"I'm Christian, unless you're gay"

[felix]

I think Romans 1 is speaking about all men, saying all men were like this, supressing the Truth, ungodly etc...

Where does it say it is for all men?

Romans 1 focuses on a very particular group of people who
Stage 1: suppress the truth in unrighteousness
Stage 2: exchanged the truth of God for the lie
Stage 3: approve of those who practice them

 

[childeye]

Where does it say it is for all men?

Romans 1 focuses on a very particular group of people who
Stage 1: suppress the truth in unrighteousness
Stage 2: exchanged the truth of God for the lie
Stage 3: approve of those who practice them

Well, Paul talked in a way that would have me believe he means "all men" when he says all unrighteousness and ungodliness of men, who suppress the Truth in unrighteousness. We've all exchanged the Truth for a lie just like Adam did. We've all taken god in our image before knowing Christ. By thinking we are wise, when wisdom is in knowing Him, we have been unthankful. We have taken God for granted. We are vain and our hearts are darkened. We all carry a false image of god and are therefore in need of the Christ, the True Image of God that changes a man like the rain changes drought.

And so we see in Romans 2:1 that Pauls conclusion of Romans 1 is this, <SUP>1</SUP>Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

This scripture seems to be applying to all of the previous in Romans 1 with the word "Therefore", and still to all men. We have all been children of wrath before recieving Christ. I do believe there are degrees, or exceptions of course, because there were men, chosen by God who would know Him. I think the law condemns all men and God gathers up in mercy.

 

[felix]

Well, Paul talked in a way that would have me believe he means "all men" when he says all unrighteousness and ungodliness of men, who suppress the Truth in unrighteousness. We've all exchanged the Truth for a lie just like Adam did. We've all taken god in our image before knowing Christ. By thinking we are wise, when wisdom is in knowing Him, we have been unthankful. We have taken God for granted. We are vain and our hearts are darkened. We all carry a false image of god and are therefore in need of the Christ, the True Image of God that changes a man like the rain changes drought.

And so we see in Romans 2:1 that Pauls conclusion of Romans 1 is this, <SUP>1</SUP>Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

This scripture seems to be applying to all of the previous in Romans 1 with the word "Therefore", and still to all men. We have all been children of wrath before recieving Christ. I do believe there are degrees, or exceptions of course, because there were men, chosen by God who would know Him.

• What truth did all men suppress in unrighteousness? There are more than millions who had never heard about Gospel, Christ or His righteousness.
• Adam did not exchange Truth for a lie, but was deceived. Adam was innocent and does not know what is good or evil when he was deceived.
• We don't carry any false image of God. Scripture confirms that man is the image of God even after the fall in Gen 9:6.

However, the following is true:

• Who wants to suppress that God is the creator? Evolutionist
• Who exchanged the above truth with a lie called Evolution? or Idols?
• Who changed the glory of incorruptible God (referring to all of His creation which speak His glory) to a corruptible man, animals and creeping things (meaning, they are evolved or came from these or created by Idols).

 

[childeye]

• What truth did all men suppress in unrighteousness? There are more than millions who had never heard about Gospel, Christ or His righteousness.
• Adam did not exchange Truth for a lie, but was deceived. Adam was innocent and does not know what is good or evil when he was deceived.
• We don't carry any false image of God. Scripture confirms that man is the image of God even after the fall in Gen 9:6.

We all supressed the Truth of God's Holiness.
Adam did this when he accepted a false image of god from Satan in the Garden.
We all have had a false image of god.

Ephesians 2:2-3

King James Version (KJV)


<SUP id=en-KJV-29232 class=versenum>2</SUP>Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: <SUP id=en-KJV-29233 class=versenum>3</SUP>Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Colossians 3:4-6

King James Version (KJV)


<SUP id=en-KJV-29522 class=versenum>4</SUP>When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
<SUP id=en-KJV-29523 class=versenum>5</SUP>Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: <SUP id=en-KJV-29524 class=versenum>6</SUP>For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Psalm 4:2

King James Version (KJV)

<SUP id=en-KJV-13968 class=versenum>2</SUP>O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame? how long will ye love vanity, and seek after leasing? Selah.
Psalm 39:11

King James Version (KJV)

<SUP id=en-KJV-14524 class=versenum>11</SUP>When thou with rebukes dost correct man for iniquity, thou makest his beauty to consume away like a moth: surely every man is vanity. Selah.
1 Corinthians 1
<SUP>21</SUP>For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


<SUP id=en-KJV-28392 class=versenum>28</SUP>And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
<SUP id=en-KJV-28393 class=versenum>29</SUP>That no flesh should glory in his presence. <SUP id=en-KJV-28394 class=versenum>30</SUP>But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

 

[felix]

We all supressed the Truth of God's Holiness.
Adam did this when he accepted a false image of god from Satan in the Garden.
We all have had a false image of god.

Ephesians 2:2-3

King James Version (KJV)


<SUP id=en-KJV-29232 class=versenum>2</SUP>Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: <SUP id=en-KJV-29233 class=versenum>3</SUP>Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Colossians 3:4-6

King James Version (KJV)


<SUP id=en-KJV-29522 class=versenum>4</SUP>When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
<SUP id=en-KJV-29523 class=versenum>5</SUP>Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: <SUP id=en-KJV-29524 class=versenum>6</SUP>For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Psalm 4:2

King James Version (KJV)

<SUP id=en-KJV-13968 class=versenum>2</SUP>O ye sons of men, how long will ye turn my glory into shame? how long will ye love vanity, and seek after leasing? Selah.
Psalm 39:11

King James Version (KJV)

<SUP id=en-KJV-14524 class=versenum>11</SUP>When thou with rebukes dost correct man for iniquity, thou makest his beauty to consume away like a moth: surely every man is vanity. Selah.
1 Corinthians 1
<SUP>21</SUP>For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.


<SUP id=en-KJV-28392 class=versenum>28</SUP>And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
<SUP id=en-KJV-28393 class=versenum>29</SUP>That no flesh should glory in his presence. <SUP id=en-KJV-28394 class=versenum>30</SUP>But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

None of the verses quoted above prove what you are trying to say.

We all supressed the Truth of God's Holiness.

Supressed means, you know it is the truth and yet you want to diminish it purposefully.
(Heb 10:26) For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:26 clearly says, not all have received the knowledge of Truth.

Adam did this when he accepted a false image of god from Satan in the Garden.

It's not Adam.. anyway.. Scripture says Adam was deceived while he was innocent - not knowing good and evil. He did not accept any false image of God.

We all have had a false image of god.

No we don't.
The way God created man as image of Himself as said in Gen 1:27 was confirmed by God even after the fall in Gen 9:6. Man losing the image of God or having a false image is unbiblical.

 

[Pizzaguy]

We all have had a false image of god.

From the arguing in this and other threads, I'd say you are right.

The only question is, which side of this argument has the wrong idea?

I have (that I know of) three gay friends. Two of the three believe in God, but not in Christianity because they are hated by Christians. (The third is so agnostic, it is scary.)

I honestly have come to believe that some are BORN that way. To the extent that I believe they are mentally ill or disturbed. Since I have a son who is not gay but is CERTAINLY mentally ill, I cannot hate anyone I think is mentally ill.

I want them all to come to know Christ. And I will say/act/do everything in a way to TRY to leave them feeling that Christ IS an option for them.

I must do this, I would hate to face the Lord one day and see a "Video" of my life played where I offend someone - or "Teach" someone, someway, such that they turn from Christ forever.

Could I be forgiven for THAT?

 

[felix]

From the arguing in this and other threads, I'd say you are right.

The only question is, which side of this argument has the wrong idea?

I have (that I know of) three gay friends. Two of the three believe in God, but not in Christianity because they are hated by Christians. (The third is so agnostic, it is scary.)

As I mentioned in #127, we are not supposed to even sit and eat with them.

I must do this, I would hate to face the Lord one day and see a "Video" of my life played where I offend someone - or "Teach" someone, someway, such that they turn from Christ forever.

Could I be forgiven for THAT?

You mean, not like...

(Luke 11:44) "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like graves which are not seen, and the men who walk over [them] are not aware [of them."]

So, you want Christians to preach a sugar coated gospel?

 

[Pizzaguy]

I am not Jesus, and he was not speaking to average people - He was telling off people who were doing just what I said, they were causing people to stumble. They were, effectively, standing between those willing to repent and God Himself.

I dislike the "sugar coated" Gospel as well. I have explained to my friends that they are condemned, that they are living a life directly and specifically in opposition to God's word. So, don't get me wrong here!

But I make it clear that God loves them, and that their sin can come between them and God.

 

[Milk-Drops]

The only objection I can raise here is why do you think homosexuals are mentally ill Pizza? Just curious? What is your standard for mentally ill?

 

[Pizzaguy]

The only objection I can raise here is why do you think homosexuals are mentally ill Pizza? Just curious? What is your standard for mentally ill?

It is not normal in the least, and with the gender-confused behaviors I've seen, I am sure there is something really wrong and I don't think it's all learned, either.

Please understand that, as a father of a mentally ill son, I don't say this with hate or malice at all. I say it with an understanding tone.

 

[Milk-Drops]

It is not normal in the least, and with the gender-confused behaviors I've seen, I am sure there is something really wrong and I don't think it's all learned, either.

Please understand that, as a father of a mentally ill son, I don't say this with hate or malice at all. I say it with an understanding tone.

Don't worry. I didn't think you meant any hate or malice, I was just curious what you were basing your judgement off of. Normally when I hear mentally ill, I envision someone who is incapable of living their lives without the aid of some kind of medication or aid. I don't see this with homosexuals because I just see it as just a different attraction type. About it. Sorry for any confusion I caused.

 

[Pizzaguy]

No problem. I appreciate the opportunity to explain my position!

 

[Christ_empowered]

I don't know that I'd consider homosexuality mental illness. I am post-gay and have a mental illness (apparently, some sort of Bipolar I, mostly psychotic depression). I do think homosexuality is strongly rooted in self-love, which in the psychological/psychiatric world would be termed "narcissism."

 

[reba]

CE i am 65 years old.. When i first heard about homosexuality it was as a mental illness . That was what the scholars of the day relayed.

I dont know one way or the other just saying what was being said a million years ago...

Your other post/thread makes tons of sense...

 

[Milk-Drops]

I don't know that I'd consider homosexuality mental illness. I am post-gay and have a mental illness (apparently, some sort of Bipolar I, mostly psychotic depression). I do think homosexuality is strongly rooted in self-love, which in the psychological/psychiatric world would be termed "narcissism."

The human condition is narcissistic in itself. We all have perceptions of ourselves, wants for ourselves, attractions, feelings of love, of wanting. etc.

If a male sees a young women, feels attraction, thinks of how nice it would be to be with that person, dates that person to get close, dresses appropriately for the occation, etc. Would that also be a form of narcissism? The male did change things to get what he wanted for himself.

 

[felix]

But I make it clear that God loves them, and that their sin can come between them and God.

No! God does not love them. God loves only His people who believe in Him and follow His commandments.

Where does this so called "God's love" vanish during His judgment? After all it is conditional love - which requires them to believe in Him as in John 3:16. Christ did died for the whole world as an atonement - but that does not mean "forgiveness" is automatic without repentance.

It is wrong to say God loves them. Infact God NEVER said to preach His love to anyone.

Below is spoken by Christ Himself:

Then He said to them, "Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

We are to preach repentance and remission of sins. God's love and all promises are only if the person believes and continues till the end.

 

[childeye]

None of the verses quoted above prove what you are trying to say.


Supressed means, you know it is the truth and yet you want to diminish it purposefully.
(Heb 10:26) For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:26 clearly says, not all have received the knowledge of Truth.

Yes, I chose those scriptures because they say what I am trying to reiterate, that we were all at one time children of wrath which Romans 1 is revealing. Yes I truly believe we have all taken God for granted and have been unthankful to some degree. How did Adam not do this when he sought to better his station under God? I think I am safer in thinking we all would have done the same and then being corrected of that, than thinking only some are children of wrath, not including me, and then being corrected.

It's not Adam.. anyway.. Scripture says Adam was deceived while he was innocent - not knowing good and evil. He did not accept any false image of God.

I agree Adam was deceived in that he listened to the woman who was deceived. But that is no excuse, since God had never done anything to Adam wherein he should distrust God. And because God is at the Godhead, Adam had no right to question the intentions of God from the position of the created since all that Adam is, God has given to him and he is not greater than his Maker. Adam should of at least given God the benefit of the doubt. My view is that Adam caved to a peer pressure because of insecurity about his own self, when faced with the womans assuredness.

No we don't.
The way God created man as image of Himself as said in Gen 1:27 was confirmed by God even after the fall in Gen 9:6. Man losing the image of God or having a false image is unbiblical.

I know God has always said Adam was a child of God and He does not lie. But if we don't believe in Him and what He says, we therefore don't believe in ourselves. And as I said, Adam didn't believe in himself and so he didn't trust in God and his Maker. We are one and the same since we are made in their image, but it's all about trust. Therefore he suppressed the Truth unto his own diminishment, and I am sure he would admit this in retrospect. He certainly wouldn't say he was right about listening to the woman and things improved from there.

Satan said, you won't die if you eat of the knowledge of good and evil. For God knows the day you eat of that fruit your eyes will be opened and you will become like gods. This is the subtlety of the lie. To find out if this is true or not so as to extinguish the doubt,
one must eat. But to eat is to then believe the lie that God is a Person that would withhold something good from us, hence a false image of god was introduced and believed in. Satan was cunning in his instilling doubt, for all things are built upon faith.

The prodigal son is a good example. This son thought he could do better for himself outside his Fathers house. He had a doubt about where he was and what he rightfully deserved. If the Father tried to stop him, it would only enforce the desire to leave. This son had to learn the hard way. And although he did not see he was sinning against his father at the start, he was in fact suppressing the Truth that his Father only had his best interests in mind at all times or that he didn't know what he was doing.

You have not addressed the issue that Romans 2:1 brings to the picture. Romans 2 is talking about all men as if no man can judge another because we are all guilty. Even if all men are not guilty of this, it would be becoming of them to not Lord it over those who are, since in doing so they are also taking God's attributes for granted and being unthankful and therefore becoming as guilty as the others.

 

[felix]

Yes, I chose those scriptures because they say what I am trying to reiterate, that we were all at one time children of wrath which Romans 1 is revealing. Yes I truly believe we have all taken God for granted and have been unthankful to some degree. How did Adam not do this when he sought to better his station under God? I think I am safer in thinking we all would have done the same and then being corrected of that, than thinking only some are children of wrath, not including me, and then being corrected.



I agree Adam was deceived in that he listened to the woman who was deceived. But that is no excuse, since God had never done anything to Adam wherein he should distrust God. And because God is at the Godhead, Adam had no right to question the intentions of God from the position of the created since all that Adam is, God has given to him and he is not greater than his Maker. Adam should of at least given God the benefit of the doubt. My view is that Adam caved to a peer pressure because of insecurity about his own self, when faced with the womans assuredness.


I know God has always said Adam was a child of God and He does not lie. But if we don't believe in Him and what He says, we therefore don't believe in ourselves. And as I said, Adam didn't believe in himself and so he didn't trust in God and his Maker. We are one and the same since we are made in their image, but it's all about trust. Therefore he suppressed the Truth unto his own diminishment, and I am sure he would admit this in retrospect. He certainly wouldn't say he was right about listening to the woman and things improved from there.

Satan said, you won't die if you eat of the knowledge of good and evil. For God knows the day you eat of that fruit your eyes will be opened and you will become like gods. This is the subtlety of the lie. To find out if this is true or not so as to extinguish the doubt,
one must eat. But to eat is to then believe the lie that God is a Person that would withhold something good from us, hence a false image of god was introduced and believed in. Satan was cunning in his instilling doubt, for all things are built upon faith.

The prodigal son is a good example. This son thought he could do better for himself outside his Fathers house. He had a doubt about where he was and what he rightfully deserved. If the Father tried to stop him, it would only enforce the desire to leave. This son had to learn the hard way. And although he did not see he was sinning against his father at the start, he was in fact suppressing the Truth that his Father only had his best interests in mind at all times or that he didn't know what he was doing.

You have not addressed the issue that Romans 2:1 brings to the picture. Romans 2 is talking about all men as if no man can judge another because we are all guilty. Even if all men are not guilty of this, it would be becoming of them to not Lord it over those who are, since in doing so they are also taking God's attributes for granted and being unthankful and therefore becoming as guilty as the others.

If it is all men from Adam, this should include Jesus Christ as well for He is 100% man. Also, none of the explanations you provide are satisfactory for the verses in Romans 1 clearly explain Who, Why and How.

• (Rom 1:18) who suppress the truth in unrighteousness
• (Rom 1:21) they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God
• (Rom 1:23) changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man
• (Rom 1:25) who exchanged the truth of God for the lie
• (Rom 1:28) they did not like to retain God in their knowledge
• (Rom 1:32) who, knowing the righteous judgment of God

If it is for ALL men, when did God delivered you into uncleanness? when did God delivered you as a gay? when did God gave you a debased mind to become a hater of God?

Romans 2 does not speak about all men in regard to God's wrath:
(Rom 2:5) But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
(Rom 2:6) who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
(Rom 2:7) eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
(Rom 2:8) but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness -- indignation and wrath,
(Rom 2:9) tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

 

[Pizzaguy]

If it is all men from Adam, this should include Jesus Christ as well for He is 100% man.

I'd edit that if I were you. Sure He was 100% in the flesh, but He was way more than that in spirit, and you know it.

I cannot believe YOU of all people here goofed like that! :D I think you are trying too hard to win the argument, and in doing so, have, well, lost. Lost SOMETHING.

 

[Christ_empowered]

reba--In 1973 or so, American psychiatrists removed homosexuality from their big book of crazy (the DSM). In 1987, they removed "ego-dystonic homosexuality," the form of homosexuality in which the person does not like being homosexual.

I don't know that many secular treatments for homosexuality worked well. Some psychoanalysts reported a bit of success after extensive talk therapy. Even when patients didn't become heterosexual, they often became less promiscuous, which is certainly desirable. That's probably about all secular therapies can hope to accomplish.