"I'm Christian, unless you're gay"

[Mike S]

If that is the scenario, then it means, I had never been a good parent who had properly disciplined by child. I would never allow such a scenario to exist.

Just to give a background of my home, I don't have TV, never have any rooms for children and my children cannot be or do anything in private. We make sure children are not allowed on their own after school. We don't buy mobiles to kids. We don't give importance to academic but consider spiritual purity as the highest priority.

Unless you teach them the pollution of this world, they will never know them.

Felix, this gives me a little better understanding of what your beliefs are. I commend the effort to keep spiritual purity the highest priority in your family's life. I hope that you don't keep your children so isolated from the rest of the world that they have difficulty relating to others. God gave us a great big wonderful world, that isn't corruption only, but is beauty as well.

I'm sorry that you don't recognize the God of whom I speak . He's the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and of our Lord the Christ. He does not leave us alone to work out our salvation, He has given us Jesus. When I say work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, I mean your relationship to God through Christ is ultimately a personal relationship between Him and you alone.

My part, and the part of all our Christian community, in your salvation is to encourage you in your faith. Your salvation is up to you to accept through your own relationship with Christ, and we play only peripheral parts. And we all do so with fearful trepidation that we are, through our own abilities outside of Christ, undeserving of God's love.

 

[felix]

Felix, this gives me a little better understanding of what your beliefs are. I commend the effort to keep spiritual purity the highest priority in your family's life. I hope that you don't keep your children so isolated from the rest of the world that they have difficulty relating to others. God gave us a great big wonderful world, that isn't corruption only, but is beauty as well.

Will you teach your child to drink poison to know what happens if you drink?
Do you want your child to die for him/her to know what is death?

(Prov 29:15) The rod and rebuke give wisdom, But a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.

If you want to teach your child all the sins of the world all techniques Hitler used to do genocide, how to kill, massacre and slit throat,then give him plenty of opportunity to be alone and teach him not to do all these things.

I'm sorry that you don't recognize the God of whom I speak . He's the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and of our Lord the Christ. He does not leave us alone to work out our salvation, He has given us Jesus. When I say work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, I mean your relationship to God through Christ is ultimately a personal relationship between Him and you alone.

My part, and the part of all our Christian community, in your salvation is to encourage you in your faith. Your salvation is up to you to accept through your own relationship with Christ, and we play only peripheral parts. And we all do so with fearful trepidation that we are, through our own abilities outside of Christ, undeserving of God's love.

How does my personal relationship with God affect preaching eternal judgement to others? Are you suggesting I must keep my mouth shut and take care of my own personal relationship while ignoring the great commission and warning others of their judgement?

Btw, there is a difference between judging others and warning others. When you gossip about someone's mistake you judge him or her. But, when you go straight and say his/her mistake, you warn and rebuke - this is not judging but preaching God's judgement.

 

[Mike S]

Will you teach your child to drink poison to know what happens if you drink?
Do you want your child to die for him/her to know what is death?

(Prov 29:15) The rod and rebuke give wisdom, But a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.

If you want to teach your child all the sins of the world all techniques Hitler used to do genocide, how to kill, massacre and slit throat,then give him plenty of opportunity to be alone and teach him not to do all these things.



How does my personal relationship with God affect preaching eternal judgement to others? Are you suggesting I must keep my mouth shut and take care of my own personal relationship while ignoring the great commission and warning others of their judgement?

Btw, there is a difference between judging others and warning others. When you gossip about someone's mistake you judge him or her. But, when you go straight and say his/her mistake, you warn and rebuke - this is not judging but preaching God's judgement.

OK then...I see my allusion to Jim Jones and David Koresh was closer to the mark than I could have known.

 

[Mike]

I honestly believe homosexuality is an easy target for many Christians for two reasons: they are repulsed by it and they are not the slightest bit lured into this particular sin. What a perfect combination! Many believers are silent on sins that rip the fabric of the Body of Christ, such as gossip, false testimony, and hate, because they shamefully see this in themselves, and I am no less guilty of these pitfalls.

It's so easy to stand on our platform of ridicule, condemning certain people who struggle with something that will never be a stumbling block for us personally. We have names for them, and they are easily whipped out. There are names for people who sin in these other ways too, such as "gossiper" and "hate-monger", but how often do we label people with these terms?

The two reasons I believe we obsess with homosexuality are the two reasons I want to condemn and label them with an offhand remark. But I know that while I was yet a sinner, Christ died for me. He changed my heart, and He can change theirs. My desire to sow the seeds of His Love exceeds my inclination to ostracize them, lest I contribute to their feelings of being beyond His Forgiveness.

 

[felix]

I honestly believe homosexuality is an easy target for many Christians for two reasons: they are repulsed by it and they are not the slightest bit lured into this particular sin. What a perfect combination! Many believers are silent on sins that rip the fabric of the Body of Christ, such as gossip, false testimony, and hate, because they shamefully see this in themselves, and I am no less guilty of these pitfalls.

All other sins are because of our own temptations and desires. But homosexuality is the only sin which God Himself delivers a person into. Refer Romans 1.

It's so easy to stand on our platform of ridicule, condemning certain people who struggle with something that will never be a stumbling block for us personally. We have names for them, and they are easily whipped out. There are names for people who sin in these other ways too, such as "gossiper" and "hate-monger", but how often do we label people with these terms?

When you put a gay ad in bus stops in Queensland, it didn't affect the school children?

If you think homosexuality is a struggle, then it contradicts Romans 1.

The two reasons I believe we obsess with homosexuality are the two reasons I want to condemn and label them with an offhand remark. But I know that while I was yet a sinner, Christ died for me. He changed my heart, and He can change theirs. My desire to sow the seeds of His Love exceeds my inclination to ostracize them, lest I contribute to their feelings of being beyond His Forgiveness.

Christ died for the entire human race as an "atonement" which does not mean it is automatic in forgiving all sins without repentance and even unbelievers, does it? Christ's love is also conditional, meaning, no one is going to be loved by God unless they believe Him and those who don't believe are already condemned.

If your desire is to sow God's love, you first need to say the conditions in it. Will you buy a product without knowing it's terms and conditions?

If he does not believe, Christ instructs to shake the dust in our feet.

Having said this, what love are you taking about which includes these homosexuals into what?

 

[Hitch]

I honestly believe homosexuality is an easy target for many Christians for two reasons: they are repulsed by it and they are not the slightest bit lured into this particular sin. What a perfect combination! Many believers are silent on sins that rip the fabric of the Body of Christ, such as gossip, false testimony, and hate, because they shamefully see this in themselves, and I am no less guilty of these pitfalls.

It's so easy to stand on our platform of ridicule, condemning certain people who struggle with something that will never be a stumbling block for us personally. We have names for them, and they are easily whipped out. There are names for people who sin in these other ways too, such as "gossiper" and "hate-monger", but how often do we label people with these terms?

The two reasons I believe we obsess with homosexuality are the two reasons I want to condemn and label them with an offhand remark. But I know that while I was yet a sinner, Christ died for me. He changed my heart, and He can change theirs. My desire to sow the seeds of His Love exceeds my inclination to ostracize them, lest I contribute to their feelings of being beyond His Forgiveness.

<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-14089">1</sup>Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill? <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-14090">2</sup>He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-14091">3</sup>He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-14092">4</sup>In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-14093">5</sup>He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved.


<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-17201">4</sup>They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them. <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-17202">5</sup>Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-17203">6</sup>Better is the poor that walketh in his uprightness, than he that is perverse in his ways, though he be rich.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-17204">7</sup>Whoso keepeth the law is a wise son: but he that is a companion of riotous men shameth his father.

 

[Nick]

nick, a local and large church preached against homosexuality and they were hated for doing that by lgbt. they taught romans and leviticus and said merely jesus died for you and taught what god wanted for man and woman. hardly anything that i would call hate. they preached against violence.

i can post all the letters to the editors on this if go a diggin on this and if you all want i will. i know the pastor somewhat. he is a man of god and also would never preach violence.

From what you've told me, that church did it well. But my point is that Christians have already lost the battle over this in the public arena. Why do you think the LGBT people responded the way they did? Sure, the Gospel is offensive, I'm not denying that. But the LGBT group has been copping so much flack by "Christians" and yet we wonder why, even when the truth in love is preached they turn around and hate us.

It's an attitude that is hard to change, and my thinking is the damage has already been done. But we mustn't give up hope.

Are you sure Nick? You are Christian have you shown love or hate to a homosexual? how about Mark or Josh? Are the folks in your church hateful? Acceptance of sinful behavior is not love.... thief liar hooker murders etc these behaviours are not to be accepted.

I have shown both love and hate to homosexuals. I hope to only show love.

I never said anything about accepting homosexuality as ok.

 

[Nick]

Really Nick you've failed.

How can you call yourself a Christian when you have done nothing at all to make the beastiality crowd feel welcome?

Maybe they should have there own forum here?

Oh really Hitch? Grow up mate.

 

[stovebolts]

Love is not new in Christ's message, it's a part of the entire Bible. But Christ emphasized love and compassion and mercy in His ministry, making the point that all the law and prophets hung on that. Chris't love for sinful man extended to the sacrifice of His life on the cross. Modern Pharisees, it seems, can barely stand to be in the same room with sinners.

Hi Mark,

I have been reading your comments, and they are honorable while you show great humility. That is commendable.

The Problem with the Pharisees, was in reading deut 28, they understood the failure of Israel as a whole was in direct relation to it's failure to live by God's standards. When they looked around, they saw a half breed edomite (Herod) as their king who slew the majority of the elders (Sanhedrin) and replaced them with his own peeps... If you don't know the history of the edomites, it is in summary in Obadiah. Then when Jesus was born, the king slew innocent children and then defiled the Temple when he refurbished it by using tools on it. Compound this with being occupied by Rome, and you will see the fullfilment of Deut 28. You see, it wasn't that the Pharisees didn't care about Israel for even Saul was defending his faith when a cloak was laid at his feet.

But more to the ministry of Jesus. It was a ministry of repentance. It was a mission to seek the lost sheep that had wandered from the truth, it was about finding that lost wedding coin and it was about the son who squandered the inheritance. You see, it was about relationship because God is love.

Jesus said many things to many people. But for the lost sheep, he said, "If you love me, keep my commandments" and he said, "Go, and sin no more". For those who wish to follow him, he even gives instruction in Matthew 5-7 and ends by saying that if hear, but you don't do, then your like a fool because not every one who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom.

John was brutally honest in his mission to make straight the way of the Lord and Jesus was brutally honest with those who kept people from entering the kingdom of God, and we know that repentance plays a big role in returning as is affirmed in the prodigal son. I am reminded of the Woman at the well... love, compassion and healing was sitting right next to her, yet it is in our fallen nature to reject healing and instead go for the argument of the day. Sad isn't it?

None of us are without sin, and while it is admirable to seek those who are lost with humility, we must do so by speaking the truth in a gentle, palatable manner as to win them over to Christ because how we live is important to God, which is why God's commandments are not burdensome. No, they are easy once we repent of our ways, and give ourselves over to the life that we were created to live.

Grace and Peace

 

[sesantek]

You're right. He did. And he didn't make friends with everyone. He had very harsh words for the self-righteous, sanctimonious, hypocritical religious leaders of the day. And he lost it on those moneychangers who were turning his dad's house into a den of theives. But I still haven't located that verse yet, where Jesus talks about homosexuals and calls them derogatory names such as.....



Hitch, it's true that there are a lot of LGBTs out there who will reject Jesus and continue to try to justify their sin, no matter what we say or do. But those individuals know who they are, and will answer to God at the end of the day. We will also answer to God for how WE conducted ourselves down here. Calling them "queers" is not just rude and uncouth, it's also very counterproductive. This kind of talk enables the gay community to reject Jesus, based solely on the words and actions of his "followers".

Not EVERY homosexual out there is completely closed off to Jesus. There are a few whose hearts are still open (even if just a crack), and we are NOT going to get our foot in the door by calling them "queers". I don't know about you, but I don't want to have to answer to God for a single soul that wasn't saved because I said or did something to put a stumbling block in front of that person. Hitch, because we don't know what's in each person's heart, we don't know which gay people will end up in hell, no matter what......and which gay people can still be saved. So we need to be nice to all of them, for the sake of the few.

Christians should just ensure they don't end up getting converted by the gays in the process of been "nice" to them. Romans 1 shows the cause of this attitude. I believe we must begin to pray earnestly for this people. Prayers first, then other coordinated action can follow.

However, I won't support outright condemnation.

 

[Mike]

It would seem that some believe homosexuals who have been active in this lifestyle are not forgivable by the Lord. There's only one such sin, and that isn't it. It's interesting to note that Proverbs 6 lists certain things that He hates, and this isn't one of them. This isn't to say He doesn't hate the act, but if it were such a singularly detestable thing amidst other sins, wouldn't it make the list?

1 Corinthians 6
"9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Repeat: "And that is what some of you were."

I have a thread about an old friend of mine who came out of the closet years ago and how this ended our friendship. I know how difficult it can be to deal with this subject. But, like all sinful lifestyles, I believe those caught up in this can be reached by the Lord and moved to a right relationship with Him. He changes them heart by heart, and we can be used more effectively by sharing His Light as opposed to threatening them with despair.

 

[Mike S]

Hi Mark,

I have been reading your comments, and they are honorable while you show great humility. That is commendable.

The Problem with the Pharisees, was in reading deut 28, they understood the failure of Israel as a whole was in direct relation to it's failure to live by God's standards. When they looked around, they saw a half breed edomite (Herod) as their king who slew the majority of the elders (Sanhedrin) and replaced them with his own peeps... If you don't know the history of the edomites, it is in summary in Obadiah. Then when Jesus was born, the king slew innocent children and then defiled the Temple when he refurbished it by using tools on it. Compound this with being occupied by Rome, and you will see the fullfilment of Deut 28. You see, it wasn't that the Pharisees didn't care about Israel for even Saul was defending his faith when a cloak was laid at his feet.

But more to the ministry of Jesus. It was a ministry of repentance. It was a mission to seek the lost sheep that had wandered from the truth, it was about finding that lost wedding coin and it was about the son who squandered the inheritance. You see, it was about relationship because God is love.

Jesus said many things to many people. But for the lost sheep, he said, "If you love me, keep my commandments" and he said, "Go, and sin no more". For those who wish to follow him, he even gives instruction in Matthew 5-7 and ends by saying that if hear, but you don't do, then your like a fool because not every one who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom.

John was brutally honest in his mission to make straight the way of the Lord and Jesus was brutally honest with those who kept people from entering the kingdom of God, and we know that repentance plays a big role in returning as is affirmed in the prodigal son. I am reminded of the Woman at the well... love, compassion and healing was sitting right next to her, yet it is in our fallen nature to reject healing and instead go for the argument of the day. Sad isn't it?

None of us are without sin, and while it is admirable to seek those who are lost with humility, we must do so by speaking the truth in a gentle, palatable manner as to win them over to Christ because how we live is important to God, which is why God's commandments are not burdensome. No, they are easy once we repent of our ways, and give ourselves over to the life that we were created to live.

Grace and Peace

Thank you for your comments.

There seems to be a misunderstanding here that I don't think homosexual behavior is a sin (I do), that I accept it as moral behavior (I don't), that I don't seek to spread the Gospel (I do), and that I don't encourage repentence (I do.) I just take seriously the adminition that whatever we do, we do in love. And in much of what I hear "Christians" say about gays there is no love. In fact what's said is frequently said in hatred and contempt.

 

[Hitch]

Oh really Hitch? Grow up mate.

Well Nick Sodomy is prohibited in the ancient scriptures and the NT.

 

[jasoncran]

From what you've told me, that church did it well. But my point is that Christians have already lost the battle over this in the public arena. Why do you think the LGBT people responded the way they did? Sure, the Gospel is offensive, I'm not denying that. But the LGBT group has been copping so much flack by "Christians" and yet we wonder why, even when the truth in love is preached they turn around and hate us.

It's an attitude that is hard to change, and my thinking is the damage has already been done. But we mustn't give up hope.


I have shown both love and hate to homosexuals. I hope to only show love.

I never said anything about accepting homosexuality as ok.

nick., as a man who went to church and loved a man and thought himself a christian. if didnt repent i would have hated all that is godly and christain. no man in that church told me to repent or even said that i was evil there was one time that i did talk about some born gay and one man said that the aint truth
. he spoke about repentance that it wasnt natural and god made man and women to be together, and yet for this i begin inside to hate him for that truth. it wasnt fully hate yet but it was welling there. ALL HE SAID was what that church teaches. its not normal nor is it natural repent and be saved.

yet i hated him for saying that to me.i wanted that sin.

 

[Nick]

Well Nick Sodomy is prohibited in the ancient scriptures and the NT.

Yes it is. I think all Christians in this thread agree.

What's your point?

 

[felix]

I just take seriously the adminition that whatever we do, we do in love.

What love? Oh! you mean to shake the dust from your feet with love?

(Luke 9:5) "And whoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet as a testimony against them."

You may ask, how do you know that they will not receive the gospel... Refer Romans 1.

And in much of what I hear "Christians" say about gays there is no love. In fact what's said is frequently said in hatred and contempt.

I think you never read the Scriptures esp, on Romans 1 about gays. It is not "Christians" who say about gays there is not love. What Christians are saying and what you are hearing is nothing but what is said in Romans 1 which refers to them as "haters of God".

 

[Navigator]

What love? Oh! you mean to shake the dust from your feet with love?

(Luke 9:5) "And whoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet as a testimony against them."

You may ask, how do you know that they will not receive the gospel... Refer Romans 1.



I think you never read the Scriptures esp, on Romans 1 about gays. It is not "Christians" who say about gays there is not love. What Christians are saying and what you are hearing is nothing but what is said in Romans 1 which refers to them as "haters of God".

When they continue to take part in their sin, while acknowledging, but ignoring what God says, then they are "haters of God." Where does it say that none of them can change? Or where does it say that we should not associate with them? I'm assuming that your focus is on verses 26-32 of Romans 1, but look at verses 24 and 25; a similar thing is said about those who are lustful or sexually immoral, not necessarily homosexual.

Adultery is sexual immorality. Do adulterers never receive the gospel? There is a member in this very forum that has gone from being bi-sexual to knowing Christ..why can others not follow the same path?

 

[Christ_empowered]

Speaking as a celibate "post-gay" man, I think we have to be clear on what "love" means. God loves us. Is he always "nice" to us? No. Merciful, yes, kind, absolutely, gracious, of course, but "nice"? No. For Christians, love should be based in Truth and should seek not to necessarily make people *feel* better--we're Christians, not self-esteem boosters--but to get them to be less sinful, closer to Christ (or start a relationship), and more authentically human. That's Love. This whole "I'm OK, you're OK, have a nice day" stuff might feel good in the short-term, both for the sinner and the Christian who avoids the Truth in order to feel like a do-gooder, but in the long run it does everybody involved (including God) a serious disservice.

 

[felix]

When they continue to take part in their sin, while acknowledging, but ignoring what God says, then they are "haters of God."

Haters of God is one of the qualities of debased mind unto which they are delivered into by God Himself for they did not want to retain God in their knowledge

(Rom 1:28-32) And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; [they are] whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Where does it say that none of them can change?

The entire Romans 1 is a 3 staged process. God delivers them into uncleanness and sin 3 times. He gives reasons why He did so 3 times. He also gives opportunity to change 3 times before delivering them into such sins.

I never said none can change. Some wisely change when God gives them opportunity to change.

Or where does it say that we should not associate with them?

No, not specifically homosexuals but it includes

1. unbelievers
2. people who practice lawlessness
3. people who live in darkness
4. idol worshipers

(2Cor 6:14-16) Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among [them.] I will be their God, And they shall be My people."

1. Not to be yoked together
2. no fellowship
3. no communion
4. no accord
5. no part
6. no agreement

I'm assuming that your focus is on verses 26-32 of Romans 1, but look at verses 24 and 25; a similar thing is said about those who are lustful or sexually immoral, not necessarily homosexual.

Adultery is sexual immorality. Do adulterers never receive the gospel? There is a member in this very forum that has gone from being bi-sexual to knowing Christ..why can others not follow the same path?

Verse 26 starts this way: For this reason God gave them up to vile passions ...
For what reasons? refer the previous verses 24 to 25.
Verse 24 starts this way: Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness
Therefore? for what reasons? refer previous verses 20 to 23.
Verse 21 clearly explains: because, although they knew God, ...

These people are not without knowing God but purposefully sinning and exchanging the truth of God with a lie. Also, I never said they can't change.

 

[Mike S]

Speaking as a celibate "post-gay" man, I think we have to be clear on what "love" means. God loves us. Is he always "nice" to us? No. Merciful, yes, kind, absolutely, gracious, of course, but "nice"? No. For Christians, love should be based in Truth and should seek not to necessarily make people *feel* better--we're Christians, not self-esteem boosters--but to get them to be less sinful, closer to Christ (or start a relationship), and more authentically human. That's Love. This whole "I'm OK, you're OK, have a nice day" stuff might feel good in the short-term, both for the sinner and the Christian who avoids the Truth in order to feel like a do-gooder, but in the long run it does everybody involved (including God) a serious disservice.

Is someone here saying this? I haven't seen it.