In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?

[Jethro Bodine]

You decided God decided to let man decide who is saved and who goes to hell.

God decides when, and where he gives a person the freedom to receive the word of salvation, or not receive the word of salvation. It's only in that open window of God's calling that a person is free to receive salvation or not receive salvation. Man's free will, when he has it, operates within the scope of God's will. Like a rat in a maze. (A fuzzy, cute gerbil in the case of Dorothy. She doesn't like being likened to a rat. ). A maze designed, controlled, and baited by someone outside of the maze to suit their own plan and purpose, not ours.

I struggled with the call of God for about 4 years. Then finally I felt him impressing on my Spirit that if I didn't receive him now he was going to leave me alone for a long time and visit me again late in life. I chose to receive the Lord. Years later I shared this experience with a sister and she said the Lord said the same thing to her.

 

[atpollard]

Only if they reject salvation, not as an automatic consequence of being born to sin.

Romans 10:13-17 [NKJV]

13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved." 14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!" 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "LORD, who has believed our report?" 17 So then faith [comes] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.​

• Everyone without exception has not had an opportunity to hear
• Therefore, the have not have not had an opportunity to believed in the one whom they have not heard about.
• Therefore they have not had an opportunity to call on the one they have not believed in.
• For some, it WAS "an automatic consequence of being born to sin."

God pays back the sinner for being what He made them to be ...

 

[brightfame52]

In Calvinism, God purposely determines ahead of time who will be a lost sinner, and who will be a saved saint, apart from any consideration of what that person wants or wills in the matter. It says God pays back the sinner for being what He made them to be, but says the saint has no responsibility for being what He made them to be. That's a horrible inconsistency.

The inconsistency is in your mind because you wont accept what God has revealed about His Sovereignty in Salvation Rom 9, God has every right to make some men to be vessels of wrath and fit them for destruction, and then make some men to be vessels of mercy and prepare them for Glory Rom 9:13-24

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The inconsistency is in your mind because you wont accept what God has revealed about His Sovereignty in Salvation Rom 9, God has every right to make some men to be vessels of wrath and fit them for destruction, and then make some men to be vessels of mercy and prepare them for Glory Rom 9:13-24

Calvinism doesn't understand that this forming happens here, in this life, as we respond or don't respond favorably to the word of God:

4But the vessel that he was shaping from the clay became flawed in his hand; so he formed it into another vessel, as it seemed best for him to do. Jeremiah 18:4

But, surely, God knew ahead of time who would respond favorably and who would not, and so positions them in history to serve his agenda, not ours (i.e. Pharaoh).

 

[brightfame52]

Calvinism doesn't understand that this forming happens here, in this life, as we respond or don't respond favorably to the word of God:

4But the vessel that he was shaping from the clay became flawed in his hand; so he formed it into another vessel, as it seemed best for him to do. Jeremiah 18:4

But, surely, God knew ahead of time who would respond favorably and who would not, and so positions them in history to serve his agenda, not ours (i.e. Pharaoh).

God made some for mercy, some for wrath.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God made some for mercy, some for wrath.

That is a fact, depending on how they respond in his hands as he's forming them on his potter's wheel.

If they are marred as he's fashioning them on his wheel he makes them into a vessel of wrath as he wills, as he sees is fitting according to his plan and purpose.

 

[brightfame52]

That is a fact, depending on how they respond in his hands as he's forming them on his potter's wheel.

If they are marred as he's fashioning them on his wheel he makes them into a vessel of wrath as he wills, as he sees is fitting according to his plan and purpose.

It doesnt depend on anything but what God had determined before they were made.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It doesnt depend on anything but what God had determined before they were made.

You can't prove that. Nothing in the Bible says that. Don't bother citing Paul's analogy of the potter and the clay. I've shown you from the whole counsel of scripture the full meaning of the clay and the potter analogy and it has nothing to do with determining before creation what kind of pot they will be. It has everything to do with how the clay responds in the hands of the potter in this age and what He does with marred craftsmanship.

 

[brightfame52]

You can't prove that. Nothing in the Bible says that. Don't bother citing Paul's analogy of the potter and the clay. I've shown you from the whole counsel of scripture the full meaning of the clay and the potter analogy and it has nothing to do with determining before creation what kind of pot they will be. It has everything to do with how the clay responds in the hands of the potter in this age and what He does with marred craftsmanship.

Thats something only God can prove in your mind. All I can do is witness to the truth of it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

• Everyone without exception has not had an opportunity to hear
• Therefore, the have not have not had an opportunity to believed in the one whom they have not heard about.
• Therefore they have not had an opportunity to call on the one they have not believed in.
• For some, it WAS "an automatic consequence of being born to sin."

This is where Romans 2:14-16 comes into play.
People who have not heard about the gospel in the law and in the life of Jesus are not left without testimony. They are responsible to the testimony of nature and conscience they have received. Even though it is a limited testimony, they will be either condemned or acquitted on the Day of Christ by how they respond to that testimony, "their thoughts either accusing or defending them" (Romans 2:15).

So, no, there is no such thing as a person of accountable age and capacity who dies solely as the result of being born separated from the life of God. God pays back the soul that rejects his testimony, not the soul that has been unknowingly born into the condemnation of Adam.