- Oct 31, 2011
No, the Bible says sin is not imputed when there is no law. Calvinism says sin is imputed when there is no law.True. Calvinism and the bible are in agreement on this point.
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There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."
No, the Bible says sin is not imputed when there is no law. Calvinism says sin is imputed when there is no law.True. Calvinism and the bible are in agreement on this point.
How come He is not causing everyone to obey?I don't agree to the 1st premise and the 2nd.
Romans 7:18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh [my human nature, my worldliness—my sinful capacity]. .... 24 Wretched and miserable man that I am! Who will [rescue me and] set me free from this body of death [this corrupt, mortal existence]? 25 Thanks be to God [for my deliverance] through Jesus Christ our Lord! AMP
Premise 1: nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh
Premise 2: Thanks be to God [for my deliverance] through Jesus Christ
Conclusion: God causing Paul to obey, he's not capable of doing so
And yes some did not believe. "to as many as believed him...." Not all believed him. Now do you need a scripture to point out that some did not believe? This is a problem we have and I am considering a summary as we are reaching the conclusion of our exchange. You, like a lawyer, demand a cite from the law (scripture) or you claim I do not use any. But this is a kind of shutting down the mind and approaching like we were in a court room. So I am asking if you believe she did not receive him or believe him without me quoting a verse?God causing:
John 6:28 Then they asked Him, “What are we to do, so that we may habitually be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe
Not even evil right? How are those who are not in Christ functioning at all? How does anyone do anything, tie their shoes, hold down a job, etc. who are without him? Or do you think that he is manipulating the whole world even mass murders because "without him the rapists could not rape?" Is this what you think?God causing:
John 15:5 I am the Vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him bears much fruit, for [otherwise] apart from Me [that is, cut off from vital union with Me] you can do nothing.
"And the spirits of the prophets are subject to -----------------the prophets", not God. Do you know that verse. The spirit inside a prophet is under the control of the prophet, scripture does not say it is under the control of God.God causing:
Romans 12:6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.
"Choose this day whom you will serve" is God giving a choice to man. Is this for you a cruel joke because God is really choosing in the man for the man and there is no choice. Every single command God gives requires that a man can choose. Why did God give the Ten Commandments if man cannot choose to any of them or any evil or anything at all?God causing:
1 Corinthians 4:7 For who regards you as superior or what sets you apart as special? What do you have that you did not receive [from another]? And if in fact you received it [from God or someone else], why do you boast as if you had not received it [but had gained it by yourself]?
Free Will Causing ????????? .... just because you made a choice does not mean you were the cause of that choice. There is NO VERSES saying a person was the cause of anything in which God wasn't the ultimate cause save misinterpreted anthropomorphisms which can be show to be anthropomorphic as they contradict other verses if taken literally...NOT ONE!
All right then... I have to apply my expertise to the reality TV show in which a man selects his future wife from among 30ish beautiful women .... I am telling him God is the cause of his selection and the bachelor insists he selects his future bride based on his 'free will', said will not created by God but created in the neither world by the unknown. (Sarcasm)
Too lazy to proof read....excuse errors.
You quoted me that "through me you can do nothing" and claimed that means God is controlling everyone. Now He is controlling only the good we do and not the evil? Why? You claim we have no free will so why is not then God responsible for the choices, all of them, men make if no man has free choice?COMPLETE AND UTTER MISREPRESENTATION. I won't bother commenting further on that statement.
But you cannot explain why your theology attributes to Him all the choices man makes and yet not the choices to do wrong. And why are you insulted when in your view, it was God who willed in me to write that? Why that response towards me and not towards the God who is controlling me (in your view?MISREPRESENTATION. God is good. God is holy. I won't bother commenting further on that statement.
You don't see this as morally wrong? God determined they would forsake him and punished them for doing so and you are OK with that?And they foresaked God as God determined they world.
We have likely reached the end as I mentioned. You write God is holy and then "God determined (made it so) that they would forsake him" and punished them for doing so. I will write a summation of the problem I see and why we have reached the end.Nothing here again saying man did something independent of God. It's your assumption to fit you theology. GIVE ME A VERSE SAYING MAN DID 'X' AND GOD HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Give me a verse telling me about FREE WILL. Show me a verse where anything or anyone does anything and God had nothing to do with it... You can't because God says "For in him we live, and move, and have our being" Same for Isaiah 66:4.
You said: Ezekiel 20:21 But the children rebelled against Me. They did not walk in My statutes or carefully ...
... the children rebelled against me: They did not follow my decrees
Nothing here about saying God did not control the situation. Nothing here about them not following God's decree.
Find a verse where GOD say I want "X" to happen and then "X" did not happen. You got the "X" but no verse saying God didn't decree "X". You just assume you know God's will. Walking according to God's statues (laws) is different than God's decree/plan.
I explained this. There is God's sovereign will that I follow to the letter and God's commands/laws/moral will which I do not follow to the letter. When I say I stole John's pencil I did not follow God's moral will but I followed His decree.
Otherwise you have dualism (some power you have yet to prove) or deism.
RE: anthropomorphism ... https://www.gotquestions.org/anthropomorphism.html
Example: Isaiah 23:11 He has stretched out his hand over the sea; ... if you don't believe in anthropomorphism's then you believe God has a material hand.
Again, when God makes statements that contradict other statements He has made (Like stretching out his hand and He can't be seen) then we suggest the reason for the apparent contradiction is anthropomorphism. Now, I admit either side of the argument could abuse this. (Aside: I wish God didn't confuse things with anthropomorphisms or parables but He didn't ask my advice.
I did not mean to do a cheap shot and because we are on written communication tone cannot be communicated. But it was not meant to be that.I see what your trying to convey. Doesn't work the way you are trying to say it does. You apparently don't know the purpose of God (see, I can do cheap shots without substantiation too i.e. take what you say and make an unsubstantiated conclusion) which is the which helps explain this. Your theology is man-centered IMO, mine is not IMO.
Premise 1 is wrong. He does not need to learn from anyone. It is like saying the Mom does not learn anything from the infant teaching them. It is not because the infant cannot yet speak but because she is of superior ability and knowledge. And from the position of your theology, your cannot explain free will. From my position it is perfectly clear.Premise1: Romans 11:34 rhetorical question implying no one counsels God. God does not learn (which would contradict His immutability.
Premise 2: Free Will implies God learns from our FREE (not determined by God) will choices.
Conclusion: We tell God things He didn't know.
Aside: Free Wills usual response IMO ...well, that's a mystery (in other words, they can't explain it
The conclusion does not follow the premise. One can know without controlling. Sproul deeply underestimated God's abilities.Gee, I butchered that ... my bad. Try this:
Premise 1: GOD's only source of knowledge is Himself before creation.
Premise 2: From nothing, nothing comes. ex nihilo nihil fit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_comes_from_nothing
Premise 3: God knows all things
Premise 4: God is immutable (thus God always knew all things)
Conclusion: He must have determined the entire future down to the where each atom would be at any moment in time: thus, free will is a fantasy (for the source of His immutable, eternal knowledge at one time was limited to Himself.
Aside: R.C. Sproul states “If there is one single molecule in this universe running around loose, totally free of God’s sovereignty, then we have no guarantee that a single promise of God will ever be fulfilled.”
Whose fault is it that Cain killed Abel if in your view "God determined" every choice and Cain had no free will? You can can it is a mystery if you want.I am assuming you are saying it's not Cain's "fault" because God determined Cain would kill Able.
Problem is scripture shows that God loved Esau and gave him land. The hate came when his descendants became evil.Answer:
Cain is responsible because God says so. Now, I know that does not coincide with our concept of what how responsibility is associated with a person. We associate responsibility to be tied in with moral concepts which is a false premise. Consider the following:
1. Responsibility (what your calling fault) is defined as: Liable to be required to give account, as of one's actions or of the discharge of a duty or trust. Thus, the premise that responsibility is not to be associated with morality. (aside: that's not to say people don't often link responsibility to morality)
2. The example in the bible of Jacob being loved and Esau being hated before birth is questioned as to why God finds fault though neither had done anything morally wrong. Paul says they are responsible and side steps the question by saying "who are you to even ask the question". Romans 9
Unjust3. Examples where man doesn't do any wrong morally and yet held responsible ... such examples thus supporting the contention that responsibility can be assigned by God when one has not done something morally wrong.
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Never once is any man judged by the deeds of Adam. Not once. They are judged according to THEIR works it says.a) The assignment of guilt because of Adam to everyone. Ephesians 2:3; 1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die
There are complex spiritual laws that are just and have both the good and bad inherited. But this we accept without question. If parents are good, their children benefit. If parents are bad, their children suffer. God is not involved as we all see that. And please do not ask me for a scripture for what is obvious to all.b) Parents Action imputed to Children ... Exodus 34:7b visiting (avenging) the iniquity (sin, guilt) of the fathers upon the children and the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations [that is, calling the children to account for the sins of their fathers].”
c) Rulers actions affect nations. That all of a nation suffer and are punished for the sins of their rulers and representatives is taught throughout the whole history of God's dealings with Israel. A
signal instance of this was the punishment of all Israel because of the sins of Eli and his
sons. Compare 1 Samuel 3:11-14 with 1 Samuel 4:10-22.
d) Isaiah 63:17 O Lord, why have You made us [able] to err from Your ways and hardened our hearts to [reverential] fear of You? Return [to bless us] for Your servants’ sake, the tribes of Your heritage. [one of many examples of God’s sovereign will controlling the hearts of men for which men are held responsible]
And I answered them with scripture. God said the laws he was giving them were not too difficult. You say they were too difficult. It is not that difficult not to murder, not to steal, not to lie about the doings of others, not to covet what another man has and no on. This is pretty simple stuff and there is a scripture to back up what I said.This is a false premise as I showed with many verses of God's commands that we cannot keep. One example again: 1 Corinthians 15:34 “Awake to righteousness and sin not”.
Essentially it is a mystery in your view. You present scriptures like a lawyer but if one thinks about it with the mind God gave us so that we could love him with it too, you have no plausible explanation that does not accuse God of what we all know is wrong. You answer is essentially "the way I think is so."_____________
Re I said:
- Luke 7:14 “a dead man was being carried out…Then He came and touched the open coffin…and He said, ‘Young man, I say to you, arise.'” The dead man couldn’t hear, until Christ first gave His miraculous power to him.
That is not what I said. I said that spirits hear even if they have no physical ears. That is what I said.I gave the verse as another example of a command Christ/God gave (telling a dead person to become alive) that the man could not do on his own. This was in response to your request for examples of God giving commands that men cannot obey.
Your comments seem to believe a dead man can come to life without God causing it. Give me an example.
Well, we disagree as to interpretation.No, the Bible says sin is not imputed when there is no law. Calvinism says sin is imputed when there is no law.
I thought I would explain my claiming to belong to the „big boys” when it comes to engaging in calvinists theology. The reason is I don’t use quotes by theologians supporting my position. I don’t use links either. I don’t borrow any material AT ALL from other people’s thinking. All of what I write, 100%, comes from my own thinking/study/understanding. This means I don’t run to anyone (but God) when debating these things. So I’m in the league of those who alone have the goods to discuss. I don’t need other people to tell me how to answer.Well, we disagree as to interpretation.
Premise 1: We are born in sin (I gave verses)
Premise 2: The New born have themselves committed no sin
Conclusion: Imputation of sin to all
Premise 1: Penalty for sin is death
Premise 2: Some babies die
Conclusion: Imputation of sin to all
No sense continuing. We're made our cases. We disagree. Let it go.
Well, in heaven God is causing everyone one to obey. Assuming we have 'free will', God has taken it away. Which makes the statement that one cannot love God without 'free will' imply we won't love God in heaven.How come He is not causing everyone to obey?
You didn't address the verse as to the reason people believed. Stating some believe and some don't ignores the crux of the discussion which is what causes a person to believe. God chooses who to save (I can give 40ish verses) and of course those He does choose are not saved by God's determinative work (v. 29)And yes some did not believe. "to as many as believed him...." Not all believed him.
No, I agree, some did not believe. Again, the crux of the discussion is WHO DETERMINED/CAUSED them to believe. I say GOD, you say FREE WILL powered by I still don't know what. Some people believe, some don't; that's a valid observation but does not answer the question at hand (or maybe I don't know the question at hand.Now do you need a scripture to point out that some did not believe?
Yes, I supply scriptural evidence and you do not. Usually the jury goes with the evidence.This is a problem we have and I am considering a summary as we are reaching the conclusion of our exchange. You, like a lawyer, demand a cite from the law (scripture) or you claim I do not use any. But this is a kind of shutting down the mind and approaching like we were in a court room. So I am asking if you believe she did not receive him or believe him without me quoting a verse?
see preservation, Acts 17:28a, Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 1:3, Romans 11:36, Job 34:14-15 ... I can give verses for "Preservation" if needed. I don't see how this is germane ... but anywaysNot even evil right? How are those who are not in Christ functioning at all? How does anyone do anything, tie their shoes, hold down a job, etc. who are without him? Or do you think that he is manipulating the whole world even mass murders because "without him the rapists could not rape?" Is this what you think?
I don't know the verse you're referring to. God controls the prophet who controls the spirit. Just because verses don't state every item in a causal chain does mean it does not exist. I.E. the car steering wheel controls the movement of the tires. Not the statement doesn't say the driver controls the steering wheel ... the statement does not go into that depth. You can't prove a point because of potentially missing information; you can't assume."And the spirits of the prophets are subject to -----------------the prophets", not God. Do you know that verse. The spirit inside a prophet is under the control of the prophet, scripture does not say it is under the control of God.
A bunch of robots right? That was not my question. Why isn't God causing everyone here to obey if God is causing all actions people do? I mean, let me be kind. There is no answer, dear Fred. Just say "it is a mystery" or be more humble and say "I cannot explain it" because you cannot. There is no explanation from your theology.Well, in heaven God is causing everyone one to obey.
"The gifts and callings of God are without repentance." (He doesn't take away free will.)Assuming we have 'free will', God has taken it away. Which makes the statement that one cannot love God without 'free will' imply we won't love God in heaven.
What was the problem? ("Free willies" is pretty cute. I laughed.Aside: So many premises I believe to be false .... but the 'free willies' can figure out a solution to the problem I have shown. (Granted, this is a subset to the 'free willers".
That is saying "there is no answer" which is what I predicted. That is NOT an answer. "Don't ask" is not an answer. And while Calvinism refers to man a "pond scum" apparently, God literally said to Job, "Stand up and talk to me (gird up your loins or pull yourself together in modern language) like a man." He does not share your theological opinion of man.Reason for not causing everyone to obey on earth currently ... the answer God gives is in Job Chapter 38-40 (paraphrase: I AM, can you do this or that? you are pond scum, you are insolent to even inquire) ..
“Will the faultfinder contend with the Almighty?
Let him who disputes with God answer it.”
Notice Job is humble as to regarding his own importance which is correct. But he is not disrespectful of how God sees him. This is generally explained as repentance. As to my interaction with God, been there done that. The outcome is not what you might expect nor is the interview.3 Then Job replied to the Lord and said, 4 “Behold, I am of little importance and contemptible; what can I reply to You?
I lay my hand on my mouth. 5 “I have spoken once, but I will not reply again— Indeed, twice [I have answered], and I will add nothing further.”
and Romans 8:18-23.
.... so when you ask God this question I will be sitting in the back row
God does not see it that way nor did anyone who wrote the Bible. Calvinists see him that way but no one who knows Him does. It is rather insulting, like he is a particular in physics.Aside: God is the First Cause ... he has no antecedents... there is no "Why did God do this or that" save the answer "I AM".
Do you know what "believe" means to Jesus? It means if you believe you will say to that mount "move" and it will. This is not merely a mental ascent to a position.RE: 28 Then they asked Him, “What are we to do, so that we may habitually be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe
Jesus addressed this is the parable of the different soils. Do you know that parable or do I need to cut and paste if for you? He answered your question and in none of the people was God's decision the reason....none...not a one. God does not determine who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell before they were born. You have no verses to support this. What you have is isolated sentences that are twisted to accuse God of this injustice.You didn't address the verse as to the reason people believed. Stating some believe and some don't ignores the crux of the discussion which is what causes a person to believe. God chooses who to save (I can give 40ish verses) and of course those He does choose are not saved by God's determinative work (v. 29)
I will draw an simple picture:
No, faith is not a work. A work is something you DO, not something you THINK.Premise 1: We are not saved by works (i can give verses if you like... I assume we agree)
Premise 2: Faith/belief is a WORK, v. 29,
They did. Jesus himself said the problem was the soil itself, not the sower, nor the gardener, nor the waterer.Premise 3: The Guy doing the work is God v.29
Conclusion: The cause of the work of faith is God
No, I agree, some did not believe. Again, the crux of the discussion is WHO DETERMINED/CAUSED them to believe. I say GOD, you say FREE WILL powered by I still don't know what. Some people believe, some don't; that's a valid observation but does not answer the question at hand (or maybe I don't know the question at hand.
No you do not. You site scripture like a lawyer parsing it and ignoring other bits. But this is going no where. You like the scriptures you choose and ignore the rest.Yes, I supply scriptural evidence and you do not. Usually the jury goes with the evidence.
No you did not. Jesus explained what happens when the Gospel is presented to people and what happens and no where is God choosing which soil produces fruit. No where. This you have to ignore.Not only do I supply evidence that GOD's will determines who is saved, I provided scripture showing man's will IS NOT INVOLVED.
They had to receive him FIRST. That is what it says. Then they were born of the will of God AFTER they had received him. Nicodemus had received him and believed him to be the Messiah, but he was not yet born again.John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].
That is NOT what the scripture says. It says the spirit of the prophet is controlled by the prophet. But you have to change that to match your theology. This is what you have to do, change the scripture rather than scripture change your thinking.see preservation, Acts 17:28a, Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 1:3, Romans 11:36, Job 34:14-15 ... I can give verses for "Preservation" if needed. I don't see how this is germane ... but anyways
I don't know the verse you're referring to. God controls the prophet who controls the spirit.
We are not a car. And the Bible explains that the spirit of a man is subject to the man, not God. I know you believe God causes all decisions and all things and so it just has to be inserted. I tell you that you will have more mysteries from this view than if you would be open to reconsidering.Just because verses don't state every item in a causal chain does mean it does not exist. I.E. the car steering wheel controls the movement of the tires. Not the statement doesn't say the driver controls the steering wheel ... the statement does not go into that depth. You can't prove a point because of potentially missing information; you can't assume.
I cannot give you a verse that says that God hears all prayers everywhere. You cannot give a verse that says that God controls the choices you made yesterday and yet you believe it. IDo you not see that the Bible assumes we can think. When God says "choose, obey, thou shalt not, thou shalt, etc." is assume we can and that He is not controlling that. It is not a farce which you have to believe. Doesn't that feel uncomfortable to embrace the idea that the whole of human history is just a farce and God is controlling everything everyone does and punishing or rewarding them afterwards?Give a verse that explicitly says God does not control anything. So far, as best I recall, you gave one that I said was anthropomorphic and gave evidence that you did not refute.
No it does not. Man can freely choose to repent and believe or freely chose to reject the Gospel. There is no problem.Time to go on offense ... some questions for you to ponder:
- “Free will” makes the work of the Spirit of no effect in regards to initial salvation inconsistent with basic Christianity since we all know that the natural man is hostile to God and will not willingly submit to the humbling terms of the gospel for he can only choose according to the desires (love of darkness) of his fallen nature. (see Depravity)
No, but the answer is complex and takes more room than 1000 characters. If a parent permits their teen to drive their car and an accident ensures, it does not mean the wanted it to happen. In your view, how can one not say that the parent did not want that to happen?
- If you admit that God is permitting something, how can one not say God did not want it to happen? The answer is self-evident ... all things God permits are things He was willing to happen or He would have stopped it.
When you kidnap a man, your free will has cancelled his. Isn't this obvious?
- How is it that my 'free will' can cancel the "free will" of another? For example, I murder someone who otherwise would be saved in the future ... or Hilter kills millions, many of which given the chance would have turned to God. It seems that one person's "free will" can override the "free will" of another. So a "free will" proponent is perfectly OK with the ability of one man's ability to determine another man's eternal destiny, but not allowing God to do the same. Yet God let's it happen and thus determines that you do not have "free will".
Nothing is incapable of doing anything. That is a part of being nothing.
Premise 1: God knew who He would adopt before creation (the foundation of the earth)
Premise 2: I is not possible for even God to know what nothing will do in the future
Huh? To as many as received him gave he the power to become the sons of God. Whosoever will....
- If you believe Jesus accomplishes the exact same for ALL, and nothing more, this would mean that people, who end up in heaven, are not there because of what Jesus did... because... you also believe Jesus accomplished the exact same, and nothing less, for those who end up in hell... and they are not saved! This would mean that Jesus did not make the difference! Therefore you believe that those who are in heaven are there because of something other than Jesus... if they end up in heaven! If this is true then Jesus is only the means for those who save themselves!
No, God has made life such that we can reproduce without his help. I mean, elementary biology teaches this. We do not need a miracle to conceive a child. It is his will that living creatures can reproduce. He made it to run without his interference or support.
- If God knows that by creating you, you will end up in hell (and nothing can change what he knows), how has God not determined you will end up in hell by creating you? Note: God determined to bring you into existence and He upholds all things. He could have determined that you not be hell bound by not creating you. God could have created you so you would choose to belief if you believe He can do anything. If you admit God can do this then you are admitting God is the ultimate determiner.
This requires understanding the ways of God and they are more complex that nuclear physics. But let's give an example. A child has free will. The parent responds to the child. But the parent is not therefore a robot. Isn't that clear?
- If man has “free will” then God is a robot as He must respond to man’s input in regards to salvation. We are the cause for what God does. Although God can react theoretically in billions of ways, He will always react in the ‘best way’ but this is not so if man has ‘free will’ for he would determine what God does; in effect God is man’s robot. In other words, if God is to have the best possible outcome, how can he do so if He must rely on man’s “free will” to make decisions; leaving God with only 2nd, 3rd and 4th best outcomes.
How is God glorified by micromanaging everything. How is God glorified by a world of robots? How is God glorified by causing everything that happens and no can one even love him or do anything to please Him because he is forcing them? Is that really a world glorifying God?
- How is God glorified by events that are determined by man as the initial cause? Note: God does not share his glory with anyone.
Do not begin to think you are better than God. It is a mistake. I understand why God did what He did and the reasons are very good and rational. But it would be another post by itself and I am not sure you would accept it since you think he is forcing people to make the choices they do. If one goes to God for understanding, one must believe that He is morally good. If that is not there, there is no foundation to understand how particular situations.
- If God knew Adam would disobey, is one to believe there is no way God could have prevented Adam’s disobedience? God couldn’t have given Adam a sterner warning, visions or whatever it took?
How do you know there was not? Enoch was so good he did not die. But the Biblical answer is "sin entered the world." If God wants us to do good, why was there ever an evil person?
- If “free will” is true, why has there never been a sinless human?
I can answer all of them but the number of characters is limited. I have to say my heart rejoiced when I read that you are going on the offensive (not mean being offensive at all but are very much to the discussion.) I can take it. But I do have an advantage, when I first encountered reformed theology some years ago and was in debate, I asked God when I got stuck. Since then I do not need to do so. He usually gave the same answer anyway.
I could go on if you like
- For those who believe in ‘eternal security’ and ‘free will’; does ‘eternal security’ nullify ‘free will’ since I not change my mind as to believe/not believe?
- How does “free will” for all without exception account for those who will never hear the gospel all thus cannot be saved?
- Why would God willing choose to send the gospel to someone he knows will reject it, thus causing a worse situation due to the penalty of unbelief?
- “Free will” would make prayer for someone’s salvation irrelevant. “Free will” would make the influence of family and Christians irrelevant. Statistically, there is a definite correlation between believing parents and the probability of believing off spring which is contrary to the ‘free will’ postulate.
- How can God know what you are going to do in the future if via "free will" He has caused your actions to be self-determined? Foreknowledge requires antecedents.
- Could God have created you differently and thus change you choices?
- If “free will” be free from God’s determination of anything we do, this is deism. To think that God is in control and you can still do what you want is a contradiction. To deny God determined any event that would modify your choice is contrary to empirical evidence.
- How can God get all He desires to happen if man’s free will determines events? Does the wisdom of the inferior who at one time was nothing guide the superior?
- From a 'free will' perspective, how does giving man: free will" absolve God of responsibility? If one grants that God gives man self-determination (free will) and acknowledges God knows that that person will not use his 'free will' to believe salvificly, how does that absolve God responsibility for evil. I give a man a gun knowing he will use it to murder and yet I am not responsible for evil ... how can this be
Me too. (I mean the editor, not you.)Aside: The forum editor is giving me issues (or vice versa)
Again, when it come the WHY God did X or Y you will have to ask him. I already gave God's partial answer with Job chapter 38,39 and 40 .. and Romans 8:18-23 .... you will have to ask him for further information.Why did God give the Ten Commandments if man cannot choose to any of them or any evil or anything at all?
Technical correction .. .I say we don't have FREE WILL the way you define it.You claim we have no free will so why is not then God responsible for the choices, all of them, men make if no man has free choice?
LOL ... hey I see where you are coming from.And why are you insulted when in your view, it was God who willed in me to write that? Why that response towards me and not towards the God who is controlling me (in your view?
Answered previously ...hey, from man's point of view I would agree but the bible contradicts man natural point of view. You avoid the crux of the question. You dwell on your perceived negative effects of the question at hand as a proof. If God controls ALL THINGS is true then the effects, whatever they be must follow. You shouldn't use the effects that don't appeal to you as proof that the cause is true or false. Use scripture or logic like 1+1=2 to disprove my point.ou don't see this as morally wrong? God determined they would forsake him and punished them for doing so and you are OK with that?
No it does not. Man can freely choose to repent and believe or freely chose to reject the Gospel. There is no problem.
Sounds good. I had a lot of scripture to support my position and was about to unload.I will write a summation of the problem I see and why we have reached the end.
You've conducted yourself with intelligence, poise and integrity. I am very appreciative of your thoughtfulness. Thank you. It been fun, though my brain isn't use to so much exercise. Thank you again.I did not mean to do a cheap shot and because we are on written communication tone cannot be communicated. But it was not meant to be that.
I weave it into the text and you cannot refute what I said in any case.Sounds good. I had a lot of scripture to support my position and was about to unload.
Again, you had almost no scripture
That is Not What it says.. Heck, I could give you a few verses that imply your position has merit. Maybe John 3:16, John 6:51, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:4,6
Really wished you had addressed John 1:12-13 that says we are saved by GOD's will and NOT ours.
I feel the same way. Thank you!!Reverse our positions and I would You've conducted yourself with intelligence, poise and integrity. I am very appreciative of your thoughtfulness. Thank you. It been fun, though my brain isn't use to so much exercise. Thank you again.
You pick out isolated verses out of context. Do you think God doesn’t care if we walk justly and love mercy? And you think God made him do that anyway so why quote this?Parting shot against Free Will:
Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]” AMP .... yet Free Will proposes that God is affected by one's self-determined decision to believe.
It doesn’t apply to me. I want to believe the truth and am prepared to change accordingly. Jesus promised some could know the truth but they must fulfill the conditions. I did.Ben Shapiro - What you want to believe you tend to believe and you tend to look for excuses to believe it.
... applies to me too
I answered the question at least twice. See Job chap 38-40.I mean, let me be kind. There is no answer, dear Fred. Just say "it is a mystery" or be more humble and say "I cannot explain it" because you cannot. There is no explanation from your theology.
So, you contend that in heaven we may choose to sin?"The gifts and callings of God are without repentance." (He doesn't take away free will.)
Good..... need levity to ease the tension. Glad you took it the right way.What was the problem? ("Free willies" is pretty cute. I laughed.
It's the answer God has given us. If you can tell me more as to why GOD allows sin, I am all ears. I predict no further answer than what I gave. Deut. 29:29That is saying "there is no answer" which is what I predicted. "Don't ask" is not an answer.
Aside: Your verse does not address the subject matter. God told Job to stand up and listen to him is irrelevant. Now I grant my statement was too general; that there are a small minority whom God loves dearly like Job.And while Calvinism refers to man a "pond scum" apparently, God literally said to Job, "Stand up and talk to me (gird up your loins or pull yourself together in modern language) like a man." He does not share your theological opinion of man.
Premise 1 is a shallow understanding of what it means to believe. It is not correct. We do not decide one day to believe something. The mind does not work like that. It is like we do not decide one day to fall in love. The mind does not work like that. We consider evidence carefully and all the ramifications of deciding to accept it. It is not a choice of the will. Man does not work like that.Premise 1: a subset of "FREE WILL" is defined as the ability to self-determine whether to believe or not believe in regards to salvation
Premise 2: To be saved one must have FAITH and REPENTANCE
Premise 3: Infallible scripture tells us the source of FAITH and REPENTANCE is God and therefore not man
Premise 4: for the sake of argument, if one can prove one does not have FREE WILL in regards to salvation then one can assume we don't have free will for anything else
Premise 5: Dorothy Mae agrees to premise 1, 2, 3 and 4 if premise 3 can be proven by scripture.
You assume it was capricious sovereignty or plain meanness of God. But that is incorrect. They CHOSE not to believe. They CHOSE not to believe GOd could defeat the giants. And God blamed THEM, not himself, for not believing. Do you know those passages when they were afraid of the giants? You claim I do not quote scripture but I refer constantly to scripture but whole passages, not isolated verses.Proof of Premise 3 follows ( will get lazy and only quote verses showing the source of faith is God, not man:
Deuteronomy 29:2 Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his servants, and to all his land; 3 the great trials [of Pharaoh] which your eyes have seen, the signs and those great wonders. 4 Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart and mind to understand, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.
"Take not thy Holy Spirit from me." Opps, God takes the Holy Spirit from people. Why? "Create in me a clean heart oh God." Why? Because the author had sinned and was not clean. Who cleans? God. Who sins and needs cleansing? man. "If we confess our sins God is faithful and just and will forgive." What must we do of our own free will? Confess. Why if that is all a game and God made us sin in the first place?Jeremiah 24:7 I will give them a heart to know Me, [understanding fully] that I am the Lord; and they will be My people, and I will be their God, for they will return to Me with their whole heart.
"To as many as received him (not the others) gave he the right to become the children of God." God did not make man receive him. Do you see that this is really unjust otherwise? How come we do not see this new heart in all believers and they are all kind and loving?
- Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart [a new heart], and put a new spirit within them. I will take from them the heart of stone, and will give them a heart of flesh [that is responsive to My touch], 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances and do them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
"To as many men as chose to receive him...." Their choice to accept the evidence and the conviction of the Holy Spirit or resist it. If Jesus had not prayed, Simon would have failed. But Jesus had to pray, not believe that God was sovereignly strengthening Simon. This verse supports my position not yours. In yours Jesus need not have prayed at all as God was going to make sure Simon was strong sans prayers. In fact, all prayer is useless and God is sovereignly doing what he determined to do from the foundation of the world, saving the lucky elect and damning the unlucky damned. Prayer is useless.Ezekiel 36:26–27 A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. [God controlling our love of him]
Luke 17:5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” It would seem that at a minimum God can be the cause of a portion of our faith. More likely, unless faith was totally given by God, the apostles would not have made this statement.
Luke 22:32 Jesus said to Peter, "I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail". He did not ask Peter to maintain his faith so that God could continue to favor him, but it is up to God whether a person's faith fails.
John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” Clearly this verse defines faith as a work. Thus faith must originate from God since God’s grace does not include man works (Galatians 5:2).
God grants but this does not say WHY. You assume there is no reason whatsoever. This is how reformed theology hinders anyone from understanding the ways of God. It says God does whatever for no perceivable reason and our choices play no role. No one can understand God in that theology.
- John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh conveys no benefit [it is of no account]. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life [providing eternal life]… 65 And He was saying, “This is the reason why I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him [that is, unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.”
You notice the MAN SETS HIS MIND ON THE FLESH, not God setting the man's mind on the flesh. There is more but you are obviously cutting and pasting someone else's arguments and I only have 1000 Characters. Why is faith pleasing to God when God made the person have faith?Romans 8:5 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. – faith is pleasing to God and part of God’s law,
This is not saving faith but faith once saved and it begs the question as to why Jesus was not irritated with God for the little faith his disciples had. It is God's fault a man does not believe, right? The man is totally innocent, right?Romans 12:3b as God has apportioned to each a degree of faith [and a purpose designed for service]. Note: It is God doing the apportioning
These are all cut out of passages where the author did not agree with the reformed thinking as it had not yet been invented and in order for them to work, they must be separated from the rest of what the author wrote. It is like we can thank God Jesus went to the cross but thanking Jesus is useless and foolish since God was totally controlling Jesus every minute. That seems to be your position. Do you ever thank anyone for anything? Why if it is God who is doing it all? Thanking anyone makes no sense in your theology.Romans 15:13
1 Corinthians 2:4
1 Corinthians 2:5
1 Corinthians 2:12-16
1 Corinthians 4:7
End of Part 1