOOD since He was GOD.

You are not telling the whole story. Jesus goes on to say:

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Jesus is not denying what Paul asserts in Romans 2. Jesus is pointing out the futility of man achieving salvation through unaided moral self-effort. But note how what Jesus says coheres perfectly with what Paul says.

Pauls says that there will be those who will be given eternal life because they "persisting in doing good". Fine.

Note how Jesus can be understood as saying "Yes, man is indeed in a hopeless state where he cannot do good. But, but, but - even though man is in such a state, the man who accepts God can be transformed into a person who can indeed go good.

 

[Drew]

There are two serious problems with you comments here.

1. You assert that Romans 2:7 is exactly how Paul worded his comments, because you believe that the translation is exactly as Paul spoke. Thus ignoring all the other scriptures that refute your stance !

Which scriptures refute what Paul said in Romans 2:7? Please be specific. Not Ephesians 2: 8-9. You have already been shown that Paul is not denying salvation by doing good works, he denies salvation by doing the works of the Law of Moses. Two entirely different issues.

2. You conclude or should I say come to your conclusion, based soley upon what you believe and not what the scriptures tell us.

This really just begs the question. I believe that I have successfully addressed all of the scriptures that you claim make Paul mistaken in what he says in Romans 2 (and that you think Paul slipped up in Romans 2 is another issue unto itself, but we'll let that pass).

No one who is worth convincing is going to read your statement and accept it at face value. The intelligent reader will know that I have provided counter-arguments to all your claims. I do not merely make assertions - I back them up with an actual case. Look at Ephesians 2:8-9. I provided a detailed and comprehensive counter-argument to your belief that Paul denies justification by good works.

Do you not feel any obligation at all to engage that argument? Do you think the reader will not notice that you have not dealt with my argument? Do you think that the reader will not know that if Paul is not denying justification by good works in Romans 2, then my position is simply not vulnerable to your unargued point that Paul denies justification by good works in that text?

 

[Drew]

And I might add, that Romans 8 does not say what you claim !

Romans 8 tells us that we who have the Spirit of Christ in us, do mind the things of the Spirit. Which means we will not fail ! Only the carnal mind is enmity against God. And Paul tells us in Romans 8:9 that we are not of the flesh, but of the Spirit of God. And only those who do not have the Spirit of God will mind the things of the flesh. And if you have the Spirit of God , you are led by the Spirit of God. And if you have the Spirit of God, you are sons of God.

You have not demonstrated an error in my position on Romans 8. My position on Romans 8 is that it coheres perfectly with Romans 2 - both affirm that ultimate salvation is based on "how your life is lived".

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live,...

This statement is deeply problematic for you. No doubt, you will want to say that "walking in the Spirit" determines rewards, not salvation itelf. But, of course, this is not what Paul says. Faithful attention to the details is important. It is life itself - clearly an allusion to ultimate salvation - that is at issue here.

And Paul tells us here exactly what he tells us in Romans 2 - whether we get life or not depends on "what we do". Granted, in Roman 2, Paul does not explicitly talk about the role of the Spirit.

 

[Mysteryman]

There are two serious problems with you comments here.

1. You assert that Romans 2:7 is exactly how Paul worded his comments, because you believe that the translation is exactly as Paul spoke. Thus ignoring all the other scriptures that refute your stance !

Which scriptures refute what Paul said in Romans 2:7? Please be specific. Not Ephesians 2: 8-9. You have already been shown that Paul is not denying salvation by doing good works, he denies salvation by doing the works of the Law of Moses. Two entirely different issues.

2. You conclude or should I say come to your conclusion, based soley upon what you believe and not what the scriptures tell us.

This really just begs the question. I believe that I have successfully addressed all of the scriptures that you claim make Paul mistaken in what he says in Romans 2 (and that you think Paul slipped up in Romans 2 is another issue unto itself, but we'll let that pass).

No one who is worth convincing is going to read your statement and accept it at face value. The intelligent reader will know that I have provided counter-arguments to all your claims. I do not merely make assertions - I back them up with an actual case. Look at Ephesians 2:8-9. I provided a detailed and comprehensive counter-argument to your belief that Paul denies justification by good works.

Do you not feel any obligation at all to engage that argument? Do you think the reader will not notice that you have not dealt with my argument? Do you think that the reader will not know that if Paul is not denying justification by good works in Romans 2, then my position is simply not vulnerable to your unargued point that Paul denies justification by good works in that text?

HI

You have only convinced yourself and no one else here, that I am sure of. As far as the others who read what we are discussing, why not leave that up to them ? You are not their spokesperson , are you ?

As far as Ephesians 2:8 & 9 , I feel it is flagrant of you, to not put enough emphasis on verse 10 as you should have done.

Verse 10 - "For we are his workmanship (not our own workmanship), created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them"

And you keep jumping back and forth from works that justify one's self, and works that will attain eternal life. Would you care to please keep on track just for the sake of a logical conversation ?

Both - your good works will not justify you, nor gain you eternal life. This God has already done for us. Now we need to continue to walk in them. Not attain them !

I continually see a double standard in you comments !

Romans 5:9 - "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from the wrath through him"

Romans 8:30 - "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called : and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified"

 

[Drew]

All the previous scriptures I have given you show this. Especially I Corinth. 3:13 - 15. Fire tries every mans work. And if by fire one was to suffer loss, yet they themselves will still be saved unto eternal life.

Not true to the context. Paul is specifically addressing what will happen to church leaders who are not faithful to their commission. If they do not lead in the right way, they will not lose ultimate salvation for that specific failure. Again, the details count - I know that you might "want" this text to be a claim that believers generally can screw up and still be saved. But the details of the text show that Paul is focused on church leaders:

What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds.....

 

[Mysteryman]

All the previous scriptures I have given you show this. Especially I Corinth. 3:13 - 15. Fire tries every mans work. And if by fire one was to suffer loss, yet they themselves will still be saved unto eternal life.

Not true to the context. Paul is specifically addressing what will happen to church leaders who are not faithful to their commission. If they do not lead in the right way, they will not lose ultimate salvation for that specific failure. Again, the details count - I know that you might "want" this text to be a claim that believers generally can screw up and still be saved. But the details of the text show that Paul is focused on church leaders:

What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds.....

Hi

I never mentioned verses 6 - 10. And if you are claiming that these verses are talking about leadership , wow, do you have a lot to learn !

 

[Drew]

As far as Ephesians 2:8 & 9 , I feel it is flagrant of you, to not put enough emphasis on verse 10 as you should have done.

Verse 10 - "For we are his workmanship (not our own workmanship), created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them"

Yes we are to do good works. I am not sure why you think this statement denies ultimate justification by good works. But you have ignored my argument, which shows that, in verses 8 and 9 Paul is not denying justification by good works, he is denying justification by doing the works of the Law of Moses.

So he is not, after all, contradicting his Romans 2 assertion that ultimate justification is based on good works.

And you keep jumping back and forth from works that justify one's self, and works that will attain eternal life. Would you care to please keep on track just for the sake of a logical conversation ?

Justification and salvation are indeed different concepts. But for the purpose of this conversation, this difference is immaterial. The person who is justified will indeed be ultimately saved. So, as Paul says, both justification and salvation are based on "good works".

Both - your good works will not justify you, nor gain you eternal life. This God has already done for us. Now we need to continue to walk in them. Not attain them !

You are simply begging the question. You cannot simply claim your position - you need to make the relevant arguments. Yes, God has "done this for us" but in the specific sense that by grace He gives us the Spirit which produces the good works that will justify us (and save us) at the Romans 2 judgement.

 

[Drew]

I never mentioned verses 6 - 10. And if you are claiming that these verses are talking about leadership , wow, do you have a lot to learn !

Those verses are clearly about church leadership:

Who is Appollos? Who is Paul? They are church leaders. Is Paul writing about how they live their lives in general? No. He is talking about their care and nurturance of the flock: Again:

What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds.

This is really quite clear - Paul is talking about people charged with the responsibility of building the church. And he goes on to say that if they fail in that commission, their eternal salvation is not at risk.

Paul is (thankfully) not contradicting what he has written in Romans 2 - that eternal life is granted based on good works.

 

[Mysteryman]

I never mentioned verses 6 - 10. And if you are claiming that these verses are talking about leadership , wow, do you have a lot to learn !

Those verses are clearly about church leadership:

Who is Appollos? Who is Paul? They are church leaders. Is Paul writing about how they live their lives in general? No. He is talking about their care and nurturance of the flock: Again:

What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds.

This is really quite clear - Paul is talking about people charged with the responsibility of building the church. And he goes on to say that if they fail in that commission, their eternal salvation is not at risk.

Paul is (thankfully) not contradicting what he has written in Romans 2 - that eternal life is granted based on good works.

Hi

I Corinth. chapter 3 is not addressed to church leaders ! First and second Timothy is, so go there and read about church leadership. Your truly need to - to show yourself approved of God.

 

[francisdesales]

Francis, I actually AGREE that man apart from God cannot come to God. But this refers to ALL mankind... not just a specific set of people.

I agree, I am not sure how you thought I was saying otherwise. No one has a chance at salvation without God.

I believe that is THE point of Romans 1-3. NO man can come to God apart from God. Even the Jews with their Law - proof is Romans 3:1-8. Romans 3:9 sums up the position.

I agree that God makes us righteous and he declares believers as being righteous but how do you suppose God makes us righteous??

God makes us righteous by sending His Holy Spirit to us. Righteousness - obedience to God - is the tell-tale sign given by the Sacred Scriptures that the Spirit of God is INDEED within us (not just because someone said so...)

The righteous person is one obedient to God's commands - and this righteousness stems from God, not from our OWN works, but is seen as a synergistic work involving me AND God. This is a relationship, and every relationship takes two people to contribute in some manner to make it work.

There is thus no need to form the "either/or" argument. It is a "God and I" relationship.

I contribute by saying "let it be done to me according to your word". And at the end, I will be judged on how often I say this, and allow God to work through my works.

Regards

 

[Drew]

On the flawed argument that Eph 2:8-9 denies justification by good works.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast

People simply assume that works = "good works". Is this assumption justified? No it is not. We have rock-solid evidence that Paul deploys the phrase "works" in relation to the Law of Moses:

For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, " CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

Does this mean that Paul is necessarily using the term "works" in Ephesians 2:8-9 to deny that the works of the Law of Moses (and not good works) are salvific?

Not necessarily. But when you read the whole chapter, it becomes manifestly true that it is indeed the works of the Law of Moses whose salvific power is being denied.

Which no doubt explains why my frequent arguments about this are simply ignored - to accept the fact that it is the works of the Law of Moses in view in Ephesians 2:9 undercuts one of the primary arguments against what Paul says in Romans 2 - and which so many evangelicals gloss over - that ultimate salvation is indeed based on good works.

 

[francisdesales]

On the flawed argument that Eph 2:8-9 denies justification by good works.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast

People simply assume that works = "good works". Is this assumption justified? No it is not. We have rock-solid evidence that Paul deploys the phrase "works" in relation to the Law of Moses:

Drew,

EVEN IF Paul is not speaking about the Mosaic Law, I think our interlocutors continue to forget that God deals with man in a relational manner. Thus, I bypass the argument and go further:

It is a strange God who claims to be love, and then pushes us out of the way and "doing it Himself". This is not how love works. Love is patient. It draws the beloved to Itself. There is synergy. Thus, the false dichotomy that is present, the "either/or" - either God does it all or man does it all.

Even if Paul means "any work", we certainly cannot boast, since no one moves within themselves the ability to do a good deed. Only God can place those thoughts there - so we certainly cannot boast, since God is our partner, our aid, our rock of salvation.

Regards

 

[Drew]

I want to address Romans 4:4-5, a text often used to argue that Paul cannot have meant what he wrote in Romans 2 (and Romans 8 for that matter) about how eternal life is granted according to “how we liveâ€. Here is the relevant material, and I include stuff from the end of Romans 3 for context – remember, it is not Paul who inserts “chapter breaksâ€:

27Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith (is one. 31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we (establish the Law. 1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, …

A vital point is to note that context clearly shows that the “works†in 4:2 are the works of the Law of Moses. In 3:28, Paul talks about how men are not justified by the works of the Law. It should be clear that this is a reference to the Law of Moses, not to “good works†generally. But even if this were not clear from 3:28, 3:29 seals the deal – Paul is talking about the works of the Law of Moses since the Jew who believes that the works of the Law of Moses justifies could claim that the Gentile, who is not under the Law of Moses, would be excluded from justification. And Paul clearly wants to argue that the Gentile is also a candidate for justification.

So there is really no doubt – Paul is making an argument about the Law of Moses, not good works in general. So why anybody thinks 4:2 is about “good works†is a mystery to me – Paul does not arbitrarily change topics without notice. No - in 4:2 Paul says Abraham was not justified by doing the works of the Law of Moses.

So now we come to the workman. I trust we all understand that this is a metaphor. As such, it cannot be taken literally in all its details – it is a comparison, like all metaphors. Paul has just finished arguing that Abraham, like any other Jew, cannot claim that God “owes†justification to the Jew, and only the Jew, in virtue of the cultural marker of the Law of Moses. The issue to this point is not “does someone who does good works have a claim on Godâ€, it is “does the Jew – the one who is under the Law of Moses – have a claim on Godâ€.

The workman expects to be paid because he has done something. Fine. What is the parallel to Abraham? The parallel is that Abraham might think he has claim on justification because of his obedience to the Law of Moses, not because he has done “good worksâ€. Paul is no doubt spinning in his grave, wondering how people have ignored the flow of the argument and instead impose their own “Paul mus be denying justification by good works†scheme onto his text.

 

[archangel_300]

God makes us righteous by sending His Holy Spirit to us. Righteousness - obedience to God - is the tell-tale sign given by the Sacred Scriptures that the Spirit of God is INDEED within us (not just because someone said so...)

I definitely agree with this statement.

The righteous person is one obedient to God's commands - and this righteousness stems from God, not from our OWN works, but is seen as a synergistic work involving me AND God. This is a relationship, and every relationship takes two people to contribute in some manner to make it work.

There is thus no need to form the "either/or" argument. It is a "God and I" relationship.

I contribute by saying "let it be done to me according to your word". And at the end, I will be judged on how often I say this, and allow God to work through my works.

Regards

I tend to agree with your statement here. But the phrase "And at the end, I will be judged on how often I say this" confuses me.

From previous posts it sounds like you are talking about a works based gospel and that's what I have to disagree with. I think it needs to be made clear that yes if we are saved we WILL produce good works.
If we don't have this fruit in our lives it my potentially mean we have never been saved in the first place and our "faith" is dead faith... But with that being said we have to be careful not to fall into the trap of saying we need to do good works in order to be saved. We are first saved and then we will produce good works as the evidence we have been given faith. In *theory* a person can be truly saved and have no good works to show for. The thing is faith/salvation come first and then we produce works of righteousness.

 

[glorydaz]

From previous posts it sounds like you are talking about a works based gospel and that's what I have to disagree with. I think it needs to be made clear that yes if we are saved we WILL produce good works.
If we don't have this fruit in our lives it my potentially mean we have never been saved in the first place and our "faith" is dead faith... But with that being said we have to be careful not to fall into the trap of saying we need to do good works in order to be saved. We are first saved and then we will produce good works as the evidence we have been given faith. In *theory* a person can be truly saved and have no good works to show for. The thing is faith/salvation come first and then we produce works of righteousness.

Amen...it's so simple and people try to complicate the issue. Man's good works don't get him saved...they follow salvation. The horse must come before the cart.

 

[Mysteryman]

I never mentioned verses 6 - 10. And if you are claiming that these verses are talking about leadership , wow, do you have a lot to learn !

Those verses are clearly about church leadership:

Who is Appollos? Who is Paul? They are church leaders. Is Paul writing about how they live their lives in general? No. He is talking about their care and nurturance of the flock: Again:

What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds.

This is really quite clear - Paul is talking about people charged with the responsibility of building the church. And he goes on to say that if they fail in that commission, their eternal salvation is not at risk.

Paul is (thankfully) not contradicting what he has written in Romans 2 - that eternal life is granted based on good works.

Hi

I will say this once again ! I Corinth. chapter 3 is not about leadership ! It is Paul talking to the church members in Corinth. Verses 13 - 16 is talking to the believer, and how they build thereon. If his works can be tried by fire, he could suffer loss. Yet , he himself is saved by fire. This is because , as Paul points out in verse 16 - "Know ye not, that ye are the temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwells in you? "

Salvation is by grace , not of works , lest any man should boast ! !

 

[Drew]

I will say this once again ! I Corinth. chapter 3 is not about leadership !

You can say this all you like, the evidence of the text says otherwise:

I gave you milk, not solid food,....

A clear reference to Paul as teacher and leader.....

Are you not acting like mere men? 4For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men? 5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe

What is Paul writing about here? - the role of himself and Apollos as leaders in the church.

6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.]

Again, clear allusions to the function of Paul and Apollos in building the church. As much as you need this material to say otherwise to salvage your argument, there is nothing at all here about issues of personal morality or generel behaviour - this is an analysis of the leadership function in the church.

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

More of the same, this is all about building the church.

Do you not realize the necessity of providence evidence to support your case? Do you think readers will not see that all the references in this material are focused on the issue of leadership?

 

[Drew]

Salvation is by grace , not of works , lest any man should boast ! !

I have already provided a detailed argument that you are misreading Eph 2:8-9 on page 6 of this very thread. The issue there is the boast in doing the works of Torah.

You seem to think that you can simply ignore arguments that challenge your position.

Why is that? Do you have some special status that elevates you to the point where you simply do not have to engage arguments that are uncomfortable for you?

Direct question: What is your response to my arguments about Eph 2:8-9?