Jethro Bodine
Member
No, the Bible says sin is not imputed when there is no law. Calvinism says sin is imputed when there is no law.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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In Calvinism why are the sinners God made responsible for what God has made them?
- Thread starter Jethro Bodine
- Start date
Dorothy Mae
Member
How come He is not causing everyone to obey?
And yes some did not believe. "to as many as believed him...." Not all believed him. Now do you need a scripture to point out that some did not believe? This is a problem we have and I am considering a summary as we are reaching the conclusion of our exchange. You, like a lawyer, demand a cite from the law (scripture) or you claim I do not use any. But this is a kind of shutting down the mind and approaching like we were in a court room. So I am asking if you believe she did not receive him or believe him without me quoting a verse?
Not even evil right? How are those who are not in Christ functioning at all? How does anyone do anything, tie their shoes, hold down a job, etc. who are without him? Or do you think that he is manipulating the whole world even mass murders because "without him the rapists could not rape?" Is this what you think?
"And the spirits of the prophets are subject to -----------------the prophets", not God. Do you know that verse. The spirit inside a prophet is under the control of the prophet, scripture does not say it is under the control of God.
"Choose this day whom you will serve" is God giving a choice to man. Is this for you a cruel joke because God is really choosing in the man for the man and there is no choice. Every single command God gives requires that a man can choose. Why did God give the Ten Commandments if man cannot choose to any of them or any evil or anything at all?
Dorothy Mae
Member
You quoted me that "through me you can do nothing" and claimed that means God is controlling everyone. Now He is controlling only the good we do and not the evil? Why? You claim we have no free will so why is not then God responsible for the choices, all of them, men make if no man has free choice?
But you cannot explain why your theology attributes to Him all the choices man makes and yet not the choices to do wrong. And why are you insulted when in your view, it was God who willed in me to write that? Why that response towards me and not towards the God who is controlling me (in your view?
You don't see this as morally wrong? God determined they would forsake him and punished them for doing so and you are OK with that?
We have likely reached the end as I mentioned. You write God is holy and then "God determined (made it so) that they would forsake him" and punished them for doing so. I will write a summation of the problem I see and why we have reached the end.
I did not mean to do a cheap shot and because we are on written communication tone cannot be communicated. But it was not meant to be that.
Dorothy Mae
Member
Premise 1 is wrong. He does not need to learn from anyone. It is like saying the Mom does not learn anything from the infant teaching them. It is not because the infant cannot yet speak but because she is of superior ability and knowledge. And from the position of your theology, your cannot explain free will. From my position it is perfectly clear.
The conclusion does not follow the premise. One can know without controlling. Sproul deeply underestimated God's abilities.
Whose fault is it that Cain killed Abel if in your view "God determined" every choice and Cain had no free will? You can can it is a mystery if you want.
Problem is scripture shows that God loved Esau and gave him land. The hate came when his descendants became evil.
Unjust
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Never once is any man judged by the deeds of Adam. Not once. They are judged according to THEIR works it says.
There are complex spiritual laws that are just and have both the good and bad inherited. But this we accept without question. If parents are good, their children benefit. If parents are bad, their children suffer. God is not involved as we all see that. And please do not ask me for a scripture for what is obvious to all.
And I answered them with scripture. God said the laws he was giving them were not too difficult. You say they were too difficult. It is not that difficult not to murder, not to steal, not to lie about the doings of others, not to covet what another man has and no on. This is pretty simple stuff and there is a scripture to back up what I said.
Essentially it is a mystery in your view. You present scriptures like a lawyer but if one thinks about it with the mind God gave us so that we could love him with it too, you have no plausible explanation that does not accuse God of what we all know is wrong. You answer is essentially "the way I think is so."
The incidences of God acting in and through and upon man guiding him unbeknownst to that man are rare and always for one of a few purposes. The scriptures describe these although they happen still to this day in the lives of people. The children of God find these to be delightful although the enemy uses such examples in scripture to get men to lay blame for all choices upon God. He is, after all, the Accuser. The accusation is any easy response to a complex question as to the ways of God.
Moses knew the ways of God as did a great many men in the Bible and as so some today. It is past finding out as it is very complex. If one thinks about it, one would expect the ways of a complex being to be complex as well as they are. Saying God causes everything or God made the world and left or God causes nothing is the simple answer of man trying to figure the complex ways of God out. The scripture says that He hides from these who consider themselves wise and intelligent. What one finds in all of these systems is many points where the answer is "it is a mystery" which means "I don't understand" although the man saying it is too proud to admit that and so attributes it to God himself being a mystery.
None of this is a mystery to the man who walks with God, obeys God and has access to Him to ask Him questions as they did Jesus on the road to Emmaus. He opened up the scriptures to them explaining God's ways and purposes from Moses (Genesis) to the present day. They were astounded and deeply blessed to understand. Nothing was a mystery to them that Jesus explained. That is available to any man who is willing to pay the price and wants to learn about God from God.
That is not what I said. I said that spirits hear even if they have no physical ears. That is what I said.
Dorothy Mae
Member
The use of scripture as viewed by one non-calvinist:
I see scripture as the inspired communication of men who walked to varying degrees with God at least for a time and came to know Him, most of them, fairly deeply and desired to communicate that. They had thoughts that reflected the truth as God knows it to be and were moved to write that down for generations to fan the flame of desire to know Him. None of it was written to be mystery to those who wanted to walk close to Him. None of it that I can think of and from knowing Him. He wants to be known. This is eternal life, that we might know Him, the One True God and Jesus his son. There is only one way to acquire this understanding and it is not from reading theology books. It is from walking with God in such a way that He will entrust understanding to you. God can explain God and basically only God can do this as He has to open up the mind to the scriptures as Jesus did. What I see in Calvinist posts is a use of scripture as a law book of what God has to do and much of it unattractive and unjust. When faced with this injustice, it is simply called a mystery which precludes understanding by definition. It is like listening to a prosecutor quoting the law.
I will give a brief paragraph as to my understanding of the ways of God in matters much discussed for anyone's consideration.
God looks at the choices a man makes and makes choices Himself based on those choices. This we see continually in the scripture. It say that "when Moses turned aside to look at the bush" (or similar) then God spoke. Moses had to turn aside from his own free will. When Paul saw that the man had faith to believe, he reached out to heal him and it was so. Abraham was called to leave and he chose to do so, he could have refused. "Choose" means choose. Jesus chose his disciples but they had to choose to come. But God is carefully considering what we do and the smallest movement in the right direction is sometimes enough. Jesus said even giving a cup of water to a child in his name will earn a man a reward. Jesus constantly talked about rewards. The OT talked about blessings upon the obedient (that is, obedient, not merely believing.) Again, we must repent and believe in responses to Him. His call is not a game played that appears to give choice. The choice is real.
When it comes to salvation, it is God alone who can open a man's eyes to see his sin and need for repentance and forgiveness. But the man plays a role, small, insufficient but nevertheless necessary. God wills that all man repent and come to a knowledge of the truth. Why do not all then do so? Because they don't want to do so as this is expensive. It is humbling. It hurts. Jesus himself explained what happens when different people hear the gospel. You can see that sometimes the enemy takes it away but the rest depends upon the heart of the recipient. This is how it is in real life if we look at different responses. But if a man makes slight moves to respond to God, God responds with greater moves. If a man refuses all bidding making excuses in his mind, then God does not force himself upon that man. What happens after that is another subject although scripture also says that grace comes to those who humble themselves so we still play a part in God's interaction in our lives.
If one sees the ways of God in these few things, one can marvel at the great kindness and justice in God himself. He calls but does not compel. CS Lewis says, *he woos but does not take." What is his goal? That we learn to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humble with God. We learn this from God doing justly, loving mercy and seeing Jesus who walked humbly with his Father.
I see scripture as the inspired communication of men who walked to varying degrees with God at least for a time and came to know Him, most of them, fairly deeply and desired to communicate that. They had thoughts that reflected the truth as God knows it to be and were moved to write that down for generations to fan the flame of desire to know Him. None of it was written to be mystery to those who wanted to walk close to Him. None of it that I can think of and from knowing Him. He wants to be known. This is eternal life, that we might know Him, the One True God and Jesus his son. There is only one way to acquire this understanding and it is not from reading theology books. It is from walking with God in such a way that He will entrust understanding to you. God can explain God and basically only God can do this as He has to open up the mind to the scriptures as Jesus did. What I see in Calvinist posts is a use of scripture as a law book of what God has to do and much of it unattractive and unjust. When faced with this injustice, it is simply called a mystery which precludes understanding by definition. It is like listening to a prosecutor quoting the law.
I will give a brief paragraph as to my understanding of the ways of God in matters much discussed for anyone's consideration.
God looks at the choices a man makes and makes choices Himself based on those choices. This we see continually in the scripture. It say that "when Moses turned aside to look at the bush" (or similar) then God spoke. Moses had to turn aside from his own free will. When Paul saw that the man had faith to believe, he reached out to heal him and it was so. Abraham was called to leave and he chose to do so, he could have refused. "Choose" means choose. Jesus chose his disciples but they had to choose to come. But God is carefully considering what we do and the smallest movement in the right direction is sometimes enough. Jesus said even giving a cup of water to a child in his name will earn a man a reward. Jesus constantly talked about rewards. The OT talked about blessings upon the obedient (that is, obedient, not merely believing.) Again, we must repent and believe in responses to Him. His call is not a game played that appears to give choice. The choice is real.
When it comes to salvation, it is God alone who can open a man's eyes to see his sin and need for repentance and forgiveness. But the man plays a role, small, insufficient but nevertheless necessary. God wills that all man repent and come to a knowledge of the truth. Why do not all then do so? Because they don't want to do so as this is expensive. It is humbling. It hurts. Jesus himself explained what happens when different people hear the gospel. You can see that sometimes the enemy takes it away but the rest depends upon the heart of the recipient. This is how it is in real life if we look at different responses. But if a man makes slight moves to respond to God, God responds with greater moves. If a man refuses all bidding making excuses in his mind, then God does not force himself upon that man. What happens after that is another subject although scripture also says that grace comes to those who humble themselves so we still play a part in God's interaction in our lives.
If one sees the ways of God in these few things, one can marvel at the great kindness and justice in God himself. He calls but does not compel. CS Lewis says, *he woos but does not take." What is his goal? That we learn to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humble with God. We learn this from God doing justly, loving mercy and seeing Jesus who walked humbly with his Father.
Well, we disagree as to interpretation.
Premise 1: We are born in sin (I gave verses)
Premise 2: The New born have themselves committed no sin
Conclusion: Imputation of sin to all
Premise 1: Penalty for sin is death
Premise 2: Some babies die
Conclusion: Imputation of sin to all
https://www.gotquestions.org/imputed-sin.html
No sense continuing. We're made our cases. We disagree. Let it go.
Dorothy Mae
Member
I thought I would explain my claiming to belong to the „big boys” when it comes to engaging in calvinists theology. The reason is I don’t use quotes by theologians supporting my position. I don’t use links either. I don’t borrow any material AT ALL from other people’s thinking. All of what I write, 100%, comes from my own thinking/study/understanding. This means I don’t run to anyone (but God) when debating these things. So I’m in the league of those who alone have the goods to discuss. I don’t need other people to tell me how to answer.
Well, in heaven God is causing everyone one to obey. Assuming we have 'free will', God has taken it away. Which makes the statement that one cannot love God without 'free will' imply we won't love God in heaven.
Aside: So many premises I believe to be false .... but the 'free willies' can figure out a solution to the problem I have shown. (Granted, this is a subset to the 'free willers".
Reason for not causing everyone to obey on earth currently ... the answer God gives is in Job Chapter 38-40 (paraphrase: I AM, can you do this or that? you are pond scum, you are insolent to even inquire) ..
“Will the faultfinder contend with the Almighty?
Let him who disputes with God answer it.”
3 Then Job replied to the Lord and said, 4 “Behold, I am of little importance and contemptible; what can I reply to You?
I lay my hand on my mouth. 5 “I have spoken once, but I will not reply again— Indeed, twice [I have answered], and I will add nothing further.”
and Romans 8:18-23.
.... so when you ask God this question I will be sitting in the back row
Aside: God is the First Cause ... he has no antecedents... there is no "Why did God do this or that" save the answer "I AM".
RE: 28 Then they asked Him, “What are we to do, so that we may habitually be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe
You didn't address the verse as to the reason people believed. Stating some believe and some don't ignores the crux of the discussion which is what causes a person to believe. God chooses who to save (I can give 40ish verses) and of course those He does choose are not saved by God's determinative work (v. 29)
I will draw an simple picture:
Premise 1: We are not saved by works (i can give verses if you like... I assume we agree)
Premise 2: Faith/belief is a WORK, v. 29,
Premise 3: The Guy doing the work is God v.29
Conclusion: The cause of the work of faith is God
No, I agree, some did not believe. Again, the crux of the discussion is WHO DETERMINED/CAUSED them to believe. I say GOD, you say FREE WILL powered by I still don't know what. Some people believe, some don't; that's a valid observation but does not answer the question at hand (or maybe I don't know the question at hand.
Yes, I supply scriptural evidence and you do not. Usually the jury goes with the evidence.
If I supply scriptural evidence you can't explain then you have a problem.
Not only do I supply evidence that GOD's will determines who is saved, I provided scripture showing man's will IS NOT INVOLVED.
John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].
see preservation, Acts 17:28a, Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 1:3, Romans 11:36, Job 34:14-15 ... I can give verses for "Preservation" if needed. I don't see how this is germane ... but anyways
I don't know the verse you're referring to. God controls the prophet who controls the spirit. Just because verses don't state every item in a causal chain does mean it does not exist. I.E. the car steering wheel controls the movement of the tires. Not the statement doesn't say the driver controls the steering wheel ... the statement does not go into that depth. You can't prove a point because of potentially missing information; you can't assume.
Give a verse that explicitly says God does not control anything. So far, as best I recall, you gave one that I said was anthropomorphic and gave evidence that you did not refute.
Time to go on offense ... some questions for you to ponder:
Premise 2: I is not possible for even God to know what nothing will do in the future
Conclusion; God’s knowledge of His children’s identify must be the effect of His actions alone.
Aside: The forum editor is giving me issues (or vice versa)
- “Free will” makes the work of the Spirit of no effect in regards to initial salvation inconsistent with basic Christianity since we all know that the natural man is hostile to God and will not willingly submit to the humbling terms of the gospel for he can only choose according to the desires (love of darkness) of his fallen nature. (see Depravity)
- If you admit that God is permitting something, how can one not say God did not want it to happen? The answer is self-evident ... all things God permits are things He was willing to happen or He would have stopped it.
- How is it that my 'free will' can cancel the "free will" of another? For example, I murder someone who otherwise would be saved in the future ... or Hilter kills millions, many of which given the chance would have turned to God. It seems that one person's "free will" can override the "free will" of another. So a "free will" proponent is perfectly OK with the ability of one man's ability to determine another man's eternal destiny, but not allowing God to do the same. Yet God let's it happen and thus determines that you do not have "free will".
Premise 2: I is not possible for even God to know what nothing will do in the future
Conclusion; God’s knowledge of His children’s identify must be the effect of His actions alone.
- If you believe Jesus accomplishes the exact same for ALL, and nothing more, this would mean that people, who end up in heaven, are not there because of what Jesus did... because... you also believe Jesus accomplished the exact same, and nothing less, for those who end up in hell... and they are not saved! This would mean that Jesus did not make the difference! Therefore you believe that those who are in heaven are there because of something other than Jesus... if they end up in heaven! If this is true then Jesus is only the means for those who save themselves!
- If God knows that by creating you, you will end up in hell (and nothing can change what he knows), how has God not determined you will end up in hell by creating you? Note: God determined to bring you into existence and He upholds all things. He could have determined that you not be hell bound by not creating you. God could have created you so you would choose to belief if you believe He can do anything. If you admit God can do this then you are admitting God is the ultimate determiner.
- If man has “free will” then God is a robot as He must respond to man’s input in regards to salvation. We are the cause for what God does. Although God can react theoretically in billions of ways, He will always react in the ‘best way’ but this is not so if man has ‘free will’ for he would determine what God does; in effect God is man’s robot. In other words, if God is to have the best possible outcome, how can he do so if He must rely on man’s “free will” to make decisions; leaving God with only 2nd, 3rd and 4th best outcomes.
- How is God glorified by events that are determined by man as the initial cause? Note: God does not share his glory with anyone.
- If God knew Adam would disobey, is one to believe there is no way God could have prevented Adam’s disobedience? God couldn’t have given Adam a sterner warning, visions or whatever it took?
- If “free will” is true, why has there never been a sinless human?
- For those who believe in ‘eternal security’ and ‘free will’; does ‘eternal security’ nullify ‘free will’ since I not change my mind as to believe/not believe?
- How does “free will” for all without exception account for those who will never hear the gospel all thus cannot be saved?
- Why would God willing choose to send the gospel to someone he knows will reject it, thus causing a worse situation due to the penalty of unbelief?
- “Free will” would make prayer for someone’s salvation irrelevant. “Free will” would make the influence of family and Christians irrelevant. Statistically, there is a definite correlation between believing parents and the probability of believing off spring which is contrary to the ‘free will’ postulate.
- How can God know what you are going to do in the future if via "free will" He has caused your actions to be self-determined? Foreknowledge requires antecedents.
- Could God have created you differently and thus change you choices?
- If “free will” be free from God’s determination of anything we do, this is deism. To think that God is in control and you can still do what you want is a contradiction. To deny God determined any event that would modify your choice is contrary to empirical evidence.
- How can God get all He desires to happen if man’s free will determines events? Does the wisdom of the inferior who at one time was nothing guide the superior?
- From a 'free will' perspective, how does giving man: free will" absolve God of responsibility? If one grants that God gives man self-determination (free will) and acknowledges God knows that that person will not use his 'free will' to believe salvificly, how does that absolve God responsibility for evil. I give a man a gun knowing he will use it to murder and yet I am not responsible for evil ... how can this be
Aside: The forum editor is giving me issues (or vice versa)
Dorothy Mae
Member
A bunch of robots right? That was not my question. Why isn't God causing everyone here to obey if God is causing all actions people do? I mean, let me be kind. There is no answer, dear Fred. Just say "it is a mystery" or be more humble and say "I cannot explain it" because you cannot. There is no explanation from your theology.
"The gifts and callings of God are without repentance." (He doesn't take away free will.)
What was the problem? ("Free willies" is pretty cute. I laughed.
That is saying "there is no answer" which is what I predicted. That is NOT an answer. "Don't ask" is not an answer. And while Calvinism refers to man a "pond scum" apparently, God literally said to Job, "Stand up and talk to me (gird up your loins or pull yourself together in modern language) like a man." He does not share your theological opinion of man.
Notice Job is humble as to regarding his own importance which is correct. But he is not disrespectful of how God sees him. This is generally explained as repentance. As to my interaction with God, been there done that. The outcome is not what you might expect nor is the interview.
God does not see it that way nor did anyone who wrote the Bible. Calvinists see him that way but no one who knows Him does. It is rather insulting, like he is a particular in physics.
Do you know what "believe" means to Jesus? It means if you believe you will say to that mount "move" and it will. This is not merely a mental ascent to a position.
Jesus addressed this is the parable of the different soils. Do you know that parable or do I need to cut and paste if for you? He answered your question and in none of the people was God's decision the reason....none...not a one. God does not determine who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell before they were born. You have no verses to support this. What you have is isolated sentences that are twisted to accuse God of this injustice.
No, faith is not a work. A work is something you DO, not something you THINK.
They did. Jesus himself said the problem was the soil itself, not the sower, nor the gardener, nor the waterer.
No you do not. You site scripture like a lawyer parsing it and ignoring other bits. But this is going no where. You like the scriptures you choose and ignore the rest.
No you did not. Jesus explained what happens when the Gospel is presented to people and what happens and no where is God choosing which soil produces fruit. No where. This you have to ignore.
They had to receive him FIRST. That is what it says. Then they were born of the will of God AFTER they had received him. Nicodemus had received him and believed him to be the Messiah, but he was not yet born again.
That is NOT what the scripture says. It says the spirit of the prophet is controlled by the prophet. But you have to change that to match your theology. This is what you have to do, change the scripture rather than scripture change your thinking.
We are not a car. And the Bible explains that the spirit of a man is subject to the man, not God. I know you believe God causes all decisions and all things and so it just has to be inserted. I tell you that you will have more mysteries from this view than if you would be open to reconsidering.
I cannot give you a verse that says that God hears all prayers everywhere. You cannot give a verse that says that God controls the choices you made yesterday and yet you believe it. IDo you not see that the Bible assumes we can think. When God says "choose, obey, thou shalt not, thou shalt, etc." is assume we can and that He is not controlling that. It is not a farce which you have to believe. Doesn't that feel uncomfortable to embrace the idea that the whole of human history is just a farce and God is controlling everything everyone does and punishing or rewarding them afterwards?
How can you love a Being like that? Who would like to be married to someone who controls your every word and thought and action?
In the end, I am not seeking to win. I am seeking that you consider what your theology says of God and I can say without exception, no Reformed Theology adherent could ever explain God Himself, his ways and values and what He is like from personal experience. The wall of Him manipulating prevents that which makes sense. If someone thought I was manipulating their every thought and word and deed, I would not reveal myself to them either.
Dorothy Mae
Member
No it does not. Man can freely choose to repent and believe or freely chose to reject the Gospel. There is no problem.
No, but the answer is complex and takes more room than 1000 characters. If a parent permits their teen to drive their car and an accident ensures, it does not mean the wanted it to happen. In your view, how can one not say that the parent did not want that to happen?
When you kidnap a man, your free will has cancelled his. Isn't this obvious?
Nothing is incapable of doing anything. That is a part of being nothing.
Huh? To as many as received him gave he the power to become the sons of God. Whosoever will....
No, God has made life such that we can reproduce without his help. I mean, elementary biology teaches this. We do not need a miracle to conceive a child. It is his will that living creatures can reproduce. He made it to run without his interference or support.
This requires understanding the ways of God and they are more complex that nuclear physics. But let's give an example. A child has free will. The parent responds to the child. But the parent is not therefore a robot. Isn't that clear?
How is God glorified by micromanaging everything. How is God glorified by a world of robots? How is God glorified by causing everything that happens and no can one even love him or do anything to please Him because he is forcing them? Is that really a world glorifying God?
Do not begin to think you are better than God. It is a mistake. I understand why God did what He did and the reasons are very good and rational. But it would be another post by itself and I am not sure you would accept it since you think he is forcing people to make the choices they do. If one goes to God for understanding, one must believe that He is morally good. If that is not there, there is no foundation to understand how particular situations.
How do you know there was not? Enoch was so good he did not die. But the Biblical answer is "sin entered the world." If God wants us to do good, why was there ever an evil person?
I can answer all of them but the number of characters is limited. I have to say my heart rejoiced when I read that you are going on the offensive (not mean being offensive at all but are very much to the discussion.) I can take it. But I do have an advantage, when I first encountered reformed theology some years ago and was in debate, I asked God when I got stuck. Since then I do not need to do so. He usually gave the same answer anyway.
Me too. (I mean the editor, not you.)
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Again, when it come the WHY God did X or Y you will have to ask him. I already gave God's partial answer with Job chapter 38,39 and 40 .. and Romans 8:18-23 .... you will have to ask him for further information.
Yes, God gives us commandments and a choice to obey them or not, but he does not give us the ability to obey them perfectly. You will always choose what you desire most at the time. Sometimes you choose to obey and sometimes you do not. God has given man a depraved mind (I can list 50ish verses to confirm if you want) such that we are not capable of obeying perfectly.
... I gave many verses showing GOD asks us to do things we can't do
Technical correction .. .I say we don't have FREE WILL the way you define it.
God and Responsibility
Sin deals with laws. There's no law that says God can't control sin. There's no law that says that God can't plan or purpose or predetermine sin. There's no law that says that God must give you free will to hold you responsible. These are all false assumptions and they're directly refuted by Hebrews 1:3. How do you assert Hebrews 1:3 if God must be metaphysically disconnected from you when you're sinning for then he's not upholding your existence by his power. This contradicts the bible.
By definition, "responsibility" refers to accountability. For one to be morally responsible means that he is morally accountable to some person or standard. Whether this person is free is irrelevant. The only relevant issue is whether the one who has authority over this person has decided to hold him accountable. Since God rules over all of humanity, and he has decided to judge every man, this means that every person is morally responsible, regardless of whether he is free. Human freedom has no logical place to enter the discussion. V. Cheung
LOL ... hey I see where you are coming from.
Premise 1: God gave us a depraved mind
Premise 2: God holds you responsible even though the deck is stacked against you by him.
Conclusion: God holds you to account, so do I (hey, I know you mean well as do I)
Answered previously ...hey, from man's point of view I would agree but the bible contradicts man natural point of view. You avoid the crux of the question. You dwell on your perceived negative effects of the question at hand as a proof. If God controls ALL THINGS is true then the effects, whatever they be must follow. You shouldn't use the effects that don't appeal to you as proof that the cause is true or false. Use scripture or logic like 1+1=2 to disprove my point.
Premise 1: God determines all things (I gave scripture to prove it) .. this is the crux of the matter. If premise 1 is true then FREE WILL as you define is false
Premise 2: you have not given scripture to disprove it save what I called an anthropomorphism which I gave scripture and logic to disprove or at least cast doubt upon
Conclusion: you have to live with the effects of premise 1 unless you can disprove it.
Getting tired ... .you may win by attrition .... I still think you should give me a handicap
Amen!
The Gospel according to Jesus:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
The Gospel according to Calvinism:
For God so loved the
JLB
Premise 1: a subset of "FREE WILL" is defined as the ability to self-determine whether to believe or not believe in regards to salvation
Premise 2: To be saved one must have FAITH and REPENTANCE
Premise 3: Infallible scripture tells us the source of FAITH and REPENTANCE is God and therefore not man
Premise 4: for the sake of argument, if one can prove one does not have FREE WILL in regards to salvation then one can assume we don't have free will for anything else
Premise 5: Dorothy Mae agrees to premise 1, 2, 3 and 4 if premise 3 can be proven by scripture.
Proof of Premise 3 follows ( will get lazy and only quote verses showing the source of faith is God, not man:
Deuteronomy 29:2 Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his servants, and to all his land; 3 the great trials [of Pharaoh] which your eyes have seen, the signs and those great wonders. 4 Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart and mind to understand, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.
Psalm 80:3 Turn us again, O God; and cause thy face to shine, and we shall be saved.
Psalm 85:4 Turn us, O God of our salvation.
Jeremiah 24:7 I will give them a heart to know Me, [understanding fully] that I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart.
Matthew 16:15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), the Son of the living God.” 17 Then Jesus answered him, “Blessed [happy, spiritually secure, favored by God] are you, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood (mortal man) did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. [Peter’s belief (faith) as to the identity of Christ comes from God]
Mark 9:24 Immediately the father of the boy cried out [with a desperate, piercing cry], saying, “I do believe; help [me overcome] my unbelief.” The man relies on God for faith and not himself.
Luke 17:5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” It would seem that at a minimum God can be the cause of a portion of our faith. More likely, unless faith was totally given by God, the apostles would not have made this statement.
Luke 22:32 Jesus said to Peter, "I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail". He did not ask Peter to maintain his faith so that God could continue to favor him, but it is up to God whether a person's faith fails.
John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh [the flesh is carnal and flesh always lusteth against the Spirit], nor of the will of man, but of GOD.
John 3:8 The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound thereof, but cannot tell whence it comes, and where it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” Clearly this verse defines faith as a work. Thus faith must originate from God since God’s grace does not include man works (Galatians 5:2).
Acts 3:16 And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health and complete wholeness in your presence.
Acts 13:48b and all those who had been appointed (designated, ordained) to eternal life [by God] believed [in Jesus as the Christ and their Savior].
Act 18:27 When he arrived, he was a great help to those who, through grace, had believed and had followed Jesus as Lord and Savior, The source of “grace” is God; otherwise, it is not GRACE
Roman 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith [your trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness] is being proclaimed in all the world. Paul implies that faith had been received from God. Faith is God’s gift; for thanksgiving is an acknowledgment of a benefit. Paul who gives thanks to God for faith, confesses that it comes from him.
Romans 8:8 those who are in the flesh cannot please God [this implies that “faith” must come from God; otherwise, we would have a contradiction for “faith” pleases God and therefore cannot come from the unregenerate man as man in the flesh cannot please God]
Romans 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh and are controlled by its unholy desires set their minds on and pursue those things which gratify the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit and are controlled by the desires of the Spirit set their minds on and seek those things which gratify the [Holy] Spirit. … 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. – faith is pleasing to God and part of God’s law, thus since of the flesh cannot please God, they cannot generate faith of themselves 8 So then those who are living the life of the flesh [catering to the appetites and impulses of their carnal nature] cannot please or satisfy God, or be acceptable to Him. If unregenerate people could choose Christ, then they could be subject to at least do something that is pleasing to God which would contradict. The verse.
Romans 12:3b as God has apportioned to each a degree of faith [and a purpose designed for service]. Note: It is God doing the apportioning
Romans 15:13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing [through the experience of your faith] that by the power of the Holy Spirit you will abound in hope and overflow with confidence in His promises. [Note: the power of the Holy Spirit is the source of confidence in His promises (faith) and not individual effort.]
Acts 13:48b and all those who had been appointed (designated, ordained) to eternal life [by God] believed [in Jesus as the Christ and their Savior].
1 Corinthians 2:4 And my language and my message were not set forth in persuasive (enticing and plausible) words of wisdom, but they were in demonstration of the [Holy] Spirit and power [a proof by the Spirit and power of God, operating on me and stirring in the minds of my hearers the most holy emotions and thus persuading them],
1 Corinthians 2:5 So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the power of God. The power of God is the means by which faith has been generated. Verse 4 being repeated in 1 Thessalonians 1:5 for our good news [regarding salvation] came to you not only in word, but also in [its inherent] power and in the Holy Spirit and with great conviction [on our part].
1 Corinthians 2:12-16
1 Corinthians 4:7 "Who maketh thee to differ from another? And what hast thou that thou didst not receive? Now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?". Arminians would say the Spirit's work of conviction is the same both in the converted and in the unconverted! That which distinguishes the one class from the other, is that the former yielded to His strivings, whereas the latter resist them. But if this were the case, then the Christian would make himself to "differ", whereas the Scripture attributes the "differing" to God's sovereign and discriminating grace,
End of Part 1
Premise 2: To be saved one must have FAITH and REPENTANCE
Premise 3: Infallible scripture tells us the source of FAITH and REPENTANCE is God and therefore not man
Premise 4: for the sake of argument, if one can prove one does not have FREE WILL in regards to salvation then one can assume we don't have free will for anything else
Premise 5: Dorothy Mae agrees to premise 1, 2, 3 and 4 if premise 3 can be proven by scripture.
Proof of Premise 3 follows ( will get lazy and only quote verses showing the source of faith is God, not man:
Deuteronomy 29:2 Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his servants, and to all his land; 3 the great trials [of Pharaoh] which your eyes have seen, the signs and those great wonders. 4 Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart and mind to understand, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.
Psalm 80:3 Turn us again, O God; and cause thy face to shine, and we shall be saved.
Psalm 85:4 Turn us, O God of our salvation.
Jeremiah 24:7 I will give them a heart to know Me, [understanding fully] that I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart.
- Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart [a new heart], and put a new spirit within them. I will take from them the heart of stone, and will give them a heart of flesh [that is responsive to My touch], 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
Matthew 16:15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed), the Son of the living God.” 17 Then Jesus answered him, “Blessed [happy, spiritually secure, favored by God] are you, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood (mortal man) did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. [Peter’s belief (faith) as to the identity of Christ comes from God]
Mark 9:24 Immediately the father of the boy cried out [with a desperate, piercing cry], saying, “I do believe; help [me overcome] my unbelief.” The man relies on God for faith and not himself.
Luke 17:5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” It would seem that at a minimum God can be the cause of a portion of our faith. More likely, unless faith was totally given by God, the apostles would not have made this statement.
Luke 22:32 Jesus said to Peter, "I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail". He did not ask Peter to maintain his faith so that God could continue to favor him, but it is up to God whether a person's faith fails.
John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh [the flesh is carnal and flesh always lusteth against the Spirit], nor of the will of man, but of GOD.
John 3:8 The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound thereof, but cannot tell whence it comes, and where it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” Clearly this verse defines faith as a work. Thus faith must originate from God since God’s grace does not include man works (Galatians 5:2).
- John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh conveys no benefit [it is of no account]. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life [providing eternal life]… 65 And He was saying, “This is the reason why I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him [that is, unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.”
Acts 3:16 And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health and complete wholeness in your presence.
Acts 13:48b and all those who had been appointed (designated, ordained) to eternal life [by God] believed [in Jesus as the Christ and their Savior].
Act 18:27 When he arrived, he was a great help to those who, through grace, had believed and had followed Jesus as Lord and Savior, The source of “grace” is God; otherwise, it is not GRACE
Roman 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith [your trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness] is being proclaimed in all the world. Paul implies that faith had been received from God. Faith is God’s gift; for thanksgiving is an acknowledgment of a benefit. Paul who gives thanks to God for faith, confesses that it comes from him.
Romans 8:8 those who are in the flesh cannot please God [this implies that “faith” must come from God; otherwise, we would have a contradiction for “faith” pleases God and therefore cannot come from the unregenerate man as man in the flesh cannot please God]
Romans 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh and are controlled by its unholy desires set their minds on and pursue those things which gratify the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit and are controlled by the desires of the Spirit set their minds on and seek those things which gratify the [Holy] Spirit. … 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. – faith is pleasing to God and part of God’s law, thus since of the flesh cannot please God, they cannot generate faith of themselves 8 So then those who are living the life of the flesh [catering to the appetites and impulses of their carnal nature] cannot please or satisfy God, or be acceptable to Him. If unregenerate people could choose Christ, then they could be subject to at least do something that is pleasing to God which would contradict. The verse.
Romans 12:3b as God has apportioned to each a degree of faith [and a purpose designed for service]. Note: It is God doing the apportioning
Romans 15:13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing [through the experience of your faith] that by the power of the Holy Spirit you will abound in hope and overflow with confidence in His promises. [Note: the power of the Holy Spirit is the source of confidence in His promises (faith) and not individual effort.]
Acts 13:48b and all those who had been appointed (designated, ordained) to eternal life [by God] believed [in Jesus as the Christ and their Savior].
1 Corinthians 2:4 And my language and my message were not set forth in persuasive (enticing and plausible) words of wisdom, but they were in demonstration of the [Holy] Spirit and power [a proof by the Spirit and power of God, operating on me and stirring in the minds of my hearers the most holy emotions and thus persuading them],
1 Corinthians 2:5 So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the power of God. The power of God is the means by which faith has been generated. Verse 4 being repeated in 1 Thessalonians 1:5 for our good news [regarding salvation] came to you not only in word, but also in [its inherent] power and in the Holy Spirit and with great conviction [on our part].
1 Corinthians 2:12-16
1 Corinthians 4:7 "Who maketh thee to differ from another? And what hast thou that thou didst not receive? Now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?". Arminians would say the Spirit's work of conviction is the same both in the converted and in the unconverted! That which distinguishes the one class from the other, is that the former yielded to His strivings, whereas the latter resist them. But if this were the case, then the Christian would make himself to "differ", whereas the Scripture attributes the "differing" to God's sovereign and discriminating grace,
End of Part 1
Part 2 of ?
1 Corinthians 2:4 And my language and my message were not set forth in persuasive (enticing and plausible) words of wisdom, but they were in demonstration of the [Holy] Spirit and power [a proof by the Spirit and power of God, operating on me and stirring in the minds of my hearers the most holy emotions and thus persuading them],
1 Corinthians 2:5 So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the power of God. The power of God is the means by which faith has been generated. Verse 4 being repeated in 1 Thessalonians 1:5 for our good news [regarding salvation] came to you not only in word, but also in [its inherent] power and in the Holy Spirit and with great conviction [on our part].
1 Corinthians 2:12-16
1 Corinthians 4:7 "Who maketh thee to differ from another? And what hast thou that thou didst not receive? Now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?". Arminians would say the Spirit's work of conviction is the same both in the converted and in the unconverted! That which distinguishes the one class from the other, is that the former yielded to His strivings, whereas the latter resist them. But if this were the case, then the Christian would make himself to "differ", whereas the Scripture attributes the "differing" to God's sovereign and discriminating grace,
1 Corinthians 12:3b And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit. [The confession of the Lordship of Christ in saving faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Tom Constable: no one would sincerely acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, Savior and or Sovereign, unless the Holy Spirit had some influence over him or her. Contrarily, “free will” claims ones ability to believe is free from the influence of the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, [If the unregenerate, spiritually dead, slave-to-sin natural man outside of Christ is capable of saving faith, why would a regenerate, born again, freed-from-sin spiritual man in Christ need a gift of faith?]
Galatians 5:5 For we [not relying on the Law but] through the [strength and power of the Holy] Spirit, by faith, are waiting [confidently] for the hope of righteousness [the completion of our salvation]. [source of our faith is the Spirit]
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Faith is indeed the fruit of the Spirit, and therefore the gift of the Spirit must precede the exercise of Faith. While the translation speak of “faithfulness”, the Greek word is simply “faith.” The HCSB uses the word FAITH.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed and worthy of praise be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ, whereof surely faith is not the least.
Ephesians 1:15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers; [thanking God for our faith… notice the words “for you”, it does not say “to you”]
Ephesians 1:19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might ESV
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened [made alive those whom were spiritually dead … no one can resurrect himself physically or spiritually], who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 In which at one time you walked [habitually]. You were following the course and fashion of this world [were under the sway of the tendency of this present age], following the prince of the power of the air. [You were obedient to and under the control of] the [demon] spirit that still constantly works in the sons of disobedience [the careless, the rebellious, and the unbelieving, who go against the purposes of God]. …4 But God, being [so very] rich in mercy, because of His great and wonderful love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were [spiritually] dead and separated from Him because of our sins, He made us [spiritually] alive [regeneration] together with Christ (for by His grace—His undeserved favor and mercy—you have been saved from God’s judgment).
1 Corinthians 2:4 And my language and my message were not set forth in persuasive (enticing and plausible) words of wisdom, but they were in demonstration of the [Holy] Spirit and power [a proof by the Spirit and power of God, operating on me and stirring in the minds of my hearers the most holy emotions and thus persuading them],
1 Corinthians 2:5 So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the power of God. The power of God is the means by which faith has been generated. Verse 4 being repeated in 1 Thessalonians 1:5 for our good news [regarding salvation] came to you not only in word, but also in [its inherent] power and in the Holy Spirit and with great conviction [on our part].
1 Corinthians 2:12-16
1 Corinthians 4:7 "Who maketh thee to differ from another? And what hast thou that thou didst not receive? Now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?". Arminians would say the Spirit's work of conviction is the same both in the converted and in the unconverted! That which distinguishes the one class from the other, is that the former yielded to His strivings, whereas the latter resist them. But if this were the case, then the Christian would make himself to "differ", whereas the Scripture attributes the "differing" to God's sovereign and discriminating grace,
1 Corinthians 12:3b And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit. [The confession of the Lordship of Christ in saving faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Tom Constable: no one would sincerely acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, Savior and or Sovereign, unless the Holy Spirit had some influence over him or her. Contrarily, “free will” claims ones ability to believe is free from the influence of the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, [If the unregenerate, spiritually dead, slave-to-sin natural man outside of Christ is capable of saving faith, why would a regenerate, born again, freed-from-sin spiritual man in Christ need a gift of faith?]
Galatians 5:5 For we [not relying on the Law but] through the [strength and power of the Holy] Spirit, by faith, are waiting [confidently] for the hope of righteousness [the completion of our salvation]. [source of our faith is the Spirit]
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, Faith is indeed the fruit of the Spirit, and therefore the gift of the Spirit must precede the exercise of Faith. While the translation speak of “faithfulness”, the Greek word is simply “faith.” The HCSB uses the word FAITH.
Ephesians 1:3 Blessed and worthy of praise be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms in Christ, whereof surely faith is not the least.
Ephesians 1:15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all God’s people, 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers; [thanking God for our faith… notice the words “for you”, it does not say “to you”]
Ephesians 1:19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to the working of his great might ESV
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened [made alive those whom were spiritually dead … no one can resurrect himself physically or spiritually], who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 In which at one time you walked [habitually]. You were following the course and fashion of this world [were under the sway of the tendency of this present age], following the prince of the power of the air. [You were obedient to and under the control of] the [demon] spirit that still constantly works in the sons of disobedience [the careless, the rebellious, and the unbelieving, who go against the purposes of God]. …4 But God, being [so very] rich in mercy, because of His great and wonderful love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were [spiritually] dead and separated from Him because of our sins, He made us [spiritually] alive [regeneration] together with Christ (for by His grace—His undeserved favor and mercy—you have been saved from God’s judgment).
Part 3 or ?
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this [referring to salvation through faith] is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works (not founded upon anything in the believer himself), so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
“And this is not your own doing.” The word “this” must have an antecedent, which would normally be the closest preceding noun. In this case, “this” would refer back to “faith.” Paul is not saying that grace is not our own doing. That would be redundant, because if it were our own doing, it would not be gracious at all. Rather, he says that faith is not our own doing. That does not mean that faith is not found in us; it is found in us. It does not mean that it is someone else’s faith by which we are justified. It is, properly speaking, our faith, for we are the ones who have it, the ones who are exercising it. But it is not our own doing, meaning that we are not the origin of it. It is not something that we have generated by our own power, nor does it originate in our flesh. R.C. Sproul Truths We Confess
Furthermore, if synergism is embraced, then there is the very real but subtle danger that men could boast that they made use of God's grace or had more wisdom than the man who rejected Christ. They could boast that they are different for, unlike others, they responded to Christ. The autonomous natural man would, then, ultimately determine His own salvation, not God. Since a work is a purpose achieved by physical or mental exertion. To believe is a difficult task; the Bible says it is foolishness to the unsaved and no one seeks God. Finally, the context of the verse (2:1-10) forbids the idea that man has any positive role in his own salvation. The verses include expressions like, "by grace you have been saved," "this not from yourselves," "it is the gift of God," "not by works," "so that no one can boast," "we are God's work," "created in Christ Jesus to do good works," "which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Also, the immediate context of the verse (2:1-10) forbids the idea that man has any positive role in his own salvation. Verses 1-3 describe our spiritual depravity before conversion, saying that we were dead in transgressions and sins, that we followed after the flesh, the world, and the devil. Then, verses 4-7 teach that it is by God's initiative – his love, grace, and kindness – that he has raised and seated us with Christ. We see expressions like, "his great love for us," "God...is rich in mercy," "[God] made us alive with Christ," "God raise us up with Christ," "[God]seated us with him," "that...he might show...his grace," "...expressed in his kindness to us," and so on. Verses 8-continue from the above and are clearly intended to ascribe all the power and initiative to God in our salvation. The verses include expressions like, "by grace you have been saved," "this not from yourselves," "it is the gift of God," "not by works," "so that no one can boast," "we are God's work," "created in Christ Jesus to do good works," "which God prepared in advance for us to do. "The whole passage emphasizes our depravity and inability, and then God's grace and God's work. We were altogether sinful and impotent, and every spiritual good produced in us comes from God's sovereign grace and power. So how do we suddenly get a faith that comes from "free will"? It would contradict the content and the intent of the entire section.
Finally, since the "grace" in salvation is by definition something that God gives and exercises, and not something produced or exercised by men, it would appear redundant and unnecessary to say that the "grace" is" not from yourselves." Vincent Cheung – Commentary on Ephesians
Ephesians 6:23 Peace be to the brothers and sisters, and love joined with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. that is, an increase of these graces, and of the exercise of them, is wished for; for otherwise these brethren had both these graces, faith and love; see Ephesians 1:15
Philippians 1:29 For you have been granted [from the Greek term charizomai, “to give as a gift. Literally means “to give, render, or grant graciously.”] [the privilege] for Christ’s sake not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer in His behalf.
Philippians 2:13 For it is [not your strength, but it is] God who is effectively at work in you, both to will and to work [that is, strengthening, energizing, and creating in you the longing and the ability to fulfill your purpose] for His good pleasure.
Philippians 3:9 and may be found in Him [believing and relying on Him], not having any righteousness of my own derived from [my obedience to] the Law and its rituals, but [possessing] that [genuine righteousness] which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith. Faith is an act of righteousness. We must have faith to be saved. Since we have no righteous of our own, said faith must come from, that is faith is caused by God.
Gee... I could go on.... I will stop
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this [referring to salvation through faith] is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works (not founded upon anything in the believer himself), so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
“And this is not your own doing.” The word “this” must have an antecedent, which would normally be the closest preceding noun. In this case, “this” would refer back to “faith.” Paul is not saying that grace is not our own doing. That would be redundant, because if it were our own doing, it would not be gracious at all. Rather, he says that faith is not our own doing. That does not mean that faith is not found in us; it is found in us. It does not mean that it is someone else’s faith by which we are justified. It is, properly speaking, our faith, for we are the ones who have it, the ones who are exercising it. But it is not our own doing, meaning that we are not the origin of it. It is not something that we have generated by our own power, nor does it originate in our flesh. R.C. Sproul Truths We Confess
Furthermore, if synergism is embraced, then there is the very real but subtle danger that men could boast that they made use of God's grace or had more wisdom than the man who rejected Christ. They could boast that they are different for, unlike others, they responded to Christ. The autonomous natural man would, then, ultimately determine His own salvation, not God. Since a work is a purpose achieved by physical or mental exertion. To believe is a difficult task; the Bible says it is foolishness to the unsaved and no one seeks God. Finally, the context of the verse (2:1-10) forbids the idea that man has any positive role in his own salvation. The verses include expressions like, "by grace you have been saved," "this not from yourselves," "it is the gift of God," "not by works," "so that no one can boast," "we are God's work," "created in Christ Jesus to do good works," "which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Also, the immediate context of the verse (2:1-10) forbids the idea that man has any positive role in his own salvation. Verses 1-3 describe our spiritual depravity before conversion, saying that we were dead in transgressions and sins, that we followed after the flesh, the world, and the devil. Then, verses 4-7 teach that it is by God's initiative – his love, grace, and kindness – that he has raised and seated us with Christ. We see expressions like, "his great love for us," "God...is rich in mercy," "[God] made us alive with Christ," "God raise us up with Christ," "[God]seated us with him," "that...he might show...his grace," "...expressed in his kindness to us," and so on. Verses 8-continue from the above and are clearly intended to ascribe all the power and initiative to God in our salvation. The verses include expressions like, "by grace you have been saved," "this not from yourselves," "it is the gift of God," "not by works," "so that no one can boast," "we are God's work," "created in Christ Jesus to do good works," "which God prepared in advance for us to do. "The whole passage emphasizes our depravity and inability, and then God's grace and God's work. We were altogether sinful and impotent, and every spiritual good produced in us comes from God's sovereign grace and power. So how do we suddenly get a faith that comes from "free will"? It would contradict the content and the intent of the entire section.
Finally, since the "grace" in salvation is by definition something that God gives and exercises, and not something produced or exercised by men, it would appear redundant and unnecessary to say that the "grace" is" not from yourselves." Vincent Cheung – Commentary on Ephesians
Ephesians 6:23 Peace be to the brothers and sisters, and love joined with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. that is, an increase of these graces, and of the exercise of them, is wished for; for otherwise these brethren had both these graces, faith and love; see Ephesians 1:15
Philippians 1:29 For you have been granted [from the Greek term charizomai, “to give as a gift. Literally means “to give, render, or grant graciously.”] [the privilege] for Christ’s sake not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer in His behalf.
Philippians 2:13 For it is [not your strength, but it is] God who is effectively at work in you, both to will and to work [that is, strengthening, energizing, and creating in you the longing and the ability to fulfill your purpose] for His good pleasure.
Philippians 3:9 and may be found in Him [believing and relying on Him], not having any righteousness of my own derived from [my obedience to] the Law and its rituals, but [possessing] that [genuine righteousness] which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith. Faith is an act of righteousness. We must have faith to be saved. Since we have no righteous of our own, said faith must come from, that is faith is caused by God.
Gee... I could go on.... I will stop
Sounds good. I had a lot of scripture to support my position and was about to unload.
Again, you had almost no scripture. Heck, I could give you a few verses that imply your position has merit. Maybe John 3:16, John 6:51, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:4,6
Really wished you had addressed John 1:12-13 that says we are saved by GOD's will and NOT ours.
Reverse our positions and I would have avoided that one I suppose.
You've conducted yourself with intelligence, poise and integrity. I am very appreciative of your thoughtfulness. Thank you. It been fun, though my brain isn't use to so much exercise. Thank you again.
Parting shot against Free Will:
Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]” AMP .... yet Free Will proposes that God is affected by one's self-determined decision to believe.
Ben Shapiro - What you want to believe you tend to believe and you tend to look for excuses to believe it.
... applies to me too
Dorothy Mae
Member
I weave it into the text and you cannot refute what I said in any case.
That is Not What it says.
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
They had to receive him
first. Nicodemus received him but was not yet born again. Receiving him is our choice and from this passage THAT comes first.
Now there is NO scripture that says Nicodemus was not yet born again when he received Jesus. But it makes no sense for Jesus to tell the man he must be born again if he was. This is the kind of thinking I’m urging you to so. Choose means you choose.
I feel the same way. Thank you!!
You pick out isolated verses out of context. Do you think God doesn’t care if we walk justly and love mercy? And you think God made him do that anyway so why quote this?
It doesn’t apply to me. I want to believe the truth and am prepared to change accordingly. Jesus promised some could know the truth but they must fulfill the conditions. I did.
I answered the question at least twice. See Job chap 38-40.
Why do you think God allows evil?
So, you contend that in heaven we may choose to sin?
Good..... need levity to ease the tension. Glad you took it the right way.
Re: Sin in the world
It's the answer God has given us. If you can tell me more as to why GOD allows sin, I am all ears. I predict no further answer than what I gave. Deut. 29:29
Aside: Your verse does not address the subject matter. God told Job to stand up and listen to him is irrelevant. Now I grant my statement was too general; that there are a small minority whom God loves dearly like Job.
Re: my term; "pond scum". You, as usual, have given no scripture to support you contention that man is not "pond scum". (Note: I grant "pond scum" not found in scripture. I used it as an ad hominem to show that God does think much of men, save those He puts in Christ.)
Unlike you for the most part, I will support my premises with scripture .... let's see ... hmmm
Premise 1: Vast majority of mankind will spend eternity in Hell ...worse than "pond scum" as the non-existence of "pond scum" is preferable.
Premise 2: Deuteronomy 18:12; Deuteronomy 25:16; psalm 5:5; Psalm 11:5; Proverbs 3:32 ... I could go on
Premise 3: Last supper John 15, 16,17
Conclusion: Man is "pond scum" save for those God cleaned up, whom He loves before the foundation of the earth and has imputed the righteousness of Christ
Dorothy Mae
Member
Premise 1 is a shallow understanding of what it means to believe. It is not correct. We do not decide one day to believe something. The mind does not work like that. It is like we do not decide one day to fall in love. The mind does not work like that. We consider evidence carefully and all the ramifications of deciding to accept it. It is not a choice of the will. Man does not work like that.
Premise 2: to be saved one must repent first. One can repent without believing. So that is also rather shallow.
Premise 3: the Bible does not tell us the source of faith and repentance as some refused to repent and it says so. Do you need the Scripture for that.."they refused to repent..." That was a choice of the will. You describe it as something God sovereignly does from above. That is not how it works and we see this is preaching of Jesus, John and the disciples. They did not ask God to drop repentance and believing on the people. They talked to the people.
You assume it was capricious sovereignty or plain meanness of God. But that is incorrect. They CHOSE not to believe. They CHOSE not to believe GOd could defeat the giants. And God blamed THEM, not himself, for not believing. Do you know those passages when they were afraid of the giants? You claim I do not quote scripture but I refer constantly to scripture but whole passages, not isolated verses.
"Take not thy Holy Spirit from me." Opps, God takes the Holy Spirit from people. Why? "Create in me a clean heart oh God." Why? Because the author had sinned and was not clean. Who cleans? God. Who sins and needs cleansing? man. "If we confess our sins God is faithful and just and will forgive." What must we do of our own free will? Confess. Why if that is all a game and God made us sin in the first place?
"To as many as received him (not the others) gave he the right to become the children of God." God did not make man receive him. Do you see that this is really unjust otherwise? How come we do not see this new heart in all believers and they are all kind and loving?
"To as many men as chose to receive him...." Their choice to accept the evidence and the conviction of the Holy Spirit or resist it. If Jesus had not prayed, Simon would have failed. But Jesus had to pray, not believe that God was sovereignly strengthening Simon. This verse supports my position not yours. In yours Jesus need not have prayed at all as God was going to make sure Simon was strong sans prayers. In fact, all prayer is useless and God is sovereignly doing what he determined to do from the foundation of the world, saving the lucky elect and damning the unlucky damned. Prayer is useless.
God grants but this does not say WHY. You assume there is no reason whatsoever. This is how reformed theology hinders anyone from understanding the ways of God. It says God does whatever for no perceivable reason and our choices play no role. No one can understand God in that theology.
You notice the MAN SETS HIS MIND ON THE FLESH, not God setting the man's mind on the flesh. There is more but you are obviously cutting and pasting someone else's arguments and I only have 1000 Characters. Why is faith pleasing to God when God made the person have faith?
This is not saving faith but faith once saved and it begs the question as to why Jesus was not irritated with God for the little faith his disciples had. It is God's fault a man does not believe, right? The man is totally innocent, right?
These are all cut out of passages where the author did not agree with the reformed thinking as it had not yet been invented and in order for them to work, they must be separated from the rest of what the author wrote. It is like we can thank God Jesus went to the cross but thanking Jesus is useless and foolish since God was totally controlling Jesus every minute. That seems to be your position. Do you ever thank anyone for anything? Why if it is God who is doing it all? Thanking anyone makes no sense in your theology.
Which is a main point. You cannot apply your theology to real life. You cannot as it does not fit. It is not truth and no one actually lives that theology. You thank man when you should only thank God. You are angry at man when you ought to only be angry at God. You assume you choose when you believe you are manipulated totally like a robot. You appreciate being loved and loving when your theology tells you that God made that happen and you neither chose to love someone nor did anyone ever choose to love you. God made them do it. Do you see that this is not real life?