In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?

[Dorothy Mae]

God controls the Laws of Physics ... up can be down, in can be out (figuratively speaking) ... God maintains these physical laws I suppose for our convenience to accommodate the finiteness. Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
The mistake man makes IMO is the of deism (a universe that runs on its own power).

He made it to run on its own
power. Who makes a complex machine they have to
personally keep cranking up
all day every day? The laws of physics are set in stone. That’s why science in Christian Europe progressed far beyond all societies…women thought since God was rational and predictable, so was his creation.

Aside: I really don't know what I am talking about .... got to think other don't either for the most part.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The test of Charnock’s thesis

Oh, you read Charnock. Oh, I like him. What is "Charnock's thesis"?

Spoke too soon.... googled it... maybe you mean John Charnock.... I was thinking Stephen.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The physical properties never change.

Premise1: Christ and Peter walked on water (granted, Peter was not as good at it).
Premise 2: The Red Sea parted.
Conclusion: Physical properties can change.

God, the First Cause, determines all effects. If God wants to have the earth rotate once every 24 hours then that effect will be seen. If God wishes that physical property to end it will be so Joshua 10:13
Aside: Scientific theory assigns the word LAW to various aspects because they have never found exceptions to their theories. Thus the law of gravity, entropy, whatever. God is not limited by man's scientific laws. He determines what man names laws and He determines the longevity of said Laws. In short, God determines what was call science and not the other way around.

Deism – As a philosophical system of belief, Deism teaches that there is a personal God, that He
created the world and impressed on it the laws that govern it. Having done this, Deism argues
that God withdrew from the world to leave it to operate according to Natural Law. This contradicts Colossians 1:17

I'm going to put my intellectualism to a higher calling ... going to watch another episode of "The Bachalor".

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Premise1: Christ and Peter walked on water (granted, Peter was not as good at it).
Premise 2: The Red Sea parted.
Conclusion: Physical properties can change.

No, the properties remain the same, but the author has the power to supersede where we cannot. Didn’t change the properties of water.

God, the First Cause, determines all effects.

From whence comes this position? God himself doesn’t accept that position.

If God wants to have the earth rotate once every 24 hours then that effect will be seen. If God wishes that physical property to end it will be so

Non-living matter has no choice. It is not self-determining.

Joshua 10:13
Aside: Scientific theory assigns the word LAW to various aspects because they have never found exceptions to their theories.

And on those laws research stands. Has worked well.

Thus the law of gravity, entropy, whatever. God is not limited by man's scientific laws. He determines what man names laws and He determines the longevity of said Laws.

He has and they are set in stone unless forces greater change one small matter in a limited time frame, that is an AGENT acts upon the non-living. This is possible.

In short, God determines what was call science and not the other way around.

and? Your point?

Deism – As a philosophical system of belief, Deism teaches that there is a personal God, that He
created the world and impressed on it the laws that govern it. Having done this, Deism argues
that God withdrew from the world to leave it to operate according to Natural Law. This contradicts Colossians 1:17

I never says he left it and I know about dualism.

I'm going to put my intellectualism to a higher calling ... going to watch another episode of "The Bachalor".

Unfamiliar with that. Enjoy!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The reformed believe God has two will to explain away a lot of teachings.
God has ONE will.
He is not split in two.
I agree with your post.
God has one will, but we humans like to use our own free will
and it doesn't always match with God's.

The reformed don't believe in free will, thus to keep God's sovereignty in tact
the two wills come into play.

Want to learn more of this unorganized idea?

Are There Two Wills of God?

We have discussed the question of the two wills of God in other blog posts and podcasts, but in this post I want to share with you a book review by my mentoring professor from New Orleans Baptist T…

soteriology101.com

and you've gotta love this one: It's John Piper explaining how God brings about things God prohibits.

When one has embraced the false, complicated theories that contradict one another must be generated. The truth is seamless.

 

[Fastfredy0]

No, the properties remain the same, but the author has the power to supersede where we cannot. Didn’t change the properties of water.

Well, maybe we have a different definition of "properties".
In chemistry, the term “property” is frequently used to describe the attributes of a substance, such as density, oxidation, state of matter, mass, conductivity, color, bonding and many other traits. These properties are used to understand how a substance behaves in different situations.
For example, physical properties ascribed to oxygen include its state of matter as a gas at most temperatures, its melting point of minus 361.82 degrees Fahrenheit, its boiling point of minus 297.33 degrees Fahrenheit, its four different oxidation states and its molar heat capacity. More basic properties may include the gold coloring of the metal gold or the squishy texture of the inside of a banana.
Hmmm, I was defining properties differently than the definition I found. O.K., properties rarely change using this definition. (aside: God could change the properties of something...but that is a rarity.)

RE: I said: God, the First Cause, determines all effects.

From whence comes this position? God himself doesn’t accept that position.

Premise 1: At one time there was nothing but God
Premise 2: Eventually, there where other things
Conclusion: God was the cause as from nothing, nothing comes and as there is now something other than God that something must have been caused by God and thus He is given the term "First cause". Do you have a verse of reason to support your contention that God did not cause all things (granted: A can cause B can cause C but if A is at the beginning of the chain then God caused A.

_______
Fastfredy0 said: Joshua 10:13 Aside: Scientific theory assigns the word LAW to various aspects because they have never found exceptions to their theories.

And on those laws research stands. Has worked well.

Science assumes the uniformity of nature (Y), but it cannot prove this principle – it is irrationally assumed. The biblical worldview (X) is the necessary precondition to render this assumption intelligible. Now, the biblical worldview in fact denies the uniformity of nature, but it affirms the doctrine of ordinary providence. That is, it is God who controls the world, and he does it in a regular manner, although he is free to deviate from his usual practice whenever he wishes. Since the biblical worldview is the necessary precondition for the assumption of any regularity in the world, it is a necessary presupposition that makes science intelligible. This does not mean that science is rational or that its theories and conclusions are true, but it means that no one can even make sense of science unless biblical principles are presupposed. The implication is that science can never disprove the Scripture or even argue against it. Author Unknown

----------------------------------------
Fred: In short, God determines what was call science and not the other way around.

and? Your point?

See previous paragraph.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Well, maybe we have a different definition of "properties".
In chemistry, the term “property” is frequently used to describe the attributes of a substance, such as density, oxidation, state of matter, mass, conductivity, color, bonding and many other traits. These properties are used to understand how a substance behaves in different situations.
For example, physical properties ascribed to oxygen include its state of matter as a gas at most temperatures, its melting point of minus 361.82 degrees Fahrenheit, its boiling point of minus 297.33 degrees Fahrenheit, its four different oxidation states and its molar heat capacity. More basic properties may include the gold coloring of the metal gold or the squishy texture of the inside of a banana.
Hmmm, I was defining properties differently than the definition I found. O.K., properties rarely change using this definition. (aside: God could change the properties of something...but that is a rarity.)

Again, when Jesus walked on water, the properties of water did not change one bit. When Jesus calmed the storm, the meteorological properties of weather did not change one bit. Jesus might orchestrate something different using his authority but the properties of those matters do not change. I understand properties same as you. As I said, I am a science major.

RE: I said: God, the First Cause, determines all effects.

No, they do not. Free moral agents are not determined by God's choice. Only the properties are determined. The effects have variables. In all of scientific work, there is the understanding that variables are to be expected. This means that the effects of that which is caused is not determined. It cannot be if variables exist. The reality of variables destroys your presupposition.

Premise 1: At one time there was nothing but God
Premise 2: Eventually, there where other things
Conclusion: God was the cause as from nothing, nothing comes and as there is now something other than God that something must have been caused by God and thus He is given the term "First cause". Do you have a verse of reason to support your contention that God did not cause all things (granted: A can cause B can cause C but if A is at the beginning of the chain then God caused A.

God built into the world He made the possibility of free choice of its agents, that is living beings. This introduces variables as well as variables in non-choosing matters. So God causing all that we see and do not see does not follow that he is responsible for all that happens.

_______
Fastfredy0 said: Joshua 10:13 Aside: Scientific theory assigns the word LAW to various aspects because they have never found exceptions to their theories.

You got a better word? Step up to the plate. If you do not approve of "law" what do you suggest as a replacement?

Science assumes the uniformity of nature (Y), but it cannot prove this principle – it is irrationally assumed. The biblical worldview (X) is the necessary precondition to render this assumption intelligible. Now, the biblical worldview in fact denies the uniformity of nature, but it affirms the doctrine of ordinary providence. That is, it is God who controls the world, and he does it in a regular manner, although he is free to deviate from his usual practice whenever he wishes. Since the biblical worldview is the necessary precondition for the assumption of any regularity in the world, it is a necessary presupposition that makes science intelligible. This does not mean that science is rational or that its theories and conclusions are true, but it means that no one can even make sense of science unless biblical principles are presupposed. The implication is that science can never disprove the Scripture or even argue against it. Author Unknown

----------------------------------------
Fred: In short, God determines what was call science and not the other way around.

See previous paragraph.

Where is the evidence that the biblical worldview in fact denies the uniformity of nature? The Biblical world view, in fact, absolutes affirms the uniformity of nature. God is rational and logical and so his creation is such. That is the Biblical world view. When one understands God, one sees consistency on a level that is astounding. He is not newly deciding his course each day independent and different than the previous day. God is extremely uniform in his ways. Learn and understand them and you will understand what God does and why. Science, by the way, is ration and its search is for understanding and having truth about the natural world. That is what God determined science or the "book of his works" to be way back in Genesis and nothing about it has changed since then. You do not get more stable than that.

That last sentence is hardly worth saying. It is on the level of "God determined language not the other way around" or "God made man not the other way around." It is true but hardly worth saying.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Again, when Jesus walked on water, the properties of water did not change one bit.

You can't possibly know that. You are implying that God can't change the properties of something.
Premise 1: God created everything and their properties
Premise 2: God is all powerful
Conclusion: God determines and can change the property of something ... He must have changed the properties when He made the RED SEA part in such a way that all of Israel passed through. He must of changed some property that made it possible for Christ to walk on water...like changed the density of the water or the density of Christ ... I suppose Christ might have been given a JetSki and we weren't told, but I imagine God changed the property of something.
I grant, I don't know how He did it, but you don't either.

When Jesus calmed the storm, the meteorological properties of weather did not change one bit. Jesus might orchestrate something different using his authority but the properties of those matters do not change.

I've live on the water. Water cannot be instantly calmed; yet it was. If you wish to theorize that God can't change the properties of something (that He is not ALL MIGHTY and He was forced to do it another way... fine.

Premise 1: God created heaven and earth out of nothing
Conclusion: God changed the properties of nothing into something. That which is was not and thus it properties were changed.

No, they do not. Free moral agents are not determined by God's choice. Only the properties are determined.

God determines the properties and the properties determine the choice. Agreed, that what I've been saying all along.
God may us depraved (no one seeks God) and the depravity called us to make the choice (no one seeks God)
God changes the properties (regeneration) and the new properties cause our choice to change (salvific faith).
Using your jargon, properties don't change, we were assign them at conception and they determine our choices till an outside force changes or adds or subtracts properties.

This means that the effects of that which is caused is not determined. It cannot be if variables exist. The reality of variables destroys your presupposition.

God determines all the variables such that His will is done. (Ephesians 1:11; Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days [of my life] were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none of them. [Your life is written (not recorded) by God, we follow His script and not our own … puppets] )
Aside: Do you have any scripture to back up your theories?

God built into the world He made the possibility of free choice of its agents, that is living beings.

You've give no evidence of Free Choice where you've defined FREE as self-determine as I recall. Using your vernacular ... one can't change one's properties and ones properties where assigned by God and all variables are controlled by God. Psalm 33:10 The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nought; He makes the thoughts and plans of the peoples of no effect.
Aside: Do you have any scripture to back up your theories?

Where is the evidence that the biblical worldview in fact denies the uniformity of nature?

The biblical worldview says God, save in special circumstances is responsible for the uniformity of nature. Science assumes the uniformity of nature (Y), but it cannot prove this principle – it is irrationally assumed. The biblical worldview (X) is the necessary precondition to render this assumption intelligible.

When one understands God, one sees consistency on a level that is astounding. He is not newly deciding his course each day independent and different than the previous day. God is extremely uniform in his ways. Learn and understand them and you will understand what God does and why.

Agreed

Science, by the way, is ration and its search is for understanding and having truth about the natural world.

Science say science is rational and true until it finds out it is wrong and then corrects itself and then claims to be rational and true till the next fault is found. I.E. the earth is flat, Green agenda, Clot Shots, theoretical dark matter ... it doesn't (Iast I heard) know why gravity works ...
Premise 1: Science is truth
Premise 2: Truth never changes
Premise 3: Science changes
Conclusion: at least 1of the 3 premises is false .... hmmm, I wonder which one?

That is what God determined science or the "book of his works" to be way back in Genesis and nothing about it has changed since then. You do not get more stable than that.

He's going to create a new heaven and earth...don't get less stable than that.

This would be a lot easier if you weren't so smart.... lol

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You can't possibly know that. You are implying that God can't change the properties of something.

Of course I know that. Peter started to sink which tells us the water did not change.

Premise 1: God created everything and their properties
Premise 2: God is all powerful
Conclusion: God determines and can change the property of something ... He must have changed the properties when He made the RED SEA part in such a way that all of Israel passed through. He must of changed some property that made it possible for Christ to walk on water...like changed the density of the water or the density of Christ ... I suppose Christ might have been given a JetSki and we weren't told, but I imagine God changed the property of something.
I grant, I don't know how He did it, but you don't either.

The conclusion does not logically follow the premises. There is no statement in those premises regarding God determining. We can substitute a different noun and a different direct object and we won't find that the noun making something and have authority and power to do so means the very properties are then manipulated.

Now the water does not change if God parts it. The water does not change when Jesus walks upon it. Authority is being exercised. It still freezes at the same point and so on. There is no reason to think that Jesus cannot rise above the water. I know a man who walked on water and did not realize he was doing so but thought it was quite shallow. The water remained the same.

I've live on the water. Water cannot be instantly calmed; yet it was. If you wish to theorize that God can't change the properties of something (that He is not ALL MIGHTY and He was forced to do it another way... fine.

I do not say that. I say he simply exercised his authority and rose above the water. Why is this difficult? It is like an unnamed poster who cannot see that angels can have different material bodies our limited vision cannot see and all but prefers the position that our vision has no limits and therefore they have no bodies if we cannot see them.

Premise 1: God created heaven and earth out of nothing
Conclusion: God changed the properties of nothing into something. That which is was not and thus it properties were changed.

No, read Genesis. He did not change properties of nothing as nothing has no properties by definition. Read the account, he spoke and his words created. Nothing did not change. He added energy to nothing and life was produced.

God determines the properties and the properties determine the choice. Agreed, that what I've been saying all along.
God may us depraved (no one seeks God) and the depravity called us to make the choice (no one seeks God)

God does not say he did such. He actually says we can and ought to seek Him.

God changes the properties (regeneration) and the new properties cause our choice to change (salvific faith).

Where does God change properties? They would then be permanently changed.

Using your jargon, properties don't change, we were assign them at conception and they determine our choices till an outside force changes or adds or subtracts properties.

Well, properties were "assigned" at creation, that is in genesis. Not conception.

God determines all the variables such that His will is done. (Ephesians 1:11; Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed substance, and in Your book all the days [of my life] were written before ever they took shape, when as yet there was none of them. [Your life is written (not recorded) by God, we follow His script and not our own … puppets] )

Uh, the number of days was assigned but not what we DID during those days so no, His will is not done on the earth and he was not manipulate the variables so that this is the case. I mean, do you do his will 24/7?

Aside: Do you have any scripture to back up your theories?

Be specific. I referred to Genesis where God did not change nothing but spoke. What else?

You've give no evidence of Free Choice where you've defined FREE as self-determine as I recall.

What? You freely make choices every day of you life and you do not see that free will is real?

Using your vernacular ... one can't change one's properties and ones properties where assigned by God and all variables are controlled by God. Psalm 33:10 The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nought; He makes the thoughts and plans of the peoples of no effect.
Aside: Do you have any scripture to back up your theories?

No, properties are used in the scientific sense. We are not talking about losing weight which is changing your "properties" as you use it above or coloring your hair or cutting it all off. That is changing your "properties" if you will and yes we can. He does sometimes oppose people and in the Bible he tells which ones. It is best to find this out and determine not to be one who he opposes such that their plans are of no effect.

The biblical worldview says God, save in special circumstances is responsible for the uniformity of nature. Science assumes the uniformity of nature (Y), but it cannot prove this principle – it is irrationally assumed. The biblical worldview (X) is the necessary precondition to render this assumption intelligible.

Agreed

Ok although that uniformity was established in nature. It is not in God's list of daily duties.

Science say science is rational and true until it finds out it is wrong and then corrects itself and then claims to be rational and true till the next fault is found. I.E. the earth is flat, Green agenda, Clot Shots, theoretical dark matter ... it doesn't (Iast I heard) know why gravity works ...
Premise 1: Science is truth

No, science endeavors to find truth. It is not = truth.

Premise 2: Truth never changes

correct

Premise 3: Science changes
Conclusion: at least 1of the 3 premises is false .... hmmm, I wonder which one?

The first is in error.

He's going to create a new heaven and earth...don't get less stable than that.

That is not literal in terms of planets. It is a metaphor for how it will be. But Heaven is different in any case as bodies can walk through brick walls.

This would be a lot easier if you weren't so smart.... lol

Same to you. lol

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Calvinism doesn't seem to have an answer to the question of why God holds sinners responsible for the way he made them other than he just does, and don't question it.

At least in the alternate view, sinners become justly and rightly responsible for the way God made them if they reject His revelation to them that they are the sinner they were predisposed to be and reject His gracious offer to be rescued from the fate of the sinner He predisposed them to be. This is an understandable, rational, and just gospel. Calvinism is not.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Of course I know that. Peter started to sink which tells us the water did not change.

Your premise ignores the fact that for a while Peter stood on the water and that Christ did not sink ... that the deciding factor was FAITH and apparently not the properties of gravity and relative density of Pete and the water.
Aside: I was at the dead sea once ... add a little more water and I bet I could walk on it ....j/k

Yeah, for the sake of argument .. I concede that the property of things rarely changes. So, rather than continue down this tangent let's stipulate that the properties of things do not change (aside: as I recall the properties of matter change as they approach the speed of light as do their experience of time relative to things that stay relatively still.... but, as I said, for a practical matter the property of things rarely changes)

Now the water does not change if God parts it.

Well, for sake of argument and because to the rarity... I have always conceded the properties of things rarely change so I won't continue down that track as it was always a tangential issue.

God does not say he did such. He actually says we can and ought to seek Him.

Agreed.... but the statement do not answer the crux of the matter. Why can we seek Him.
You say FREE WILL, I say God changed our desires causing us to seek Him.

Well, properties were "assigned" at creation, that is in genesis. Not conception.

Fine... all properties were assigned at creation .... A leads to B leads to C ...... to Z to a person being born. It's complex but God starts the ball rolling and all things occur as dependent on preset properties (also know as deism IMO per aside below) ... that's your stance IMO. I don't agree, but I won't belabor the point further.
Aside: What is deism and what to deists believe ... https://www.gotquestions.org/deism.html
Aside 2: I have to put in IMO a lot in case the staff wishes to ostracize me for not being 100% accurate in my understanding of your stances. I fully admit I am not god-like, that I do make mistakes or the person communication could be the issue or whatever (there... giggle ... I hopefully protected my legal butt ... I know you wouldn't accuse me of this ... just a safety aside and hopefully added levity)

His will is not done on the earth and he was not manipulate the variables

Premise 1: Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Premise 2: All of Christ's requests to God are granted because He is God (He's basically asking Himself)
Conclusion: God's sovereign will is done on earth
Please provide scripture showing God's will is not followed. I grant His moral will like we should not sin is not done, but His sovereign will overrides his moral instructions and thus sin, for instance, is allowed.

Psalm 115:3 "Our God is in the heavens: he has done whatsoever he has pleased,". ...not he has done whatsoever he has pleased [as determined by the properties of things He created in the beginning (deism)]

What? You freely make choices every day of you life and you do not see that free will is real?

Agreed, we make choices everyday. Our bone of contention is WHAT CAUSES US TO MAKE CHOICES. You said (correct me if I am wrong) ... you said external stimulus (I agree) and self-determination. Where in scripture does it say we can choose based of self-determination? Your mind, your being was created by God (you seem to say that your self-determination was created by properties that do not change as initially set by God in Adam and creation and then pass through the generations to you (deism) so you are not FREE; rather, your will has been determined by previous events and unchangeable properties that determine the future, your will. Assuming I understand you, it seems your will is not self-determined ... but determined by properties working through out time.

No, properties are used in the scientific sense. We are not talking about losing weight which is changing your "properties" as you use it above or coloring your hair or cutting it all off. That is changing your "properties" if you will and yes we can. He does sometimes oppose people and in the Bible he tells which ones. It is best to find this out and determine not to be one who he opposes such that their plans are of no effect.

Hmmm ... not sure I understand .... so immutable properties pertain to matter only. Is that what you mean? Like, 99.9999% of the time I agree to that.
Our will is not a property, our will can change? (which I agree to by the way. The crux of the matter IMO is what is the cause of it change.
giggles ... I am getting lost in the minutia

No, science endeavors to find truth. It is not = truth.

Agreed ...
anecdote: and yet the most important truth of all .... that there is a God, this cannot be proven by science. Science has a lot to learn.
Aside: I misread something you said and mistakenly thought you said "science is truth". Phew, possible accidental ToS violation. My bad

Aside: Gee, you are as long-winded as I am. It would help me greatly if you weren't so smart (satire).

 

[Fastfredy0]

Calvinism doesn't seem to have an answer to the question of why God holds sinners responsible for the way he made them other than he just does, and don't question it.

The bible is the ultimate source of truth. Read Romans 9:18-23ish
Short interpretation: you are held responsible because God says so, don't go beyond your station inquiring further and then supplies answers .... basically, God's glory reins and man is not a consideration.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The bible is the ultimate source of truth. Read Romans 9:18-23ish
Short interpretation: you are held responsible because God says so, don't go beyond your station inquiring further and then supplies answers .... basically, God's glory reins and man is not a consideration.

You're just repeating what I said Calvinism says. You just restated Calvin's empty theology.

Calvinism: You're responsible because I said so. Stop asking questions.

Non-Calvinism: You become responsible when I make you responsible.

Clearly, the latter is what is actually taught in the scriptures, and is what is in line with the character of God revealed in scripture. It's a very satisfying explanation for us little worms. One no one need contend with God about. Either you accept your responsibility for your sin in light of the gospel, or you don't.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Your premise ignores the fact that for a while Peter stood on the water and that Christ did not sink ... that the deciding factor was FAITH and apparently not the properties of gravity and relative density of Pete and the water.

Did the properties of the water change as he started to sink? No, as you say, the water didn’t change one molecule. Ergo, We know and it wasn’t special water.

Aside: I was at the dead sea once ... add a little more water and I bet I could walk on it ....j/k

me too, very salty but no, walking wouldn’t work. Nice mud though.

Agreed.... but the statement do not answer the crux of the matter. Why can we seek Him.
You say FREE WILL, I say God changed our desires causing us to seek Him.

Then Him requiring US to seek Him makes no sense. He doesn’t say he does this and no NT preacher says he does this.

Fine... all properties were assigned at creation .... A leads to B leads to C ...... to Z to a person being born. It's complex but God starts the ball rolling and all things occur as dependent on preset properties (also know as deism IMO per aside below) ... that's your stance IMO. I don't agree, but I won't belabor the point further.

Well all of science rests on that and for centuries. Some amazing developments have occurred as a result.

Aside: What is deism and what to deists believe ... https://www.gotquestions.org/deism.html
Aside 2: I have to put in IMO a lot in case the staff wishes to ostracize me for not being 100% accurate in my understanding of your stances.

They do? When? I don’t believe it. I’m on the brink of being booted off.

I fully admit I am not god-like, that I do make mistakes or the person communication could be the issue or whatever (there... giggle ... I hopefully protected my legal butt ... I know you wouldn't accuse me of this ... just a safety aside and hopefully added levity)

No accusations at all. I’m enjoying the interaction. So far you don’t insult and it’s very refreshing. You’re great!

Premise 1: Matthew 6:10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

That’s to be our prayer.

Premise 2: All of Christ's requests to God are granted because He is God (He's basically asking Himself)

Wrong. He asked to avoid the cross. Not granted.

Conclusion: God's sovereign will is done on earth

Premise 2 is wrong. But Jesus asked you to pray his will be done. Why if it always is??

Please provide scripture showing God's will is not followed.

“They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.” Example of His will not being done. Jesus said people would kill others THINKING they are doing the will of God but aren’t. Look around. Do you do the will of God?

I grant His moral will like we should not sin is not done, but His sovereign will overrides his moral instructions and thus sin, for instance, is allowed.

There’s no evidence God sees this split. None at all. But please show in scripture these two wills.

Psalm 115:3 "Our God is in the heavens: he has done whatsoever he has pleased,". ...not he has done whatsoever he has pleased [as determined by the properties of things He created in the beginning (deism)]

Huh? He does what He pleases. Where do you see that we therefore do as He pleases 24/7?

Agreed, we make choices everyday. Our bone of contention is WHAT CAUSES US TO MAKE CHOICES.

We want and don’t have so we take. We don’t have cause we don’t ask. We ask and don’t receive because we ask with wrong motives. What about that description?

You said (correct me if I am wrong) ... you said external stimulus (I agree) and self-determination.

You left out sone other variables. Not wrong, just incomplete.

Where in scripture does it say we can choose based of self-determination?

Look in the mirror. How do you make choices?

Your mind, your being was created by God (you seem to say that your self-determination was created by properties that do not change as initially set by God in Adam and creation and then pass through the generations to you (deism) so you are not FREE; rather, your will has been determined by previous events and unchangeable properties that determine the future, your will.

You are leaving out character formed by a myriad of choices and then habits. Choices become habits. Habits become character. Character determines our destiny.

Assuming I understand you, it seems your will is not self-determined ... but determined by properties working through out time.

Not at all. See James as to why we choose as we do. I paraphrased it.

Hmmm ... not sure I understand .... so immutable properties pertain to matter only. Is that what you mean? Like, 99.9999% of the time I agree to that.
Our will is not a property, our will can change? (which I agree to by the way. The crux of the matter IMO is what is the cause of it change.
giggles ... I am getting lost in the minutia

Apply some real life. That clears up a lot. Why do you choose and why do those you love as you choose.

Agreed ...
anecdote: and yet the most important truth of all .... that there is a God, this cannot be proven by science.

Science is evidenced based, no proofs. Second, science cannot establish courage or honesty or patience or love. They are nevertheless there.

Science has a lot to learn.
Aside: I misread something you said and mistakenly thought you said "science is truth". Phew, possible accidental ToS violation. My bad

Aside: Gee, you are as long-winded as I am. It would help me greatly if you weren't so smart (satire).

You’re sweet. I can’t tell you how deeply exchanging with you blesses me. I am safe as you don’t stab!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why can we seek Him.
You say FREE WILL, I say God changed our desires causing us to seek Him.

Please allow me to butt in.

God’s revelation of himself is what makes it so we can seek him. Inherent in the testimony of God is the faith, the capacity, to believe and trust in that word of testimony. For faith (the evidence and conviction of things not seen) comes to a person through the hearing of the word. And it is upon this supernatural conviction that a person can then choose to retain the word of God’s testimony within themselves and trust in it and be saved. Most reject the testimony of God and choose not to retain the word of faith God has sent to them and they are molded on the Potter’s wheel into vessels fit for destruction (Jeremiah 18:4, Romans 9:22) Just as those who do receive it are molded into vessels prepared for glory (Romans 9:23)

 

[electedbyHim]

Calvinism doesn't seem to have an answer to the question of why God holds sinners responsible for the way he made them other than he just does, and don't question it.

At least in the alternate view, sinners become justly and rightly responsible for the way God made them if they reject His revelation to them that they are the sinner they were predisposed to be and reject His gracious offer to be rescued from the fate of the sinner He predisposed them to be. This is an understandable, rational, and just gospel. Calvinism is not.

Calvinism doesn't seem to have an answer to the question of why God holds sinners responsible for the way he made them other than he just does, and don't question it.

I have read a commentary a while back about this.

Paul was facing the same question in his day and this is how he answered.


Rom 9:18-24 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? WILL THE THING MOLDED SAY TO THE MOLDER, “WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS”? 21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 And what if God, wanting to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction, 23 and in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles?


As finite humans, we want answers to all our Biblical questions. However, God only reveals to us what He wants to in His written word. I just take it on faith and quite honestly, I do not question the Lord and what He does. Our sinful minds tend to think that we can think as God does. What we think is just is not what the Lord considers just.

It reminds me of Job chapters 38-41, where Job was interrogated and schooled by Yawheh to bring a right understanding of Himself.

In my opinion Job-38-41 are some of the best chapters in the Bible.

Probably not the answer you are looking for.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have read a commentary a while back about this.

Paul was facing the same question in his day and this is how he answered.


Rom 9:18-24 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? WILL THE THING MOLDED SAY TO THE MOLDER, “WHY DID YOU MAKE ME LIKE THIS”? 21 Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 And what if God, wanting to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction, 23 and in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles?


As finite humans, we want answers to all our Biblical questions. However, God only reveals to us what He wants to in His written word. I just take it on faith and quite honestly, I do not question the Lord and what He does. Our sinful minds tend to think that we can think as God does. What we think is just is not what the Lord considers just.

It reminds me of Job chapters 38-41, where Job was interrogated and schooled by Yawheh to bring a right understanding of Himself.

In my opinion Job-38-41 are some of the best chapters in the Bible.

Probably not the answer you are looking for.

Grace and peace to you.

Jeremiah 18:1-10 shows us the molding and shaping that God determines that he will do at his own discretion is in this life prior to the final judgement, not prior to creation, and he does it in response to how the clay is responding to his molding and shaping.

He chooses whether or not to continue to work with the marred clay in his hands, and patiently endures those pots he has hardened knowing they are destined for destruction, being unworkable in his hands, but useful for showing the riches of His glory to the vessels prepared in advance on his potter's wheel for glory.

That Biblical interpretation of Romans 9:14-23 I can accept. Calvin's misguided interpretation I can not.

 

[Fastfredy0]

You're just repeating what I said Calvinism says. You just restated Calvin's empty theology.

Agreed, Calvinism says what the bible says.
Premise 1: Calvin said God is love
Premise 2: God said He is love
Premise 3: Jethro says Calvin theology is empty theology
Conclusion: Jethro thinks "God is love" is empty theology

Calvinism: You're responsible because I said so. Stop asking questions.

Non-Calvinism: You become responsible when I make you responsible.

*Scratches his head in bewilderment* So, Calvinism and non-Calvinism agree. What's your point?

Clearly, the latter is what is actually taught in the scriptures, and is what is in line with the character of God revealed in scripture.

I think you need to proof read what you wrote. It doesn't seem coherent to me. It would be authoritative if you can give scripture to support Jethro's theology instead of uncorroborated statements like this idea is wrong and this one is right without foundation.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jeremiah 18:1-10 shows us the molding and shaping that God determines that he will do at his own discretion is in this life prior to the final judgement, not prior to creation, and he does it in response to how the clay is responding to his molding and shaping.

He chooses whether or not to continue to work with the marred clay in his hands, and patiently endures those pots he has hardened knowing they are destined for destruction, being unworkable in his hands, but useful for showing the riches of His glory to the vessels prepared in advance on his wheel for glory.

Romans 9 is about Israel and how God wanted to let in the Gentiles also.
But it's the favorite chapter in all of the bible for the reformed.
They take it to mean individual salvation when it's speaking about corporate salvation,
as Matthew states in Matt 25:31....
31“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

The goats are the heathen nations...
But certainly not because God did not wish to have them be following His will.
God wishes all to be saved...
but not all will be.
John 3:16

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed, Calvinism says what the bible says.
Premise 1: Calvin said God is love

Calvin could say what he wants to say.
But love has to be shown.


Do you love your child/wife/mother because you SAY you love them,
or because you SHOW that you love them with your actions?

Rhetorical question, of course.