Bible Study II Peter 2:1

[JM]

"II Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

It should be clear, these false teachers are unsaved. They are compared to dogs and pigs, not to sheep as believers are (see 2 Peter 2:22). These people are described in Jude 19 as being "devoid of the Spirit." If a person does not have the Spirit of God within, he is not a child of God (see Romans 8:9). He may seem to be saved and even become a member or an officer in the church, but eventually, the true nature will be shown, they will deny the Lord in same way.

This passage is NOT discussing the atonement of Christ, when Peter writes about the Lord that "bought them" he is not writing of Christs blood atonement. Peter writes this letter to the Jew (hold on, this isn't dispey theology) who was not a Christian, so "the Lord" would be in refer to God the Father and not the Lord Jesus Christ for the Jews were "bought" by God in the Exodus.

James White makes the argument that in the Greek, "Lord" is not used for Jesus. It is also translated as 'Master' and may be used to refer to Satan.

God bless,

Jason :smt006

 

[serapha]

James White makes the argument that in the Greek, "Lord" is not used for Jesus. It is also translated as 'Master' and may be used to refer to Satan.

God bless,

Jason :smt006

Hi there!

:smt039

kai ton despothn (Master) is the same term used in Jude 1:4 for Jesus Christ... It's a word that could be translated into modern English as the "head hauncho"... would that be satan or Christ?


~serapha~

 

[JM]

You'd have to ask someone who speaks Greek (or James White, but I don't see this affecting my OP), according to Strongs the word is kurios in the Greek...which means 'he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord.' I think this fits in nicely with the hardening of Pharoh's heart, the loss of the non elect, etc. For it also means: the possessor and disposer of a thing.

Thanks.

 

[JM]

James White makes the argument that in the Greek, "Lord" is not used for Jesus. It is also translated as 'Master' and may be used to refer to Satan.

God bless,

Jason :smt006

Hi there!

:smt039

kai ton despothn (Master) is the same term used in Jude 1:4 for Jesus Christ... It's a word that could be translated into modern English as the "head hauncho"... would that be satan or Christ?


~serapha~

I guess it comes down to the age old question, are false teachers saved? I say no, based on my study of Scripture.

PS: "In five out of the ten occurrences of the word in the New Testament it means master of the household. Originally, it indicates absolute, unrestricted authority, so that the Greeks refused the title to any but the gods. In the New Testament despothv and kuriov are used interchangeably of God, and of masters of servants." http://www.godrules.net/library/robert/robert2pet2.htm

 

[Dean]

Wow, I stumble on another tortured defense of Limited Atonement. Where to begin...

"They are compared to dogs and pigs, not to sheep as believers are (see 2 Peter 2:22)."

1) Jesus himself compares all non-Jews to "dogs" when speaking with the woman at the well. Are you Jewish? Are you saved?

"These people are described in Jude 19 as being "devoid of the Spirit." If a person does not have the Spirit of God within, he is not a child of God (see Romans 8:9)."

2) We were ALL formerly children of darkness, slaves of our sinful nature, and devoid of God's Spirit. The CALVINIST principle of TOTAL DEPRAVITY insists on it. Perhaps you are arguing Perserverence of the Saints, but the fact that these teachers are CURRENTLY unsaved does not support Limited Atonement. Quite the contrary:Peter is SAYING they are unsaved, i.e. that they deny the Lord...(wait for it)...who BOUGHT THEM!


"He may seem to be saved and even become a member or an officer in the church, but eventually, the true nature will be shown, they will deny the Lord in same way."

3) Again, you not being an Arminian, understand that their is nothing in their "true nature" that makes them "accept or deny the Lord". Again, Total Depravity 101. Peter denied the Lord, I think.

"This passage is NOT discussing the atonement of Christ, when Peter writes about the Lord that "bought them" he is not writing of Christs blood atonement. Peter writes this letter to the Jew (hold on, this isn't dispey theology) who was not a Christian, so "the Lord" would be in refer to God the Father and not the Lord Jesus Christ for the Jews were "bought" by God in the Exodus

4) INTERESTING CLAIM, Jason. To investigate it, I undertook many long hours of study, turning the page of my Bible all...the...way...back... to the BEGINNING OF THE LETTER, to the greeting Peter gives. Now, this may not hold water, because it's in English, not Greek, but here's how it reads:

2 Peter 1:1 "Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: 2Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. "

Uhhh...doesn't SOUND like "Jews who weren't Christians", but then, I don't know the Greek.

Actually, your only shot to torture Limited Atonement out of that passage was to abandon your initial claim that these teachers were unsaved. YES, they were SAVED, Jesus bought them, and these members of the Elect appeared to "fall away" for a time, but God will ultimately brings them back.

But you reached another conclusion, "I guess it comes down to the age old question, are false teachers saved? I say no, based on my study of Scripture."

And I wholeheartedly agree. They are not saved, yet Jesus bought them. Q.E.D. He bought us all, Jason. Embrace it, Rejoice in it, Shout it to your (non-elect) neighbor!

"And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.

 

[destiny]

Then the word "saved" has no meaning Dean. Saved from what?

and I wholeheartedly agree. They are not saved, yet Jesus bought them. Q.E.D. He bought us all, Jason. Embrace it, Rejoice in it, Shout it to your (non-elect) neighbor!

Scripture is clear
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21).
"Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up" (Matthew 15:13).

Moslems, Jews, pagans, and even agnostics, infidels, and atheists. Are these people 'bought' in the end who live apart from Christ? If so then we have no use for the word "saved" or "salvation" because there was never anything to be saved from, because theres nothing to be salvaged from, we've all obtained it already according to what you are saying. If I really believed that I would have my cake and eat it too.

 

[Dean]

Destiny, let me ask you a i) personal question and a ii) doctrinal question.

i) What were YOU saved from?

ii) Had Jesus BOUGHT YOU prior to your coming to know what he had done, and love him and worship and glorify him for it?

 

[destiny]

Destiny, let me ask you a i) personal question and a ii) doctrinal question.

i) What were YOU saved from?

ii) Had Jesus BOUGHT YOU prior to your coming to know what he had done, and love him and worship and glorify him for it?

Not literally but in my heart, I was the person bleeding and dying on the Jericho road. So in that sense I was saved from myself and from the assignment satan had for me.
In another sense I was saved from eternal seperation from God which would have ultimately happened had I continued to reject his call until I drew my last breath.
God is my Daddy, I love every aspect of His character. I obey him because I love him and want to please Him, yet because of my sin nature there are times that are likened to stretching a rubberband as far as you can stretch it and then allowing it to snap back just before it breaks. Sometime it's the fear and respect I have for my father that causes me to snap back, COUPLED with knowing in his presense is life, peace, love, and where all good things are.
I love who He is, and I revere Him!!
You see, it's really not that important to me whether we burn or not, it's important for me to respect and honor the one who has the power that His word says He alone has. It's not really that important whether you believe someone will burn for all eternity or not Dean. It's important that you don't teach a person that they are bought no matter how they live or what they do less you take away from an important characteristic of a Holy God, and by so doing you cause a person to stumble. I love God because he loved me first by revealing Himself to me, and then coming to live inside my heart, but I also have to respect and fear this God unless I find myself taking advantage of Him as a child would a parent who demanded no respect.
God revealed Himself to us in our spirit and through His word, His entire character is revealed in His written word. It is very clear what a life of rejecting God will lead to. The word says the ones who came late recieved the same wages, but they CAME. I wouldn't dare to say idolaters, atheists, infidels, and unbelievers who reject Him until the end are bought, thats a doctrine that will cause others to stumble and requires no resurrection life. We live because we are partakers of His death, so He raised us into new life.
People need the total package of Gods charcteristics in order to love and respect Him as a Holy and just God.

 

[Restin]

True or False

I guess it comes down to the age old question, are false teachers saved? I say no, based on my study of Scripture.

• Romans 3:12
  THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE." NASU

I believed Rom 3:12, to say all of us are/have been spiritually false teachers!
Sooooo, that "age old question, are false teachers saved?" needs a face-lift.
OR, should I say a face-turn-about--

Know what is TRUE, and the FALSE will become evident.

........Restin

 

[JM]

Who is the Lord in this passage?

 

[Restin]

The Spirit of the Lord

Who is the Lord in this passage?

• Romans 3:4
  let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,
  
  "THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS,
  AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED."
  
  NASU

Jesus is Lord, spiritually speaking -- man is a liar -- in the day of judgment!

..........Restin

 

[JM]

Again, who is the Lord in THIS passage?

 

[Adams son]

"
This passage is NOT discussing the atonement of Christ, when Peter writes about the Lord that "bought them" he is not writing of Christs blood atonement. Peter writes this letter to the Jew (hold on, this isn't dispey theology) who was not a Christian, so "the Lord" would be in refer to God the Father and not the Lord Jesus Christ for the Jews were "bought" by God in the Exodus.

You are quite wrong. Read chapter 1 and find out to whom Peter is writing.

You may also wish to consider the following facts:

1. The Master had bought (agorazo) them. They were clearly true Christians.

Now Calvinists have a little maneuver they have designed which they sometimes try to implement to try and avoid the obvious implications of this passage. First they will point out that the word despotes ("Master") is never used in the New Testament to refer to Christ but only to God the Father (note verse 4). With this in mind they proceed to the word "bought" which is used to denote a temporal deliverance of the Israelites from Egypt (Dt 32:6). Arguing that God the Father could not have bought these false prophets because it was the blood of Christ which bought real Christians and seizing upon the fact that the Israelite exodus was only a temporal deliverance, they may claim these false prophets only had a temporal but not enduring "saving faith." Therefore, they claim that this passage has nothing to do with Christians denying Christ. As we shall now see, this entire Contrivance is nothing but a means to avoid Peter's teaching.

Now, before we prove the Calvinist wrong on this point let us think about something crucial here. Is the Calvinist now betratying his own heart and claiming that Old Testament Israelites were not born again? If so, then what shall he do with his doctrine of Total Depravity? For it is necessary for him to claim Old Testament Jews were also born again to maintain that doctrine. Were some unregenerate men also bought? If they were not born again how was it they were obeying God when they crossed the Red Sea and then later denied God? In any event, the Calvinist is caught in his own dilemma. He wants to say these Old Testament folks were born again on one hand but here claim they only received temporal deliverance on the hand. So which is it? Moreover, if we do not even bring up this issue, how is it that denying God in one sense is somehow acceptable, but denying God in another is not? It is obvious this argument concocted by Calvinists falls apart before it begins.

First, let us recognize that Peter is indeed referring to false teachers during the time of the exodus. If we look to the book of Jude, which is essentially a condensed version of 2 Peter, we find an identical message:

"For certain men stole in, those of old having been written before to this judgment, ungodly ones perverting the grace of our God into unbridled lust, and denying the only Master God and our Lord Jesus Christ. But I intend to remind you, you once knowing these things, that the Lord having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, in the second place destroyed the ones not believing" (Jude 4-5),

Here we do indeed clarify that Peter and Jude are discussing false teachers of the Old Testament. However, also notice here that these men also are said to have denied Jesus Christ. The Calvinist claim simply does not pan out.

Peter is presenting a typology of false prophets among the Israelites in those days as a pattern of those false prophets among the church in these days. In fact, Peter says explicitly there were false prophets then just as there will be false prophets among you and it is these false prophets of his day who are denying the Master who bought them.

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies even denying the Master who bought them.

What Peter is obviously doing here is comparing the Israelite exodus and the false prophets who arose and denied God and Christ at that time, with the church's deliverance and false prophets who arise and deny Christ in this time. Just as God their Master had "bought" the Israelites from Egypt so also Christ had "bought" these Christians. He is the Passover Lamb. It is just a little bit ridiculous to assume that Peter has only the Israelite false prophets in mind in chapter 2 and is warning the Christians about them (they were all dead).

"You were bought (agorazo) with a price. So glorify God in your body" (1 Corinthians 6:20).

"You were bought (agorazo) at a price; do not become slaves of men" (1 Corinthians 7:23).

"These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased (agorazo) from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb" (Revelation 14:4).

What is so interesting here is that Calvinists elsewhere take passages like this to mean Christ purchased "the elect" from among men. But here they do a 180 degree turnabout when the very same thing is being discussed because it does not suit their agenda. To get around this problem they may actually resort to redefining the terms used in this passage in order to escape their dilemma.

Ask yourself this simple question. WHY would Peter be warning Christians of his day to beware of false prophets that lived 1500 years before? No, he is warning Christians about false prophets of his own time and that these false prophets are those who have apoostasized from Christ.


2. The false prophets Peter has in mind had escaped the corruption of the world.

"For if after they have escaped the corruption of the world" (2:20).

This is the identical to the terminology Peter earlier used of those who have become Christians in the very same letter:

"Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these you might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world" (1:4)

You will also note that these individuals were also the elect (1:10). So here we find clear evidence that Peter perceived born again Christians as those people who have escaped the corruption of the world and had become partakers of the divine nature (i.e. the Spirit). Therefore, these false prophets who had also escaped the corruption of the world had been born again Christians.

3. The persons in question had "full knowledge" of Jesus Christ.

The Greek word "epignosis" is most properly translated as "full knowledge." This connotates the concept of a intimate personal relational knowledge of Jesus Christ as in Jesus' own words "I never knew you!" and "whom He foreknew he predestined." The Greek word "fully known" is the verb form "epiginosko." Peter describes Christians as those who have full knowledge of God in the very same letter.

"Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the full knowledge (epignosis) of God and of Jesus our Lord. His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our full knowledge (epignosis) of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires....For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your full knowledge (epignosis) of our Lord Jesus Christ....Therefore, brethren, be the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do this things you will never fall" (2 Peter 1:3-4,8,10).

Now notice the similarity of the language used of the false prophets:

"For if, after they have escaped the corruption of the world through the full knowledge (epignosis) of our Lord. It would have been better for them not to have fully known (epiginosko) the way of righteousness, than to have fully known (epiginosko) it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. " (2:20).

The false teachers had in fact come to the "full knowledge of the truth." They had known Christ. They were born again Christians. In the following passage we can see clearly that coming to a full knowledge of the truth is through salvation.

"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4).

"Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new man, which is being renewed in full knowledge in the image of its Creator" (Col 3:10).

My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may fully know the mystery of God, namely, Christ" (Colossians 3:10).

Clearly, "full knowledge" here refers to the fact that these men were once regenerated and fully knew Christ in a relational sense, which is only possible through the new birth. They are now false prophets who have fell into complete apostasy.

4. They have been entangled "again" in the affairs of the world.

"they are entangled again in them and overpowered" (1 Peter 2:20).

Logically, one cannot be entangled "again" in the affairs of the world unless he has once escaped that state. And this is precisely what Peter has said, "they have escaped the corruption of the world."

"The dog is turned to his own vomit again"

5. Their last state is worse than the first.

"their last state is worse than the first" (2 Peter 2:20).

This is not possible unless they had first become Christians. This is what Peter means when he says it would have been better if they had never come to the full knowledge of the truth than to have known and turned away.

6. They have "turned" from the holy commandment.

"than after knowing it to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them"

The Greek word here is "epistrepho" and means "to turn" and connotates the idea of a "turnabout." It is sometimes translated as "converted." In that sense, these men have "converted" from Christianity back to their old ways. They have turned back.
"The dog is turned to his own vomit again"

There can be no doubt that Peter is talking about men who were Christians and who have turned back to their old ways. Just as false teachers arose in the Old Testament, now false teachers arise in the last days. In fact, they are false prophets who were bought by the Master. They had escaped the corruption of the world just as Peter previously says Christians had done. They had come to full knowledge of the truth which is by definition relational knowledge of Christ. There is no way one can honestly argue these men have simply taken a temporary "backslide" when we look at all the information Peter gives us about them. And it is also incredulous to claim they were never really Christians. They are total apostates and false prophets who knew the way of life and have turned away from it back to the way of death and destruction. We honestly insist they were never born again in the first place. Given the terminology from Peter which we have examined that was used to describe Christians, there is no way one can honestly say these false prophets were never true Christians since Peter uses the same terminology concerning them. Peter is talking about men who were saved and have turned back from Christ and the holy commandment and back into a religion based on false teaching.

"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.... forsaking the right way they have gone astray.... For if, after they have escaped the corruption of the world through the full knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overtaken, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have fully known the way of righteousness than after having fully known it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them" (2 Peter 2).

Of course many Calvinists will try to resort to some kind of contrivance here and invent some kind of idea that is not present in the text itself to impose his fantasies into it. But the message is plain and truth cannot be escaped. They were born again Christians who have apostasized and become false prophets and their last state is worse than the first. Jude reminds us clearly that God saved a people and after having saved them he destroyed those who were later unbelieving. The message is as true today as it was then. Paul teaches the same message in 1 Corinthians 10. You must make your calling and election sure or you will fall as these men fell and became false prophets.


"For certain men have secretly crept in, who long ago were written about for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Master God and our Lord Jesus Christ. Though you already knew this, I want to remind you that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe." (Jude 4-5).

Now ask yourself honestly why Jude is warning Christians in this manner.

 

[JM]

I'm still waiting to see how we're wrong?

Since when is a born again believer called a dog?

This is too funny. :

 

[JM]

One more thing, can false belief bring about saving faith or is saving faith from above? Doesn't seem logical doesn't it? God gives a false faith to a born again believer.... :

 

[Adams son]

I'm still waiting to see how we're wrong?

Since when is a born again believer called a dog?

This is too funny. :

When he returns to his vomit.

It seems to me you are in complete denial about what the passage actually says.

Peter exhorts these Christians to make their calling and election sure, unlike the false prophets he is discussing who did not do this and returned to their former ways.

 

[Dean]

Jason, sorry, I didn't look here again. I just assumed after you made the claim that Peter addressed this passage to Jews who weren't Christians, you'd just leave this post.

I already showed you that Jesus called ALL non-Jews dogs.

Now, you want me to do the work again for you with "Who is the Lord in this passage?"

OK, welcome to Dean's school of OBVIOUS scriptural interpretation. Let's start with the beginning of the letter of II Peter.

1:2 Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

and again,

1:8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

and again, (with some add'l Calvinist wrench in the works highlighted)

1:10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

and again

1:14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me.

and again

1:16We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty

Now at last we come to the "controversial" verse in question:

2:1 "But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them–bringing swift destruction on themselves"

OK, now Peter has in the previous Chapter used the word "LORD" as a description of JESUS CHRIST, hold on, let me count, 1,2,3,4, FIVE times.

Now, at the first verse of the NEXT chapter, he uses the word AGAIN to speak of a SOVEREIGN LORD (ring a bell, Hobbes?) who BOUGHT people...Hmmmm....

Now, folks, remember, we're not Greek scholars here. But DENYING this Lord brings swift destruction upon you... Gosh, it's confusing.

Lets review:

a) "Lord" used 5 times to describe Jesus Christ in opening of Letter.

b) LORD in 2:1 is SOVEREIGN.

c) This "LORD" bought people...

d) Denying him brings swift destruction. You know, denying Satan brings...oh, yeah, eternal life, so that doesn't help.

No WAY that Peter's referring to Jesus here!

YOu were right to use the blushing smiley.

Speaking of dogs, this one doesn't hunt.

 

[JM]

http://aomin.org/2PE21.html

 

[evanman]

Where did Jesus describe ALL non-Jews as being Dogs?

 

[Dean]

Jason, God Bless you, but if you can't articulate an argument, I'm not following a link to a phonebook sized "Spin for Calvin" site.

Evan:

Matthew 15:23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.â€Â
24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.â€Â
25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!†she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs.â€Â
27“Yes, Lord,†she said, “but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table.â€Â
28Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.†And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

And my Jewish friends complain the NT is anti-semitic!!